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2011-11-26, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
As Renegade Paladin said, GK Force Weapons are just like normal Force Weapons in the main rule book. The only exception is that the entire unit, barring ICs, makes only a single, combined roll to apply them to the entire unit's attacks.
Not sure how he managed to kill 11 scarabs though. Even 5 GK Terminators with Falchions and a banner are only throwing out 15 Force weapon attacks (plus 3 normal attacks from the guy with the banner).
There are a few limitations, so make sure your opponent wasn't forgetting them. If he was, and he was doing it on purpose, start throwing things at him.
- Activating Force Weapons counts as using a psychic power, so he can't use Hammerhand in the same turn. This means that their attacks will be S4 (or S8 for Hammers, which ID Scarabs anyway).
- Still has to roll to hit and wound normally.
- Unless there's a Brotherhood Banner in the unit, he has to roll to activate the weapons on Ld 9. Even then, the guy holding the banner is only going to be throwing out 3 non-Power Weapon attacks at I4 WS4 S4.
EDIT Ninja'd and:
Not quite. There aren't just 3 Psykers a unit. Every GK is a psyker. All of them. Even the guy stuck driving the Rhino is a Psyker. The Dreadnoughts too. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule that they have means that units of them act like a single psyker though, making psychic tests together, only allowed to use a single power and so on. So 11 GKs, which I'd assume would be a unit of 10 GKs and an IC, would make two tests, one for the unit, one for the IC.
So yes, every GK with a force weapon is throwing out instant death (assuming they pass the test to activate them of course). Which tends to make assaulting them with multi-wound models and really bad idea.
There are two good ways to kill GKs in assault: Lots of single wound infantry who don't about force/power weapons OR models with good Invulnerable saves (because then GKs are really just S5 codex marines).
Whatever you do, don't send multi-wound models at them - GKs tend to be something of a hard counter to those. Except possibly Wraiths (if Wraiths are multi-wound models, not sure), thanks to their Invulnerable saves. I've not gone up against them myself yet, but GKs tend to rely pretty heavily on ignoring armour saves to win assault. A unit that gets a good save anyway might ruin their day.
You should probably note that not every GK has a Force Weapon either. PA guys with heavy weapons don't have one, nor do TA ones holding the banner. Techmarines have to pay points to upgrade from power to force as well. Attacks from those guys do not cause ID (unless attacking something that's T2, which is actually surprisingly likely with Rad Grenades).Last edited by Tome; 2011-11-26 at 11:13 PM.
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2011-11-26, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
So. Every Gk make like 3/4 Attacks, plus librarian, its 4 attacks per Gk like to scarabs so lets say 10 gks = 15 wounds on a 15 scarabs unit. So in 1 charge that Gks kill all my scarabs?
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2011-11-26, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Purifiers. (2 attacks each)
4 of them wielding Falchions
The rest using Halberds.
2- 1 with a psycannon, 1 with a incinerator
CHARGE =
4 puris (falchions) = 16
4 puris (halberds) = 12
28 force attacks
6 common attacks
Hammerhand? = no
HQ sold sepparatelyLast edited by Loki Eremes; 2011-11-26 at 11:31 PM.
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Spoiler2012? =
Gear of the Universe // D&D Steampunk campaing setting.
...You´re not afraid of the dark, are you?
" Self Defense !!! " - A sneaking Drow.
- Infinite Blades Technique:
...One Thousand Cuts -
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2011-11-26, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-11-26, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Nope. Normal GKs have 1 attack each. And it's increasing the cost of the unit by half again to increase that to 2.
Terminators and Purifiers have 2 attacks each, but are much more expensive and the upgrade to Falchions that gives them a 3rd attack is still almost universally considered the worst of their weapons due to the cost (partly the actual points cost, mostly the opportunity cost of not having the other, more awesome weapons). There is the Brotherhood Banner, which gives up one model's Force Weapon to add an extra attack to the rest of the unit, but only Terminators can take that.
So he could have 10 GKs pumping out 4 Instant Death attacks each (minus the guy holding the banner), but then he's looking at 475 points just for that. And the Librarian? He's another 170 points on top of that. In most games, that's between a third and a quarter of his army. Much, much more expensive than the scarabs. Attacking a 645 point unit with your Scarabs isn't supposed to result in a win.
Let me repeat that. He can do it for 645 points. You do not attack a deathstar like that unless you have it's hard counter. You stay away from it and shoot the rest of his army to death. And if he does get into CC, remember that Terminators can't Sweeping Advance (the big thing that Necrons hate about assault).
