Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Ninjaman]

With Abhor the Witch? Yes. Free Scout move for everyone in the army because everyone takes Psykers. Immune to targeting powers. Double Cyclone Terminators for dirt cheap. Shooty armies can suck it because Templars move very fast. Dirt cheap Typhoons, etc.

Tau are crap. No psyker defense, absolutely terrible in Assault, and completely unprepared for Alpha Strikes and the entire army is made null and void by a single Plasma Siphon because Ward hates Tau...Or something.

Eldar have psyker defense, have solid assault units (I hate Dire Avengers so much), good anti-tank and perfectly fine anti-FNP. But they aren't the best. And my list reflects that.

What?

Well sure. But Tau have psyker defense in the form of shooting. And they may have major flaws but they can make some pretty good builds. They for one thing have S10 Ap1.
Also out of curiosity what does Dark angels got?

ONE special weapon is s7 ap2. The rest range from flamers (s4 ap5) to Melta-guns (s8 ap1).

And what he ment were that hot-shots lasguns is a special weapon compared to standard lasguns. The reason they cant take more is because they already have cool wargear. Kinda like Sternguard.

The flamer can hit 5-10 models at once and ignore cover. They don't have cool wargear, they have less sucky wargear. And sternguard have flexibility, storm troopers are anti-marine.

[Ricky S]

One of the guys at the local GW just bought a space marine megaforce and built an army comprised entirely of its components. He was thoroughly unimpressed with how it performed. Any advice I can give him on how to improve it?

[Cheesegear]

Works fine in low (as in no more than 1000) point games. Just forces you to rely on haemonculi and warriors, which isn't good.

There's nothing wrong with paying 50 points for a free Pain Token.

Nor are Warriors bad. There's some perfectly viable Warrior armies, but, they require Venoms to be any good, and seriously need support from the Heavy slots.

Playing All-Infantry Dark Eldar you get;

Haemonculi (you'll be shooting a lot, and FNP to start on shooty squads is good)
3 Kabalites + 2 Dark Lances
3 Kabalites + 2 Dark Lances
3 Kabalites + 2 Dark Lances
10 Warriors + Dark Lance and Blaster
10 Warriors + Dark Lance and Blaster
10 Warriors + Dark Lance and Blaster
5 Scourges + 2 Dark Lances
5 Scourges + 2 Dark Lances
5 Scourges + 2 Dark Lances

Let's say MCs don't count as vehicles which they are, they give Melta and Plasmaguns something to shoot at. But you need all your squads to get FNP as quickly as possible but still have the killy power that 5 more Haemonculi don't bring.
Cronus and Spirits
Cronus and Spirits
Cronus and Spirits

50
86, 86, 86
130, 130, 130
140, 140, 140
110, 110, 110

1448 Points. Add more Haemonculi to suit. That's the best I can come up with, and Model Count really isn't that spectacular for an All-In army.

One of the guys at the local GW just bought a space marine megaforce and built an army comprised entirely of its components. He was thoroughly unimpressed with how it performed. Any advice I can give him on how to improve it?

Thought that might be the case.
Starting from the Megaforce only, the best character to start is Kor'Sarro.

Wait, do you mean what's the best list he can make out of the Megaforce?
Or what should he buy next?

[Ricky S]

Thought that might be the case.
Starting from the Megaforce only, the best character to start is Kor'Sarro.

Wait, do you mean what's the best list he can make out of the Megaforce?
Or what should he buy next?

Either or.

[Hootman]

Wait, do you mean what's the best list he can make out of the Megaforce? Or what should he buy next?

Well, if it's the former, I have an idea for that, and if it's the latter, I can offer some obvious weaknesses.

