Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Tren]

I've seen Wraithlords be effective when spammed, especially with an Avatar thrown in the mix. Dark Eldar stop them cold, and psycannon spam is a bit nasty, but on the whole they still hold up reasonably well against a variety of opponents.

[Cheesegear]

Well, we're basically done with Grey Knights. Kind of fun, eh? No. Maybe. Probably not.
HQ, Elites, and everything else. So what's this post for, then? Well, the Special Characters, and why you should - or should not - pick them.

Brother-Captain Stern - 200 Points

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He's a Brother-Captain with Mastery Level 2 (which normal BCs can't get), a nice little rule and a funky psychic power. In return, you lose the ability to take other stuff, like Brain Mines and Rad Grenades. The lack of an Incinerator also cuts pretty deeply, since I started to rely on my BCs for that.

Strands of Fate; I nearly always use it to save myself from Power Fists. The problem is, that only Stern can use this roll. Whereas your opponent can use his re-roll for anyone he owns, which means this ability puts the advantage squarely on your opponent's side. It helps Stern live longer and deal more damage. But your opponent gets anything he wants.

Zone of Banishment; You give up your attacks to do this. Which means if your opponent negates it, you don't do anything for the Assault phase. It reminds me of an 'anime power', where when the rest of your squad has been killed, Stern powers up and kills everyone. Since it doesn't deal wounds, it kills Eternal Warriors, which makes it a colossal pain in the arse. Since it targets models, you can use it to target Sergeants with Power Fists (S4, by the way).

Summary; Not awful. Strands of Fate is only to be used when you absolutely need it. Against, say Tactical Marines "Oh, I missed one attack, I'll re-roll that." is not the time to use Strands of Fate. Zone of Banishment is fun when it works (if it kills 3+ models or an IC, it worked).

Grand Master Mordrak - 200 Points

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Grand Master - 185 Points
Master-Crafted Hammer

Similar to Stern, losing out on Brain Mines and Rad Grenades and an Incinerator is kind of a kick in the pants. As is having a Hammer on an I5 Independent Character, however, he does have an extra attack over a regular GM. Considering he's also keeping Grand Strategy, it makes him kind of good. So, you're paying 15 points for rules...

First to the Fray; o_o. Dante wishes he was this good. Unfortunately, Mordrak is not an Independent Character and you're limited to...

Ghost Knights; Meh. They're Terminators with extremely limited upgrades, in exchange for Stealth. Terminators can already Score (you don't have to waste your Grand Strategy on them).

Summary; Average. The tactical option that FttF opens up is very, very, very good. Deathwing uses it all the time. And, again, Dante wishes he could show up on the first turn. It's just a shame that Ghost Knights aren't really all that spectacular and are a 'hidden cost' to Mordrak. Mordrak is ~400 points?

And you've got Grand Strategy as well, for whatever you want to use that for. If he didn't keep Grand Strategy, he'd be pretty bad.

Karamazov - 200 Points

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Umm...Okay. I don't know what this guy is doing in a Grey Knights Codex, but he's here.

Master-Crafted Multi-Melta is very nice. As is a S5 Power Weapon (I4 ). He also drops Orbitals. On his own team.

But, yeah. Unlike Mephiston, he's a big model (can't keep him out of LoS), and he's only got T5, which means he can be Insta-Gibbed by a S10 weapon if your opponent has one, and worse news, he doesn't have an Invulnerable, and S10 weapons tend to be AP2. I suppose you could hide him behind a building and drop Orbitals. But a Techmarine does that.

Summary; Below Average. If your opponent has any S10 weapons, they'll be targeted at him and there's 200 points down the drain. You can't hide him, and, by extension his squad. The other concern is only four wounds and no Invulnerable. Which means he's pretty easy fodder in comparison to other non-MC models like Sanguinor or Mephiston. Take Stern over this guy.

Valeria - 140 Points

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A Xenos Inquisitor without Rad Grenades or a Plasma Siphon. Why do Special Characters never have the best stuff? She does have a 4+ Invulnerable which is kind of good.

Graviton Beamer; One Shot. BS4. Unlike Necrons, you don't have a Harbinger of Eternity to help you out. 12" range is also kind of painful. Wouldn't it be better to have a Xenos Inquisitor with a Conversion Beamer? It would? Oh.

Dagger of Midnight; Djin Blade. Bad for Dark Eldar, bad here. Just take an Inquisitor with Power Weapon and Digital Weapons.

Hyperstone Maze; If you're going to take anything out of the Necron Codex, my choice wouldn't be this. But it is pretty good.

Runes of Destiny; Allows her to kill herself more easily when her Dagger goes bad.

Summary; Pretty bad. She's cheap which is always a plus when it comes to Uniques. But she's missing all the key wargear when it comes to Xenos Inquisitors which makes her kind of annoying to see.

