The Index of the Giant's Comments

[mhsmith]

Giant's comments on forum stalking

[Silver Swift]

I just went through the first post and the following quotes do not directly reference OotS. Whether this means we should remove them is up for debate, I think at least the last one gets referenced occasionally.

D&D's Alignment System: Thoughts on how it could be improved. (02/18/2012; #838)

On Being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS. (02/15/2006; #281)

Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells: A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells. (04/09/2013; #883)

Some Thoughts on Visuals and Story: People get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic. (02/18/2012; #838)

True Resurrection as a narrative-wrecking device, and an answer to the age-old "why didn't x character do y?" question. (9/07/2012; #862)

I personally vote we remove the first four and am ambivalent about the fifth.

[Emanick]

I just went through the first post and the following quotes do not directly reference OotS. Whether this means we should remove them is up for debate, I think at least the last one gets referenced occasionally.



I personally vote we remove the first four and am ambivalent about the fifth.

I vote that we keep the fifth. I'm fine with removing the first four.

[Kish]

Of them all, the fifth seems the least related to OotS to me. Though I wouldn't vote to remove any of them.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Those are much more related to the story and the themes he's trying to get across than the avatar post though. Maybe we should ask him if he still wants those in?

[Bird]

So if your interest is in reading my thoughts on the creative process, linking them here is a surefire way to guarantee I never share such thoughts again.

Well, that's fair enough. Thanks for clearing this up, and my apologies for being overzealous in wanting your musings chronicled.

[NerdyKris]

The Avatar post only tangentially mentioned the well known fact that the early strip's focus on rules jokes turns a lot of people off. I don't even think that needs to be recorded anywhere. It's pretty much common knowledge. Beyond that, I don't think it says anything about the writing process of Order of the Stick or Rich's creative process. Just "Hey, I think Avatar was well written and here's why, and I'm going to reference my own work because it's something everyone here will know".

It is a little ridiculous when we note every time he so much as coughs in the direction of the forums. Or reference posts made in this thread about this thread.

As for the list of suggested removals, I'd keep the Vampire Durkon still casting spells, it seems sort of relevant, but I'm not sure. The last one should be in, because it clearly states that true resurrection isn't readily available, specifically to the Black Dragon.

[Jasdoif]

I agree about the spoiler tags. I think using tables may be a way to fix that (see Savannah's post here) and may make for some cleaner organization.

So you're thinking of arranging it somewhat like....this?

Spoiler

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I took the liberty of sorting the most recent quotes first in the tables; and I only did the Alignment quotes so the tables for Roy/Haley/Xykon are empty.


Alignment

Spoiler

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{table=head]{colsp=2}

General

07/23/2013[br](#903)|Alignment and Authorial Intent[br]What does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?
07/22/2013[br](#903)|Who Else is Neutral[br] A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.
06/06/2013[br](#891)|Shojo's Chaotic Government[br]Shojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.
06/03/2013[br](#891)|More on Being Lawful[br]More on being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
02/14/2013[br](#835)|D&D, Alignment, and Morality[br]Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).
08/17/2012[br](#801)|V is True Neutral[br]
02/18/2012[br](#838)|D&D's Alignment System[br]Thoughts on how it could be improved.
01/23/2012[br](#830)|Redcloak is Evil[br]
11/18/2011[br](#815)|Elan and Nale's Parentage[br]How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.
10/25/2011[br](#812)|Alignment and Environment[br]Enor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.
10/24/2011[br](#812)|Enor & Gannji are True Neutral[br]
07/27/2011[br](#798)|Durkon is Lawful Good[br]
12/07/2010[br](#763)|Tarquin is Lawful Evil[br]
02/15/2006[br](#281)|On Being Lawful Good[br]Being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
12/01/2005[br](#251)|Belkar is Chaotic Evil[br]
01/20/2005[br](#142)|Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil[br][/table]

Characters

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{table=head]{colsp=2}

Roy

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Haley

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Durkon

07/27/2011[br](#798)|Durkon is Lawful Good[br][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Elan

11/18/2011[br](#815)|Elan and Nale's Parentage[br]How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Vaarsuvius

08/17/2012[br](#801)|V is True Neutral[br][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Belkar

12/01/2005[br](#251)|Belkar is Chaotic Evil[br][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Redcloak

01/23/2012[br](#830)|Redcloak is Evil[br][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=2}

Xykon

[/table]

[NerdyKris]

Oooh, I really like that format.

[AKA_Bait]

Oooh, I really like that format.

I agree. That format would make finding quotes relevant to other discussions easier than the current set up.

I will now resume lurking.

[Muenster Man]

Alignment discussions seem to always pop up frequently on the forums so I don't think we should get rid of the first two. Durkon casting spells as a vampire is still a pretty recent development, I don't know if we should be so hasty in getting rid of it.

