League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

[ArcanistSupreme]

if you ask me it is the best part of dominion
it makes both teams try to constantly be better than your opponents
but it should be made easier to come back after their comeback

I dunno, I don't really think it's fun when none of the game matters except the last two minutes. Why not just start everyone to level 18, give everyone a ton of gold, set the score to 75 for each team and play from there if that's going to be the case?

[EternalMelon]

I'm on a 5 win streak right now, some of my best games ever, and only 2 of those were not solo.... I'm afraid to play, in fear of losing...
Weird.

[Eldariel]

I dunno, I don't really think it's fun when none of the game matters except the last two minutes. Why not just start everyone to level 18, give everyone a ton of gold, set the score to 75 for each team and play from there if that's going to be the case?

I've always said any loser's advantage should be based on the boardstate, not the total score. The team that controls more points should have longer respawn times. This makes for dynamic games with constant back'n'forth, and any gains are "permanent" so an enemy has to play equally well to get them back but you still aren't FUBARd when behind.

EDIT: And Wickd leaves SK. So much for that team; Candy/Nyph is still the strongest botlane in the competitive scene and Oce is a rather strong midplayer but Snoopeh is only an average jungler at best and they'll be hard-pressed to find a new competent top. Linak left M too but given that wasn't even a team anymore, I don't think anybody cares. So now there's really only one European team in Fnatic.

[zolga]

i am against prolonging death timers in dominion
but maybe something like (noticeably)shorter capture times if you control more than 3 points
and the longer the game is the more are capture times reduced

[Eldariel]

i am against prolonging death timers in dominion
but maybe something like (noticeably)shorter capture times if you control more than 3 points
and the longer the game is the more are capture times reduced

By "longer capture times", I mean "longer than the enemy team"; that is, the team with 2 or less points while enemy controls 3+ has proportionally reduced death timers as they do right now based on the aggregate score.

[Dogmantra]

Oooh, interesting. Just read from a Red about Wukong. He isn't certain, as he is not balance team, but he recalls hearing Wukong's Q will now proc on-hits after this patch. Not bad.

Gonna be flavour of the mooooonth.

She doesn't have any hard CC though... which is probably why she isn't "good".

She's a fantastic character, but the reason she's "bad" is because she:
1. Doesn't have an ultimate for teamfight changing shenanigans a la Soraka, Janna, Taric, Cow.
2. Doesn't have hard CC (though that's probably the least of her problems)
3. Is very definitely a support, but she needs farm to be effective. People hate supports farming, and if she solos a lane, her burst isn't particularly good compared to more typical solo lane AP casters.

1. MOST mids want blue. SOME mids need blue.

I don't think any mid needs blue, including Anivia and Swain. You just need to be more careful with your mana and you'll be fine.

Nasus really really really hates laning against a ranged AD. If you send someone like Cho'Gath bot to 2v1 the lane and send your support/carry top, you have delayed Nasus endgame by like 15 minutes, right there.

He seems to destroy Ezreal. I played Nasus mid vs Ezreal once and broke him. I thought "oh, maybe it just wasn't a very good Ezreal". Nope, I played Ezreal top against Nasus and he stomped in much the same way. Now either we were both really good Nasuses compared to the Ezreal we faced (which I somewhat doubt, I rather fancy my Ezreal play and rarely play Nasus) or he's quite good.

[Eldariel]

AD Malzahar, people. Malzahar's Voidlings benefit of his AD and ArPen. Build CDR, mana and AD. It's awesome!

[Spartacus]

He seems to destroy Ezreal. I played Nasus mid vs Ezreal once and broke him. I thought "oh, maybe it just wasn't a very good Ezreal". Nope, I played Ezreal top against Nasus and he stomped in much the same way. Now either we were both really good Nasuses compared to the Ezreal we faced (which I somewhat doubt, I rather fancy my Ezreal play and rarely play Nasus) or he's quite good.

I find myself taking so much damage whenever I go near a minion wave that it becomes impossible to take any minions. Granted, I've played against Ezreal, but Ashe, Vayne and Caitlyn have all totally taken me apart in lane. Eventually Nasus will get items and then beat any AD carry (Wither is really good for that) but I find my early game weakness lasts far past what it should. The only way I can think of beating a ranged AD carry early on require using so much mana it seems not feasible.

[Dogmantra]

AD Malzahar, people. Malzahar's Voidlings benefit of his AD and ArPen. Build CDR, mana and AD. It's awesome!