Xenos Inquisitor - 93 Points
Power Weapon, Conversion Beamer, Digital Weapons
Power Armour

While not a perfect copy, you can add Rad/Psychotroke Grenades, turn into a Psyker, add a Plasma Siphon and possibly even some Servo Skulls for the Conversion Beamer and be better and cheaper.

Well, those are all the Bad-to-Average Special Characters. Here are the good ones. Isn't it weird how all the good ones actually change the way your army is played?

Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points

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He costs the same as a Brotherhood Champion, and doesn't wear Terminator Armour. Which means he's pretty much perfect for small point games, and, due to his cost and ability to ride in Transports you can actually take him whenever you want - and you should. Because he's awesome. An Independent Character with a Hammer is bad to see though. But that's not why you're taking him.

Psyber-Eagle; Not exactly awful. Against 4+ saves or better, he basically counts as having an extra 1-3 Storm Bolters in the unit. Not bad. As with all AP- weapons, it gets worse the worse your opponent's armour save is. Because your opponent shouldn't be getting an armour save in the first place if it's that bad. GO BOLTERS!

Spy Network; Well that's just not fair. Your opponent will be jumping up and down for joy when he rolls a '6' and gets the first turn, only to have you crush his dreams. Seizing the Initiative is hard enough as-is, going "Nah." is just mean.

I've Been Expecting You; Grey Knights don't necessarily play the Reserve-game. But, with Warp Quake and Coteaz, neither can anyone else. If you attach Coteaz to a Purgation Squad or Purifiers, you can waste people's Reserves because they don't even get to act. Dominates Tyranids (they play the Reserve-game often, and have low Armour Saves) and you'll be dropping DoA Blood Angels out of the sky, Dark Eldar armies with Portals are up the creek with no paddle (low armour saves), and...Yeah. If your opponent knows you've got Coteaz on the board, he might not use Reserves, and that can put a damper on this battle plan.
Just the threat of Coteaz can win the game for you (even if you don't know it yet because you're only in the Deployment Phase).

Warbands-As-Troops; I'm not unimpressed. I mean, it basically functions as Imperial Guard. And, well, no-one is knocking Imperial Guard off their perch at being Imperial Guard (y'know, like how Blood Angels and Space Wolves are better at being Chaos Marines than Chaos Marines are?). But, certainly if you're dead-set at playing Grey Knights-with-Coteaz and need to play a small-point game, then Warbands-as-Troops is very nice.

Summary; AMAZING. He comes in at 100 points, which is what other armies (Marines) are paying for their HQs (Librarians), so you're on parity. But Spy Network is worth like...Everything when you can cancel out your opponent's StI roll, or when you get it on the re-roll. And, remember, he doesn't even have to go in a Warband, and functions better in a Strike, Purifier or Purgation Squad. At 100 points, he can also function as a Second HQ perfectly fine in larger point games.

Remember, Coteaz's abilities are not tied to Warbands.

Castellan Crowe - 150 Points

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Average. Gabriel Seth v2.0. And Seth isn't that great to begin with.
His only downside is that he is a non-IC/MC, and so can't join squads, and doesn't have the Toughness or Eternal Warrior to back it up. He must be kept out of sight, or ride in his own Transport, otherwise he's a free Kill Point.
Also, he traded his Annointed Blade (Force Weapon with re-rolls) for...Nothing, that makes his enemies hate him.

In non-Annhilation game tactics? Run him at the biggest unit/threat you can find. A large blob of Infantry? Cleansing Flame into Sword Storm (I6). Remember, Sword Storm targets models which means you can remover Power Weapons and Fists and then start rolling your 2+ save all day.

Against opposing ICs, he's not that great, since he doesn't have access to a Force Weapon. But, against MCs is where he really shines, since normally he would wound on 6s, but, instead, he wounds on 4s and has a Power Weapon. Which is why he's not that good against Infantry ICs, he's basically wounding on 4s all the time anyway with a regular Power Weapon - and anyone can do that.

Summary; At best, Crowe is a minor hindrance to your opponent. Being non-IC/MC means 'just shoot it'. Or you can have him 'inside' a squad for a Cover Save, because being non-IC allows you to do that. At worst, he's a free Kill Point (and/or Pain Token) to your opponent since he's fairly easily killed.

Unlike Coteaz, Crowe is not good on his own, and a lot of his 'worth' is tied up in Purifiers. In Essence, Crowe is a tax. And taxes are bad, mostly. But, Taxes help pay for other things...

So, why take Crowe? Purifiers-as-Troops of course! I herd u liek Psycannons.

