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2011-09-02, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
When I make a character I usually already have an image of them in my head and then pick the class that best represents that, no matter what it is. If Fighter fits my needs then it's what I'll use.
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2011-09-02, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
I'm going to respond to this the same way I did to the "why play a rogue?" thread: You play a fighter so your character can look completely awesome. Fluffing attacks to have yourself jumping off high objects, swinging a keen falchion (1/4 crit chance ftw!) over your head and cleaving an ice giant in two can get pretty awesome.
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2011-09-02, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Not when, even with a crit, you deal less than a tenth of your opponent's hit points... then the rogue comes up and flanks opposite you and drops it in a single hit. Or the Wizard decides he's bored now and makes it fall over dead. Or the cleric gets bored and uses Holy Word to insta-gib it with no save.
The problem is that the Fighter is supposed to be able to fight... and yet every other class in the game, including the pencil-necked wizard can fight better than he can.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
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Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
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2011-09-02, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Shouldn't this be in the 3e/3.5e/pathfinder forum? Because apart from those systems (Although in Pathfinder you can play an archer fighter pretty effectively) there are plenty of reasons to play fighter.
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2011-09-02, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
How I make Fighter enjoyable?
Well:
- I take a couple of levels of Ranger to open up more useful class skills, and to get free Rapid Shot without needing to waste feats.
- I take a level of Barbarian for Fast Movement/Pounce depending on how much damage I wish to be able to do.
- I take Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant.
- I take Zhentarim Fighter Substitution Levels.
- I spend my feats mostly on tactical feats (Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Elusive Target) with generic boosts (such as Knowledge Devotion).
- I use the Thug-variant which gives me more skillpoints in exchange for my level 1 feat.
What I'm left with is a character that can:
- Competently use any two-handed weapon or a bow.
- Decent area control capability with any reach weapon.
- Solid damage in straight-up stand-up fighting and while charging.
- Capable of intimidating most weaker opponents into submission.
- Decent skill access allowing for actually interesting skill use.
Of course, I'm multiclassing, I'm still missing some key proficiencies and I could do much better as a Warblade. And I wouldn't need to multiclass then. But if I was forced to play a Fighter I'd take what Fighter does well and do all of it reasonably and get a rounded Fighter with lots of useful abilities and even competency in Bull Rushing and Tripping (yes, really!) in addition to straight-up fighting and charging. Oh, and intimidating. What a multitalented Fighter. And one with some skillpoints to boot, and ability to use two different classes of weapons somewhat reasonably!Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2011-09-02, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
It's kinda unfair when you optimize the Rogue to be capable of oneshotting a Frost Giant (133 HP) in a single attack, but stick your Fighter with such an awful Strength he can only do 13 HP with a Falchion Crit...
Fighters can be Uberchargers as well as anyone else, and Uberchargers beat out anything else in the game on raw damage except a max-tooled blaster-caster. The problem isn't that they can't fight, it's that they can only fight. Which, if that's all you want to do, is no problem at all.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-09-02, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
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Warriors and Wuxia, Callos_DeTerran's ToB setting
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2011-09-02, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2011-09-02, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Milan,Italy
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
A good DM. The Fighter is, at least for me, a boring class. Really boring.
Me and my group will participate in a PF tournament this week-end using pre-gen characters: a Sorcerer, a Rogue, a Cleric and a Fighter. No one wanted to play the Fighter. The pre-gen characters are really unoptimized so isn't a problem of raw power, but of mere fun.
But. If you have a low-op group and the DM is a capable one, one that let every character shine and use the backstory you wrote to tell a great story then you could play a Fighter and have fun.
I hate WotC and Paizo for that: I love Fighters, but they designed them in a really awful way.
Anyway if you want to play a mundane class who goes in melee and dish out a good damage (and you play PF) you could use something else: a Skirmisher Ranger or a Trapper Ranger could be a good frontliner, and have more tools under their belt other than "I stab with my sword".
Forever in debt with smuchmuch for the cyberpunk avatar.
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2011-09-02, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Well it's not JUST that all they can do is fight. They are lacking in fighting, just not in damage. Fighting is not just all damage. For example I'd consider Fighter's far better if they had more mobility. They also typically last the ability to inflict status effects/use save or sucks, and are generally restricted to attacking a single enemy at a time (cleave is pretty situational, whirlwind is huge on prerequisites, and that's pretty much it as far as multitarget abilities for a fighter goes).
Also, they're pretty much restricted to only ranged OR melee combat (typically melee since ranged can be done better from other classes, like Ranger), so if the fight becomes focused at a range the Fighter isn't built for, he gets to sit useless. Last, they lack any meaningful access to the action economy. They have nothing they are able to do as a swift action, or immediate action, and even their standard action options are pretty sub par. They pretty much need to stand in one place and full attack to be effective, which is a huge failing.
There's also the complaints that they're boring and have no real options or any sort of resource to manage, but that is something that is more a matter of taste than balance.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-09-02, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2011-09-02, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
I tend to be able to enjoy fighters but I have to throw on a lot of alternate class features. It is like a salad in a lot of ways, the extras like dressing or croutons make a meal.
