Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Tome]

How does Force weapon of Gk works? I mean a guy just killed 11 Scarabs of mine with instant death with a group of 5 GK's. With a librarian all psikers with force weapons.

As Renegade Paladin said, GK Force Weapons are just like normal Force Weapons in the main rule book. The only exception is that the entire unit, barring ICs, makes only a single, combined roll to apply them to the entire unit's attacks.

Not sure how he managed to kill 11 scarabs though. Even 5 GK Terminators with Falchions and a banner are only throwing out 15 Force weapon attacks (plus 3 normal attacks from the guy with the banner).

There are a few limitations, so make sure your opponent wasn't forgetting them. If he was, and he was doing it on purpose, start throwing things at him.

• Activating Force Weapons counts as using a psychic power, so he can't use Hammerhand in the same turn. This means that their attacks will be S4 (or S8 for Hammers, which ID Scarabs anyway).
• Still has to roll to hit and wound normally.
• Unless there's a Brotherhood Banner in the unit, he has to roll to activate the weapons on Ld 9. Even then, the guy holding the banner is only going to be throwing out 3 non-Power Weapon attacks at I4 WS4 S4.

EDIT Ninja'd and:

Yea but they ALL strike with that force weapon? Cause isnt just 3 psichycs per Unit? if he has 11 Gks, the 11 Gks attack with that force weapon rule? And kjust one rollcheck? Its OP.

Not quite. There aren't just 3 Psykers a unit. Every GK is a psyker. All of them. Even the guy stuck driving the Rhino is a Psyker. The Dreadnoughts too. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule that they have means that units of them act like a single psyker though, making psychic tests together, only allowed to use a single power and so on. So 11 GKs, which I'd assume would be a unit of 10 GKs and an IC, would make two tests, one for the unit, one for the IC.

So yes, every GK with a force weapon is throwing out instant death (assuming they pass the test to activate them of course). Which tends to make assaulting them with multi-wound models and really bad idea.

There are two good ways to kill GKs in assault: Lots of single wound infantry who don't about force/power weapons OR models with good Invulnerable saves (because then GKs are really just S5 codex marines).

Whatever you do, don't send multi-wound models at them - GKs tend to be something of a hard counter to those. Except possibly Wraiths (if Wraiths are multi-wound models, not sure), thanks to their Invulnerable saves. I've not gone up against them myself yet, but GKs tend to rely pretty heavily on ignoring armour saves to win assault. A unit that gets a good save anyway might ruin their day.

You should probably note that not every GK has a Force Weapon either. PA guys with heavy weapons don't have one, nor do TA ones holding the banner. Techmarines have to pay points to upgrade from power to force as well. Attacks from those guys do not cause ID (unless attacking something that's T2, which is actually surprisingly likely with Rad Grenades).

[filvento]

So. Every Gk make like 3/4 Attacks, plus librarian, its 4 attacks per Gk like to scarabs so lets say 10 gks = 15 wounds on a 15 scarabs unit. So in 1 charge that Gks kill all my scarabs?

[Loki Eremes]

Purifiers. (2 attacks each)
4 of them wielding Falchions
The rest using Halberds.
2- 1 with a psycannon, 1 with a incinerator

CHARGE =
4 puris (falchions) = 16
4 puris (halberds) = 12

28 force attacks
6 common attacks

Hammerhand? = no
HQ sold sepparately

[Renegade Paladin]

So. Every Gk make like 3/4 Attacks, plus librarian, its 4 attacks per Gk like to scarabs so lets say 10 gks = 15 wounds on a 15 scarabs unit. So in 1 charge that Gks kill all my scarabs?

You know what else kills your scarabs? A battle cannon. And they're cheaper than the Purifiers and don't have to go over to you first. I mean, really. Stuff dies in this game; I suggest getting used to it.

[Tome]

So. Every Gk make like 3/4 Attacks, plus librarian, its 4 attacks per Gk like to scarabs so lets say 10 gks = 15 wounds on a 15 scarabs unit. So in 1 charge that Gks kill all my scarabs?

Nope. Normal GKs have 1 attack each. And it's increasing the cost of the unit by half again to increase that to 2.