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HQ
Vulkan He'stan, 190pts

ELITES
Ironclad Dreadnought, 205pts
-2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Hunter Killer Missiles
+Drop Pod

Sternguard 5, 180pts
-4 Combimeltas, Heavy Flamer

TROOPS
Tactical Squad 10, 195pts
-Meltagun, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Combimelta

Tactical Squad 10, 195pts
-Meltagun, Lascannon
-Sergeant: Combimelta

Scouts 5, 85pts
-Sniper Rifles, Heavy Bolter [Hellfire Shells]

Scouts 5, 75pts
-Shotguns

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder, 70pts
-Heavy Flamer, Multimelta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider Crusader, 260pts
-Multimelta

TOTAL: 1455 points

Ironclad in a Drop Pod for alpha striking, Sternguard and Vulkan in the LRC for point-blank annialation around Turn 2 or 3. The Tacticals can provide covering fire while being anti-Drop Pod (sort of) or break apart to hunt different things if you're not worried about kill points. The Shotgun Scouts should Outflank most likely, while the others try to set up in a good little nest and stay alive. The Landspeeder is a flexible piece of equipment, doing whatever it wants.

CONVERSIONS: This list would require numerous conversions or 'Counts-As' to work on anything but the friendliest tables.

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1. SM Commander = Vulkan. If this guy is metal, it could be a huge pain, so making him an elaborate Sternguard and just making a Command or Tactical guy into Vulkan may be a better option. If he's plastic, there shouldn't be many problems. Pick up a Halberd from a GK player who's willing to part with one, weld a flamer or two to his other arm, and give him a sweet cape.

2. Venerable = Ironclad. This one's only a pain if you can't figure out how to get him a second DCCW. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything off the top of my head at the moment.

3. Sternguard & Tactical Combi-weapons. Personally, when I was starting out, I just got some small colored elastics to represent which type of combi-weapon the model had. Red for melta, green for plasma, and yellow for flamer. Your color-based short-hand may vary.

3. There are only 5 Scouts. Actually, there are 10, it's just that 5 are super glued to that flying tissue box, the Land Speeder Storm. As amusing as I find the LSS, it's not as good as a regular Land Speeder in a list like this, in my opinion (see below). So, just pop those guys out, give them a few bits of terrain to sit or stand on, and off you go! It's what I did, and those guys are honestly some of my favorite minor conversions.

4. Sniper Rifles? But... But nothing. With a drill, some medium-gauge wire, and bit of plastic tubing or similar, bolters become sniper rifles in about 20 minutes. Again, speaking from experience. Tack some scopes on the top, and no one can tell you those aren't sniper rifles.

5. LS Storm = Land Speeder. This one's easier than it might sound. Once the extra Scouts are out of the way, a few well-placed pieces of cardboard or plasticard will close that Open-Topped part. Add in a driver from whatever left over Marine bits you have lying around (vehicle commanders and the like usually have something you can swipe) and BAM, instantly it's a different vehicle. If you're clever about it, you can even make the conversion reversible, so that it can become a Storm again if you ever want it back. I intend to do this...eventually. I'll get around to it. >>;

As you may be able to tell, conversion is probably my favorite part of this hobby. If your friend is less enthusiastic about such things, unfortunately this list won't do them much good. It's not perfect, but given what I had to work with, I think it's fairly solid and should do well in any casual play. Maybe even too well, since Vulkan seems to be the kind of guy who makes people furious.

STRENGTHS: Twin-linked everything that matters. If the first two turns go well, the game should be yours, in my opinion.

WEAKNESSES: Lack of transports means the Tacticals are going to be either out in the open or buried in cover with the Scouts. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes it very hard to advance. Lack of long range killing power (especially vehicle killing power) means you have to rush the enemy in order to get all those meltas into range. If the Drop Pod-Clad screws up in some way (bad scatter, misses, gets blindsided, botches a cover save or whatever) and the LRC gets popped before getting into its effective range, you'll likely have some serious issues. The list only has 4 vehicles, so that could be a problem depending on what kind of enemy you're up against.

[IthilanorStPete]

You'd need to read the Guard codex to get it. Here, I'll help you.

This is the one situation in which you use mortars. If you really want pinning, you want more of it, and that's all a mortar squad is good for.

Ah, right! So maybe an infantry platoon with 2 infantry squads and number max number of heavy weapons squads, plus a squad of veterans with snipers...ands use Medusas/infantry heavy weapons for tanks. How's that sound?
P.S. I know this won't be as good as a usual cookie-cutter Guard list; I want to try something a little different.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ah, right! So maybe an infantry platoon with 2 infantry squads and number max number of heavy weapons squads, plus a squad of veterans with snipers...ands use Medusas/infantry heavy weapons for tanks. How's that sound?
P.S. I know this won't be as good as a usual cookie-cutter Guard list; I want to try something a little different.

