Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)

[EvilDM]

When I make a character I usually already have an image of them in my head and then pick the class that best represents that, no matter what it is. If Fighter fits my needs then it's what I'll use.

[Dreadn4ught]

I'm going to respond to this the same way I did to the "why play a rogue?" thread: You play a fighter so your character can look completely awesome. Fluffing attacks to have yourself jumping off high objects, swinging a keen falchion (1/4 crit chance ftw!) over your head and cleaving an ice giant in two can get pretty awesome.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm going to respond to this the same way I did to the "why play a rogue?" thread: You play a fighter so your character can look completely awesome. Fluffing attacks to have yourself jumping off high objects, swinging a keen falchion (1/4 crit chance ftw!) over your head and cleaving an ice giant in two can get pretty awesome.

Not when, even with a crit, you deal less than a tenth of your opponent's hit points... then the rogue comes up and flanks opposite you and drops it in a single hit. Or the Wizard decides he's bored now and makes it fall over dead. Or the cleric gets bored and uses Holy Word to insta-gib it with no save.

The problem is that the Fighter is supposed to be able to fight... and yet every other class in the game, including the pencil-necked wizard can fight better than he can.

[WitchSlayer]

Shouldn't this be in the 3e/3.5e/pathfinder forum? Because apart from those systems (Although in Pathfinder you can play an archer fighter pretty effectively) there are plenty of reasons to play fighter.

[Eldariel]

How I make Fighter enjoyable?

Well:
- I take a couple of levels of Ranger to open up more useful class skills, and to get free Rapid Shot without needing to waste feats.
- I take a level of Barbarian for Fast Movement/Pounce depending on how much damage I wish to be able to do.
- I take Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant.
- I take Zhentarim Fighter Substitution Levels.
- I spend my feats mostly on tactical feats (Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Elusive Target) with generic boosts (such as Knowledge Devotion).
- I use the Thug-variant which gives me more skillpoints in exchange for my level 1 feat.

What I'm left with is a character that can:
- Competently use any two-handed weapon or a bow.
- Decent area control capability with any reach weapon.
- Solid damage in straight-up stand-up fighting and while charging.
- Capable of intimidating most weaker opponents into submission.
- Decent skill access allowing for actually interesting skill use.

Of course, I'm multiclassing, I'm still missing some key proficiencies and I could do much better as a Warblade. And I wouldn't need to multiclass then. But if I was forced to play a Fighter I'd take what Fighter does well and do all of it reasonably and get a rounded Fighter with lots of useful abilities and even competency in Bull Rushing and Tripping (yes, really!) in addition to straight-up fighting and charging. Oh, and intimidating. What a multitalented Fighter. And one with some skillpoints to boot, and ability to use two different classes of weapons somewhat reasonably!

[The Glyphstone]

Not when, even with a crit, you deal less than a tenth of your opponent's hit points... then the rogue comes up and flanks opposite you and drops it in a single hit. Or the Wizard decides he's bored now and makes it fall over dead. Or the cleric gets bored and uses Holy Word to insta-gib it with no save.

The problem is that the Fighter is supposed to be able to fight... and yet every other class in the game, including the pencil-necked wizard can fight better than he can.

It's kinda unfair when you optimize the Rogue to be capable of oneshotting a Frost Giant (133 HP) in a single attack, but stick your Fighter with such an awful Strength he can only do 13 HP with a Falchion Crit...

Fighters can be Uberchargers as well as anyone else, and Uberchargers beat out anything else in the game on raw damage except a max-tooled blaster-caster. The problem isn't that they can't fight, it's that they can only fight. Which, if that's all you want to do, is no problem at all.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm going to respond to this the same way I did to the "why play a rogue?" thread: You play a fighter so your character can look completely awesome. Fluffing attacks to have yourself jumping off high objects, swinging a keen falchion (1/4 crit chance ftw!) over your head and cleaving an ice giant in two can get pretty awesome.

So, a Tiger Claw focused warblade? Because swinging a keen falchion and jumping around pretty much screams Tiger Claw.

[Coidzor]

The problem isn't that they can't fight, it's that they can only fight. Which, if that's all you want to do, is no problem at all.

Funnily enough though, I don't think anyone's said that was all they wanted to do.

[Engine]

So I guess I'm asking you guys how you avoid getting bored playing a fighter? What's the appeal that keeps you playing one session after session?