Terminators and Purifiers have 2 attacks each, but are much more expensive and the upgrade to Falchions that gives them a 3rd attack is still almost universally considered the worst of their weapons due to the cost (partly the actual points cost, mostly the opportunity cost of not having the other, more awesome weapons). There is the Brotherhood Banner, which gives up one model's Force Weapon to add an extra attack to the rest of the unit, but only Terminators can take that.

So he could have 10 GKs pumping out 4 Instant Death attacks each (minus the guy holding the banner), but then he's looking at 475 points just for that. And the Librarian? He's another 170 points on top of that. In most games, that's between a third and a quarter of his army. Much, much more expensive than the scarabs. Attacking a 645 point unit with your Scarabs isn't supposed to result in a win.

Let me repeat that. He can do it for 645 points. You do not attack a deathstar like that unless you have it's hard counter. You stay away from it and shoot the rest of his army to death. And if he does get into CC, remember that Terminators can't Sweeping Advance (the big thing that Necrons hate about assault).

Alternatively, Purifiers can get up to 3 attacks each for a total of 290 points for 10 (assuming no shooting upgrades), and the 170 for the Librarian. That's 460 points total. They're still just T4 Marines in power armour. How quickly can you shoot a tactical squad to death? Because that's how you kill Purifiers.

[Loki Eremes]

Nope. Normal GKs have 1 attack each. And it's increasing the cost of the unit by half again to increase that to 2.

So he could have 10 GKs pumping out 4 Instant Death attacks each (minus the guy holding the banner), but then he's looking at 475 points just for that. And the Librarian? He's another 170 points on top of that. In most games, that's between a third and a quarter of his army. Much, much more expensive than the scarabs. Attacking a 645 point unit with your Scarabs isn't supposed to result in a win.

Let me repeat that. He can do it for 645 points. You do not attack a deathstar like that unless you have it's hard counter. You stay away from it and shoot the rest of his army to death.

And....YES.

This was my first Army list.
About 23 guys + 2 vehicles = 1501 pt (yup, i cheated with that point )

thats...25 targets T-T

[Tome]

And....YES.

This was my first Army list.
About 23 guys + 2 vehicles = 1501 pt (yup, i cheated with that point )

thats...25 targets T-T

I run a pretty similar list. A Grand Master, 20 Terminators, a Dreadknight and a Dreadnought. 23 models for 1500 points. Not particularly competitive, but I didn't start playing Grey Knights to be competitive. I play them for the awesome terminator models, and by the Emperor that's what I'm going to field.

And yet everyone still tries to assault them. I've even started warning the newer folks about some of my stuff. (Me: Friendly warning. See those pointy bits? Those are instant-death-before-you-even-strike Halberds. Don't run straight at them. Opponent: LEEEEROY JENKINS! WAAAARGH! *Cue seven Nobs assaulting ten Terminators plus my Grand Master*)

Except that Guard player. He did the smart thing, and shot me to death with Lascannons by the end of turn 3. My other major loss? A Black Templars player who brought lots of Hammernators along for the ride. I got hammered.

Maybe I should start using more Deathstars in Fantasy? Everyone really seems to like running straight at them around here.

[Loki Eremes]

I run a pretty similar list. A Grand Master, 20 Terminators, a Dreadknight and a Dreadnought. 23 models for 1500 points. Not particularly competitive, but I didn't start playing Grey Knights to be competitive. I play them for the awesome terminator models, and by the Emperor that's what I'm going to field.

And yet everyone still tries to assault them. I've even started warning the newer folks about some of my stuff. (Me: Friendly warning. See those pointy bits? Those are instant-death-before-you-even-strike Halberds. Don't run straight at them. Opponent: LEEEEROY JENKINS! WAAAARGH! *Cue seven Nobs assaulting ten Terminators plus my Grand Master*)

Except that Guard player. He did the smart thing, and shot me to death with Lascannons by the end of turn 3. My other major loss? A Black Templars player who brought lots of Hammernators along for the ride. I got hammered.

Maybe I should start using more Deathstars in Fantasy? Everyone really seems to like running straight at them around here.

Strange isnt it?
Is like they dont believe.

