Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[userpay]

Well my current army has the advancing units in transports so in theory supporting advancing thunderwolf calvary shouldn't be an issue. I might drop one of my two hqs for scouts or buffing my troop choices...

[lord_khaine]

Eldar: Characters, accept for the phoenixlord since they are T4 IIRC

You did forget both the Avatar and Eldrath here.

[Trixie]

You did forget both the Avatar and Eldrath here.

Or, rather, he subtly hinted no one takes them, or Phoenix Lords, except in very situational and fluffy lists

[ArqArturo]

I have a question, regarding the necrons.

Entropic touch pretty much destroys your armor, but let's say you use Feel No Pain on a unit affected by entropic touch, does the unit still loses armor saves, or does he not?.

[Provengreil]

codex says unsaved wounds, so FNP saves would let you keep your armor. As far as entropic touch an armor saves is concerned, I suspect it's geared mostly towards monstrous creatures.

[Squark]

I have a question, regarding the necrons.

Entropic touch pretty much destroys your armor, but let's say you use Feel No Pain on a unit affected by entropic touch, does the unit still loses armor saves, or does he not?.

Feel no Pain should still work after your armor is destroyed, as long as the attack doesn't prevent feel no pain for other reasons (It's AP 1 or 2, from a power weapon, would cause Instant Death because of High Strength, or the attack just doesn't allow armor saves), for the same reason it works even if, for example, a creature has a 5+ save and is trying to save against an AP 5 weapon. It won't get an armor save, but since an armor save is still possible against such an attack, the creature will still get to use Feel no pain.


Could be wrong about though.

[Trixie]

Feel no Pain should still work after your armor is destroyed, as long as the attack doesn't prevent feel no pain for other reasons (It's AP 1 or 2, from a power weapon, would cause Instant Death because of High Strength, or the attack just doesn't allow armor saves), for the same reason it works even if, for example, a creature has a 5+ save and is trying to save against an AP 5 weapon. It won't get an armor save, but since an armor save is still possible against such an attack, the creature will still get to use Feel no pain.

Nope, I think he is asking if FNP stops the armour from being destroyed. Since you have to wound first, and FNP makes wounds 'go away' I think yes, it could...

Another way to beat them in cc: Tervigon termagant spam.
The enemy will charge in on one unit, whipe it out. Then you will charge the wolves with some gant units. Thanks to the tervigons the wound on 4+ and strike at the sametime as the wolves. You will propperbly lose your units due to ''no retreat'', but the wolves will have taken some serious beating.

Only if you manage to get them in range of the FC/Poisong bubble, no?

Properly tooled up Purifiers/Paladins, maybe?

Finding them in Ork/Necron Codex would be kind of hard, though :P

The above mention of Grey Knights segues nicely into the question I was meaning to ask. What do you think is the optimal armament for a Purifier squad that's being carried across the battlefield on board of a Land Raider? I'd originally thought of going with something like "masterful hammer for the Knight of the Flame, 1-2 further hammers, one staff, 6-7 halberds", for maximum close combat potential, but now I've started wondering whether this wasn't overkill on one hand and not generally useful on the other, and whether I shouldn't pack more psycannons instead. And if so, how many psycannons? 4? But that might cut heavily into the Purifiers close combat abilities. Just 2? 4 after all? None?

Land Raider = no firing points. You want Psycannons? Take 5 purgators instead.

Now, I think LR is wasted on Purifiers, but... Assuming 10 models: 9x Halberd, 1x Hammer. Or just 10 Halberds, since you should be able to dictate combats, but extra card you can play is always useful. If you want Stave, sacrifice Halberd to put it on Knight of the Flame, it's really the only place it's good on.

But, I'd seriously consider 8 Terminators, 6x Halberd, 1x Banner, 1x Hammer instead, almost the same number of attacks and are better against anything that isn't horde, IMHO.

I was going to post the list in which this was supposed to be used to provide some context, but I'm away from either codex or a written down list, and I find my memory regarding what exactly I had included at which points total is a bit confused, so I guess I'll post that list (with a request for evaluation) later.

It would be useful, yes :P

neither. take a thunderwolf cavalry 3 strong and load them up with 3 storm shields, a power fist, a meltabomb, and play musical wounds. works unbelieveably well, especially if you run 6 inches in one of your first two turns.

Except, that many shields is serious waste of points and attacks. Getting 4th TW is cheaper, and better in 90% of the cases. I'd go with just one, two max on 5 TW squad...