Shortly before it GOT RUINED, Arb told me this and I made a mental note to try Gunbladezahar. I never got around to it ;_;

[Eldariel]

Shortly before it GOT RUINED, Arb told me this and I made a mental note to try Gunbladezahar. I never got around to it ;_;

Now you can go pure AD. Youmuu's, BT, BC, Manamune, CDR Boots, Aegis or some such.

[Dogmantra]

I actually wanted to do that way before I got into playing Malzahar and before I knew about Voidlings

Well then, to CUSTOM GAMELAND

[efdf]

I've always thought Ezreal beat Nasus

Anyone willing to play that match up vs me to test?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I've always said any loser's advantage should be based on the boardstate, not the total score. The team that controls more points should have longer respawn times. This makes for dynamic games with constant back'n'forth, and any gains are "permanent" so an enemy has to play equally well to get them back but you still aren't FUBARd when behind.

See, this is a good idea. It makes all points of the game matter, but it allows for a comeback.

As lame as snowballing can be, every single multiplayer game that I can think of has some form of it, and not just video games. Chess, checkers, backgammon, Scrabble, basketball, football, tennis, poker, races of any kind, heck, even beer pong. Once you get significantly ahead in any game, you are rewarded for that. Either you just have a cushion that allows for more mistakes or you gain a position that allows more control of the game. Any game that isn't like that is a game of chance that pits the player versus probability; roulette, slot machines, flipping a coin, etc, and doesn't allow for any skill beyond knowing how likely it is that you will win/lose (which doesn't improve your chances of winning too much).

Sure, Dominion in its current state isn't pure chance, but like games of chance it often removes the element of player abilities/choices affecting the final outcome of the game. Personally, I don't care for that and heartily approve of the direction Riot wants to take things, provided that they implement it well. Granted, that may be like hoping that they'll complete balance every champion in the next patch, but at least they are taking steps in the right direction.

EDIT: Also, while it is super fun to win the game with a score of 4 to 0, when it happens every game the novelty starts to wear off. I want to feel a sense of achievement when I come back, not that the game made it all but inevitable.

[Dogmantra]

I've always thought Ezreal beat Nasus

Anyone willing to play that match up vs me to test?

See, it really feels like he should which is why I want to call those two games flukes/the Nasuses were better/the Ezreals were having a bad day/whatever.

[zolga]

By "longer capture times", I mean "longer than the enemy team"; that is, the team with 2 or less points while enemy controls 3+ has proportionally reduced death timers as they do right now based on the aggregate score.

you said respawn timers not capture timers so we are not talking about the same thing
what im trying to say is that shorter point capture timers would make for better and fairer comebacks than shorter death timers

if they managed to kill you at the first place coming back faster wont make you die less
but having the ability take points from your stronger opponent faster to balance the situation would make the game even more dynamic
also it would make the losing side be able to direct the game by either skirmishing points or by focusing them because they could benefit more from the mistakes in macro positioning of the winning side

im mostly against any more playing around with the death timers in dominion because it would quite probably dis balance the game more then we think
on the other side as i said shorter capture times if you are losing would give u much more manageable pace control

[PersonMan]

A little while ago I thought I'd try out Taric. I played him about 6 months ago, and saw him played well twice, saw that he was only 1350 and thought 'eh, why not?'.

First game(3v3) is a nice win. I run something like 2/4/6 or something.

Second game(another 3v3) is going meh, as I'm top vs trynd for a bit until Riven takes over. Bot it's me and Xerath against Kennen and Xin. Suddenly, Xerath DCs. About one second later, so does Riven.

Wonderful.

For about 2 minutes I try to def, narrowly escaping death twice(about 32 HP both times, I think). Then I say 'screw it' and type into the all chat "Can I make a deal with you?". I ask if they can ignore me if I just jungle for a while. They said yes. I take one camp and kennen asks where I am. I tell him(I'm at the red lizard) and he comes to watch, shortly followed by Xin. At this point I wish I could record the game. Eventually Trynd comes and watches me, too, while I take the third camp. I go top, take another camp and then b, where I def until 20 and surrender.

It was the best 1v3 I've ever played* and the other team basically let me have fun with the last few minutes, which was cool.

Screenshot, if anyone wants to know the exact numbers:

Spoiler

Show

*Alright, it was the only 1v3 I've ever played, so...

[Eldariel]

you said respawn timers not capture timers so we are not talking about the same thing
what im trying to say is that shorter point capture timers would make for better and fairer comebacks than shorter death timers

if they managed to kill you at the first place coming back faster wont make you die less
but having the ability take points from your stronger opponent faster to balance the situation would make the game even more dynamic
also it would make the losing side be able to direct the game by either skirmishing points or by focusing them because they could benefit more from the mistakes in macro positioning of the winning side

im mostly against any more playing around with the death timers in dominion because it would quite probably dis balance the game more then we think
on the other side as i said shorter capture times if you are losing would give u much more manageable pace control

I meant "respawn times" again zzzz. Basically, I'm saying "shorter respawn for team behind on control points".