I would be okay if the comment on story and visuals got removed because that seems to touch on the creative process the Giant mentioned he doesn't want to be included. And it's more relevant to story-telling in general rather than just OotS. In the past, the Giant has frequently defended his decision to use stick figures and it's not a complaint or topic I see on the forums these days so I don't think it's necessary to have anymore.

The last one seems fine. It states in clear terms that the Giant does not want to introduce True Resurrection into the story, serving as a good counter to people who (still) claim that TR is a viable means to bring back characters.

[Sky_Schemer]

I just went through the first post and the following quotes do not directly reference OotS. Whether this means we should remove them is up for debate, I think at least the last one gets referenced occasionally.

I personally vote we remove the first four and am ambivalent about the fifth.

The third and the fifth do reference OOtS. I'd leave them.

The third is about Durkon, and was in response to a lot of forum debate. Past experience suggests it will come up again in the future.

The fifth is referring to why some spells will never show up in his story. It's referenced quite often in forum threads, pretty much every time someone says "Well, soon, V will have access to Wish/Limited Wish/Uber-Spell-of-the-Day" or something similar.

[Jasdoif]

I agree. That format would make finding quotes relevant to other discussions easier than the current set up.

I just realized though, that the line break BBcode I'm using gets messed up when editing or previewing the post, which would make maintaining the index with it a nightmare.

I have an alternative though, adding a separate column for the strip number and condensing the rest. How about this?

Spoiler

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Alignment

Spoiler

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{table=head]{colsp=3}

General

07/23/2013|#903|Alignment and Authorial Intent: What does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?
07/22/2013|#903|Who Else is Neutral: A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.
06/06/2013|#891|Shojo's Chaotic Government: Shojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.
06/03/2013|#891|More on Being Lawful: More on being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
02/14/2013|#835|D&D, Alignment, and Morality: Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).
08/17/2012|#801|V is True Neutral
02/18/2012|#838|D&D's Alignment System: Thoughts on how it could be improved.
01/23/2012|#830|Redcloak is Evil
11/18/2011|#815|Elan and Nale's Parentage: How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.
10/25/2011|#812|Alignment and Environment: Enor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.
10/24/2011|#812|Enor & Gannji are True Neutral
07/27/2011|#798|Durkon is Lawful Good
12/07/2010|#763|Tarquin is Lawful Evil
02/15/2006|#281|On Being Lawful Good: Being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
12/01/2005|#251|Belkar is Chaotic Evil
01/20/2005|#142|Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil[/table]

Characters

Spoiler

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{table=head]{colsp=3}

Roy

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Haley

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Durkon

07/27/2011|#798|Durkon is Lawful Good[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Elan

11/18/2011|#815|Elan and Nale's Parentage: How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Vaarsuvius

08/17/2012|#801|V is True Neutral[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Belkar

12/01/2005|#251|Belkar is Chaotic Evil[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Redcloak

01/23/2012|#830|Redcloak is Evil[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Xykon

[/table]

[FlawedParadigm]

So if your interest is in reading my thoughts on the creative process, linking them here is a surefire way to guarantee I never share such thoughts again.

Clarification; would it be fair to record your thoughts on creative process related to OotS (why X did Y, why you use Disintegrate regularly, et cetera) here, but not creative processes in general (remarks you've made about certain comic book heroes, for example) media?

[ThePhantasm]

That's very much like what I was thinking Jasdoif... I think the index will look much cleaner as a result.

Let's try this plan:

1. I will make the next update to the index (probably over the weekend)
   
   
2. In the meantime, please nominate but do not discuss among yourselves quotes that you think should be removed from the index (make it clear that you are nominating for removal in bold letters in your post so that I won't overlook it)
   
   
3. After the next update, I will take the nominations (or, if there are lots of them, the most frequent nominations) and we will vote on them one by one
   
   
4. After unnecessary quotes are pruned from the index, we will discuss / have votes on how to reorganize the index, new sections, etc.
   
   
5. After that, I will post the new index, newly organized with tables, etc.

[Keris]

I just realized though, that the line break BBcode I'm using gets messed up when editing or previewing the post, which would make maintaining the index with it a nightmare.

A couple of years back Rawhide added a new tag to fix pretty much this exact problem. Instead of using [br] you can wrap the text in [div][/div] tags, which forces the text to start and end on its own line.

[genderlich]

Can I suggest something? In order to avoid confusion about the purpose of the thread, perhaps the link to the Google query for the Giant's comments should be included in the first post along with an explanation of what it's there for and that this index is only for the Giant's comments directly regarding OOTS. I think that would be helpful to keep this thread on-topic and minimally stalker-ish.