If your veterans are going to hold still with sniper rifles, put a mortar team in each squad with them too. It's easy to forget they can do that, since in most cases you don't want to tie them down with a heavy weapon, but they can and if they're holding still with rifles they might as well.

[Winterwind]

Speaking of non-cookie cutter Imperial Guard armies... how well would an army focused on having as many assault tanks as possible work? As in, a few Veterans in Chimeras for Troops, a few Leman Russes or Medusae/Colossi for long range fire support, but the core of the army consisting of no less than 9 Hellhounds/Banewolves/Devil Dogs (in some combination)? I've always liked those little assault tanks conceptually for some reason, and this is an army idea I'd been toying with for ages.

Mind, I've sworn to myself to first significantly reduce that mountain of still not unpacked minis that I have in my wardrobe before comitting to any new projects - I still have to built my whole Warriors of Chaos army, I want to further increase my Wood Elf army, I've got all of this stuff for my Chaos Space Marines Black Legion army, then there's this whole issue of the Emperor's Children army I also want to start (and already have largely lying around here), so in short, I wouldn't be starting this sooner than in a year, most likely, but still, I'd be rather interesting in hearing already now whether this idea might work, or whether it's just stupid.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hellhounds and their variants are quite solid. You'd give Dark Eldar fits, especially if you got some Hydras going in your heavy support slots, because they're all AV12, so they're spending a lot of extra points on the lance rule and it isn't doing anything for them. Between the three varieties, they're anti-everything and can be anywhere on the board in two turns, so I could really see it working.

[Tychris1]

Space marines are better than tyranids.

LIES! All lies. 15 Carnifi gogogo!

[Eldan]

I recreated the King in Yellow today.

Kinda.

See, I wanted to properly introduce my new converted Shadowseer (he is made up as the King in Yellow, given that he is a performer who gives people hallucinations and insanity), so I borrowed all the Harlequin everyone in the shop owned and made a list featuring 30 of them, along with mostly jetbikes and vypers.

A lot of fun: me and a Tau player, 1500 points each, against traitor IG and Chaos Marines. We won pretty nicely, the Tau taking down the heavy stuff, me ripping apart dozens of IG soldiers every turn.

[Ninjaman]

LIES! All lies. 15 Carnifi gogogo!

No, the bitter truth.

And this.

Don't know what i think about it myself, but i just wanted to link it so that you guys could watch it.

[Talkkno]

Couldn't using a lot of hellions for mostly Dark Eldar infantry army work?

[Tychris1]

No, the bitter truth.

LALALALALALA I'M NOT HEARING YOU LALALALALALALA *Shoves fingers into ear and blows money on more Monstrous Creatures/Heirophants*

[Cheesegear]

Either or.

As-is.

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Captain - 140 Points
Combi-Melta, Relic Blade

Command Squad - 180 Points
x2 Meltaguns, x2 Flamers
+ Drop Pod

Venerable Dreadnought - 185 Points
Assault Cannon, Missile Launcher

Tactical Squad (x10) - 180 Points
Missile Launcher, Plasmagun

Tactical Squad (x10) - 180 Points
Missile Launcher, Plasmagun

Scouts (x5) - 100 Points
Shotguns
Sergeant; Power Fist and Shotgun

Land Speeder Storm - 65 Points
Multi-Melta

Land Raider Redeemer - 250 Points
Multi-Melta

Total: 1280 Points.
Drop the Plasmaguns on the Tactical Squad, and drop the Flamers on the Command Squad, and you're 1250, which is perfect points size. Hopefully you wont deal with hordes and Terminator/SG/FNP spam.

The Meltaguns and Flamers on the Command Squad comes from the Tactical Sprues. Using the two Plasma Pistols from each Tactical Sprue, you can fairly easily make Plasmaguns, in that case, you've got four Plasmaguns for the Command Squad and put the Meltas on the Tacticals. The Power Fist on the Sergeant comes from the Commander Sprue and looks fine.