Crowing
Purifiers (x5) - 140 Points
x2 Psycannons [Cleansing Flame]

Strike Squad (x5) - 110 Points
x1 Psycannon [Warp Quake]

140 Points? Hammer. x2 Halberds = 164 Points. Hell, you can spam that all day! Since there's no hidden costs in Purifiers, why don't you just times that by two for 'x10' for 328 Points. Yes, yes, that's expensive and I advised against it before. But, now that Purifiers are Scoring, you want as many of the board as you can get. Kind of like how Pedro wants 20 Sternguard on the board not Suicide-ing - but you can still have another 10 that are.

Crowe - 150
Purifiers - 328
Purifiers - 328
Strike Knights - 110 (PROTIP; Warp Quake)

916. 2 Rhinos. 996/1000 Points. 9 Psycannons and most of the army is Fearless. MSU/Hordes and Light Vehicles (i.e; Most of the current meta-game) die in droves. However, it is very much a 'Scissor' army and gets easily crushed by 'Rock' (i.e; Heavy Infantry/Tanks). Again, the lack of Melta and Plasma on Grey Knights rears it's ugly head because you're forced to rely on the Psycannons getting their Rends off, or rolling up the board to Hammer stuff, neither of which are particularly reliable.

You can Combat Squad for no difference. Like I said, Purifiers don't have any hidden costs. In higher point limits MSU will give you access to more vehicles. But, in 1000 points you can only afford two Rhinos anyway, so why not have two units of Purifiers?

Purifiers-as-Troops is a solid, fun list. Yes, it's terribly 'one trick', but the one trick works against a lot of things. Most of the Internet says Purifiers 'can't be done'. I don't agree. But that's me. In larger games you can round out the list a bit more.

Draigo - 275 Points

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The most over-rated character in the book, mostly because he's tied to the most over-rated unit in the book - Paladins.

Not that he's bad. Hell no. Not by a long shot. T5, 4 Wounds, a 3+ Invulnerable and Eternal Warrior, as well as an S5, I5 Instant Death effect puts him squarely in the 'Tier 1' block of characters, and that's before you take into account his Force Multiplying.

He has Grand Strategy, and a mediocre Template weapon as well as being Fearless, unfortunately, the only Fearless unit in the 'dex are Purifiers (not Paladins ) meaning Draigo needs to join them or lose it. Still if you take Purifiers you can use Grand Strategy to make them Scoring as well, or re-roll Hits, etc.

Titansword; Psyk-Out Grenades and S10. Yeah, Draigo rolls most psykers in the game without even needing to take a Psychic Test which can be negated.

Summary; So, yeah. Draigo is kind of awesome. Right him around in a Stormraven with a unit of Terminators or Purifiers or something. Rock, rock on! His expensiveness kind of puts him over the edge, considering that your Troops are already expensive.

Draigowing
Paladins-as-Troops; Good. But not as good as it is on first glance. Remember, Draigo is 275 points, and Paladins are 55 points each - before upgrades.

Draigo - 275 Points

Paladins (x10) - 690 Points
Psycannon and Sword
Psycannon and Halberd
Psycannon and Stave
Incinerator and Sword
Hammer
MC Hammer
Halberd
MC Halberd
Sword
Brotherhood Banner
+ Psybolt Ammunition

[x3 Psycannons, Incinerator, x6 Storm Bolters, x3 Swords, x3 Halberds, x2 Hammers, Stave and Banner = 20 Arms] That's how I do it.

Paladins (x5) - 315 Points
x2 Psycannons, Hammer

1280 Points. You may have to drop some wargear to bring it down to 1250. That's about as low as this list goes. Since you're already so far up in the points, don't bother adding more Paladins. They're Scoring, hard to kill and you can Combat Squad the Death Star anyway. No, what you want is cheap stuff. Psyflemen or Inquisitor Warbands.

Summary; Draigowing is expensive. Real, proper Deathwing is not. In 'Rock' lists, the key to winning is models on the board, which Draigowing doesn't have. Again, like Crowe, Draigo is still relying mostly on Psycannons to do the job of busting tanks.

Over-rated, yet still reasonable. I don't go anywhere near it under 1500 points. Whereas Deathwing can be played in 1000 and 1250 quite easily.

Summary;
Coteaz is amazing. Unless you absolutely need the Xenos Inquisitor (probably), you should probably pick Coteaz every time. He really is quite good. The Xenos Inquisitor is also cheap. Why not have both?

Crowe is less than okay. But a Purifier army is decent and solid, but loses handily to a not-uncommon obvious counter.

Draigo is amazing on his own. Anything with Eternal Warrior and their own Instant Death effect always is (in fact, those are the pre-reqs to be 'Tier 1'). Draigo-wing is an expensive, small-model-count army that works best in 1500-1750 where people aren't quite spamming multiple S8+ shots in every FO slot (seriously, Dark Eldar in high points will kill 10+ Paladins a turn just from shooting, Dark Lance spam means exactly that). When your opponent is finding that he needs to upgrade to make points, he's got 3 Las Predators (yes, including the turret), and 6-9 Land Speeder Typhoons on the board which wont be pretty when the board is painted red with insta-gibbed Paladins.