[tribble]

Shouldn't Wukong's Q already apply on-hits, being that it's an autoattack buff like Garen's or Nasus' Q?

[Dogmantra]

Shouldn't Wukong's Q already apply on-hits, being that it's an autoattack buff like Garen's or Nasus' Q?

It's bugged.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Yes, yes it should. At least you'd think so, as that's how every single next-autoattack skill works (as well as Parrley and Mystic Shot). Apparently it'll at least benefit from lifesteal as of next patch.

I really really hope the Wukong buffs make him good in the jungle. It just seems wrong that the Monkey King would be pretty meh as a jungler.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

What does Taric do these days? 0CS? Tanky Deeps? AP/CDR?

[Eldariel]

Yes, yes it should. At least you'd think so, as that's how every single next-autoattack skill works (as well as Parrley and Mystic Shot). Apparently it'll at least benefit from lifesteal as of next patch.

I really really hope the Wukong buffs make him good in the jungle. It just seems wrong that the Monkey King would be pretty meh as a jungler.

Well, the Jungle Girl (Nidalee) already is so there's precedent for this...

[dgnslyr]

Why wouldn't Wukong be able to jungle? He's got an AA reset that also gives ArPen, and a (weak) AS steroid that also does multi-target damage. He seems like he could do a decent job clearing camps.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have much CC for his ganks, save maybe his ult, and Warwick is probably the gold standard for junglers with ult-reliant ganks.

[tyckspoon]

What does Taric do these days? 0CS? Tanky Deeps? AP/CDR?

0CS is the assumed role. TankDPS would work fine, I think, probably solo top (although not sure how Taric stacks up to other typical roles there, his kit looks like it should fit into the stay-in-lane-all-day sustains ok) but if you want to try it you need to make sure you tell your team; normally if they see you take Taric they're going to assume you plan to support.

[Dogmantra]

Why wouldn't Wukong be able to jungle? He's got an AA reset that also gives ArPen, and a (weak) AS steroid that also does multi-target damage. He seems like he could do a decent job clearing camps.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have much CC for his ganks, save maybe his ult, and Warwick is probably the gold standard for junglers with ult-reliant ganks.

His ganks are amazing (stealth out, dash, Red Buff 'em to death), it's his clearing that's pretty bad. He's got no way of clearing SUPER fast (see: Amumu, Karthus, Olaf), no inherent sustain (see: Warwick, Olaf, Lee Sin) and he has no shield or other increase to defenses (see: Lee Sin, Jarvan IV). Most junglers will have at least two of these, if not all of them. Junglers that don't have to keep going back. I ended up hitting 5 REALLY late. That said, I'm sure I wasn't doing an optimal route but I tried a ton of different starts and couldn't get a good clear going. Obviously once I got the Wriggle's I was fine.

What does Taric do these days? 0CS? Tanky Deeps? AP/CDR?

Any of those, but my favourites are BLYACTSBSALYGF* support, or BLYACTSBSALYGF tanky DPS or solo top (focusing Stun is pretty dang good up there) for tanky DPS

* My new initialism to go alongside 0CS -it means "Bot Lane Yell At Carry To Stop Being Silly And Let You Get Farm

[Astrella]

Like right now Orianna is pretty strong but completely unplayed.

Shhhh, don't draw attention to it!

[Cute_Riolu]

His ganks are amazing (stealth out, dash, Red Buff 'em to death), it's his clearing that's pretty bad. He's got no way of clearing SUPER fast (see: Amumu, Karthus, Olaf), no inherent sustain (see: Warwick, Olaf, Lee Sin) and he has no shield or other increase to defenses (see: Lee Sin, Jarvan IV). Most junglers will have at least two of these, if not all of them. Junglers that don't have to keep going back. I ended up hitting 5 REALLY late. That said, I'm sure I wasn't doing an optimal route but I tried a ton of different starts and couldn't get a good clear going. Obviously once I got the Wriggle's I was fine.

Did you try AD/Armorpen mix on runes, starting with a vamp scepter? ...granted, that'll be more effective with this patch, since his Q doesn't proc the scepter.

[Dogmantra]

Did you try AD/Armorpen mix on runes, starting with a vamp scepter? ...granted, that'll be more effective with this patch, since his Q doesn't proc the scepter.