Alternatively, Purifiers can get up to 3 attacks each for a total of 290 points for 10 (assuming no shooting upgrades), and the 170 for the Librarian. That's 460 points total. They're still just T4 Marines in power armour. How quickly can you shoot a tactical squad to death? Because that's how you kill Purifiers.Last edited by Tome; 2011-11-27 at 12:16 AM.
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2011-11-26, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
-----------------------------------------------------
Spoiler2012? =
Gear of the Universe // D&D Steampunk campaing setting.
...You´re not afraid of the dark, are you?
" Self Defense !!! " - A sneaking Drow.
- Infinite Blades Technique:
...One Thousand Cuts -
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2011-11-26, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I run a pretty similar list. A Grand Master, 20 Terminators, a Dreadknight and a Dreadnought. 23 models for 1500 points. Not particularly competitive, but I didn't start playing Grey Knights to be competitive. I play them for the awesome terminator models, and by the Emperor that's what I'm going to field.
And yet everyone still tries to assault them. I've even started warning the newer folks about some of my stuff. (Me: Friendly warning. See those pointy bits? Those are instant-death-before-you-even-strike Halberds. Don't run straight at them. Opponent:LEEEEROY JENKINS!WAAAARGH! *Cue seven Nobs assaulting ten Terminators plus my Grand Master*)
Except that Guard player. He did the smart thing, and shot me to death with Lascannons by the end of turn 3. My other major loss? A Black Templars player who brought lots of Hammernators along for the ride. I got hammered.
Maybe I should start using more Deathstars in Fantasy? Everyone really seems to like running straight at them around here.Last edited by Tome; 2011-11-27 at 12:14 AM.
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2011-11-27, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
-----------------------------------------------------
Spoiler2012? =
Gear of the Universe // D&D Steampunk campaing setting.
...You´re not afraid of the dark, are you?
" Self Defense !!! " - A sneaking Drow.
- Infinite Blades Technique:
...One Thousand Cuts -
-
2011-11-27, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Well it is kind of not right when dealing with melée armies. Considering I play Tyranids so all of my big, slow, and multi wound monstrous creatures have to stay back and give the grey knight a little personal bubble or risk getting insta KOed by a singe jab to the creatures toe. Frustrating at times
“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2011-11-27, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Fortunately things like Hormagaunts don't give two bits about Force Weapons.
Seriously, you want to kill GKs in assault? Hordes basically put most of them down on the level of Tactical Squads in CC - particularly if something like Shadow in the Warp is stopping Hammerhand. Terminators usually just end up as I6 Shootynators. Both of those are perfectly killable.
My Orkish opponents still haven't figured out that their Boyz work better than their Nobs.
Of course, there is one army that gives GKs nightmares. Eldar. Every Eldar army has a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Every GK unit has at least one psychic power. The casualties add up, fast. Particularly with more elite lists. SW Rune Priests can do some very unfriendly things as well.Last edited by Tome; 2011-11-27 at 02:32 AM.
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2011-11-27, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
And yet somehow my 3d6 running hormagaunts manage to barely catch up to my Carnifex/Swarmlord. And don't get me started on my deep striking Trygon. Still, if I run a squad of 30 Hormagaunts at a Terminator squad, the Hormagaunts are going to most likely come on top nut be horribly wounded. Problem comes when I notice the other terminator squad right next to my hormagaunts and the other one behind that one.
“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2011-11-27, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-27, 06:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I saiid or. This list includes wraith, zoanthropes, lynchguard and so on.
What? They would need Ws9 for the termies to hit them on 5's
Short version? Never!
Shadow in the void makes all your problems a lot smaller. Also if you have tervigons (which you should) then you can just swarm them.
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2011-11-27, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-11-27, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-11-27, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2011-11-27, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
New Necron list.
Spoiler
HQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Destroyer Lord
Troops
Necron Inmortals x10
Necron Inmortals x10
Fast Attack
Wraiths Whipcoils x6
Wraiths Whipcoils x6
Scarabs x8
Dedicated Transport
Night Schyte
Night Schyte
1500
Thoughts?
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2011-11-27, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Swap a few of those Whip Coils in each squad for Particle Casters, or just remove them entirely. If the whole squad has Whip Coils, you can't play Musical Wounds with them.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-11-27, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I mean no disrespect, but weren't you already directed to Cheesegear's "How To Make Lists Easy To Read" thing?