[Arcanoi]

Solid analysis. One major point and one minor.

Karamazov IS an independent character, and also has Relentless. He's also got Rad Grenades. Unfortunately, he can't embark on vehicles, which definitely hurts. This still doesn't make him great, but he's definitely a solid mid-tier character, better than you made him out to be, I think.

The minor point is that Crowe has a CCW that rends on 4+, not a power weapon that wounds on 4+. That was probably your intention, but the way you worded it was unclear.

[Cheesegear]

Karamazov IS an independent character [...] This still doesn't make him great, but he's definitely a solid mid-tier character, better than you made him out to be, I think.

Well, looks like I played him as not an Independent Character and it was bad. Being able to make him join a squad makes him reasonable. Fixed now.

The minor point is that Crowe has a CCW that rends on 4+, not a power weapon that wounds on 4+. That was probably your intention, but the way you worded it was unclear.

Not quite. Needs a bit of thinking. If you're Rending on a 4+, but, you're also wounding anyway on a 4+, S4 vs. T4, you've basically got a Power Weapon.

[EhDerangedMonk]

First Farseer I've seen in a while without Runes of Warding.

Oh god how did I miss that, I love scaring people out of psychic powers.

I prefer Shuriken Cannons over Scatter Lasers.

Bright Lances are way to expensive on a Wave Serpent. Go with Missile Launchers.

Okay, I can roll with that. Points efficiency and whatnot.

I also get sad when I see a 'move forwards' Dire Avenger squad without Defend and Shimmershield because when I play against it, I know it makes me so mad.

The best logic.

Yep. Though at 1500 you should definitely have 3-4 Troops.

I understand the logic behind this.

So I guess now we have most of the army built points-wise, I made the second squad like the first because I saw no reason for them to be the lone footsloggers.

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HQ
Farseer – Guide, Runes of Warding – 90

Elites
Fire Dragons x5 – Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, spirit stones - 190
Fire Dragons x5 – Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, spirit stones - 190
Fire Dragons x5 – Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, spirit stones - 190

Troops
Dire Avengers x10 – Wave Serpent, EML, spirit stones, Shimmershield and Power weapon, Exarch, Bladestorm, Defend -307
Dire Avengers x10 – Wave Serpent, EML, spirit stones, Shimmershield and Power weapon, Exarch, Bladestorm, Defend -307

Total: 1274

A couple things I'm considering to finish off the list are:

Guardian Jetbike Squadron x6 - 2x Shuriken Cannon, Warlock, Conceal, singing spear.
or
Guardians x10 - Shuriken Cannon, Warlock, embolden, singing spear, Wave Serpent, twin linked shuriken cannon, spirit stones

I fiddled around with rangers for a bit but the point costs were ugly. You seemed to be hinting at a need for more troops.

What do you think the list needs as a finish?

Thanks for the advice Cheesegear, it's nice to get a friendly reminder that army choices should prioritize function over aesthetics.

[Talkkno]

A minor point about Brotherhood banners, it does make combat squads alot less favorable thing to do, so it does kind of restrict you on that front I think.

[Renegade Paladin]

Point on Draigowing: It rocks your socks off in Dawn of War. The paladins start at midfield, being Troops, and use Grand Strategy to get a scout move. They then wreck face. I got tabled by this with a Librarian thrown in to give them rolling 3+ cover a few weeks ago.

[Wraith]

[Re: Brother-Captain Stern] Summary; Not awful.

At least he is an actual Grey Knight this time around. That counts for something, surely?

Titansword; Psyk-Out Grenades and S10. Yeah, Draigo rolls most psykers in the game without even needing to take a Psychic Test which can be negated.

Probably don't need to add, but the same qualities (s10 Force Weapon) have him laughing at just about every MC/Walker in the game. If he's not wounding Greater Daemons of Nurgle on 2+, he's insta-gibbing Wraithlord or ripping Dreadnoughts a few new ones. No mean feat, all considered.

Which makes Castellan even more redundant. There's no conceivable reason as to why you'd want to take both characters in the same army, but Draigo is just 'better' even before you consider his superior synergy with Purifiers.

Not quite. Needs a bit of thinking. If you're Rending on a 4+, but, you're also wounding anyway on a 4+, S4 vs. T4, you've basically got a Power Weapon.

I spotted this, too. On paper, Cheesegear is absolutely right and it shouldn't matter. In practice, it's something you shouldn't say out loud because it will probably get you pulled up by your opponent if only to clarify (particularly in Tournament conditions, when a particularly spiteful opponent might mark you down your sportsmanship for 'cheating on a technicality').