A good DM. The Fighter is, at least for me, a boring class. Really boring.
Me and my group will participate in a PF tournament this week-end using pre-gen characters: a Sorcerer, a Rogue, a Cleric and a Fighter. No one wanted to play the Fighter. The pre-gen characters are really unoptimized so isn't a problem of raw power, but of mere fun.

But. If you have a low-op group and the DM is a capable one, one that let every character shine and use the backstory you wrote to tell a great story then you could play a Fighter and have fun.
I hate WotC and Paizo for that: I love Fighters, but they designed them in a really awful way.

Anyway if you want to play a mundane class who goes in melee and dish out a good damage (and you play PF) you could use something else: a Skirmisher Ranger or a Trapper Ranger could be a good frontliner, and have more tools under their belt other than "I stab with my sword".

[Seerow]

It's kinda unfair when you optimize the Rogue to be capable of oneshotting a Frost Giant (133 HP) in a single attack, but stick your Fighter with such an awful Strength he can only do 13 HP with a Falchion Crit...

Fighters can be Uberchargers as well as anyone else, and Uberchargers beat out anything else in the game on raw damage except a max-tooled blaster-caster. The problem isn't that they can't fight, it's that they can only fight. Which, if that's all you want to do, is no problem at all.

Well it's not JUST that all they can do is fight. They are lacking in fighting, just not in damage. Fighting is not just all damage. For example I'd consider Fighter's far better if they had more mobility. They also typically last the ability to inflict status effects/use save or sucks, and are generally restricted to attacking a single enemy at a time (cleave is pretty situational, whirlwind is huge on prerequisites, and that's pretty much it as far as multitarget abilities for a fighter goes).

Also, they're pretty much restricted to only ranged OR melee combat (typically melee since ranged can be done better from other classes, like Ranger), so if the fight becomes focused at a range the Fighter isn't built for, he gets to sit useless. Last, they lack any meaningful access to the action economy. They have nothing they are able to do as a swift action, or immediate action, and even their standard action options are pretty sub par. They pretty much need to stand in one place and full attack to be effective, which is a huge failing.



There's also the complaints that they're boring and have no real options or any sort of resource to manage, but that is something that is more a matter of taste than balance.

[Coidzor]

I hate WotC and Paizo for that: I love Fighters, but they designed them in a really awful way.

So what is it that you love then?

[Zonugal]

I tend to be able to enjoy fighters but I have to throw on a lot of alternate class features. It is like a salad in a lot of ways, the extras like dressing or croutons make a meal.

Generally a fighter properly utilizing the dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim and thug acfs is enjoyable as they bring much more utility than a standard fighter. You can take your average warrior and transform him into a mercenary who can track down his mark, kick down the door and smash their face into the wall.

The joy is found in amplifying that level of extraordinary, mundane power. Instead of throwing around spells and such you are simply a scary dude who will get to you & destroy you. This is fun found in grounding a character like that.

Rogue: "So how do we do this job?"
Wizard: "Well I could teleport us in, and throw around some orbs or summon a monster?"
Fighter: "Or we could kick in the door and break some faces?"
Rogue: "That's every solution to you."
Fighter: "Its every solution to me because it is always awesome."

[The Glyphstone]

I tend to be able to enjoy fighters but I have to throw on a lot of alternate class features. It is like a salad in a lot of ways, the extras like dressing or croutons make a meal.

Generally a fighter properly utilizing the dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim and thug acfs is enjoyable as they bring much more utility than a standard fighter. You can take your average warrior and transform him into a mercenary who can track down his mark, kick down the door and smash their face into the wall.

The joy is found in amplifying that level of extraordinary, mundane power. Instead of throwing around spells and such you are simply a scary dude who will get to you & destroy you. This is fun found in grounding a character like that.

Rogue: "So how do we do this job?"
Wizard: "Well I could teleport us in, and throw around some orbs or summon a monster?"
Fighter: "Or we could kick in the door and break some faces?"
Rogue: "That's every solution to you."
Fighter: "Its every solution to me because it is always awesome."

When all you have is a +5 Eager Wounding Minotaur Greathammer of Impact, everything looks like a soft and defenseless skull?

[Zonugal]

When all you have is a +5 Eager Wounding Minotaur Greathammer of Impact, everything looks like a soft and defenseless skull?

There is nothing wrong with speaking softly and carrying a big stick.

[The Glyphstone]

There is nothing wrong with speaking softly and carrying a big stick.