Edit: It appears I may have been thinking of someone else. Either way, I think you should look into it. It's in the Original Post for this thread, and most of us here seem to agree that it's a very useful little guide./Edit
For the purpose of critique (and, really, in general), it is much easier to read a list if it fits the standard pattern. For example, I believe the list you just posted should look something like this:
SpoilerHQ
Nemesor Zahndrekh, XXXpts
Destroyer Lord, XXXpts
-Gear, if any
TROOPS
Necron Immortals 10, XXXpts
-Gear, if any
+Night Scythe
Necron Immortals 10, XXXpts
-Gear, if any
+Night Scythe
FAST ATTACK
Wraiths 6, XXXpts
-Whipcoils
Wraiths 6, XXXpts
-Whipcoils
Scarabs 8, XXXpts
TOTAL: 1500 points
The bolding is just my personal preference, but the inclusion of point values and marking which unit dedicated transports are attached to is pretty important.
The following is based solely upon hearsay rather than actual experience.
Regarding the list itself, it looks like what I suspect a lot of medium-point lists will look like for Necrons. Immortals are tough and have good guns, Night Scythes are the only way to move them around quickly, Wraiths are the only good assault unit (especially with a Destroyer Lord attached), and Zahndrekh is the best HQ in the book. I would like to agree with The Glyphstone, though--I doubt you need more than 3 Whip Coils per Wraith unit. That will end up saving you...what, 60 points? So you could buy...another Wraith? More Scarabs? Some equipment for that Destroyer Lord? I don't know, but someone who actually owns a Necron Codex may be able to make better suggestions.Last edited by Hootman; 2011-11-27 at 12:28 PM.
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2011-11-27, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
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2011-11-27, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
If Flayed Ones had kept I4, they'd still be a great assault unit. Not as good as Wraiths, but better than the awful junk they are now.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-11-27, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-11-27, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
If Flayed Ones had kept I4, they'd still be a great assault unit. Not as good as Wraiths, but better than the awful junk they are now.
Though of course, not having grenades really makes it kinda moot.
The following is based solely upon hearsay rather than actual experience.
Regarding the list itself, it looks like what I suspect a lot of medium-point lists will look like for Necrons. Immortals are tough and have good guns, Night Scythes are the only way to move them around quickly, Wraiths are the only good assault unit (especially with a Destroyer Lord attached), and Zahndrekh is the best HQ in the book. I would like to agree with The Glyphstone, though--I doubt you need more than 3 Whip Coils per Wraith unit. That will end up saving you...what, 60 points? So you could buy...another Wraith? More Scarabs? Some equipment for that Destroyer Lord? I don't know, but someone who actually owns a Necron Codex may be able to make better suggestions.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2011-11-27, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
What are the mathematical odds that a L9-10 model (the only things that'll matter) will fail a 3d6 Ld test?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2011-11-27, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-27, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-27, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Necrons are easy to do. Nothing has options.
SpoilerNemesor Zahndrekh - 185 Points
Destroyer Lord - 125 Points
Necron Inmortals (x10) - 270 Points
+ Night Schyte
Necron Inmortals (x10) - 270 Points
+ Night Schyte
I also heavily suggest bringing these guys down to 6/7 apiece. And adding a whole 'nother unit of 6/7. 1500 points wants four Troops, and at least 3 if you're trying to min-max.
Wraiths (x6) - 270 Points
Whip Coils
Wraiths (x6) - 270 Points
Whip Coils
Scarabs (x8) - 120 Points
...I also count your list as 1510, depending on Whip Coils.
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2011-11-27, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
...how about 20 S5 Ap5 shots?
Oh, and Rapid Fire? What's that?
Of course, there is one army that gives GKs nightmares. Eldar. Every Eldar army has a Farseer with Runes of Warding. Every GK unit has at least one psychic power. The casualties add up, fast. Particularly with more elite lists. SW Rune Priests can do some very unfriendly things as well.
Black Templars, on the other hand, as I saw today, can just squeak and take it And ask for more.
Also, turns out when you need to fail that save in the last round, you'll save 10 times in a row, only to fail 11th which was better savedCome one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
Current location of the last MLP Thread OP, too.
Want to ask me something? Use MAIL or message me on Steam!
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The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2011-11-27, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
"Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays."-Arthur Dent, The Hitchhiker's Guide
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Roy will be Xykon's Final Boss
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2011-11-28, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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