Me: ummm ive got force weapons
oponent: which ones?
Me: The ones which doesnt have psycannons.
oponent: ooh.... i charge.
(few hits later)
oponent: what the....THATS NOT RIGHT!
Me:

[Tychris1]

Well it is kind of not right when dealing with melée armies. Considering I play Tyranids so all of my big, slow, and multi wound monstrous creatures have to stay back and give the grey knight a little personal bubble or risk getting insta KOed by a singe jab to the creatures toe. Frustrating at times

[Tome]

Well it is kind of not right when dealing with melée armies. Considering I play Tyranids so all of my big, slow, and multi wound monstrous creatures have to stay back and give the grey knight a little personal bubble or risk getting insta KOed by a singe jab to the creatures toe. Frustrating at times

Fortunately things like Hormagaunts don't give two bits about Force Weapons.
Seriously, you want to kill GKs in assault? Hordes basically put most of them down on the level of Tactical Squads in CC - particularly if something like Shadow in the Warp is stopping Hammerhand. Terminators usually just end up as I6 Shootynators. Both of those are perfectly killable.

My Orkish opponents still haven't figured out that their Boyz work better than their Nobs.

Of course, there is one army that gives GKs nightmares. Eldar. Every Eldar army has a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Every GK unit has at least one psychic power. The casualties add up, fast. Particularly with more elite lists. SW Rune Priests can do some very unfriendly things as well.

[Tychris1]

And yet somehow my 3d6 running hormagaunts manage to barely catch up to my Carnifex/Swarmlord. And don't get me started on my deep striking Trygon. Still, if I run a squad of 30 Hormagaunts at a Terminator squad, the Hormagaunts are going to most likely come on top nut be horribly wounded. Problem comes when I notice the other terminator squad right next to my hormagaunts and the other one behind that one.

[Etcetera]

Fortunately things like Hormagaunts don't give two bits about Force Weapons.

Purifying Flame.

I still have flashbacks.

[Ninjaman]

Which is... What? Meganobz, Terminators, Obliterators. In short, stuff that's really expensive and no one takes loads of because they cost too much. I don't know about you, but I tote around plenty of AP2 stuff; not everything in the army needs to match it. Strength 6 wounds Toughness 4 on 2+, which is all it really needs to do; against most infantry S10 is just gravy. Anything not multiwound in power armor or worse, which is the majority of infantry in the game, is killed just as dead by a Colossus as a Medusa, and unlike with the Medusa, cover won't save them. They have equivalent costs for a reason, and it's because they do different jobs and do them well. I can do the mathhammer if you want, but I should think this a fairly self-evident proposition.

I saiid or. This list includes wraith, zoanthropes, lynchguard and so on.

WS 5 makes a pretty big difference. Less hits from the hammers, more saves forced by the Pallies.

What? They would need Ws9 for the termies to hit them on 5's

Anyway, as I was staring at my Termagaunts last night and I began wondering about the two Weapons I never use. Spinefists and the flamer template you get per 10 Termagaunts (Codex is missing and I can't remember it as much as Spinefist). So I was wondering what situation would they be useful in/What are your opinions on the two weapons?

Short version? Never!

Well it is kind of not right when dealing with melée armies. Considering I play Tyranids so all of my big, slow, and multi wound monstrous creatures have to stay back and give the grey knight a little personal bubble or risk getting insta KOed by a singe jab to the creatures toe. Frustrating at times

Shadow in the void makes all your problems a lot smaller. Also if you have tervigons (which you should) then you can just swarm them.

[Renegade Paladin]

I saiid or. This list includes wraith, zoanthropes, lynchguard and so on.

Okay. Please walk them around out of cover. My plasma guns would like to say hi. Seriously, you don't need everything in the army to be capable of dealing with 2+; nobody's making the choice between the Medusa and the Colossus in isolation.

[The Glyphstone]

What? They would need Ws9 for the termies to hit them on 5's

No, but they only need WS5 (4?) for the Termies to not hit them on 3's.

[Tychris1]

Shadow in the void makes all your problems a lot smaller. Also if you have tervigons (which you should) then you can just swarm them.