Point on Draigowing: It rocks your socks off in Dawn of War.

Depends heavily on who you're playing, I suspect. Yes, your 3 Draigowing units can run forward and smash up your opponents' 3 units quite easily.... But then they get a huge pile of reinforcements who can deploy wherever they want, ready to shoot, and you have no such luxury.

It can kind of work in Spearhead, too, if you're really lucky and your opponent has crowded the edge of their own Deployment zone. Wouldn't count on it, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

He had Draigo, a Librarian, ten paladins outfitted for musical wounds with an Apothecary, a strike squad with a psycannon, and two Dreadnoughts, one psyfleman and one MM/DCCW. I had one lascannon-toting blob, an autocannon heavy weapon squad, a Basilisk, a Leman Russ, an Executioner, a Devil Dog, two Chimeras of meltavets, and my usual plasma command squad. The Basilisk went in the corner to my right (rolling on first turn per Dawn of War) with the autocannon vets, the Russ went in the other corner (same deal), and the lascannons deployed in cover in the center rear. I kept the meltavets in reserve, while everything else rolled onto my board edge first turn.

The paladins and Librarian engaged the lascannon blob and he used Draigo by himself to take out the autocannons and Basilisk, deep striking him without support (which he evidently didn't need) over there with them. The Devil Dog bit it to the psyfleman dread he had walk on in the back. The paladins then worked their way to my left, chewing up my command squad, meltavets, and eventually the Russ, while Draigo worked his way to the center from the right, chasing down and killing the Russ Executioner, which was doing it's damnedest to break that abominable Shrouding on the paladins whenever they weren't in assault and the cover the strike squad was in when they were without enough success. I whittled him down to three paladins (the high point of the game was the Librarian killing himself with Perils x_x), but it wasn't enough. I actually forgot to bring on my platoon command squad the whole time, but they had absolutely zero wargear, and five more lasguns weren't going to turn the tide.

Anyway, tournament today. I should get going; I'll let you guys know how it goes later.

[Cheesegear]

[Draigo]'s insta-gibbing Wraithlord or ripping Dreadnoughts a few new ones. No mean feat, all considered.

Not quite. Dreadnoughts and Wraithlords are not Daemons or Psykers. Draigo is only S5. Unless it's a Librarian Dreadnought.

Which makes Castellan even more redundant. There's no conceivable reason as to why you'd want to take both characters in the same army, but Draigo is just 'better' even before you consider his superior synergy with Purifiers.

You mean take Paladins as per normal, then put Draigo in a unit of Purifiers (to keep Fearless), and then start making Purifiers Scoring from Grand Strategy? Well, in theory it works, but it's a lot of points.

[Wraith]

What do you think the list needs as a finish?

I think another Troops choice would be ideal, for a variety of reasons. The Jetbikes would be a nice choice - not only effective, but they would fit the theme of your army full of skimmers.

Failing that, between 10 Guardians with a Warlock (and I'd probably go with Conceal rather than Embolden, but I see why you're doing that) and 10 Rangers (or two squads of 5), I would err towards the Rangers. Your Dire Avengers are going to be rushing about, killing things a lot, and you could make use of someone who will be happy to sit on objectives in your own half of the table.

Pricey, yes, but out of all the Eldar Troops choices you might struggle to find one that is genuinely worth it's points, for good or evil.

Not quite. Dreadnoughts and Wraithlords are not Daemons or Psykers. Draigo is only S5. Unless it's a Librarian Dreadnought.

You mean take Paladins as per normal, then put Draigo in a unit of Purifiers (to keep Fearless), and then start making Purifiers Scoring from Grand Strategy? Well, in theory it works, but it's a lot of points.

I'd like to pretend that was what I was referring to, but no - I had entirely forgotten about that caveat.
Having said that, against vehicles you're not going to be using the Force Weapon so you could get some use out of Hammerhand - A5 on the charge at S6 is a distinct threat to most Transports and is at least a fighting chance against anything less than an Ironclad Dreadnought.

And no, I kind of mean dropping the Paladin altogether, spending those points on something more flexible (More Strike Squads, for example) and just use Draigo to turn a big unit of Purifiers into Even More Death Incarnate. Maybe not the greatest of ideas, but... I just don't care for Paladin at all. *shrug*

Anyways, now for a drastic change of topic....

A little while ago, I was banging on about Deathwing and the various unfortunately-named variations from different Codices. Cheesegear, as usual, gave us a succinct summary of what probably was and wasn't a good idea, which ended with me threatening to add a new alternative to the list.

First we had Deathwing, followed by Nipplewing (aka: the Golden Shower), Loganwing (aka: Logan's Heroes) and Draigowing (aka: Far too expensive to actually consider playing....).

