Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Provengreil]

Wait what? *reads* ah. Cool. Bleedin' marines.

meh. As a marine player, I can tell you that it falls a bit short when you realize you have to be allowed to make the check in the first place, meaning you lot models, and usually more than one. Hit and run is often the more preferable rule for pulling out.

[Renegade Paladin]

Going back to a topic from the last thread, I just got Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2e last night after shenanigans with my local game store's distributor holding up my order for two weeks. To quote myself:

If Lucius drop pods exist and are 40k-legal at that price, I call shenanigans. You'd buy that every time.

Upon having the book now, ehhh... not as bad as I thought. At 65 points apiece for a Dreadnought drop pod with the Assault Vehicle rule they're still very good, but the Dreadnought has to take a dangerous terrain test if it elects to assault from the pod, and Blood Angels can't take them. (My nightmare scenario with those existing out there in the game was a blood talon Furioso doing its thing out of one.)

Also on the topic of the book, the Vulcan mega-bolter is widely considered a trap on Titans and the Baneblade chassis (see Stormlord), but how about the Macharius Vulcan? How cheap does the platform have to get before the weapon is worth the cost? After all, at AP3 it's no Punisher cannon. But then again, the designers apparently consider it worth an 80 point price increase from the twin battle cannon-armed base model, so...

Also, the Tauros Venator can no longer take two HK missiles.

[Timberwolf]

Upon having the book now, ehhh... not as bad as I thought. At 65 points apiece for a Dreadnought drop pod with the Assault Vehicle rule they're still very good, but the Dreadnought has to take a dangerous terrain test if it elects to assault from the pod, and Blood Angels can't take them. (My nightmare scenario with those existing out there in the game was a blood talon Furioso doing its thing out of one.)

We obviously really annoyed the AdMech over the Baal Predator. Apocalypse only for me

[Timberwolf]

Upon having the book now, ehhh... not as bad as I thought. At 65 points apiece for a Dreadnought drop pod with the Assault Vehicle rule they're still very good, but the Dreadnought has to take a dangerous terrain test if it elects to assault from the pod, and Blood Angels can't take them. (My nightmare scenario with those existing out there in the game was a blood talon Furioso doing its thing out of one.)

We obviously really annoyed the AdMech over the Baal Predator. Apocalypse only for me

[Penguinizer]

Also on the topic of the book, the Vulcan mega-bolter is widely considered a trap on Titans and the Baneblade chassis (see Stormlord), but how about the Macharius Vulcan? How cheap does the platform have to get before the weapon is worth the cost? After all, at AP3 it's no Punisher cannon. But then again, the designers apparently consider it worth an 80 point price increase from the twin battle cannon-armed base model, so...

Also, the Tauros Venator can no longer take two HK missiles.

I'm overall not a fan of the Macharius. It's like a leettle babby Baneblade that just isn't that impressive. Overall though I'm not a huge fan of it. Then again, it's probably better than the battle-cannons.

As for titan weapons, I still love the Melta Cannon and Laser Destructor. The str 7 ap 3 barrage is also nice.

[Trixie]

You can take Zahndrekh without Obyron, but don't take Obyron without Zahndrekh. In fact, spend 160 points on a Destroyer Lord if you really want to be killing things. Or, if you've got Zahndrekh, spend 160 points on a Royal Court and Force Multiply some more instead of doing nothing.

Minor nitpick - Obyron's ability to take zero HQ slots can be very useful sometimes. Still, he is not that good, yes.

Illuminor Szeras: 100 Points

I think that is his main selling point - he is cheap. Yes, Cryptek is cheaper, but you do pay hidden cost of Overlord with these, and in low point games, Szeras can find his place.

That is, the 'mid field'. Some players don't believe that such a thing exists, but, other players swear that it does. I'm the latter kind.

Their weapons are AP2 (which is not the same as AP3), and with their Jump Infantry status they can get in range to use them.

Another minor nitpick - I don't mind mental shortcuts, but given the number of new players here now, when you're writing a review it would be nice to explain fully thing such as bolded above or put a glossary of such terms into a post for reference?

Obviously you've never heard of Combat Tactics.

Only if you play 'pure' SM. Which anyone playing uniques kind of doesn't.

psyker battle squads are awesome. the leadership thing means that you can make terminators run from guardsmen. it's funny and effective at the same time. and for those times when that power won't help you, their blast one might. yes, they get kinda screwed if the enemy has psychic defense, but you're the guard, so...kill whatever's giving you a problem and move on.

At their Ld, they're not very reliable...

snipers have terrible leadership, it's true, but BS 4 sniping weapons are often underrated. they're very good vs monstrous creatures, rending gives them a chance vs anything else except armor 13/14, and pinning checks are an added bonus. they won't win you the battle, but you can often control your opponents target priority to allow them to do some damage, so they can stay on the field a while if you do it right. IIRC they have stealth too, so go for those cover saves.

Given their T/I/Ld, if even one enemy model other than a Grot comes close to them, you will lose whole unit. That's a fact, sadly. Not terrible, but there are better things in IG Codex.

Storm troopers are rarely used, but can be used to great effect when they are. they'll cut down at least one squad to size, if not eliminate it entirely in most games. Additionally, the squad they'll hit is quite often worth more that the troopers themselves, so it's a net gain for you.

'Cut down' isn't something I'd use to describe S3 weapon that can't even use FRFSRF. You're within 12" for rapid fire? Oh, that means anything with 3+ save you wanted to shoot is within assault range. Guess who will win even if you will kill some models?