Almost. Don't have AD marks yet (they're my next purchase for a dedicated Lee Sin page... speaking of which I need to find a Tom Milsom song with a good title for that...), but I did Armour Pen and Attack Speed runes, starting with Vamp Sceptre, Longsword and Cloth Armour, and a rank in Crushing Blow and Dashy Thingy.

Nothing worked particularly well, though I feel like once they fix the bug with Crushing Blow he'll manage a minis start relatively well.

[TechnOkami]

A little while ago I thought I'd try out Taric. I played him about 6 months ago, and saw him played well twice, saw that he was only 1350 and thought 'eh, why not?'.

First game(3v3) is a nice win. I run something like 2/4/6 or something.

Second game(another 3v3) is going meh, as I'm top vs trynd for a bit until Riven takes over. Bot it's me and Xerath against Kennen and Xin. Suddenly, Xerath DCs. About one second later, so does Riven.

Wonderful.

For about 2 minutes I try to def, narrowly escaping death twice(about 32 HP both times, I think). Then I say 'screw it' and type into the all chat "Can I make a deal with you?". I ask if they can ignore me if I just jungle for a while. They said yes. I take one camp and kennen asks where I am. I tell him(I'm at the red lizard) and he comes to watch, shortly followed by Xin. At this point I wish I could record the game. Eventually Trynd comes and watches me, too, while I take the third camp. I go top, take another camp and then b, where I def until 20 and surrender.

It was the best 1v3 I've ever played* and the other team basically let me have fun with the last few minutes, which was cool.

Screenshot, if anyone wants to know the exact numbers:

Spoiler

Show

*Alright, it was the only 1v3 I've ever played, so...

...heh, this reminds me of a game I had. Unfortunately I have no real way of proving this happened, (I could probably find it on the Lolstatistics website if their history goes all the way back) but this was doing the noob days where no one knew what they were doing. I managed to successfully win a 1 v 3 as Tryndamere. I can't for the life of me remember who I was fighting against, but I am serious when this happened.

But yeah, more about your game: it's nice when people are... well, nice.

[Arbitrarity]

Phoenix does more damage over time when you've maxed it (that's what Bob says); Tiger does frontloaded damage. Phoenix is better for 1v1 melee fights while Tiger is better for people who try to avoid melee with you.

Doo doo doo math

This is per activation, over a 5s period, around level 18. Expected AS is 1.2 with fully stacked Monkey's Agility. Expected AD is about 110. Assume damaging stance is on for 1/3 of the time, which is surprisingly optimal for Phoenix. 1.66 seconds, synced up perfectly with the start of an attack, results in one three-hit rotation. This is really assuming Udyr has no items.

Phoenix deals 335 magic damage over the 5s from activation in a small AOE around Udyr, and 212 from three-hit proc, which is in a fairly big frontal cone. That's 547. It also adds 24 AD, over 7 attacks, for an additional 168 damage (715). This assumes you don't super-preload your Phoenix by by attacking creeps wayyy before, which could let you get an additional proc by staying in Phoenix longer, adding another 212 damage.
Tiger deals 395 magic damage from the activating hit, and increases AS to about 1.7 for 1.66 seconds, and 1.4ish for the remaining 5s. This lets him make an additional 1.5 attacks over the duration, for an additional 165 damage (460 total).

There are a few subtle differences. First, Tiger lets you buffer its burst 5s before, which is brutally frontloaded. Second, Phoenix damage requires that you sit directly in the middle of your opponents, while Tiger mostly requires that you hit them once. Also, Tiger scales better than Phoenix. It's impossible to get enough AS to get two procs out of that rotation in Phoenix, and AD scales better with Udyr's AS steroids.
So Phoenix works better with tanky builds, since it has great bases, if you can stick on your opponents and stay in the middle of them. Tiger is good with more offensive, AD based builds where you expect to have a hard time staying on your opponents. Wit's End is good for this as well. Getting some AS is good, because it lets you switch stances more rapidly, stun more people, and adds a tiny bit more damage from your AD steroid Phoenix stance. Generally Phoenix is good in lane against opponents that want to push you out faster than Tiger can clear (perhaps Singed?), while Tiger is better for harassing melee opponents due to it's frontloaded damage. Of course, against constantly harassing ranged opponents, you'll probably max Turtle for the infinite ignoring. In jungle, Tiger lets you gank better with more frontloaded burst, but Phoenix gives you much faster clear speed, for superior counter-jungling and small camps. In sustained fights, Phoenix pulls ahead of Tiger with levels really quickly: Level 1, they're about equal, but after that the self-multipliers on Phoenix damage become far too much.