[IthilanorStPete]

Ok, I revamped my list. I took into consideration the more relevant criticisms - mixing up the missile launcher and heavy bolter Long Fangs most notably, and dropping the Wolf Guard. Instead, I switched the Rune Priest to having a jump pack, added a Wolf Priest with jump pack, and took some Skyclaws for them to go with. Here's what it looks like now:

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Rune Priest - 145 pts
-Jump pack, Wolftooth necklace, Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Wolf Priest - 125 pts
-Jump pack

Grey Hunters (x10) - 220 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 225 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 220 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Skyclaws (x10) - 210 pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Power sword

Land Speeder - 100 pts
-Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher

Long Fangs (x6) - 130 pts
-3xMissile launchers, 2xHeavy bolters

Long Fangs (x6) - 125 pts
-2xMissile launchers, 3xHeavy bolters

Notes:
-The Land Speeder's there to fill out points, and to provide a bit more melta...I'm kind of worried about heavy armor with this list.
-I gave the Rune Priest a wolftooth necklace since he'll be more involved in close combat now, and hitting with his force weapon is kind of important.
-Not having an invuln save on the Rune Priest is worrisome.
-Lack of Wolf Guard with the Grey Hunters means there's a pretty good chance of Counter-attack failing. I really want the two special weapons, but I don't know if it's worth the lack of Wolf Guard.

[BoSheck]

Ok, I revamped my list. I took into consideration the more relevant criticisms - mixing up the missile launcher and heavy bolter Long Fangs most notably, and dropping the Wolf Guard. Instead, I switched the Rune Priest to having a jump pack, added a Wolf Priest with jump pack, and took some Skyclaws for them to go with. Here's what it looks like now:

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Rune Priest - 145 pts
-Jump pack, Wolftooth necklace, Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Wolf Priest - 125 pts
-Jump pack

Grey Hunters (x10) - 220 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 225 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 220 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Skyclaws (x10) - 210 pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Power sword

Land Speeder - 100 pts
-Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher

Long Fangs (x6) - 130 pts
-3xMissile launchers, 2xHeavy bolters

Long Fangs (x6) - 125 pts
-2xMissile launchers, 3xHeavy bolters

Notes:
-The Land Speeder's there to fill out points, and to provide a bit more melta...I'm kind of worried about heavy armor with this list.
-I gave the Rune Priest a wolftooth necklace since he'll be more involved in close combat now, and hitting with his force weapon is kind of important.
-Not having an invuln save on the Rune Priest is worrisome.
-Lack of Wolf Guard with the Grey Hunters means there's a pretty good chance of Counter-attack failing. I really want the two special weapons, but I don't know if it's worth the lack of Wolf Guard.

That looks a lot better. I haven't played with skyclaws before so I can't comment on them. It looks like they'll fit well into your list. You might want to consider purchasing a saga for one of your independent characters.

Edit: Nevermind the saga, so much. Lot of better things to think about.

As far as fitting wolf guard in goes, if you cut the power weapons and a couple of the wulfen out of your grey hunter squads you could get them. You don't even have to cut them all if you're that attatched to the idea.

For example: Grey Hunters (x10) - 220 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

9x Grey hunters, 1x meltagun +pod : 175
Wolf guard w/ combi melta + power FIST: 43
Total cost: 218

Whaaaaat. Remember: Wolf guard get special melee weapons at a discount. The unit is 208 with a sword on the WG instead of a fist (especially useful if your models are already put together and thats what you're getting at). You can even pare it down to 8x grey hunters + a wolf guard and keep your mark of the wulfen guy AND get a power fist AND come out 2 points ahead on each unit...which is almost enough to buy meltabombs or almost saga of the hunter for your Wolf Priest. (Or drop enough wulfens to fit a power fist jump packin' wolf guard in with those skyclaws).

A couple of other things to consider in the future: giving your long fangs drop pods. Not essential, but this ensures that every grey hunter pack comes on turn 1.

Whatever you end up doing, may Russ walk with you! Go make some heads roll and come give us the tale of it!

[lord_khaine]

Or, rather, he subtly hinted no one takes them, or Phoenix Lords, except in very situational and fluffy lists

Nahh, that cant be true, if you look though the list of battle reports, you can see that they show up in more than 50% of the battles, and there are even one with both the Avatar, a Phoenix lord as well as the greatest Eldar psyker who ever lived

[Trixie]

Rune Priest - 145 pts
-Jump pack, Wolftooth necklace, Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Wolf Priest - 125 pts
-Jump pack

Skyclaws (x10) - 210 pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Power sword

Skyclaws are... Very underwhelming, though. Also, Priest with LL is much better fit to Long Fang squad.