Also, these guys are 16 points. Veterans are 7, with carapace 10, only when you throw in one of the upgrade characters cost somewhat equals, but by then Veterans are better. Also, Grey Hunters and Chaos Marines are 15 points. Guess who spent their points more effectively, SM player or one who took Stormtroopers? Which is a pity because I love the concept.

Oh, and whoever said Ogryns are a trap/are not one of other IG choices is right, IMHO

[Cheesegear]

Minor nitpick - Obyron's ability to take zero HQ slots can be very useful sometimes.

Only so long as you're paying 185 points already for Zahndrekh.

I think that is his main selling point - he is cheap. Yes, Cryptek is cheaper, but you do pay hidden cost of Overlord with these, and in low point games, Szeras can find his place.

Yet only above you were saying that paying 185 points, and then a further 160 points for Obyron was fine?
Just find 85 points for Zahndrekh.

Another minor nitpick - I don't mind mental shortcuts, but given the number of new players here now

The 'guide' on Necrons was not written for new or even less-skilled players. That one was done by Winterwind. And I give him full credit because it's very good.

when you're writing a review it would be nice to explain fully thing such as bolded above or put a glossary of such terms into a post for reference?

'AP' is in the rulebook and is a basic term that all players should know. 'AP' in that abbreviated form is also found in every single Codex. Frankly, if you need a glossary on a webpage to tell you what 'AP' means, you've probably got bigger problems. No glossary neccessary.

AP3 not being the same as AP2 is because of negating FNP. Also in the rulebook. Is this what you meant?
Yes, AP2 still gives cover saves, but it negates FNP. This, too. Is in the rulebook.

...Do people really need a glossary to understand that FNP = Feel No Pain?

Glossaries are unneccessary, I don't see the need for it, so I'm not going to write one. If you see the need for one, write one up and post it to Wraith, who is the current holder of the OP for this thread.

EDIT: The only thing I can think of that needs clarifying at all is 'MSU'. Because it isn't a rule and you can't really find it on your own outside the internet.

[Sheep Overlord]

Not sure if this is the place for it, but I'm planning on getting into W40k soon - buying the Cadian battleforce when I've got the chance to go pick it up. With the painting and assembling it'll probably be a while before I'm actually ready to play a game, but I've got an idea about the army I want to build. Imperial guard infantry and veterans are built from the same box, as far as I can tell, so I'm assuming the difference between them is the paint job. Is there a standard way to tell the difference between veterans and infantry, or do I just declare them as such at the beginning of a game . . . ? I didn't see anything about it when paging through the codex but I wasn't entirely sure where to look in the first place. Thanks for your help :)

[Ricky S]

Not sure if this is the place for it, but I'm planning on getting into W40k soon - buying the Cadian battleforce when I've got the chance to go pick it up. With the painting and assembling it'll probably be a while before I'm actually ready to play a game, but I've got an idea about the army I want to build. Imperial guard infantry and veterans are built from the same box, as far as I can tell, so I'm assuming the difference between them is the paint job. Is there a standard way to tell the difference between veterans and infantry, or do I just declare them as such at the beginning of a game . . . ? I didn't see anything about it when paging through the codex but I wasn't entirely sure where to look in the first place. Thanks for your help :)

Yep its just the paintjob. Usually I see people give them medals or other similar stuff to represent the fact that they are veterans. Also veterans are usually the only units that are equipped with meltas or plasma.


Wait so blood angels cant have them at all? Or is it just the furioso/death company dreads that cant?

[Renegade Paladin]

Yep its just the paintjob. Usually I see people give them medals or other similar stuff to represent the fact that they are veterans. Also veterans are usually the only units that are equipped with meltas or plasma.

Meh. I just say "And these guys in the Chimera are veterans," and no one makes a fuss.

Wait so blood angels cant have them at all? Or is it just the furioso/death company dreads that cant?

If by "them" you mean "Lucius pattern drop pods," they can't have them at all.

Transport: The Lucius Pattern Drop Pod may be purchased as a dedicated transport for any loyalist Dreadnought (including Contemptor Dreadnoughts) in Apocalypse games. Otherwise, a Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod is a separate Fast Attack choice for either a Codex Space Marine, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves, or a Codex Black Templars army, and must be occupied by a single Dreadnought of any type from that army assigned to it before the game begins.

I don't see Codex Blood Angels on that list. Their Dreadnoughts are of course loyalist, so they can have them in Apocalypse, but they're not added to the Blood Angels army list.

This may be an error, as I can't help but notice that the book in general suffers from poor editing, but as it stands that's the rule.

[Trixie]

Only so long as you're paying 185 points already for Zahndrekh.

Yes. Ao, pretty much big games only.

Yet only above you were saying that paying 185 points, and then a further 160 points for Obyron was fine?
Just find 85 points for Zahndrekh.

No, I stated low point games. I meant generic overlord, not the Obyron/Zandrek grade point games. Say, 750 point game might be too low points to afford Overlord with Cryptek court, but Szeras' cheapness and minor force multiplier would work well.

The 'guide' on Necrons was not written for new or even less-skilled players. That one was done by Winterwind. And I give him full credit because it's very good.

I agree it's good, but still, I believe it should be accessible for novices, since they would have most interest in such posts.

'AP' is in the rulebook and is a basic term that all players should know. 'AP' in that abbreviated form is also found in every single Codex. Frankly, if you need a glossary on a webpage to tell you what 'AP' means, you've probably got bigger problems. No glossary neccessary.

By 'glossary', I meant explanations how the off-hand comments tie together, not explaining common abbreviations. I don't think new players are that dumb :P

AP3 not being the same as AP2 is because of negating FNP. Also in the rulebook. Is this what you meant?
Yes, AP2 still gives cover saves, but it negates FNP. This, too. Is in the rulebook.