Now I offer you: Templarwing (aka: Black Death From Above)

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Black Templars - 2000pts

Emperor's Champion
+ Accept Any Challenge

We all knew this was coming. Quite frankly, there aren't many things that you can do to make Assault Terminators even more fearsome - Preferred Enemy for everyone is probably it. And he can conviniently sprawl out across one of the many spare seats available in the Drop Pods, which is fun.

5x Initiates
+ Power Fist
+ Meltagun
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwind Missile Launcher

5x Initiates
+ Power Fist
+ Flamer
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwind Missile Launcher

These guys are basically a tax - Black Templars have no way of making Sword Brethren into Troop choices, so I have to take something to appease the almighty Force Organisation Chart.
Still, minimum-sized Assault Marines in a Drop Pod with Preferred Enemy and a Power Fist? If they could take Homing Beacons (Black Templars can't take them at all) they would be perfectly viable even in an ordinary list, but as taxes go, I'm pretty content with that.

10x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 6x Lightning Claw
+ 4x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 10x Furious Charge

10x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 6x Lightning Claw
+ 4x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 10x Furious Charge

6x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 4x Lightning Claw
+ 2x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 6x Furious Charge

Editorial Note: I've given them all Furious Charge because it seemed like a good way help the Lightning Claws to thin out the enemy before the Thunderhammers can step up to the plate. I could have given them Tank Hunters instead, for the same price, but.... meh. That's what the Predators are for, and I can always give the Initiates Meltaguns if it turns out I need them.

Anyways.... That is actually a respectable number of Terminators. An equivalent 2000pts army in Deathwing would get you Belial + 30x Terminators + 3x Vindicators, so getting 26 Sword Brethren with tanks, HQ and a couple of Tac-Squads in Black Templars is pretty good.

Predator
+ Lascannon Sponsons

Predator
+ Lascannon Sponsons

Predator
+ Lascannon Sponsons

Because "Why not?". Can't go wrong with Triple LasPreds and but you could always switch them out for Vindicators if you want to.

Total: 1994

Pros: Whole lotta Terminators, with enough room for maneuvering in some support units. And thats the point of this list, so, mission succeeded.
And as I said above, there aren't too many ways of making Assault Terminators more scary than they are already, but the BT Emperor's Champion is exactly the sort of thing that

Cons: Old-style Drop Pods, no Homing Beacons, no Storm Ravens and no Deathwing Assault/Heroic Intervention equivalent. You're no faster getting into melee than any other generic Marine army, and Deep Striking - which you're even more reliant on - is probably going to hurt even more so.

So, all in all..... Not the best army you can make with Black Templars, but in the -Wing genre?
I think we have a contender.

[Nameless Ghost]

While they're not Assault Terminators, dual tank-hunting Cyclones are pretty nasty. It'd probably compare favourably with the Deathwing equivalent of getting Cyclones in every squad while retaining a respectable number of Hammers/Shields.

[hamishspence]

Unique means Unique. They've removed the 0-1 stuff from the game. Now that they've renamed Assassins to 'Unique' they are now ruled as exactly that. You only get one. Even in Apocalypse. Just like you can only have one Lysander.

The Officio Assassinorum Execution Force Apocalypse formation is multiple assassins (of the same temple only).

So- if you pay the points premium (an extra 100 pts) it makes sense that since the formation exists, it overrides the "unique" rule in this case.

[Sheep Overlord]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the models thread, so I'll start by asking here:

My recently started Imperial Guard army is in the process of being assembled and painted, and soon I'm going to need to assemble some veterans. Holding meltaguns. I don't see any of those on the guardsman sprue, so I'd like to know either A) which sprue they do come with, or B) where I would get meltas as separate bits. The GW website has Space Marine meltas, I think, but I don't know if they'd work on regular guardsmen (at the very least I would expect the hands to be disproportionate).

No snags so far other than that one; I've got about 10 guardsmen assembled and painted and many, many more to go.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the models thread, so I'll start by asking here:

My recently started Imperial Guard army is in the process of being assembled and painted, and soon I'm going to need to assemble some veterans. Holding meltaguns. I don't see any of those on the guardsman sprue, so I'd like to know either A) which sprue they do come with, or B) where I would get meltas as separate bits. The GW website has Space Marine meltas, I think, but I don't know if they'd work on regular guardsmen (at the very least I would expect the hands to be disproportionate).

No snags so far other than that one; I've got about 10 guardsmen assembled and painted and many, many more to go.

Yes, loads more to go.

A single meltagun comes in the command squad sprue. Other than that, the best I can say is to get the pack of five metal meltaguns they sell, which fit Guardsmen just fine.