Land Speeder - 100 pts
-Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher

As the only vehicle, being Av 10 it's not going to live long. I'd take small squad of Wolf Guard with Combi-weapons instead.

Long Fangs (x6) - 130 pts
-3xMissile launchers, 2xHeavy bolters

Long Fangs (x6) - 125 pts
-2xMissile launchers, 3xHeavy bolters

Wait, why did you mix them?

You're combining weapons with different range and purpose, plus, robbing yourself of the possibility to off Sergeant first.

[Provengreil]

Wait, why did you mix them?

You're combining weapons with different range and purpose, plus, robbing yourself of the possibility to off Sergeant first.

Offing the sarge removes split fire capability, which is one of the most broken awesome things about the squad. I would rather lose a couple launchers first, if I played wolves. Split firing is powerful.

this way he can take wounds on either heavy weapon squad, and be able to choose which bit he needs least on the squad: rockets, anti-infantry, or the capability to split fire. BTW, that split fire stuff means that if all heavy bolters were going to fire at 30 'ard boyz, and the missiles at some trukks, this can still happen, but the opponent cannot specifically target all the missile launchers or heavy bolters. A guardsman tide would take your heavy bolter squad down fast, while a blood angels razorback list will try to get rid of the launchers.

[Winterwind]

Land Raider = no firing points. You want Psycannons? Take 5 purgators instead.

It's like this - I had originally intended to play them as a pure close combat squad, with just enough Hammers to optionally throw them at a vehicle or whatever if necessary, but generally just there to tear enemy infantry, no matter how elite, into shreds.

A couple weeks ago, though, I played this game where my Eldar went alongside the new Necrons against Blood Angels and Dark Eldar. That was in Berlin, i.e., far, far, far away from where I normally live and play, and thus also way outside of my usual metagame. Which meant that, for the first time ever, I went up against something I'd so far only heard of in these threads here - a pure Blood Angels Razorspam list. As in, his army consisted only of Mephiston, a Furioso Scriptor, two Dakka-Preds, and then 5-6 Lasplas-Razorbacks. My Eldar are usually quite strong in my metagame, but were completely unprepared to go against something like that. Which has left me wondering whether my original draft for my Grey Knights didn't have too much of a weakness against a list like that as well - not enough anti-vehicle firepower, too much reliance on 'Hammers helping out with destroying vehicles, etc.

This is why I started wondering whether the Purifiers wouldn't be more effective (and more general purpose) if they had Psycannons. Sure they cannot use them while being transported, but they can fire them as soon as they disembark and open up with a Psycannon salvo at the enemy before charging into battle, which should offset the loss in close combat power at least some - and it would make them much more useful against a vehicle heavy list. I don't know what I go up against beforehand, after all, and I don't tailor my lists to my opponents, so some degree of general usefulness is required.

But, not having played Grey Knights yet (or anything else with a 5th edition codex, for that matter), and not being that savvy in WH40k anyhow, I'm not sure what ultimately makes sense and what doesn't. Maybe the loss of close combat power by taking Psycannons would be too large and not taking any is the only intelligent thing to do. Maybe not taking 4 Psycannons would be the most stupid thing I could do. Maybe the optimum thing would be to just take 2 and leave it at that. I just don't know...

Now, I think LR is wasted on Purifiers, but... Assuming 10 models: 9x Halberd, 1x Hammer. Or just 10 Halberds, since you should be able to dictate combats, but extra card you can play is always useful.

That sounds incredibly risky to me. One enemy Dreadnought (or other walker) or C'Tan, and the entire squad would be eradicated, if they had no Hammers. Plus, isn't that a bit unnecessary overspecialization? They can destroy just about any enemy in close combat anyway without taking losses; one or two of them striking later shouldn't really change much about that, I'd think, while adding so much when high Strength is required for a change...

If you want Stave, sacrifice Halberd to put it on Knight of the Flame, it's really the only place it's good on.

Why, what difference does it make on which model the Stave is? Indeed, the Knight of the Flame seems like the least suitable model for the Stave, as all putting the Stave on him accomplishes is that if the squad suffers a Perils of the Warp attack, the costly Stave will be removed first. It's not like the Stave being Masterful allows you to reroll your saves or anything, after all, nor as if it would protect him against the Perils of the Warp...