Brotherhood banner lolwut. Entire chapter of psykers stuck in an area where their minds are being torn asunder? Stick a flag their and everythings all right. I would use tervigons if it were not for the fact that I only have 17 Termagaunt models......

[filvento]

New Necron list.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh

Destroyer Lord

Troops
Necron Inmortals x10
Necron Inmortals x10

Fast Attack
Wraiths Whipcoils x6
Wraiths Whipcoils x6
Scarabs x8

Dedicated Transport
Night Schyte
Night Schyte

1500

Thoughts?

[The Glyphstone]

Swap a few of those Whip Coils in each squad for Particle Casters, or just remove them entirely. If the whole squad has Whip Coils, you can't play Musical Wounds with them.

[Hootman]

New Necron list. [...] Thoughts?

I mean no disrespect, but weren't you already directed to Cheesegear's "How To Make Lists Easy To Read" thing?
Edit: It appears I may have been thinking of someone else. Either way, I think you should look into it. It's in the Original Post for this thread, and most of us here seem to agree that it's a very useful little guide./Edit

For the purpose of critique (and, really, in general), it is much easier to read a list if it fits the standard pattern. For example, I believe the list you just posted should look something like this:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh, XXXpts

Destroyer Lord, XXXpts
-Gear, if any

TROOPS
Necron Immortals 10, XXXpts
-Gear, if any
+Night Scythe

Necron Immortals 10, XXXpts
-Gear, if any
+Night Scythe

FAST ATTACK
Wraiths 6, XXXpts
-Whipcoils

Wraiths 6, XXXpts
-Whipcoils

Scarabs 8, XXXpts

TOTAL: 1500 points

The bolding is just my personal preference, but the inclusion of point values and marking which unit dedicated transports are attached to is pretty important.

The following is based solely upon hearsay rather than actual experience.
Regarding the list itself, it looks like what I suspect a lot of medium-point lists will look like for Necrons. Immortals are tough and have good guns, Night Scythes are the only way to move them around quickly, Wraiths are the only good assault unit (especially with a Destroyer Lord attached), and Zahndrekh is the best HQ in the book. I would like to agree with The Glyphstone, though--I doubt you need more than 3 Whip Coils per Wraith unit. That will end up saving you...what, 60 points? So you could buy...another Wraith? More Scarabs? Some equipment for that Destroyer Lord? I don't know, but someone who actually owns a Necron Codex may be able to make better suggestions.

[Ninjaman]

Brotherhood banner lolwut. Entire chapter of psykers stuck in an area where their minds are being torn asunder? Stick a flag their and everythings all right. I would use tervigons if it were not for the fact that I only have 17 Termagaunt models......

Then buy some.

Okay. Please walk them around out of cover. My plasma guns would like to say hi. Seriously, you don't need everything in the army to be capable of dealing with 2+; nobody's making the choice between the Medusa and the Colossus in isolation.

With an invul cover doesn't matter.

No, but they only need WS5 (4?) for the Termies to not hit them on 3's.

Codex marines termies hit gray knight termies on 4+, paladin or not.

[The Glyphstone]

If Flayed Ones had kept I4, they'd still be a great assault unit. Not as good as Wraiths, but better than the awful junk they are now.

[Renegade Paladin]

With an invul cover doesn't matter.

...

Are you even keeping track of what you're arguing against? If they have an invulnerable better than their cover save, then the Medusa isn't going to fare any better than the plasma guns. I'm not sure what the heck you're trying to say at this point.

[lord_khaine]

If Flayed Ones had kept I4, they'd still be a great assault unit. Not as good as Wraiths, but better than the awful junk they are now.

Especaly with a HQ choice to give them Furious charge :)

Though of course, not having grenades really makes it kinda moot.

The following is based solely upon hearsay rather than actual experience.
Regarding the list itself, it looks like what I suspect a lot of medium-point lists will look like for Necrons. Immortals are tough and have good guns, Night Scythes are the only way to move them around quickly, Wraiths are the only good assault unit (especially with a Destroyer Lord attached), and Zahndrekh is the best HQ in the book. I would like to agree with The Glyphstone, though--I doubt you need more than 3 Whip Coils per Wraith unit. That will end up saving you...what, 60 points? So you could buy...another Wraith? More Scarabs? Some equipment for that Destroyer Lord? I don't know, but someone who actually owns a Necron Codex may be able to make better suggestions.