I have a D&D game starting in half an hour, so no time for recounting yesterday's tournament in detail just now, but in the short version, in three rounds I got roflstomped by Tau, convincingly defeated another Guard player, and narrowly lost a really close game against Dark Eldar. Also, I'm never playing an infantry-centric army again.

[Timberwolf]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the models thread, so I'll start by asking here:

My recently started Imperial Guard army is in the process of being assembled and painted, and soon I'm going to need to assemble some veterans. Holding meltaguns. I don't see any of those on the guardsman sprue, so I'd like to know either A) which sprue they do come with, or B) where I would get meltas as separate bits. The GW website has Space Marine meltas, I think, but I don't know if they'd work on regular guardsmen (at the very least I would expect the hands to be disproportionate).

The metal meltagun pack is probably the way to go. If you feel crazy and don't mind them standing out a bit or waiting for mail order, then there's the Forge World Elysian's meltagun squads. I just had this problem myself. I'm going Elysian ans that's the Guard list I'm using. T'local blackshirt wasn't able to give me many ideas beyond those and beyond hitting your mates for melta guardsmen, there's not much else that can be done.

[Penguinizer]

That's basically the reason I went for Renegade Guard using the IG codex when I built mine. It allowed me room to have meltaguns take the form of gifts or other mutated chaos-y looking things. I wasn't exactly keen on ordering the things from GW so I couldn't think of much else.

[Provengreil]

That's basically the reason I went for Renegade Guard using the IG codex when I built mine. It allowed me room to have meltaguns take the form of gifts or other mutated chaos-y looking things. I wasn't exactly keen on ordering the things from GW so I couldn't think of much else.

you sound like a friend I have who's made most of his army out of clay and random stuff from michael's(an arts and crafts store). some of the things he goes with are pretty cool, like a defiler made of a plastic crab, a reassembled cheap plastic abrams model, and some little chains.

[Cheesegear]

And no, I kind of mean dropping the Paladin altogether, spending those points on something more flexible (More Strike Squads, for example) and just use Draigo to turn a big unit of Purifiers into Even More Death Incarnate. Maybe not the greatest of ideas, but... I just don't care for Paladin at all. *shrug*

I'm thinking taking the one unit of 10 ('that unit'), and just have them sit on my home objective shooting four Psycannons a turn. Then playing the rest normally. Yeah, only one unit of Paladins in an army where they're all Scoring. It's just too expensive.

Now I offer you: Templarwing (aka: Black Death From Above)

Blackwing.

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Emperor's Champion
+ Accept Any Challenge

Losing a free Scout move nearly every game is more damaging to Assault Terminators than not having Preferred Enemy. I love the free Scout move.

5x Initiates
+ Drop Pod

5x Initiates
+ Drop Pod
[...]
I'm pretty content with that.

Two minimum-sized Troops in 2000 points? I'm not content with that.

10x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 6x Lightning Claw
+ 4x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 10x Furious Charge

10x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 6x Lightning Claw
+ 4x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 10x Furious Charge

6x Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad
+ 4x Lightning Claw
+ 2x Thunderhammer & Storm Shield
+ 6x Furious Charge

...Kind of bad. No other way to describe it. No need for more than seven per squad. And what're you using for anti-tank in 2000 Points? 3 Predators? That's it? Drop them all down to units of 7. And focus more on more Shields. More Shields = More Invulnerables = Less dead before you get to combat - which is slow because you're not Scouting.

You're also missing out on the Dual [/Tank Hunting] Cyclones. Which is one of the strengths of current Templars since their ranged killing power sucks. The other thing I notice you're not using is the cheap Typhoons, another strength of current Templars.

Anyways.... That is actually a respectable number of Terminators. An equivalent 2000pts army in Deathwing would get you Belial + 30x Terminators + 3x Vindicators, so getting 26 Sword Brethren with tanks, HQ and a couple of Tac-Squads in Black Templars is pretty good.

The difference is that Belial has 30 Scoring Terminators. The way you've written the list, I can't help thinking that the list couldn't be done better with Blood Angels. Yes. Blood Angels. With Terminators. I mean, yes, Terminators are Terminators and with the exception of Wolf Guard (stupid Wolves can't do anything right), all Terminators across all Codecies are pretty much the same, and if you do want to play Terminators, why not play Deathwing?

So, all in all..... Not the best army you can make with Black Templars, but in the -Wing genre?
I think we have a contender.

Hate to burst your bubble, but we don't. It's like you showed up at the wrong park for the picnic. Scoring Terminators will always be better than anything you can come up with where Terminators aren't Scoring.

Some people have even started thinking about super-units of Wolf Terminators. Logan is the same cost as Draigo. And Wolf Guard are - usually - cheaper than Paladins, so, people are trying to come up with a better Draigowing than Draigowing.