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. We both know what AP 2 means, but new player is going to stare into this sentence and conclude something like "bwuh, I guess they're good against Terminators, then?".

Again, by glossary, I didn't mean 'Ap 2 = armor piercing 2' but rather 'Ap 2 (no FNP)'.

...Do people really need a glossary to understand that FNP = Feel No Pain?

No, but for new player, it will not be obvious. It's what I'm saying.

EDIT: The only thing I can think of that needs clarifying at all is 'MSU'. Because it isn't a rule and you can't really find it on your own outside the internet.

How about things like 'Blood Rodeo', Nipplewing, and Baby Carriers, then? :P

Ok, I do think last two names are stupid and shouldn't even exist, but anyway.

Not sure if this is the place for it, but I'm planning on getting into W40k soon - buying the Cadian battleforce when I've got the chance to go pick it up. With the painting and assembling it'll probably be a while before I'm actually ready to play a game, but I've got an idea about the army I want to build. Imperial guard infantry and veterans are built from the same box, as far as I can tell, so I'm assuming the difference between them is the paint job. Is there a standard way to tell the difference between veterans and infantry, or do I just declare them as such at the beginning of a game . . . ? I didn't see anything about it when paging through the codex but I wasn't entirely sure where to look in the first place. Thanks for your help :)

Usually, there is no difference, unless you give them carapace armour doctrine. then, they should be better armoured. Still, you'd best field only one kind (regulars vs infantry) so that enemy isn't confused, or else make them differ in some really obvious way, as courtesy. If you want to swap your minis between the types, to have a way to change your list, you can magnetize some small element on the minis or their bases and add them as needed.

[Zorg]

This may be an error, as I can't help but notice that the book in general suffers from poor editing, but as it stands that's the rule.

They've got Stormraven's already, so no Lucius for them.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm overall not a fan of the Macharius. It's like a leettle babby Baneblade that just isn't that impressive. Overall though I'm not a huge fan of it. Then again, it's probably better than the battle-cannons.

The battle cannon is a 7" blast, but other than that is the same as found on a Russ. Despite being double barreled, it's not twin-linked. The Vanquisher variant is a throwback to the days of yore when Vanquisher cannons could pick high-ex shells and act like a battle cannon where appropriate, and is twin-linked. The big draw is that they come in at less than 400 points (excepting the Vulcan). If you're playing bare 3000 point Apocalypse games and don't want so much of your force tied up in one vehicle, I can see the appeal. I don't plan to get one, though; I'm sticking with the Baneblade chassis.

There's also rules for a plasma blastgun armed Macharius variant that they haven't made a model for yet. It Gets Hot! though (called Overheat, because vehicles ignore Gets Hot!), and gives the vehicle a glancing hit when it does so, but only after the shots are resolved (so it's not like a plasma cannon where if you roll a 1 the shots aren't fired).

Also, the Land Raider Achilles makes me giggle. Unless I ever see one across the table.

[Cheesegear]

Say, 750 point game might be too low points to afford Overlord with Cryptek court, but Szeras' cheapness and minor force multiplier would work well.

Again, I need to stress that the Necron guide was not written for unskilled players and assumes games of 1500+ (because that's what I play-tested at) and that most - if not all - games will be played against Marines (any Marine Codex, they each have at least one competitive build these days, if not more), and Dark Eldar. And, as bad as it is, my Grey Knights experience is still lacking, but I'm pretty sure Warp Quake will wreck Veil of Darkness.

I agree it's good, but still, I believe it should be accessible for novices, since they would have most interest in such posts.

Maybe. But I'm yet to see proof. My PM box currently is getting filled by people already experienced in the game. At least, their messages imply that they know what they're talking about.

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. We both know what AP 2 means, but new player is going to stare into this sentence and conclude something like "bwuh, I guess they're good against Terminators, then?".

AP2 is good against Terminators...It's also good against a bunch of other things. And in the 'casual' meta-game, Terminators are going to be the problem. Not army-wide BA Feel No Pain shenanigans. The 'casual' meta-game still thinks Hammernators in Codex Marines are the Bee's Knees and not Dreadnoughts and Sternguard.

No, but for new player, it will not be obvious. It's what I'm saying.

I have no problems at all with those players where, if the questions seriously need asking, can just ask.

Like I said, if you feel the need for it, you can write it. I have every confidence in you. But, like I mentioned, my PM box isn't full of newbs asking questions. If I was repeatedly getting questions like "Which army should I start?", then I'd probably write a Guide on how to pick an army that you like...Oh. I did. If people were continuously asking me which Battleforce was the best/most cost efficient, I'd write something. I did.

I write things when I feel that the same question is asked over and over and over again. And, generally whenever a new Codex comes out (and, even then, "What does everyone think about X." whenever a new 'dex comes out is all over the place).

How about things like 'Blood Rodeo', Nipplewing, and Baby Carriers, then? :P

I've only read the term 'Blood Rodeo' thrown around by you and me, and presumably only because we go elsewhere on the internet and know such a term. Everyone else (that I've seen) in the Playground has just said Assault Marines and Bikes. In fact, so far, I don't think I've even seen a Blood Rodeo army in the Playground apart from my own.

Nipplewing is only really thrown around by people who already know the term. New players would say 'Dante army' or Sanguinary Guard. And for the Guide that Newbies are interested in, I never once mentioned 'Nipplewing'. I meantioned Dante and Sanguinary Guard like a sane person that doesn't actually like the moniker that it's been given.

I've never read the term Baby Carrier, at least not in a serious context. I assume you mean Dreadknights. And that's easier to type, so I'm just not going to write Baby Carrier.