But, I'd seriously consider 8 Terminators, 6x Halberd, 1x Banner, 1x Hammer instead, almost the same number of attacks and are better against anything that isn't horde, IMHO.

Honestly, I've always thought that, without fail, Grey Knight Terminators were invariably the inferior choice to their power-suit wearing counterparts. One Terminator costs the same as two Grey Knights, and has the equal total number of attacks, only half the firepower, and while he has 2+/5++ saves, he has only one Wound, rather than two. A similar thing applies to Purifiers versus Paladins - a Paladin costs about as much as two Purifiers, has the same number of Wounds as the two of them, superior saves, but only half as much firepower and half as many attacks (on top of having a much worse psychic power).

Plus, 8 Terminators would require a LR Crusader - I'd been thinking of going with a Redeemer instead. Which, incidentally, is another thing I wanted advice on. Is there some consensus on which Land Raider variant is preferable?

It would be useful, yes :P

Okay, so, what I was thinking of was something like this:

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HQ

Inquisitor Coteaz

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
- conversion beam
- servo armour
- 3 servo skulls


ELITE

Purifiers (x10)
- masterful hammer and digital weapons on Knight of the Flame
- 1 hammer
- 1 stave
- 7 halberds
- psybolt ammo


TROOPS

Strike Squad (x10)
- masterful hammer on Justicar
- 2 psycannons
- psybolt ammo
---Razorback (twin-linked assault cannon, psybolt ammo, searchlights)

Inquisitorial Retinue (x11)
- 8 psykers
- 3 servitors with plasma cannons
---Chimera (multilaser, heavy bolter, searchlights)


HEAVY SUPPORT

Land Raider Redeemer
- multimelter
- psybolt ammo
- searchlights

The above adds up to about 1300, leaving 200 points for further upgrades or additional units. I was thinking of a Dreadnought, maybe.

Completely apart from the above discussion, I would much appreciate some commentary on the list itself, too, and advice on how I could improve it (ideally without changing it too much).
I realize Coteaz with only a single squad of Inquisitorial Retinue is a bit overkill; at higher point cost I intend to use a 7 Deathcult Assassin, 5 Crusader in a Storm Raven or a second Land Raider.

[lord_khaine]

Well Winter, i dont play GK myself, but one of the better players in my local club ran a list that seemed to work quite fine.

He had a librarian with stealth and warp rift babysitting a Vindicare assasin and a couple of dakka dreads, while at the same time sending a Storm raven loadet up with nasty stuff off towards the opponent.

And well, you did mention wishing more anti-vehichle firepower, and a vindicare with a +2 cover save, as well as a couple of dakka dreads with a 3+ save, does provide a seriously resilient firebase that can blow up both light and heavy mech.

[Tome]

Why, what difference does it make on which model the Stave is? Indeed, the Knight of the Flame seems like the least suitable model for the Stave, as all putting the Stave on him accomplishes is that if the squad suffers a Perils of the Warp attack, the costly Stave will be removed first. It's not like the Stave being Masterful allows you to reroll your saves or anything, after all, nor as if it would protect him against the Perils of the Warp...

Actually, the stave does apply versus Perils, assuming that the perils roll happens in close combat. And guess where you're going to be using either of the psychic powers available to Purifiers? That's right, in close combat.

And yeah, if you want anti-mech: Psycannons on everything, Psyrifleman Dreads and Vindicares.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, why did you mix them?

You're combining weapons with different range and purpose, plus, robbing yourself of the possibility to off Sergeant first.

Because split fire. The reason mixing heavy weapons is bad is because you can't shoot them at different things. Well Space Wolves can.

[Cheesegear]

Because split fire. The reason mixing heavy weapons is bad is because you can't shoot them at different things. Well Space Wolves can.

But Heavy Bolters are bad. Due to the way that Blast markers work, you're probably hitting between 3-5 Infantry models with Frag Missiles anyway. Heavy Bolters, needing to roll To Hit are only hitting 1-2.

Why Missiles are awesome is because of Split Fire, and for the ability to do two different things anyway. Nothing else is really worth it on Long Fangs because Missiles make the most out of SF.

[Trixie]

Offing the sarge removes split fire capability, which is one of the most broken awesome things about the squad. I would rather lose a couple launchers first, if I played wolves. Split firing is powerful.