What to get next; If you want none of the models to go to waste (including the Land Raider), swap out the Captain for either Kor'Sarro or He'Stan. Grab some Hammernators.
With He'Stan making the Hammers Master-Crafted, and Kor'Sarro giving them Furious Charge, you probably want 2:3 LCATs:Hammers. Either character goes fine.

Next thing is pick up some Razorbacks, and use them as Rhinos until you get more Razorbacks, then pick up a third Tactical Squad.

Immediately pick up some Devastators. Put Lascannons in your Tactical Squads and put those Missile Launchers into your Devastators and you should now have four Missiles and two Lascannons. If you want, you can make that third Tactical Squad into Multi-Melta and Meltagun in a Rhino. Kor'Sarro and He'Stan both love that idea.

And then it just depends on what you like.

[Ninjaman]

With He'Stan making the Hammers Master-Crafted, and Kor'Sarro giving them Furious Charge, you probably want 2:3 LCATs:Hammers. Either character goes fine.

I thought you could only exchange combat tactics for one of them.

[IthilanorStPete]

I thought you could only exchange combat tactics for one of them.

Khan giving his unit Hit & Run/Furious Charge is separate from his Chapter Tactics.

[Trixie]

Speaking of non-cookie cutter Imperial Guard armies... how well would an army focused on having as many assault tanks as possible work? As in, a few Veterans in Chimeras for Troops, a few Leman Russes or Medusae/Colossi for long range fire support, but the core of the army consisting of no less than 9 Hellhounds/Banewolves/Devil Dogs (in some combination)? I've always liked those little assault tanks conceptually for some reason, and this is an army idea I'd been toying with for ages.

I have testes various squadrons of IG vehicles pretty heavily recently, and...

Well, this is, IMHO, unit with colossal rock-paper-scissor problem. Most of the time, it's fine, bears heavy amount of firepower (maybe even too much in some cases), and as long as your enemy has 1-2 AT guns in an unit, pretty safe to use. The problems, however, start as soon as something with heavy AT shows up on table, doubly so if it's capable of Alpha Strike. Fire Dragons? GK Termies with 2x Psycannons? Suicide Sternguard full of combi-meltaguns? Psyrifleman? Congratulations, since these are AV12 you probably have to allocate at least 1 penetrating hit on each, and seeing squadrons kill vehicles on 4+ instead of 5+, you probably just lost 450 pts of vehicles due to just one unit, nevermind these 2 Hellhounds were far outside the range of Fire Dragons, they fall off the table.

So, as long as you keep that in mind while deciding if you want it, you should be pretty good

[Ninjaman]

Khan giving his unit Hit & Run/Furious Charge is separate from his Chapter Tactics.

Oh yea. Khan's tactics are fleet right?
But why is furious charge good on hammernators, i can see it being very useful on lightningclaw terminators, (Lightnators?), But why is S9 so much better than S8?

[Squark]

Oh yea. Khan's tactics are fleet right?
But why is furious charge good on hammernators, i can see it being very useful on lightningclaw terminators, (Lightnators?), But why is S9 so much better than S8?

If memory serves, Khan gives everything outflank. Could be wrong about that one, though (Raven Guard with Shrike is the one that gives Fleet). And I think the real allure is I2... Actually, I2 is still pretty bad against things that are not other hammernators. Seems to me that you'd be better off with a Librarian as your second HQ, to me at least.

[Trixie]

Oh yea. Khan's tactics are fleet right?
But why is furious charge good on hammernators, i can see it being very useful on lightningclaw terminators, (Lightnators?), But why is S9 so much better than S8?

Penetrating AV14? No chance of missing AV10?

If memory serves, Khan gives everything outflank. Could be wrong about that one, though (Raven Guard with Shrike is the one that gives Fleet). And I think the real allure is I2... Actually, I2 is still pretty bad against things that are not other hammernators. Seems to me that you'd be better off with a Librarian as your second HQ, to me at least.

It's still I1, actually...