[Ricky S]

They've got Stormraven's already, so no Lucius for them.

Thats just unacceptable!

Well this is the first time I have heard of a blood rodeo. I know about nipplewing and baby carriers though. In fact I am currently building a nipplewing army and am planning on painting it non metallic metal. I wish the sanguinary guard box kit came with more infernus pistols though.

[Squark]

Battle Report time!

1000 pts Newcrons v Tau
Necrons

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Destroyer Lord with Sempiternal Weave and Mindshackle Scarabs 160 pts
7 Necron Immortals 119 pts (Mistakenly played with only 5 in each squad. Not sure how that would have affected the game, as it might have made them an easier target)
7 Necron Immortals 119 pts
7 Flayed Ones 91 pts (I admit this was blatant tailoring after I had no idea what to spend my last <100 pts)
C'tan Shard with Transdimensional thunderbolt and Writhing Worldscape 265 pts
5 Canoptek Wraiths with 2 whip coils 195 pts

My Cousin

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Commander in crisis suit with plasma guns, missile pods, marker light, a shield drone, and something he abbreviated as a "dc"
3 Crisis Suits
12 Fire Warriors with a marker light
12 Fire Warriors with a marker light
Piranha with 2 missiles, disruption pad, and a multitracker
3 Broadsides with 6 shield drones

The set up was a mix of ruins and craters throughout the battlefield. Mission type was Seize Ground (4 objectives), setting up in the corners. He deployed first, setting up in a gunline that curved around his corner of the field. My meager force of immortals hid in a ruin, with the Wraiths and C'tan hiding behind it. The Flayed Ones infiltrated behind his gunline, hiding behind the wall of a ruin.

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Turn 1: I do not seize the initiative. 1 squad of fire warriors attempts to shoot at the group of immortals camping on the top floor of the ruin on an objective, and succeed in knocking one down. The piranha curls back to try and knock out the flayed ones, and one Crisis suit takes a single potshot at a Flayed one, while the Broadsides fired smart missiles at the Flayed ones (I think he was more scared of these than he should have been) By this point, he killed 2 of them. On my turn, some of the Flayed ones manage to get into cover, while everyone else moves forward. The C'tan begins a long and relatively fruitless attempt to kill the shield drone with the Crisis suits.

Turn 2: He moves a squad of fire warriors to shoot the Flayed ones along side the piranha. They only kill one permanently, much to his frustration. Concentrated firing by the Broadsides and the other fire warriors wipe out both of the whip coil wraiths, and put a wound on a normal wraith and the lord. My immortals and the C'tan continue being useless, while the Wraith and Flayed Ones move into assault. The Flayed ones only manage to kill 3 fire warriors while losing two of their own, but that is sufficient to cause the fire warriors to rout. They run away (no sweeping advance), while in the other melee, the One wraith bites the dust while they and the lord kill about half of the shield drones. The line is held.

Turn 3: The Piranha, fleeing fire warriors, and Crisis suits move to kill the flayed ones in an attempt to ensure those fire warriors will rally next turn, while the other Fire warriors move to support the Broadsides in assault. The resulting melee leaves several fire warriors dead alongside a Broadside and the rest of the shield drones. The Broadsides break, but the remaining wraith and the lord are held in combat by the fire warriors. Meanwhile, the C'tan finally managed to kill the shield drone here, and managed to kill a fire warrior with a Dangerous terrain check. During my assault phase, the fire warriors who are not fleeing are killed by a sweeping advance.

Turn 4: The Crisis suits manage to inflict 3 wounds on the C'tan in shooting phase, while the Piranha killed an immortal in the other squad. Meanwhile the remaining fire warriors and the broadsides ran off the edge of the board. Here's where I think a mistake was made; When he lost his last troop choice, he should have thrown all his firepower into killing mine. But I digress. The C'tan continues to be lackluster with the thunderbolt, and the Immortals do nothing. The C'tan then assaults the Crisis suits, managing to kill one while not sustaining any wounds. The Lord and last surviving wraith, meanwhile, attempt to kill the Piranha and manage to blow up a gun.

Turn 5: In his assault phase, the other two crisis suits are killed and the commander is swept away. Meanwhile the piranha, his surviving unit, moves to shoot a group of immortals. My immortals, rejoicing at the chance to actually shoot something, immobilize it, leaving the Lord to mop up with a warscythe.

A victory for me, although he scored a minor moral victory in death when the exploding piranha managed to kill the Destroyer lord. Overall, I think I did fairly well.

[Zorg]

Also on the topic of the book, the Vulcan mega-bolter is widely considered a trap on Titans and the Baneblade chassis (see Stormlord), but how about the Macharius Vulcan? How cheap does the platform have to get before the weapon is worth the cost? After all, at AP3 it's no Punisher cannon. But then again, the designers apparently consider it worth an 80 point price increase from the twin battle cannon-armed base model, so...

Also, the Tauros Venator can no longer take two HK missiles.

The Vulcan Marcharius now has the advantage of the 'fire twice if stationary' rule from the Stormlord, so it's actually pretty good now for mowing down non-power armour infantry - but not in huge quantities. Chewing through IG blob squads or Ork hordes is now better, but it's still only BS3:

30 shots, 15 hits, 12.5 wounds against T3/4 so long as they don't have a save. So you'll wipe out a squad of IG a turn or half a full Ork mob - but is that worth it to you?
I'd personally go for the Vanquisher as it can dual role to kill tanks and still kill hordes.