Generally a fighter properly utilizing the dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim and thug acfs is enjoyable as they bring much more utility than a standard fighter. You can take your average warrior and transform him into a mercenary who can track down his mark, kick down the door and smash their face into the wall.
The joy is found in amplifying that level of extraordinary, mundane power. Instead of throwing around spells and such you are simply a scary dude who will get to you & destroy you. This is fun found in grounding a character like that.
Rogue: "So how do we do this job?"
Wizard: "Well I could teleport us in, and throw around some orbs or summon a monster?"
Fighter: "Or we could kick in the door and break some faces?"
Rogue: "That's every solution to you."
Fighter: "Its every solution to me because it is always awesome."
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2011-09-02, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-09-02, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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2011-09-02, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-09-02, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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2011-09-02, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- the throne of regrets
Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
One of my favorite characters is a half-dwarf, single-classed fighter -- specifically, a brawler fighter. It's a build from the 4e book Martial Power 2, but there's no reason you can't port it into other systems. MP2 provides some powers, but it's the style that's incredibly fun.
You wield a one-handed weapon with no shield (so, my guy's got a versatile weapon, that is, a warhammer, plus a couple of throwing axes on his belt), so he can grab/drag/throw/pummel enemies with his free hand. 4e has with a bunch of powers that let this actually be mechanically good, but with a good DM or a combat system that rewards roleplaying (not sure how Pathfinder is, I know Story Engine does it well), you can apply these things in other systems.
Things brawlers are good at:
-Punching. Muthatruckin. Monsters. How often have you wanted to do this? Trust me, it is way satisfying to get up in some cultist of Orcus' ritual-performing face and save the day by laying him out with a belt in the gob.
That's enough, in my opinion, to make it hugely fun, but they also:
-Grab and drag enemies, then leave them prone (giving them a control function -- that coveted martial controller at last?)
-Thow/push enemies into other enemies, doing damage and stunning effects -- more control
-Attack multiple adjacent enemies: hit one with the weapon, one with a fist
-Use improvised weapons: broken bottles, mystic statuettes that the rest of the party is going to be real cheesed if you use to stove in the face of a vampire, stockings full of GP...
-Drink copiously and start bar fights. Seriously. The 4e build, at least, has some feats for crowd-fighting with shifting and enemies doing damage to each other, and again, with a good DM this stuff can all port around.
-Bonuses to intimidate and streetwise
And, as loads of people above have mentioned for fighters of all stripes, they can:
-Roleplay like a boss. With a brawler you'll have those over-serious characters jealous in no time.At least now I can get back to enjoying my glass of elven wine in peace and quiet, without being called on to intervene in someone else's problems.
Clang, clang, clang goes the trolley! Ring, ring, ring goes the bell! Git away from me, ye daft fool!
*sigh*
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2011-09-02, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-09-02, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Pensacola, Florida
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
emphasis mine.
By and large I agree with you, but I would like to simply point out that fighters have access to these, most players just never think to use them because that's not what they've identified as the best. sundered spell component pouches, disarmed weapons, and prone opponents are all forms of debuffs. spells can be more effective at some of this, but magic has like 4 different fog engines, so I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. not to mention, it is in fact possible to put up meaningful armor class and absorb a lot more damage than your HP by not getting hit, few people bother though because it gets in the way of damage.
10 + 1-3(dex)+13(+5 mithral full plate)+9(+5 tower shield)+5(ring of protection+5)+5(amulet of natural armor+5) = 43-45 for a little more than 200,000gp, meaning level 15, and with 13 INT combat expertise can push this even higher. mature adult blue dragon gets +24, so he needs a natural 20 to hit you(I know dragons don't fight this way, it was just the first CR appropriate statblock i found).
So yes, I'd say fighters have their options provided 2 things:
1. ToB is not in use. if it is, there is very little reason to use anything else for melee.
2. you let yourself have more than a couple tricks. look into a jack of all trades, but with combat styles instead of skills. i think fighters do this better than anyone else, given that 1 is in effect."Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays."-Arthur Dent, The Hitchhiker's Guide
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2011-09-02, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
DID SOMEBODY ORDER A LARGE HAM!?
FLY MY HAWKMEN, FLY!
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2011-09-02, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
The problem is that when you do that, your damage output is nil (as you pointed out yourself) - at which point, there's very little reason for any monster of above animal intelligence...and even some smarter animals...to spend more than one round flailing away at you, when they can just walk past and munch on the softer people who are actually hurting them.
Roleplaying taunts can help, but without a tripping/control build or Knight levels to mechanically force them to attack, it starts to strain disbelief heavily when enemies always go for the most difficult and least threatening opponent.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-09-02 at 09:51 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-09-02, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Sundering component pouches is useful until it becomes a widespread tactic and mages start buying hundreds of them, because they're dirt cheap and weigh almost nothing, so why not? Tripping is a form of control that is both pretty overrated, and becomes less useful as you start running into things larger than you with more legs and more strength. Disarming isn't even worth considering since most of the things you fight don't even care about weapons.