Though speaking loudly and carrying a very big stick is better.

[Zonugal]

Though speaking loudly and carrying a very big stick is better.

Someone's over-compensating...

[Bluepaw]

One of my favorite characters is a half-dwarf, single-classed fighter -- specifically, a brawler fighter. It's a build from the 4e book Martial Power 2, but there's no reason you can't port it into other systems. MP2 provides some powers, but it's the style that's incredibly fun.

You wield a one-handed weapon with no shield (so, my guy's got a versatile weapon, that is, a warhammer, plus a couple of throwing axes on his belt), so he can grab/drag/throw/pummel enemies with his free hand. 4e has with a bunch of powers that let this actually be mechanically good, but with a good DM or a combat system that rewards roleplaying (not sure how Pathfinder is, I know Story Engine does it well), you can apply these things in other systems.

Things brawlers are good at:

-Punching. Muthatruckin. Monsters. How often have you wanted to do this? Trust me, it is way satisfying to get up in some cultist of Orcus' ritual-performing face and save the day by laying him out with a belt in the gob.

That's enough, in my opinion, to make it hugely fun, but they also:

-Grab and drag enemies, then leave them prone (giving them a control function -- that coveted martial controller at last?)
-Thow/push enemies into other enemies, doing damage and stunning effects -- more control
-Attack multiple adjacent enemies: hit one with the weapon, one with a fist
-Use improvised weapons: broken bottles, mystic statuettes that the rest of the party is going to be real cheesed if you use to stove in the face of a vampire, stockings full of GP...
-Drink copiously and start bar fights. Seriously. The 4e build, at least, has some feats for crowd-fighting with shifting and enemies doing damage to each other, and again, with a good DM this stuff can all port around.
-Bonuses to intimidate and streetwise

And, as loads of people above have mentioned for fighters of all stripes, they can:

-Roleplay like a boss. With a brawler you'll have those over-serious characters jealous in no time.

[The Glyphstone]

Someone's over-compensating...

*thwacks Zonugal with a Monkey Gripped Greathammer*

[Provengreil]

Well it's not JUST that all they can do is fight. They are lacking in fighting, just not in damage. Fighting is not just all damage. For example I'd consider Fighter's far better if they had more mobility. They also typically last the ability to inflict status effects/use save or sucks, and are generally restricted to attacking a single enemy at a time (cleave is pretty situational, whirlwind is huge on prerequisites, and that's pretty much it as far as multitarget abilities for a fighter goes).

Also, they're pretty much restricted to only ranged OR melee combat (typically melee since ranged can be done better from other classes, like Ranger), so if the fight becomes focused at a range the Fighter isn't built for, he gets to sit useless. Last, they lack any meaningful access to the action economy. They have nothing they are able to do as a swift action, or immediate action, and even their standard action options are pretty sub par. They pretty much need to stand in one place and full attack to be effective, which is a huge failing.



There's also the complaints that they're boring and have no real options or any sort of resource to manage, but that is something that is more a matter of taste than balance.

emphasis mine.

By and large I agree with you, but I would like to simply point out that fighters have access to these, most players just never think to use them because that's not what they've identified as the best. sundered spell component pouches, disarmed weapons, and prone opponents are all forms of debuffs. spells can be more effective at some of this, but magic has like 4 different fog engines, so I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. not to mention, it is in fact possible to put up meaningful armor class and absorb a lot more damage than your HP by not getting hit, few people bother though because it gets in the way of damage.

10 + 1-3(dex)+13(+5 mithral full plate)+9(+5 tower shield)+5(ring of protection+5)+5(amulet of natural armor+5) = 43-45 for a little more than 200,000gp, meaning level 15, and with 13 INT combat expertise can push this even higher. mature adult blue dragon gets +24, so he needs a natural 20 to hit you(I know dragons don't fight this way, it was just the first CR appropriate statblock i found).

So yes, I'd say fighters have their options provided 2 things:
1. ToB is not in use. if it is, there is very little reason to use anything else for melee.
2. you let yourself have more than a couple tricks. look into a jack of all trades, but with combat styles instead of skills. i think fighters do this better than anyone else, given that 1 is in effect.

[Coidzor]

Though speaking loudly and carrying a very big stick is better.

Someone's over-compensating...

DID SOMEBODY ORDER A LARGE HAM!?

FLY MY HAWKMEN, FLY!

[The Glyphstone]

emphasis mine.