It's like saying: tanks are powerful, so let's cut out engine and main gun, nothing will change, right?

this way he can take wounds on either heavy weapon squad, and be able to choose which bit he needs least on the squad: rockets, anti-infantry, or the capability to split fire. BTW, that split fire stuff means that if all heavy bolters were going to fire at 30 'ard boyz, and the missiles at some trukks, this can still happen, but the opponent cannot specifically target all the missile launchers or heavy bolters. A guardsman tide would take your heavy bolter squad down fast, while a blood angels razorback list will try to get rid of the launchers.

Except, such mishmash reduces the effectiveness of damaged part to pretty much zero. Long Fang squads are too small. That's why I advocate keeping them together - consider 5 models, 1 sarge and 4 ML. If you have to remove two, you keep 3 ML, swill reasonable unit. 1 sarge, 2 ML, 2HB, hoverer, after removing two models have zero reason to split fire, 1 gun firing on anything it pointless, almost, regardless of what you remove. No, I consider that inefficient, too much in fact. If you take HBs, you take 5 of them and off the sarge first, otherwise it's ML all the way.

This is why I started wondering whether the Purifiers wouldn't be more effective (and more general purpose) if they had Psycannons. Sure they cannot use them while being transported, but they can fire them as soon as they disembark and open up with a Psycannon salvo at the enemy before charging into battle, which should offset the loss in close combat power at least some - and it would make them much more useful against a vehicle heavy list. I don't know what I go up against beforehand, after all, and I don't tailor my lists to my opponents, so some degree of general usefulness is required.

That's not general purpose. That's waste of potential. I mentioned Purgators because little will survive salvo of 4 psycannons (or won't run out of CC range) - meaning, all CC gear on Purifiers is now useless, points spent on things that won't see play. What's more, such models will bring average price per model in unit to 35+ points, meaning each and every loss will hurt as much as loss of 2.5 models to SW or Chaos Marines. No, IMHO, you need to keep costs down, keep efficiency up.

But, not having played Grey Knights yet (or anything else with a 5th edition codex, for that matter), and not being that savvy in WH40k anyhow, I'm not sure what ultimately makes sense and what doesn't. Maybe the loss of close combat power by taking Psycannons would be too large and not taking any is the only intelligent thing to do. Maybe not taking 4 Psycannons would be the most stupid thing I could do. Maybe the optimum thing would be to just take 2 and leave it at that. I just don't know...

The stupid thing here is bringing your Purifiers to Terminator-level costs with toys that won't be used in every situation, meaning less efficiency, while they're still T4 3+ models. They will drop like flies to unexpected threats. No, in Codex GK keeping more bodies is more important than bling, more so than in other Coodices.

That sounds incredibly risky to me. One enemy Dreadnought (or other walker) or C'Tan, and the entire squad would be eradicated, if they had no Hammers. Plus, isn't that a bit unnecessary overspecialization? They can destroy just about any enemy in close combat anyway without taking losses; one or two of them striking later shouldn't really change much about that, I'd think, while adding so much when high Strength is required for a change...

Dreadnought? You still have Krak grenades. So, IMHO, 1 Hammer is enough.

C'tan? Seriously, you don't fight it in CC. T7 Eternal Warrior with 4++ save is virtually tailored to beat any GK unit in CC, you shoot it instead.

Why, what difference does it make on which model the Stave is? Indeed, the Knight of the Flame seems like the least suitable model for the Stave, as all putting the Stave on him accomplishes is that if the squad suffers a Perils of the Warp attack, the costly Stave will be removed first. It's not like the Stave being Masterful allows you to reroll your saves or anything, after all, nor as if it would protect him against the Perils of the Warp...

What difference? How about 2++ save, the best in WH40K, on model that tests for Perils, always?

Honestly, I've always thought that, without fail, Grey Knight Terminators were invariably the inferior choice to their power-suit wearing counterparts. One Terminator costs the same as two Grey Knights, and has the equal total number of attacks, only half the firepower, and while he has 2+/5++ saves, he has only one Wound, rather than two. A similar thing applies to Purifiers versus Paladins - a Paladin costs about as much as two Purifiers, has the same number of Wounds as the two of them, superior saves, but only half as much firepower and half as many attacks (on top of having a much worse psychic power).

Except, I said Banner. Now, they're immune to anti-psyker defences, 4 attacks on charge, ++ save, is scoring, and is generally better against anything that isn't horde than Purifiers - and cheaper, to boot.

Plus, 8 Terminators would require a LR Crusader - I'd been thinking of going with a Redeemer instead. Which, incidentally, is another thing I wanted advice on. Is there some consensus on which Land Raider variant is preferable?