[Squark]

Penetrating AV14? No chance of missing AV10?



It's still I1, actually...

*d'oh* Right... I knew that...

Hmm... How often do people assault tanks with Hammerators, though. I always thought you threw them at high value infantry first.


Then again, I've never played with hammernators, so I haven't exactly learned to use them.

[Trixie]

Hmm... How often do people assault tanks with Hammerators, though. I always thought you threw them at high value infantry first.

<shrug> Mech is king. Sometimes it's really the only viable target.

That, and wounding T8 on 3+, T7 on 2+, etc also comes in handy sometimes.

[Ninjaman]

<shrug> Mech is king. Sometimes it's really the only viable target.

That, and wounding T8 on 3+, T7 on 2+, etc also comes in handy sometimes.

How often? Not very often.

Penetrating AV14? No chance of missing AV10?

Is that worth 160 points? Why don't you just shoot it?

[Trixie]

How often? Not very often.

*shrug* Last game my Terminators went against small army of Wraithlords and Wraithseers. Wounding on more than 4+ would have been damn useful, I pointlessly lost 11 Terminators (including Captain in TA*) thanks to not being able to kill them quick enough.

*We started Badab War Campaign, currently on 3rd mission. I must say, pity that supplements like IA9 aren't more common, they really breathed new life into old, predictable Codex.

[Timberwolf]

How often? Not very often.



Is that worth 160 points? Why don't you just shoot it?

Often enough to make it nice to have. On the other hand, once is often enough for that.

Now then. Point number 2.

Indeed my dear fellow, "just shooting" the Landraider / Monolith is a most valid solution. The lascannon offers equivalent performance to a Furious Charging Hammernator. However, it offers a single hit, whereas the Hammernators, assuming the squad is intact but minimum spec, will give you up to 15. Even if it is only a single Hammernator left, there will be 3 hits at S9 to the lascannon's one. Also, if the vehicle did not move, these auto hit.

Why not deploy the vaunted Melta gun ? Well, not everyone does, of course, for whatever reason, the same as anything else, including, on a personal note, Hammernators. Also, unless you drop a Sternpod / Podnaught, chances are that said AV14 vehicle will have made a thorough nuisance of itself long before the melta gets there, whereas the Hammernator can deepstrike right next to it and be in its face next turn. The Sternpod is expensive and you don't expect them to survive, and getting through AV14 is hardly a given, even with 10 of them ( I personally just have managed to immobilise a Landraider with one. I was hoping for something more cataclysmic). The Podnaught is expensive too and has a 1 in 3 chance of missing even if the vehicle didn't move and is also only one melta shot.

Then there's the Demolisher Cannon This is great, but has its downsides. Well, for its role, it is mounted on an eggshell that's far too easy to blast through the side armour of. If it gets to hit, it'll make a mess. But it'll be priority target # 1. so draw your own conclusions. Plus it's using a heavy slot I can spend on a Stormraven, with a Multimelta and lascannons, that is loaded with 5 Hammernators and a Terminator Sanguinary Priest that can go 24 inches, drop them exactly where I want and watch them go to town on that Monolith, assuming the Multimelta didn't get it first.

Anyway, S9 Hammernators have their place. I don't use them myself, but I can see their appeal. All those S9 potentially auto hitting attacks are rather tempting.

[Ninjaman]

*shrug* Last game my Terminators went against small army of Wraithlords and Wraithseers. Wounding on more than 4+ would have been damn useful, I pointlessly lost 11 Terminators (including Captain in TA*) thanks to not being able to kill them quick enough.

*We started Badab War Campaign, currently on 3rd mission. I must say, pity that supplements like IA9 aren't more common, they really breathed new life into old, predictable Codex.

I can't comment on a campain with different rules.

Often enough to make it nice to have. On the other hand, once is often enough for that.

No. I would never take something if it is only going to be useful once.