By and large I agree with you, but I would like to simply point out that fighters have access to these, most players just never think to use them because that's not what they've identified as the best. sundered spell component pouches, disarmed weapons, and prone opponents are all forms of debuffs. spells can be more effective at some of this, but magic has like 4 different fog engines, so I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. not to mention, it is in fact possible to put up meaningful armor class and absorb a lot more damage than your HP by not getting hit, few people bother though because it gets in the way of damage.

10 + 1-3(dex)+13(+5 mithral full plate)+9(+5 tower shield)+5(ring of protection+5)+5(amulet of natural armor+5) = 43-45 for a little more than 200,000gp, meaning level 15, and with 13 INT combat expertise can push this even higher. mature adult blue dragon gets +24, so he needs a natural 20 to hit you(I know dragons don't fight this way, it was just the first CR appropriate statblock i found).

The problem is that when you do that, your damage output is nil (as you pointed out yourself) - at which point, there's very little reason for any monster of above animal intelligence...and even some smarter animals...to spend more than one round flailing away at you, when they can just walk past and munch on the softer people who are actually hurting them.

Roleplaying taunts can help, but without a tripping/control build or Knight levels to mechanically force them to attack, it starts to strain disbelief heavily when enemies always go for the most difficult and least threatening opponent.

[Seerow]

emphasis mine.

By and large I agree with you, but I would like to simply point out that fighters have access to these, most players just never think to use them because that's not what they've identified as the best. sundered spell component pouches, disarmed weapons, and prone opponents are all forms of debuffs. spells can be more effective at some of this, but magic has like 4 different fog engines, so I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. not to mention, it is in fact possible to put up meaningful armor class and absorb a lot more damage than your HP by not getting hit, few people bother though because it gets in the way of damage.

Sundering component pouches is useful until it becomes a widespread tactic and mages start buying hundreds of them, because they're dirt cheap and weigh almost nothing, so why not? Tripping is a form of control that is both pretty overrated, and becomes less useful as you start running into things larger than you with more legs and more strength. Disarming isn't even worth considering since most of the things you fight don't even care about weapons.

I'll address AC below.

10 + 1-3(dex)+13(+5 mithral full plate)+9(+5 tower shield)+5(ring of protection+5)+5(amulet of natural armor+5) = 43-45 for a little more than 200,000gp, meaning level 15, and with 13 INT combat expertise can push this even higher. mature adult blue dragon gets +24, so he needs a natural 20 to hit you(I know dragons don't fight this way, it was just the first CR appropriate statblock i found).

All that AC, and you know what happens? The enemy ignores you, as Glyph said. Alternatively, the enemy hits you with a touch attack (oops there goes almost all of that armor). Or he hits you with a reflex save. Or a Will save. Both of which are going to be abysmal.

I didn't mention a Fighter's defense, but I meant to when I started writing my first post. Fighter's defenses aren't the best in the game. They're among the worst. They have **** for saves, and no non-armor defenses at all. Part of that ties into mobility (best defense is not being able to be hit by the target), often a mage's best defense is just flying above the melee guy. But caster's have other defenses. Archers? Sorry, Wind Wall. Elemental attacks? Sorry high resistance or immunity to it. Most status effects? There's a spell for immunity to that. Even against melee attacks, AC is typically a pretty bad way to avoid them, and it's far more efficient to stack up miss chances and concealment, which the fighter lacks access to.

Fighters have decent HP. By decent I mean 3 hp per level more than the worst in the game. It'll make the difference of an extra round on the front lines, maybe. They have decent AC, but the majority of AC bonuses would be coming from gear, not the Fighter, so about the only point you could give it is for having access to full plate. But every sort of defense that's actually meaningful? Fighter's don't have it, other people do. That's part of the problem.

So yes, I'd say fighters have their options provided 2 things:
1. ToB is not in use. if it is, there is very little reason to use anything else for melee.
2. you let yourself have more than a couple tricks. look into a jack of all trades, but with combat styles instead of skills. i think fighters do this better than anyone else, given that 1 is in effect.

I actually agree with the jack of all trades vision of the fighter. (Indeed, my personal fighter fix includes giving the fighter basically extra sets of fighter bonus feats he can swap between at will to increase his diversity), but the problem is that it's simply not enough. You could give the Fighter every fighter bonus feat in existence simultaneously and his power level wouldn't actually budge all that much. Throw in the epic Fighter Bonus feats and he might make it to a high tier 4, maybe very low tier 3. But the point is that the Fighter needs more than feats. Feats simply don't provide options that are good enough to compete with what people actually get as class features.