The plasma version is very good, as it only overheats on Maximal fire mode, which is actually worse in some ways for infantry killing. I've always found that putting two S7 AP2 7" templates down is generally more efficient at killing infantry than the limited gain on a S9 shot.
The increased blast is a bit of a waste as the two point in Str difference isn't going to matter much - anything that needs S9 to kill should be being shot at by lascannons - and the two templates could scatter to cover more dudes anyway.
Consider when compared to the vulcan I've managed to kill 40 odd Necrons in a single shot from a plasma blastgun as the template doesn't care about hitting different squads either.

I've generally found that (non-titan) superheavies are good at killing the other guy's infantry, and my infantry is best used to kill his superheavies.

The Marcharius chassis has the plus when compared to the Baneblade hulls in that it's got a much lower silhouette, so can get cover more easily and fit into the oft crowded IG apoc board more readily.

[Ricky S]

DC stands for drone controller.

Also you might want to tell your cousin that 6 shield drones is a big over the top. He is spending 90pts for that in a 1000pts game. He could have gotten another piranhna or a couple of crisis suits for that or even a unit of kroot.

[Sheep Overlord]

Alright, in anticipation of the army-to-be, I've put together two 500 point lists to build off of as my army grows - any recommendations for one or the other?

List 1:

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Company Command Squad: Lascannon, 2 Grenade Launchers, Master of Ordinance - 110 points
Platoon Command Squad: 4 Flamers, Dedicated Transport - 105 points
2 identical Infantry squads: Autocannon, Grenade Launcher - 130 points total
Veteran Squad: 3x meltas, dedicated transport - 155 points

Comes out to 500 points exactly (Master of Ordinance was added to bring it there); PCS and Veteran to be used offensively to grab objectives while the CCS sits back with the infantry and shoots. Considering dropping the MoO and some grenade launchers to get a scout sentinel (the model's free with the box), making it look more like list 2.

List 2:

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Company Command Squad: Missile Launcher, 2 Sniper Rifles - 75 points
Platoon Command Squad: 4 Flamers, Dedicated Transport - 105 points
2 identical infantry squads: Autocannon - 120 points total
Veteran Squad: 3x melta, dedicated transport - 155 points
Scout Sentinel: Autocannon, Smoke Launchers - 45 points

Once again comes out to 500 exactly, the smoke launchers on the sentinel were free. As you can see the two lists are pretty similar, I have a good idea of how I want to play - I just don't know what the best setup is for playing that way (a hybrid force with mechanized offense and infantry defense). If there's anything major I've overlooked, please let me know.

I'm hoping for constructive criticism and an idea of how to build my army after I have this much assembled (though I'm sure the battle force and the extra chimeras / infantry / squad leader will take me a while to build and paint). At what point should I add artillery? For smaller games, are mortars functional enough to use as artillery-lite? Should I just skip the artillery and go right for tanks? That sort of thing. Also, in regards to painting: I think I'm going to go with a pretty typical Cadian paint scheme, but would it look horrible if I used purple trim to denote veterans or the like? I like purple but I don't think painting my whole force that color would be a great idea (unless I'm feeling sneaky. . . ) Thanks for putting up with the wall of text :)

[Wabbajack]

I recently started playing Warhammer 40k and choose Grey Knights as my army. I only played four 500 points games so far which I all lost, but I've heard that's because Grey Knights are crap at low points and it still was a good way to learn the basics of the game.

Now I've bought enough stuff for a 2000 points army and will probably play some games tomorrow.

Any tactical tips or ideas for improvements?
Here's my army list:

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{That's the way I build the models so I can't change most weapons}
HQ
--Lord Kaldor Draigo {I really like that one, will use him even though he's pretty expensive}
--Inquisitor Coteaz

Elite
--Venerable Dreadnought
-Assault Cannon
-Psybolt ammunition
--Vindicare Assassin

Troops
--Paladin Squad (10 Paladins)
-Apothecary
-Psycannons (4)
-Brotherhood Banner
-Nemesis force halberds (9) {I heard that mixing weapons is rather good but I really like the halberds}
-Psybolt ammunition
--Strike Squad
-Psycannon

Dedicated Transports
--Razorback
--Razorback

Fast Attack
--Stormraven Gunship
-Twin-linked multi-melta
-Twin-linked lascannons
-Teleport homer

Heavy Support
--Purgation Squad
-Incinerator
-Nemesis force halberds (3)
-Nemesis Daemon hammer
-Teleport homer

1999/2000 points

I want to teleport the paladin squad close to the enemies. Kaldor will sit in the Stormraven so he can use Psychic Communion.

[Provengreil]

'Cut down' isn't something I'd use to describe S3 weapon that can't even use FRFSRF. You're within 12" for rapid fire? Oh, that means anything with 3+ save you wanted to shoot is within assault range. Guess who will win even if you will kill some models?

Also, these guys are 16 points. Veterans are 7, with carapace 10, only when you throw in one of the upgrade characters cost somewhat equals, but by then Veterans are better. Also, Grey Hunters and Chaos Marines are 15 points. Guess who spent their points more effectively, SM player or one who took Stormtroopers? Which is a pity because I love the concept.

Use them against the longfangs. or vanguad veterans if your opponent is dumb enough to field them. use them against khorne berserkers, cuz i've almost never seen a chaos marine player field only CSMs. use them against the noise marines, or the devastators, or the crisis suits, or the sternguard veterans. use them against a command squad if you have to: even with FNP, a single 4+ save is worth trying on those guys. my point is that there are either gonna be some high value targets to hit, or you have already done your job almost too well.

[Trixie]

--Inquisitor Coteaz

What exactly he adds to your army?

With Driago, you just need more models...

--Venerable Dreadnought
-Assault Cannon
-Psybolt ammunition

Why not 2x Autocannon? GK Dreads are not that good in assault...