Mindshacle scarabs, the most hilariously funny piece of wargear since the virus grenade, dont leave your Tombworld without some!

[The Glyphstone]

What are the mathematical odds that a L9-10 model (the only things that'll matter) will fail a 3d6 Ld test?

[IthilanorStPete]

What are the mathematical odds that a L9-10 model (the only things that'll matter) will fail a 3d6 Ld test?

Ld 9 - 62.5% chance of failure
Ld 10 - 50% chance of failure

[Etcetera]

What are the mathematical odds that a L9-10 model (the only things that'll matter) will fail a 3d6 Ld test?

My rudimentry mathhammer give a 1/54 chance of a Ld 10 model failing on 3d6, and a 1/27 chance of a Ld9 model failing, but it's quite possible I'm wrong.

[Cheesegear]

New Necron list.

Necrons are easy to do. Nothing has options.

Spoiler

Show

Nemesor Zahndrekh - 185 Points

Yep.

Destroyer Lord - 125 Points

No gear? Needs at least Mindshackle Scarabs.

Necron Inmortals (x10) - 270 Points
+ Night Schyte

Necron Inmortals (x10) - 270 Points
+ Night Schyte

270 points is a lot to pay for 10+Transport, but, Eldar are far worse off. I hope you aren't giving them Tesla weapons. If they've got Night Scythes, they probably don't need them.

I also heavily suggest bringing these guys down to 6/7 apiece. And adding a whole 'nother unit of 6/7. 1500 points wants four Troops, and at least 3 if you're trying to min-max.

Wraiths (x6) - 270 Points
Whip Coils

Wraiths (x6) - 270 Points
Whip Coils

Hootman already said that only about half of them need Whip Coils. +60 Points. Use it for a Sempiternal Weave and Mindshackles for your Destroyer Lord (-35).

Scarabs (x8) - 120 Points

I hate 'em. +145 Points. You can swap these guys out for 3 Destroyers and even upgrade one to Heavy. Or add another Night Scythe to your third unit of Immortals and then use the extra 45 points for...2 more Immortals.

...I also count your list as 1510, depending on Whip Coils.

[Trixie]

Fortunately things like Hormagaunts don't give two bits about Force Weapons.

...how about 20 S5 Ap5 shots?

Oh, and Rapid Fire? What's that?

Of course, there is one army that gives GKs nightmares. Eldar. Every Eldar army has a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Every GK unit has at least one psychic power. The casualties add up, fast. Particularly with more elite lists. SW Rune Priests can do some very unfriendly things as well.

Psykout and Aegis go a long towards evening the odds or eliminating enemy unit.

Black Templars, on the other hand, as I saw today, can just squeak and take it And ask for more.

Also, turns out when you need to fail that save in the last round, you'll save 10 times in a row, only to fail 11th which was better saved

[Provengreil]

I run a pretty similar list. A Grand Master, 20 Terminators, a Dreadknight and a Dreadnought. 23 models for 1500 points. Not particularly competitive, but I didn't start playing Grey Knights to be competitive. I play them for the awesome terminator models, and by the Emperor that's what I'm going to field.

And yet everyone still tries to assault them. I've even started warning the newer folks about some of my stuff. (Me: Friendly warning. See those pointy bits? Those are instant-death-before-you-even-strike Halberds. Don't run straight at them. Opponent: LEEEEROY JENKINS! WAAAARGH! *Cue seven Nobs assaulting ten Terminators plus my Grand Master*)

Except that Guard player. He did the smart thing, and shot me to death with Lascannons by the end of turn 3. My other major loss? A Black Templars player who brought lots of Hammernators along for the ride. I got hammered.

Maybe I should start using more Deathstars in Fantasy? Everyone really seems to like running straight at them around here.

To be fair, the only options a good close combat army has sometimes is to just charge in and hope they aren't better than you.

[Etcetera]

Ld 9 - 62.5% chance of failure
Ld 10 - 50% chance of failure

I haven't a clue where you're getting these numbers from.