Redeemers aren't that good, driving inside half-melta range is never good idea.

The above adds up to about 1300, leaving 200 points for further upgrades or additional units. I was thinking of a Dreadnought, maybe.

You have virtually no long range support. You should take 2, at least.

Completely apart from the above discussion, I would much appreciate some commentary on the list itself, too, and advice on how I could improve it (ideally without changing it too much).

How much is too much?

I found Malleus Inquisitor with Psycannon is excellent, but he pretty much requires Terminators (or footslogging unit) to work.

Maybe you should consider replacing Coteaz with Brotherhood Champion?

[Provengreil]

It's like saying: tanks are powerful, so let's cut out engine and main gun, nothing will change, right?

not it isn't. you remove the engine and main gun of a tank and it's almost helpless. you remove a missile launcher and a heavy bolter from one of these mixed squads and they still can take out vehicles while still putting out some anti-infantry fire. infantry fight until they run or die, tanks are easy to stop.

Except, such mishmash reduces the effectiveness of damaged part to pretty much zero. Long Fang squads are too small. That's why I advocate keeping them together - consider 5 models, 1 sarge and 4 ML. If you have to remove two, you keep 3 ML, swill reasonable unit. 1 sarge, 2 ML, 2HB, hoverer, after removing two models have zero reason to split fire, 1 gun firing on anything it pointless, almost, regardless of what you remove. No, I consider that inefficient, too much in fact. If you take HBs, you take 5 of them and off the sarge first, otherwise it's ML all the way.

This reply got a little wall of text-ish, so spoilered.

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blatantly false. you know what reduces the effectiveness of a unit to 0? killing it. a lone missile launcher can still wreak untold havoc on an army in the right circumstances, I've seen it. It requires luck, to be sure, but you can't discount units that are damaged but not dead yet, especially heavy weapon users.

and the thing is this: rare is the match in which missile launchers and heavy bolters are equal in value. take 2 extreme examples:

1. blood angels razorback spam.

2. a guardsman tide with a lot of heavy weapon teams.

First lets consider these scenarios with 2 longfang squads, one with 5 heavy bolters and one with 5 missile launchers.

1. the razorbacks, whether they go first or second, are gonna go after the launchers every time. why? because the heavy bolters need 6s to glance, and that's just not enough with the amount of razorbacks a blood angels list can pack. best case scenario is 2 razorbacks down + 2 more glanced into uselessness, possibly wrecked, if every shot goes well, which they won't. then the angels go and direct every shot they can at the missile launchers because those things can take out the lightly armored razorbacks with ease. as a general rule, not much survives an entire enemy shooting phase directed at one unit, and 6 guys with 1 wound and 3+ armor are not the exceptions. then you're left with few if any efficient ways to deal with all those razorbacks(meltas can take a couple more, but they'll get assaulted by the guys inside).

2. So the guard have these autocannons and you have the longfang squad types. which one is gonna get blasted away by every autocannon in range first? easy, the heavy bolters. why? 15 shots hitting on 3s and killing on 2s for every guardsman on the field is more threatening than 5 missiles. even the blasts are not as threatening as you seem to think; scatter dice hit about half as much as straight BS 4, will not likely catch more than 3 people at once, wound with less reliability, and allow armor saves. they can instant death the autocannons, sure, but against a guardsman tide 5 kills/turn with your heavy weapon troops is underwhelming at the best of times.

now let's consider mixed squads, a 3/2 and 2/3. we have the same number of each type of weapon, just in different areas.

1. the razorbacks have a clear target again, but less so: even if they wipe the first 6 guys, the won't wipe the second. once the first squad is dead, there are still at least 2 missile launchers on the field, and you WILL want to split fire. the reason being that they are each shooting a razorback, so you might as well try to take two down. it might happen, and if one misses, then frankly it wasn't gonna do much anyway now was it? your heavy bolters are now signed up as ablative wounds, unfortunately, but now they serve a purpose greater than plinking of armor all day. things get even better for the wolves if they go first; they can now shoot a krak missile at up to FOUR razorbacks. even if none of them actually score a kill, that's a lot more potential than the same number of krak missiles at 2 targets.

2. again, the guard have to take out 12 models to get all the heavy bolters, not 6. also, failure for them is even worse than for the angels; one squad still standing when the wolves start shooting probably means 2 full squads of heavy weapon teams, give or take a model. and if the wolves can get rid of all the heavy weapon teams efficiently, their grey hunters and whatever else they brought will more than match the guard in melee. again things get really nice really fast for the wolves if they go first; 3 krak missiles at one heavy weapons squad to wipe it, the 2 bolters split fire to another and get rid of a couple autocannons, and the second squad does pretty much the same thing.