Troops
--Paladin Squad (10 Paladins)
-Apothecary
-Psycannons (4)
-Brotherhood Banner
-Nemesis force halberds (9) {I heard that mixing weapons is rather good but I really like the halberds}
-Psybolt ammunition

Apothecary might be too expensive. Plus, paladins need 2-3 swords, IMHO.

--Strike Squad
-Psycannon

Seriously, WRITE number of models and cost. That list is barely readable...

Dedicated Transports
--Razorback
--Razorback

For who? Paladins? Purgators? What equipment? Base Razorback is almost useless.

Heavy Support
--Purgation Squad
-Incinerator
-Nemesis force halberds (3)
-Nemesis Daemon hammer
-Teleport homer

So, you take fire support squad, give them minimal guns, and try to make them melee unit?

While your Strikers, ones that could actually use more bodies and guns, and who will be closer to enemy, are naked? What's the logic in this?

I want to teleport the paladin squad close to the enemies. Kaldor will sit in the Stormraven so he can use Psychic Communion.

At least 5 Paladins need to sit in Stormraven with Draigo, IMHO.

Also, only 4 vehicles, in 2000 points?

Again, I need to stress that the Necron guide was not written for unskilled players and assumes games of 1500+ (because that's what I play-tested at) and that most - if not all - games will be played against Marines (any Marine Codex, they each have at least one competitive build these days, if not more), and Dark Eldar. And, as bad as it is, my Grey Knights experience is still lacking, but I'm pretty sure Warp Quake will wreck Veil of Darkness.

No opinion as of now, need to actually test them more than in 2 games.

Maybe. But I'm yet to see proof. My PM box currently is getting filled by people already experienced in the game. At least, their messages imply that they know what they're talking about.

<shrug> New players might be afraid?

I don't know, I'm just of opinion that unless we want to become yet another ghetto, being more open/helpful with information would be the way to go, IMHO.

I've only read the term 'Blood Rodeo' thrown around by you and me, and presumably only because we go elsewhere on the internet and know such a term. Everyone else (that I've seen) in the Playground has just said Assault Marines and Bikes. In fact, so far, I don't think I've even seen a Blood Rodeo army in the Playground apart from my own.

Well, guide to most popular tactics and 101 of list building could be nice addition to the opening post.

I could try to write it, if I find a bit of free time :/

I meantioned Dante and Sanguinary Guard like a sane person that doesn't actually like the moniker that it's been given.

And that's easier to type, so I'm just not going to write Baby Carrier.

That just means you're normal, unlike a... certain WH40K subculture :P

[Cheesegear]

Alright, in anticipation of the army-to-be, I've put together two 500 point lists to build off of as my army grows - any recommendations for one or the other?

Take a read. This too.

Anyway, let's go...

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List 1:

Company Command Squad - 110 points
Lascannon, 2 Grenade Launchers
Master of Ordinance

I like a Medic and 3 Grenade Launchers.
Renegade Paladin (the other guy you want to listen to when it comes to IG) likes Medic and Plasmaguns.

Always get a Medic. Carapace Armour is fine too, but costly for 500 points.
Find points for Voxes.

Platoon Command Squad - 105 Points
4 Flamers
+ Chimera

Put the Chimera with your Company Command Squad. Drop the Flamers. You don't want to be anywhere near that close to the enemy with your Command Squads. Grenade Launchers are still awesome and do roughly the same job.
Find points for Voxes.

Infantry Squad - 65 Points
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad - 65 Points
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

In 500 points, you're not going to face a lot of tanks. This is fine. Later on, you'll want to either swap the Autocannon for a Heavy Bolter, or swap the Grenade Launcher for a Plasmagun.

Heavy Bolter + Grenade Launcher
Autocannon + Plasmagun
Lascannon + Plasmagun

These are the combos that work. But, yeah, At 500 points you want stuff that can 'do everything' even if it can't do anything very well.

Find points for Voxes.

Veteran Squad - 155 Points
x3 Meltaguns
+ Chimera

A staple of IG armies everywhere. I'm only going to say this is fine because it's 500 points and you don't have points to throw around. But, later when you play bigger games, you want as many Infantry Squads as you have Orders. Your current army as-is, has three Orders, so you want three Infantry Squads.

Veterans don't typically get Orders as you don't want your Command Squads near the enemy, and Veterans - especially Meltavets (as an aside, do you need that explained? Or do you understand what I'm talking about?) - are usually close to the enemy. And Command radius is only 12". Usually.

Unless, what you want to do, is drive both your Chimeras forwards, make the Veterans jump out (which they shouldn't, because Chimeras have more than enough Fire Points) and then give an Order in your Shooting phase? If it's not obvious enough, that's a bad idea.

I wont do the second list, since it has a lot of the same problems as the first.

Here;
Infantry Guard

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Company Command Squad - 95 Points
Medi-Pack, Vox-Caster, x2 Grenade Launchers

Infantry Platoon - [215 Points]

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Platoon Command Squad - 40 Points
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad - 90 Points
Plasmagun, Lascannon, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad - 85 Points
Plasmagun, Lascannon

Infantry Platoon - [190 Points]

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Platoon Command Squad - 35 Points
Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad - 90 Points
Plasmagun, Lascannon, Vox-Caster

Infantry Squad - 65 Points
Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter

500 Points on the dot. 4 Orders per turn, 4 Infantry Squads to take them.
Think about swapping the Lascannons for Autcannons for +30 Points, then add Grenade Launchers to your Platoon Commands. It might help, it might not.

Yeah, Infantry Platoons are hard to write out (especially when you actually have to present them IRL and don't have the benefit of spoiler tags). But, that's the price you pay for one of the best army-builds in the game. Not to mention the actual price.