I'll address AC below.
10 + 1-3(dex)+13(+5 mithral full plate)+9(+5 tower shield)+5(ring of protection+5)+5(amulet of natural armor+5) = 43-45 for a little more than 200,000gp, meaning level 15, and with 13 INT combat expertise can push this even higher. mature adult blue dragon gets +24, so he needs a natural 20 to hit you(I know dragons don't fight this way, it was just the first CR appropriate statblock i found).
All that AC, and you know what happens? The enemy ignores you, as Glyph said. Alternatively, the enemy hits you with a touch attack (oops there goes almost all of that armor). Or he hits you with a reflex save. Or a Will save. Both of which are going to be abysmal.
I didn't mention a Fighter's defense, but I meant to when I started writing my first post. Fighter's defenses aren't the best in the game. They're among the worst. They have **** for saves, and no non-armor defenses at all. Part of that ties into mobility (best defense is not being able to be hit by the target), often a mage's best defense is just flying above the melee guy. But caster's have other defenses. Archers? Sorry, Wind Wall. Elemental attacks? Sorry high resistance or immunity to it. Most status effects? There's a spell for immunity to that. Even against melee attacks, AC is typically a pretty bad way to avoid them, and it's far more efficient to stack up miss chances and concealment, which the fighter lacks access to.
Fighters have decent HP. By decent I mean 3 hp per level more than the worst in the game. It'll make the difference of an extra round on the front lines, maybe. They have decent AC, but the majority of AC bonuses would be coming from gear, not the Fighter, so about the only point you could give it is for having access to full plate. But every sort of defense that's actually meaningful? Fighter's don't have it, other people do. That's part of the problem.
So yes, I'd say fighters have their options provided 2 things:
1. ToB is not in use. if it is, there is very little reason to use anything else for melee.
2. you let yourself have more than a couple tricks. look into a jack of all trades, but with combat styles instead of skills. i think fighters do this better than anyone else, given that 1 is in effect.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-09-02, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Well, if you wanted to outdo a Soulborn at Incarnumancy, there's a slight case to be made there, but beyond that...
V: I'm so glad I went to that page. Last time I was there, they didn't have anything about Henry 8.0.
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2011-09-02, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-02, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Personally, I love playing fighters. The idea that I don't need magic or divine and ragerific powers makes me feel like more skill is involved. Now, I have been known to use archetypes, but I think that it's a lot better than just multiclassing out.
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2011-09-02, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2011-09-03, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
I don't take JaronK's word on fighters for anything. Long story.
You don't need high skill scores in everything. If you really want them, you can get them easier in Pathfinder. In any case, argument about the game mechanics of fighters have been done to death. I've heard it all before, and it's still garbage. Those who think the fighter sucks donkey aren't going to change their mind no matter what any differing opinion is offered. Case in point right here since I wasn't really talking about the game mechanics at all but rather roleplaying ideas to make playing a fighter more interesting, to get the feel of what it is to be a fighter. Immerse yourself into the role so that you're not just some guy with a pointy stick.
Whether one is having hysterical temper tamtrums because the wizard is casting Gate, Force Cage, Glitterdust, and Rope Trick is something else altogether.
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2011-09-03, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-03, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
Indeed. Something that has nothing to do with what I said. So I must admit I'm rather confused as to why you felt the need to point this out.
Besides, Rope Trick is generally something that DMs get antsy about, not Fighters.
No, but it certainly helps to actually have skill ranks. And your run of the mill plate-posteriored goblinthwacker is decidedly lacking in skillpoints to pay even lip service to such things that make Kinging easier or improve the quality of one's Kinging.
Well, unless they want to take after Robert Baratheon, anyway.
Generally lacks the stats to really back up most roleplay along those lines anyway, unless one wants to sacrifice one's combat abilities entirely
If you're going to roleplay, it's generally best to actually have something in the character to back it up if the system has things to account for it. And I was pointing out the logical conclusion of such an individual actually obtaining the throne as a tongue-in-cheek observation anyway.
Seriously. A man who is not very persuasive, cunning, or wise. A man who has no actual training in leadership or knowledge of political intrigue and how to use it or at least defend against it or, indeed, kinging in general. Aye, a man whose main recommendation to the position is murdering people in the face lots.
That's not a recipe for anything good for the kingdom, unless he's a puppet and whoever controls his strings is either altruistic or has enlightened self-interest. And between the low will save and sense motive... He's going to be someone's puppet.
If we want to address the real meat and potatoes of your post about roleplay to covereth the fighter's flanks, well, from what I've read of the OP's posts, it doesn't seem like the arena of roleplay is really what's at issue here.
What fluff in particular is that?
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2011-09-03, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Why Play a Fighter? (DND/Pathfinder)
From PFSRD
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.
Forever in debt with smuchmuch for the cyberpunk avatar.