Indeed my dear fellow, "just shooting" the Landraider / Monolith is a most valid solution. The lascannon offers equivalent performance to a Furious Charging Hammernator. However, it offers a single hit, whereas the Hammernators, assuming the squad is intact but minimum spec, will give you up to 15. Even if it is only a single Hammernator left, there will be 3 hits at S9 to the lascannon's one. Also, if the vehicle did not move, these auto hit

Why would it not move. And the raider/monolith is faster so you will have to catch it. If it has moved cruising the hammernater will hit with 0,5 while the lascannon hit with 0,66. If it moves combat it is 1,5 against 0,66. But this isn't enough to ofset actually cathing it.

Why not deploy the vaunted Melta gun ? Well, not everyone does, of course, for whatever reason, the same as anything else, including, on a personal note, Hammernators. Also, unless you drop a Sternpod / Podnaught, chances are that said AV14 vehicle will have made a thorough nuisance of itself long before the melta gets there, whereas the Hammernator can deepstrike right next to it and be in its face next turn. The Sternpod is expensive and you don't expect them to survive, and getting through AV14 is hardly a given, even with 10 of them ( I personally just have managed to immobilise a Landraider with one. I was hoping for something more cataclysmic). The Podnaught is expensive too and has a 1 in 3 chance of missing even if the vehicle didn't move and is also only one melta shot.

I don't think you can drop Khan without a pod. And doesn't terminators teleport onto the battlefield.

[Trixie]

And frankly, in that case, it looks silly to have Marines wielding Bolters in one hand. Not sure whether an Assault marine with 2 chainswords would look similarly silly.

You were saying?

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Yeah, I kinda love the look of DoW art, it really makes armour look like armour, not thin clothing, and Marines look imposing, like they were towering over normal men

[Hootman]

Why would it not move. And the raider/monolith is faster so you will have to catch it.

1. Previously shaken or immobilized by your high-S gun.
2. To fire more weapons.
3. Because your opponent doesn't expect you to go after the vehicle if there's another valid target nearby.
4. Because your opponent forgets to move it before they start their shooting phase, after which it's too late.

Monoliths totally aren't faster than Terminators, anyways. Unless it's cruising (can it do that now?), and if it's doing that, then it can't shoot anymore. Win-Win as far as I'm concerned. Same deal with LR's, generally speaking, although the Power of the Machine Spirit removes a few of the problems.

I don't think you can drop Khan without a pod. And doesn't terminators teleport onto the battlefield.

Considering that Timberwolf is a known BA player and made several references to Blood Angel units in their post, I'm going to guess that they weren't talking about using Korsarro Khan. I believe they were responding to "Why would S9 Terminators (which you can get in BA by succumbing to Red Thirst or having a Priest nearby, and in Vanilla with K.Khan in the unit) come in handy?"

However, you are correct. Korsarro cannot deep strike, to my knowledge, without being attached to a unit in a Drop Pod. And terminators can generally teleport (though it's dangerous without a Homer/Beacon on the field), unless they are Space Wolves, in which case they apparently Pod down. Go figure.

As an aside, what army(ies) do you actually play, Ninjaman? I've noticed you commenting a good deal recently, but don't recall you claiming a faction in any way--I like to know where people's perspectives come from.

[Provengreil]

*d'oh* Right... I knew that...

Hmm... How often do people assault tanks with Hammerators, though. I always thought you threw them at high value infantry first.

usually, but hammernators charge what they can, and sometimes it has armor. in any case, any single hit is already a shaken, so there's that.

Why not deploy the vaunted Melta gun ? Well, not everyone does, of course, for whatever reason, the same as anything else, including, on a personal note, Hammernators. Also, unless you drop a Sternpod / Podnaught, chances are that said AV14 vehicle will have made a thorough nuisance of itself long before the melta gets there, whereas the Hammernator can deepstrike right next to it and be in its face next turn.

which, if they're deep striking, isn't first turn and the things made a nuisance of itself anyway.

-snip-

Anyway, S9 Hammernators have their place. I don't use them myself, but I can see their appeal. All those S9 potentially auto hitting attacks are rather tempting.

much of this argument seems predicated on the AV 14 vehicle either not moving, or not doing its job. all told, you're looking at number while ignoring the tactics required to make those numbers happen: anyone who doesn't move a vehicle that terminators can charge will have a very good reason for doing so, one that will possibly make the terminator charge impossible or moot.