[ChristianSt]

I don't know exactly what Rich want to happen, but from what I read from it, I think we should establish a rule that only quotes in the "Order of the Stick"-Subforum should be indexed (I would prefer if Rich can post whatever he likes, and not every time thinking about this thread).

So I think any quote in any other subforum should be discarded (if there are other than the Avatar-discussion) and we should try not to post them here.

[Jasdoif]

Let's try this plan:

1. I will make the next update to the index (probably over the weekend)
2. In the meantime, please nominate but do not discuss among yourselves quotes that you think should be removed from the index (make it clear that you are nominating for removal in bold letters in your post so that I won't overlook it)
3. After the next update, I will take the nominations (or, if there are lots of them, the most frequent nominations) and we will vote on them one by one
4. After unnecessary quotes are pruned from the index, we will discuss / have votes on how to reorganize the index, new sections, etc.
5. After that, I will post the new index, newly organized with tables, etc.

Seems reasonable. Alright, nominations for removal (and reason for nominating):

Enor & Gannji are True Neutral! (10/24/2011; #812)

Their alignments are covered in the more recent Who Else is Neutral? quote, and unlike Vaarsuvius they're not prominent enough to warrant their own dedicated alignment quote.

Pratchett: Rich hasn't read Pratchett. (10/26/2009; #687)

I don't see an actual connection to OOTS, the post expresses a lack of such a connection.

A couple of years back Rawhide added a new tag to fix pretty much this exact problem. Instead of using <br /> you can wrap the text in [div][/div] tags, which forces the text to start and end on its own line.

Interesting, let me give that a shot in the last column. (And I'm noting for the record that quoting your post also altered your line break tag example )

Spoiler

Show

Alignment

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]{colsp=3}

General

07/23/2013|#903|[div]Alignment and Authorial Intent[/div]What does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?
07/22/2013|#903|[div]Who Else is Neutral[/div] A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.
06/06/2013|#891|[div]Shojo's Chaotic Government[/div]Shojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.
06/03/2013|#891|[div]More on Being Lawful[/div]More on being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
02/14/2013|#835|[div]D&D, Alignment, and Morality[/div]Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).
02/18/2012|#838|[div]D&D's Alignment System[/div]Thoughts on how it could be improved.
01/23/2012|#830|[div]Redcloak is Evil[/div]
11/18/2011|#815|[div]Elan and Nale's Parentage[/div]How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.
10/25/2011|#812|[div]Alignment and Environment[/div]Enor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.
10/24/2011|#812|[div]Enor & Gannji are True Neutral[/div]
08/17/2011|#801|[div]V is True Neutral[/div]
07/27/2011|#798|[div]Durkon is Lawful Good[/div]
12/07/2010|#763|[div]Tarquin is Lawful Evil[/div]
02/15/2006|#281|[div]On Being Lawful Good[/div]Being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS.
12/01/2005|#251|[div]Belkar is Chaotic Evil[/div]
01/20/2005|#142|[div]Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil[/div][/table]

Characters

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Roy

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Haley

[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Durkon

07/27/2011|#798|[div]Durkon is Lawful Good[/div][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Elan

11/18/2011|#815|[div]Elan and Nale's Parentage[/div]How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Vaarsuvius

08/17/2011|#801|[div]V is True Neutral[/div][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Belkar

12/01/2005|#251|[div]Belkar is Chaotic Evil[/div][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Redcloak

01/23/2012|#830|[div]Redcloak is Evil[/div][/table]

{table=head]{colsp=3}

Xykon

[/table]

There, that looks neat.

[dps]

Alignment discussions seem to always pop up frequently on the forums so I don't think we should get rid of the first two.

True, but those quotes, especially #1, are far more about DnD in general than about OotS. The first one at least should be culled, I think, and probably the second one as well.

Durkon casting spells as a vampire is still a pretty recent development, I don't know if we should be so hasty in getting rid of it.

Yes, and as has been pointed out, was a subject of forum debate, which makes it exactly the type of quote which this thread was intended to record.

I would be okay if the comment on story and visuals got removed because that seems to touch on the creative process the Giant mentioned he doesn't want to be included. And it's more relevant to story-telling in general rather than just OotS. In the past, the Giant has frequently defended his decision to use stick figures and it's not a complaint or topic I see on the forums these days so I don't think it's necessary to have anymore.

Yeah, the thread that was posted in wasn't even really about OotS anyway. Cut it. Easiest call of the batch IMO.

The last one seems fine. It states in clear terms that the Giant does not want to introduce True Resurrection into the story, serving as a good counter to people who (still) claim that TR is a viable means to bring back characters.

Agree that this one should be kept.