[Coidzor]

Feats simply don't provide options that are good enough to compete with what people actually get as class features.

Well, if you wanted to outdo a Soulborn at Incarnumancy, there's a slight case to be made there, but beyond that...

V: I'm so glad I went to that page. Last time I was there, they didn't have anything about Henry 8.0.

[Zonugal]

DID SOMEBODY ORDER A LARGE HAM!?

FLY MY HAWKMEN, FLY!

I love ham! Its like its Christmas day, yay!!!

[Explodingcube]

Personally, I love playing fighters. The idea that I don't need magic or divine and ragerific powers makes me feel like more skill is involved. Now, I have been known to use archetypes, but I think that it's a lot better than just multiclassing out.

[Tyndmyr]

Play a warblade, crusader, or druid.

/thread

This. However, a couple of levels of fighter are a common addition to a lot of builds. Feats are handy toys, everyone always wants more.

[navar100]

Possibly because the Fighter ran the kingdom into the ground with his poor ability to listen to good advisers over bad ones and make good appointments to positions of power under him, lack of knowledge of good governance, and susceptibility to magical domination.

(For reference see JaronK's "Leadership Mechanics in D&D" over on BG)

You can't just throw gold at a kingdom and expect it to be ruled well, and that's about the only thing the Fighter has, well, other than having exotic pets and being able to scare people into doing what he wants while he's breathing down their neck.

It does give the next campaign's adventurers job security though, I must admit...

I don't take JaronK's word on fighters for anything. Long story.

You don't need high skill scores in everything. If you really want them, you can get them easier in Pathfinder. In any case, argument about the game mechanics of fighters have been done to death. I've heard it all before, and it's still garbage. Those who think the fighter sucks donkey aren't going to change their mind no matter what any differing opinion is offered. Case in point right here since I wasn't really talking about the game mechanics at all but rather roleplaying ideas to make playing a fighter more interesting, to get the feel of what it is to be a fighter. Immerse yourself into the role so that you're not just some guy with a pointy stick.

Whether one is having hysterical temper tamtrums because the wizard is casting Gate, Force Cage, Glitterdust, and Rope Trick is something else altogether.

[Engine]

So what is it that you love then?

I love the fluff, I dislike the crunch.

[Coidzor]

Whether one is having hysterical temper tamtrums because the wizard is casting Gate, Force Cage, Glitterdust, and Rope Trick is something else altogether.

Indeed. Something that has nothing to do with what I said. So I must admit I'm rather confused as to why you felt the need to point this out.

Besides, Rope Trick is generally something that DMs get antsy about, not Fighters.

You don't need high skill scores in everything. If you really want them, you can get them easier in Pathfinder.

No, but it certainly helps to actually have skill ranks. And your run of the mill plate-posteriored goblinthwacker is decidedly lacking in skillpoints to pay even lip service to such things that make Kinging easier or improve the quality of one's Kinging.

Well, unless they want to take after Robert Baratheon, anyway.

Generally lacks the stats to really back up most roleplay along those lines anyway, unless one wants to sacrifice one's combat abilities entirely

I wasn't really talking about the game mechanics at all but rather roleplaying ideas to make playing a fighter more interesting, to get the feel of what it is to be a fighter. Immerse yourself into the role so that you're not just some guy with a pointy stick.

If you're going to roleplay, it's generally best to actually have something in the character to back it up if the system has things to account for it. And I was pointing out the logical conclusion of such an individual actually obtaining the throne as a tongue-in-cheek observation anyway.

Seriously. A man who is not very persuasive, cunning, or wise. A man who has no actual training in leadership or knowledge of political intrigue and how to use it or at least defend against it or, indeed, kinging in general. Aye, a man whose main recommendation to the position is murdering people in the face lots.

That's not a recipe for anything good for the kingdom, unless he's a puppet and whoever controls his strings is either altruistic or has enlightened self-interest. And between the low will save and sense motive... He's going to be someone's puppet.

If we want to address the real meat and potatoes of your post about roleplay to covereth the fighter's flanks, well, from what I've read of the OP's posts, it doesn't seem like the arena of roleplay is really what's at issue here.

I love the fluff, I dislike the crunch.

What fluff in particular is that?

[Engine]

What fluff in particular is that?

From PFSRD

Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.