Veteran Guard

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Lord Commissar - 80 Points
Camo Cloak

Veteran Squad - 155 Points
x3 Meltaguns
+ Chimera: Multi-Laser, Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad - 155 Points
x3 Meltaguns
+ Chimera: Multi-Laser, Heavy Flamer

Scout Sentinels (x3) - 110 Points
x1 Heavy Flamer

Total: 500 Points
The only issue that this list has is that the Scout Sentinels are going to be junk after about 1000+ point games. And I don't like seeing new players wasting money if they don't have to.

I'm hoping for constructive criticism and an idea of how to build my army after I have this much assembled (though I'm sure the battle force and the extra chimeras / infantry / squad leader will take me a while to build and paint).

Imperial Guard is all about spam. Spam. And then spam some more. Whether it's tanks or Infantry, you're spamming.

At what point should I add artillery?

Never? Unless you mean tanks? Imperial Guard don't have Artillery (it's a Unit Type and means something specific in 40K).

For smaller games, are mortars functional enough to use as artillery-lite?

No.

Imperial Guard Vehicles, if you haven't already read it, which you hopefully have.

I only played four 500 points games so far which I all lost, but I've heard that's because Grey Knights are crap at low points

Well, they are. But let's also hope that that's why you lost.

Now I've bought enough stuff for a 2000 points army and will probably play some games tomorrow.

Going from 500 to 2000 is a huge step. I suggest playing more games around the 1000-1500 mark. It takes less time, and, in 1000-500 point games you're less likely to see the rampant bulls* that makes 2000 point games unfun.

Any tactical tips or ideas for improvements?

Let's take a look.

Spoiler

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{That's the way I build the models so I can't change most weapons}

Not an excuse. Use Knife. It's Super Effective. I know you're new. But it's not an excuse.

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Inquisitor Coteaz

Use one or the other. Definitely not both. As they both, seperately, make different army types.

Venerable Dreadnought
Assault Cannon, Psybolt ammunition

Is there a reason he's Venerable? You've got Heavy slots open so there really isn't a reason you need to be paying so many points. However, having BS5 helps when you aren't taking Twin-Linked weapons.
...But Twin-Linked weapons are really, really good...

Vindicare Assassin

Fine.

Paladin Squad (10 Paladins)
-Apothecary
-Psycannons (4)
-Brotherhood Banner
-Nemesis force halberds (9) {I heard that mixing weapons is rather good but I really like the halberds}
-Psybolt ammunition

I assume you're not going for Wound Allocation? Because that's what mixing weapons is for, and you're not, so, yeah. Anyway, yes. This is good. If you're Wound Allocating...For some reason.

Apothecaries are expensive. Feel free to drop him if you need points elsewhere.

Strike Squad
-Psycannon

What are you even taking Coteaz for?

Razorback
Razorback

For what squads? You can't take Razorbacks on their own. Errgh.

Stormraven Gunship
-Twin-linked multi-melta
-Twin-linked lascannons
-Teleport homer

Sure. But in 2000 points you definitely want more since it's the first thing that's going to get shot at every game. Do you realise how much players hate the Stormraven?

Purgation Squad
-Incinerator
-Nemesis force halberds (3)
-Nemesis Daemon hammer
-Teleport homer

No. Just take another Strike Squad. You're not even taking x4 Incinerators or Psycannons. You're not even doing what Purgation Squads are for. Pretty bad.

Read this. This too. Learn to write a list so it doesn't give people headaches.

[Sheep Overlord]

Thanks for the quick feedback. I was hoping to mix infantry and mech, though, not do too much of one or the other right off the bat in case I find I prefer one or the other in practice - I would probably specialize more at higher points. By artillery I meant basilisks, griffons or the like - maybe not technically artillery but that's what it looks like. I understand the concept of meltavets- the plan for the 500pt list was vets and pcs in chimeras, so they would split incoming av fire a bit. I was also hoping to let the pcs focus on infantry and the vets on heavier stuff, hence the flamers (cheap and more effective than lasguns and don't care about bs3). Medkits and voxes didn't make the list due to expense and I wasn't sure how much use they would see - the points would add up to quite a bit and I would rather have extra troops. Likewise I thought plasma was too expensive for regular infantry who only have a 50% chance to hit anyway. I've heard that the math supports autocannons over heavy bolters in most circumstances and they're the same price but if bolters are better in your experience then I will consider it. Honestly, the pcs is with the vets because I thought a lonely chimera would draw too much fire and I wanted some close support / the ability to chase or contest multiple objectives. A hybrid starting point (to get a feel for both play styles) and then favoring whichever I preferred was the plan, so I want to keep my 500 point list as moderate as possible. Thanks for the help, though :)

[Ricky S]

Before I go and spend a vast amount of money on my next army and regret making mistakes are there any traps in a nipplewing army? Should I take the Sanguinor or are more troops on the field a better idea?

Currently my list is this.

-Sanguinor 275pts
-Dante 225pts

-Sanguinary Guard 200 – 280pts
Power Fist
4x Infernus Pistol
Chapter Banner

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Priest 90pts
Jump Pack
Power Weapon

1500pts

[Trixie]

IMHO? Librarian, second priest, and more meltaguns would have been better than Sanguinor. You have awfully low anti-tank/anti-MC ability. But he works, too, I guess...

[Ricky S]

IMHO? Librarian, second priest, and more meltaguns would have been better than Sanguinor. You have awfully low anti-tank/anti-MC ability. But he works, too, I guess...

Ok well this should sort the anti tank problem. I now have three units that can pop tanks when they deepstrik and two priests.