All told, missile launchers are great but the exact makeup of the field determines what the best weapon to be holding at any time actually is, so by mixing these weapons you severely limit your opponent's ability to remove the more threatening ones.

tldr, tactics matter. options matter. maximizing the number of directions you can apply your most effective guns matters. this is best accomplished with the split squads.

[Ninjaman]

I find it funny how much more action there is on this one than the fantasy and models thread.

[Etcetera]

I find it funny how much more action there is on this one than the fantasy and models thread.

Don't underestimate the draw of jetpacks and shiny tanks and rocket launchers.
Or numbercrunching them, at least.

[Timberwolf]

I had a good game today against Daemons. We drew, but killing Fateweaver with a squad of scouts was definately a highlight.

[Ninjaman]

I had a good game today against Daemons. We drew, but killing Fateweaver with a squad of scouts was definately a highlight.

Killing or making him flee?

[Timberwolf]

Killing him. Had him on 2 wounds, everything hit (for a change), 4 wounds, 2 failed rerolled saves

[Winterwind]

Actually, the stave does apply versus Perils, assuming that the perils roll happens in close combat. And guess where you're going to be using either of the psychic powers available to Purifiers? That's right, in close combat.

Ohh... I'd thought the Stave only protected against close combat attacks. Checking the FAQ now, I see you're right. Okay, makes perfect sense, then.

And yeah, if you want anti-mech: Psycannons on everything, Psyrifleman Dreads and Vindicares.

That's actually another thing I've been meaning to ask - dows Rifleman Dread refer to a dread with Autocannons, or with Assault Cannons? I'm assuming the former?

That's not general purpose. That's waste of potential. I mentioned Purgators because little will survive salvo of 4 psycannons (or won't run out of CC range) - meaning, all CC gear on Purifiers is now useless, points spent on things that won't see play. What's more, such models will bring average price per model in unit to 35+ points, meaning each and every loss will hurt as much as loss of 2.5 models to SW or Chaos Marines. No, IMHO, you need to keep costs down, keep efficiency up.

You really think if they have 4 psycannons they will shoot everything to death so hard they will never get into close combat?

Okay, yeah, that makes sense, then. So, Purifiers only for close combat, then.

The stupid thing here is bringing your Purifiers to Terminator-level costs with toys that won't be used in every situation, meaning less efficiency, while they're still T4 3+ models. They will drop like flies to unexpected threats. No, in Codex GK keeping more bodies is more important than bling, more so than in other Coodices.

Okay, fair enough.

Dreadnought? You still have Krak grenades. So, IMHO, 1 Hammer is enough.

Except if it's not a Grey Knight Dread, it's gonna have armour 13.

C'tan? Seriously, you don't fight it in CC. T7 Eternal Warrior with 4++ save is virtually tailored to beat any GK unit in CC, you shoot it instead.

Okay, point conceded.

What difference? How about 2++ save, the best in WH40K, on model that tests for Perils, always?

See above. Didn't think it would work. Considering it does, yeah, that makes perfect sense, then.

Except, I said Banner. Now, they're immune to anti-psyker defences, 4 attacks on charge, ++ save, is scoring, and is generally better against anything that isn't horde than Purifiers - and cheaper, to boot.

Mmmm... I have to say, while I really like Purifiers conceptually and optically, that is a good argument. I guess I really will get a box of Termies or two. All the better, I always wanted to give Termies a try in some army or another.

Redeemers aren't that good, driving inside half-melta range is never good idea.

Well, it's not like Crusaders do all that much more regardless of what range they are at!

You have virtually no long range support. You should take 2, at least.

That'll eat up all Heavy Support slots, then, but sure - I wanted to make this moderately vehicle heavy anyway (though I was thinking more of mechanized infantry than actual combat vehicles). Autocannons, Assault Cannons or Lascannons?

How much is too much?

I found Malleus Inquisitor with Psycannon is excellent, but he pretty much requires Terminators (or footslogging unit) to work.

Maybe you should consider replacing Coteaz with Brotherhood Champion?