[ThePhantasm]

Can I suggest something? In order to avoid confusion about the purpose of the thread, perhaps the link to the Google query for the Giant's comments should be included in the first post along with an explanation of what it's there for and that this index is only for the Giant's comments directly regarding OOTS. I think that would be helpful to keep this thread on-topic and minimally stalker-ish.

You are correct. This was also suggested a few pages back. The Google query will be included in the next update.

dps, I appreciate the input. It will be easier for me to keep track of stuff, however, if we hold off on discussing the removal nominees for now. As I suggested above, lets nominate quotes for removal, and discuss them on a case-by-case basis after the next update.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

OK, I think I’m going to have to chime in here.

I am fully in support of this project to document stuff I’ve said about OOTS so that people can stop arguing about it, but there has to be a line drawn. And I think that line is when I’m talking about other topics on other parts of this message board. Because otherwise, it’s like following me around with a tape recorder and everything I say about any topic becomes “on the record.” And that’s just creepy.

When I responded to that thread, I did so because I wanted to talk about that subject, not OOTS. But even as I did, a voice in the back of my head said, “They’ll probably link this for some reason in the index.” And here we are. Which means that ultimately, I can’t hold a casual conversation on the message board that I own—I can only make pronouncements that will be relinked and analyzed by the whole community. The end result of that will be me not talking about anything, because that makes me uncomfortable. So if your interest is in reading my thoughts on the creative process, linking them here is a surefire way to guarantee I never share such thoughts again.

If you want to follow everything I say about every topic because you like to read every word I write, I would ask that you do so under your own initiative. Please don’t just link here to every post I make. If it’s not about OOTS and/or it’s not in the OOTS board, I'd ask that it not be in the index.

Thanks, Rich.

Again, I'll reiterate for everyone:



Its a way of clarifying things in discussions, not an encyclopedia of everything the Giant has said. Frankly, the reason it takes me so long to update the index is that I have a huge volume of quotes to sift through each time, some even suggested repeatedly, and a lot of them prefaced by "this probably doesn't belong in the index *but* the Giant said it so I'm posting it here..."

Perhaps you should rename this thread then.

[Syncrogti]

Where do I go then to see the Giants comments on alignment and other topics? Is the google search the only option? I agree the title should be revised, despite the first page rules.

[ThePhantasm]

I fail to see why the title should be revised. An index in an academic book doesn't categorize every word, only central topics of interest. This has been the purpose of this index from the beginning. No one misunderstood the title back then. That misunderstanding has been a recent phenomenon.

This is an index, not a comprehensive encyclopedia.

[Silver Swift]

Ok, formalizing it then, I'm still not sure about the true resurrection one, so I'm leaving it in their for now, pending discussion.

I plan on going through the index later and look for quotes that are OotS related, but can still be removed. I'll then add them to this post.

Nominating for removal:

D&D's Alignment System: Thoughts on how it could be improved. (02/18/2012; #838)

On Being Lawful Good in D&D and the OOTS. (02/15/2006; #281)

Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells: A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells. (04/09/2013; #883)

Some Thoughts on Visuals and Story: People get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic. (02/18/2012; #838)

True Resurrection as a narrative-wrecking device, and an answer to the age-old "why didn't x character do y?" question. (9/07/2012; #862)

[ti'esar]

Of those quotes, I'll support removal of all but the third and fifth.

[Scow2]

I don't support removal of any of the Alignment quotes from this index. D&D 3.5's alignment system and The Giant's decision to incoporate it into The Order of the Stick are extremely controversial, and it's important to have the Giant's interpretations, vindications, and explanations of how Alignment works on-hand, especially given how often arguments along the lines of "D&D's alignment system is stupid and restrictive and should be thrown out" get tossed around.

[Syncrogti]

I fail to see why the title should be revised. An index in an academic book doesn't categorize every word, only central topics of interest. This has been the purpose of this index from the beginning. No one misunderstood the title back then. That misunderstanding has been a recent phenomenon.

This is an index, not a comprehensive encyclopedia.

I understand your position, and its certainly your prerogative, but I would suggest "Index of the Giant's Comments related to OOTS" whereas the current title implies that the thread is an index of his comments.

[ThePhantasm]

I understand your position, and its certainly your prerogative, but I would suggest "Index of the Giant's Comments related to OOTS" whereas the current title implies that the thread is an index of his comments.

This is unnecessary for a number of reasons.

1) Just taking a few seconds to look at the index tells you that it doesn't include all the Giant's comments ever.

2) The index is in the OOTS subforum, limiting its range and scope to the strip itself.

Thus, the "related to OOTS" add-on would be redundant and unneeded. The lack of the add-on won't confuse anyone, because the index itself is clear. If people actually take the time to read it, that is, which is what they should do before they post in this thread to begin with.

[FujinAkari]

Is there a reason you guys are debating the merits of comments even after Phantasm explicitly asked you not too?