-Dante 225pts

-Sanguinary Guard 200 – 230pts
Power Fist
2x Infernus Pistol

-Sanguinary Guard 240pts
3x Infernus Pistol
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 230pts
2x Infernus Pistol
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Priest 75pts
Jump Pack

-Sanguinary Priest 75pts
Jump Pack

1495pts

[Cheesegear]

I was hoping to mix infantry and mech, though, not do too much of one or the other right off the bat in case I find I prefer one or the other in practice - I would probably specialize more at higher points.

That's fine. Probably not an issue at 500 points. At 500 points the issues are mainly how to not screw up (overpay) on your Command Squads. When at even 1000 points, going 'half and half' isn't even nearly as powerful as going spam one or the other.

I understand the concept of meltavets

No worries. I only asked because it kind of proves a point. You're new, and it's not that hard to pick up new terms.

I was also hoping to let the pcs focus on infantry and the vets on heavier stuff, hence the flamers (cheap and more effective than lasguns and don't care about bs3).

Put a Heavy Flamer on your Chimera and let it do the work.

Medkits and voxes didn't make the list due to expense and I wasn't sure how much use they would see

Medkits, sort of. Voxes, not at all. Probably one of the most important pieces of Wargear a Command Squad can take. And at only 5 points, why would you not? Remember, Combine Squads on Infantry Squads means that for every other game you play, you'll only have one squad, which means you only need one Vox for every 2/3 Infantry Squads.
Remember; you can't Combine Squads from two different Platoons. Best size for Platoons is 3 Infantry Squads. After that you need more Command Squads for Orders.

I've heard that the math supports autocannons over heavy bolters in most circumstances and they're the same price but if bolters are better in your experience then I will consider it.

Yeah, but Autocannons can be fired at vehicles, Grenade Launchers can't. If you're shooting at squads (in this case anything with less than 5+ armour), a Heavy Bolter gets more shots and pairs with the Grenade Launcher which is more efficient. If you're shooting at a vehicle, the Autocannon pelts off two shots and the rest of the entire squad does nothing.

-Dante 225pts

-Sanguinary Guard 200 – 230pts
Power Fist
2x Infernus Pistol

Not 4 Pistols in Dante's Squad?

Sanguinary Guard 240pts
3x Infernus Pistol
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 230pts
2x Infernus Pistol
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

-Sanguinary Guard 210pts
Power Fist

...That's a lot of Sanguinary Guard. Move around and drop some Pistols, drop those two bottom units of Sanguinary Guard and pick up two Stormravens. One of my very good friends has a 1750 Sanguinary List with three. It hasn't lost many games.

Most lists (that are trying to min-max) don't often take more than three Troops.

Sanguinary Priest 75pts
Jump Pack

-Sanguinary Priest 75pts
Jump Pack

Yep.

[Sheep Overlord]

Oops, didn't catch that GLs can't shoot at vehicles. That changes things a bit - I thought they were unlikely (but slightly capable) of hitting AV 10. I might still model the autocannons for the extra range and the miniscule anti-vehicle ability if I really need a transport popped (at this points value I don't have a huge amount of anti-armor that can reliably be used at range, if I get rid of the autocannons). I was worried about combining squads primarily because that means they're all shooting at the same target, which might end up as overkill. Um, models with Voxes can still shoot, right? I'm actually not 100% sure and the models look like they're not ready to fire.

Anyway, the flamers for the PCS were affordable and seem to increase their effectiveness significantly, because 5 BS3 lasguns are pretty underwhelming. 4 flamers as a mobile firebase or as a counter-assault unit might be pretty handy, and I had the points available.

Er, not counter-assault per se I suppose but I don't know what to call it. Enemy charges my guard line, the infantry get killed or run away. PCS standing behind them can open up with flamers to limit their continued close combat potential. That sort of thing. It's something I'd mess around with in practice and if it doesn't work, it's only a small number of models I would need to replace anyway. I don't expect to be playing 100% super-competitively, at 500 points I'll be still playing introductory games and I mostly want to get a feel for as many different strategies as possible so I know which direction I want to head.

Speaking of, mortars. As you said, they're apparently not at all a small-scale substitute for artillery (or indirect fire ordinance tanks, or whatever you want to call them - the fluff refers to them as artillery but not the rules). In that case, what are they? Are they 100% useless / a trap, or would it be worth at least proxying them for a game or two to get a feel for indirect fire; and at what points value should I try bringing in a griffon or the like? Once again, thanks for putting up with my nooby-know-nothing questions.

[Cheesegear]

Oops, didn't catch that GLs can't shoot at vehicles

What? No. They can. But it's not really worth it.

I might still model the autocannons for the extra range and the miniscule anti-vehicle ability if I really need a transport popped (at this points value I don't have a huge amount of anti-armor that can reliably be used at range, if I get rid of the autocannons).

The difference between Lascannons and Autocannons is minimal at 500 points. You might see one Vindicator or maybe an Ironclad. But everything else is going to be Rhinos and Razorbacks.

I was worried about combining squads primarily because that means they're all shooting at the same target, which might end up as overkill. Um, models with Voxes can still shoot, right? I'm actually not 100% sure and the models look like they're not ready to fire.

Heh. Vox-Men are meant to be modelled with Lasguns.

Speaking of, mortars. As you said, they're apparently not at all a small-scale substitute for artillery

The only good thing about Mortars is that they're cheap. They absolutely do not go in Infantry, Veteran or Command Squads, or, in fact anything that isn't called a 'Heavy Weapons Squad' shouldn't have Mortars.

Anyway, wait for Renegade Paladin to show up. He'll know what to do.