Well, I'll put it this way - I already have the Strike Squad assembled and mostly painted, have the Razorback assembled and half-way painted, and have the Inquisitorial Retinue and their Chimera assembled. So, I'd rather like to use these. I also have further 10 Grey Knights lying around here, waiting to be assembled (these were to be turned into these Purifiers), and the Land Raider, not assembled yet, either. Oh, and I have a box of Dark Eldar Wyches lying around somewhere which I intend to convert into Deathcult Assassins. So, the use of these Grey Knights, the exact kind of Land Raider, and further additions to the army are still open.

[lord_khaine]

That'll eat up all Heavy Support slots, then, but sure - I wanted to make this moderately vehicle heavy anyway (though I was thinking more of mechanized infantry than actual combat vehicles). Autocannons, Assault Cannons or Lascannons?

As i recall, with Psybolt ammo assult cannons gives the best change of destroying heavy armor targets, but Auto cannons just have a superior range, and are as i recall also twin-linked, against anything but armor 14 those will proberly serve you better.

If people in your metagame like AV 14 vehicles, then the Vindicare might be a fun choice for you ( gogo 4d6 on armor penetration rolls, with rending )

[Hootman]

scatter dice hit about half as much as straight BS 4

Normally I might just chalk up this discussion to being "Just, like, your opinion, man", as I personally love my Missile Devastators. However, I did the math, and you are mistaken here (except perhaps in hyperbole).

Spoiler

Show

Assuming BS 4, a small blast will hit a standard 1" target just over 61% of the time, and is highly likely to catch at least two enemies (and perhaps 3) under itself, totalling 4.9-7.3 hits per squad of 4 ML's. The same unit with heavy bolters will score an average of 8 hits, which I admit is clearly more if your opponent isn't packed together like sardines. I personally believe that the multi-function purpose of the missiles, however, greatly makes up for this, especially considering that anything that moves in hordes should have a 4 or 5+ cover save anyways (making the AP4 of the heavy bolter irrelevant). Kustom Force Fields for Orks. Venomthropes for Nids. And Guard have to rely on terrain and Chimera-walls, but that works at least as well most of the time anyways, in my experience.

Fun related fact: A single small blast template can hit a rough max of 13 models. True story. This SHOULDN'T ever happen, unless your opponent deep strikes large units of lesser daemons and forget to run or assault with them immediately...somehow.

So, yeah, there's that.

Now, moving on to something I myself have been wondering: which IG special characters do people consider worth their points, and under what conditions (if any)? I've been looking to put together a small IG force using Steel Legion models, and I'm considering trying to convert up some of the special characters to use with my boys, but I don't know which ones are more "worth it".

Bastonne and Harker both look pretty slick, even if Harker arbitrarily prevent you from taking Grenadiers, which would probably be good on a squad that's always in motion. I'm thinking grenade launchers to keep in motion with strong shorts while staying out of assault range? Bastonne can Order himself around, which would make a unit of meltavets cry with happiness right before they got ruined by the counter-fire next turn. Barring meltavets, maybe snipers and a heavy weapons team could be pretty good? That morale recovery trick looks pretty good for getting back on that objective you just got shot off of, and if you know the enemy is gunnig for you, he'll just shout "INCOMING!" and everybody hits the deck with a 2+ Cover save (because if you're not putting home objectives in cover, especially with Imperial Guard, what the hell ARE you doing?)

Colonel Straken is The Man, but he seems to really need to get to the front line and assault things, which doesn't work so well with IG. Mount him in a Chimera or Gunship, race to the front lines, use meltas and that Iron Hand of his to wreck anything you can reach? Or would you call him more of a "counter-charge" unit that stays near something valuable, firing medium or long range plinks at things until something unlucky wanders within his range?

Marbo is the crazy loner who shows up and gets himself instantly killed about as often as he annialates his target, from what I hear, but I seem to recall someone saying he was worth it in lower points games (which, conveniently, is what I'm building for).

What do other people think?

[Renegade Paladin]

The only one I've ever used is Harker, so I can get some outflanking scoring going on without gunships in the army. Can't comment on the rest, though Theoryhammer says Bastonne with meltavets in a Valkyrie/Vendetta is good.

[Provengreil]

Marbo's pretty balls-awesome in my experience. even in high point matches, taking out target anything with little chance of failure is a really good deal. the only thing you have to weigh him against is whatever else would have gone in that slot, which is why people say he shines in lower point matches. Also, if you can have him show up in cover, he's harder to deal with than normal guardsmen because he can actually do something in assault.

[Timberwolf]

Only played against him once, and the demo charge missed and then I killed him dead. In a kill point game, take anything else. In anything else, cheap, fun and awesome, what's not to like ?