The Officio Assassinorum Execution Force Apocalypse formation is multiple assassins (of the same temple only).

I know of that and I was waiting for someone to mention it. I hazard to say that the new Codex invalidates that Formation. Yeah, Apocalypse is supposed to be 'fun' and you can do whatever you want...Well, sometimes. But, on the other hand, I know a GW down the road (not my usual GW) often has 8000 point tournaments, where it does matter what your list is.

[Wraith]

Scoring Terminators will always be better than anything you can come up with where Terminators aren't Scoring.

Well, yes, that goes without saying. I was sure I had remarked about BT's not being able to get Scoring Terminators and that it sucked, but that wasn't the point of this exercise. It was to see how Black Templar-Wing compares to Deathwing, and we have an answer: Very poorly.

Hmm, on reflection, I probably ought to have previously included the footnote about this army just being some way to see how BT's would look if, model for model, they tried to make a Deathwing list rather than making a GOOD Deathwing list. A 'contender' for 'a reasonable number of bodies' more than anything else

Losing a free Scout move nearly every game is more damaging to Assault Terminators than not having Preferred Enemy. I love the free Scout move.

I was thinking more along the lines of "Deep Striking everything". It's not sensible but it'd probably be fun, and so I wouldn't get much use out of Scouting. Also, I just really like Lightning Claws.

No need for more than seven per squad.

Huh, turns out that Black Templars don't Combat Squad. Your idea is starting to make much more sense all of a sudden

.....and if you do want to play Terminators, why not play Deathwing?

Purely for the challenge of it. Plus, I love the Sword Brethren models, so I'll take any excuse to buy some (not that this is an army I'll be picking up any time soon, of course).

So, fair enough. Let's try it your way, just for fun:

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As it stands, bang on 2000pts with enough useful, but not necessarily mandatory, stuff to drop if you want to tweak it.

Emperor's Champion
+ Abhor The Witch

There's yer Scout move, sir, on the (now altered) premise that I'm not to be Deep Striking the Terminators.
It seemed like a bit of an odd trade to me - taking the Terminators with a worse Invulnerable Save and then making them walk..... But on reflection I see the wisdom of potentially taking one or two casualties before being in Assault in Turn 2, rather than taking just as many casualties after potentially just being on the table in Turn 2....

5x Initiates
+ Flamer
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwing Missile Launcher

5x Initiates
+ Flamer
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwing Missile Launcher

5x Initiates
+ Meltagun
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwing Missile Launcher

5x Initiates
+ Meltagun
+ Drop Pod
+ Deathwing Missile Launcher

Four Troops choices in 2000pts. Twice as good Not bad Not as bad as it was previously. I've played, and won, with less.

If we still want more anti-tank stuff, dropping one of Deathwinds gives us enough to swap the Flamers for Meltaguns. Drop the other two of them and that's enough for Power Fists all 'round as well, which may or may not be a good idea depending on your metagame.
Conventional wisdom - which goes "Yes, you will inevitably be fighting other Space Marines" - might err you towards the latter if in doubt, but I stand by my Deathwind Launchers as regularly being worth their cost and then some.

7x Sword Brethren Terminators
+ 2x Cyclone Missile Launchers
+ 2x Chainfists
+ Tank Hunters

7x Sword Brethren Terminators
+ 2x Cyclone Missile Launchers
+ 2x Chainfists
+ Tank Hunters

7x Sword Brethren Terminators
+ 2x Cyclone Missile Launchers
+ 2x Chainfists
+ Tank Hunters

I toyed with the idea of giving some of them two Assault Cannons as well, since you might as well smoke 'em if you got 'em, but that was A) getting more and more expensive and B) probably a bit of a waste. If you can't kill something with two Cyclone launchers, or at least soften it up enough that half a dozen Power Fists will finish the job, then Assault Cannons probably won't be all that much help anyway.

On the other hand, if tailoring is your thing, you might downgrade the Initiates' to Flamers and find room for the Assault Cannons if you know you're facing Tyranid/Guard-swarms. In general, I wouldn't recommend it.

Land Speeder
+ Multimelta
+ Typhoon Missiles

Land Speeder
+ Multimelta
+ Typhoon Missiles

Land Speeder
+ Multimelta
+ Typhoon Missiles

There's your G**-D***** Typhoons! Happy now!? Are you!?
No, seriously, I've never used Land Speeders before as they've not yet found a niche that I haven't already accounted for with other stuff in Space Marines, but in Black Templars they're everything you need. Anti-Tank on one side, Anti-Infantry on the other, and fast enough to make use of both where you need it.

All in all, a much better effort. Still not Deathwing though, but as I said, we all knew that wasn't going to happen when we started out.

[Cheesegear]

It was to see how Black Templar-Wing compares to Deathwing, and we have an answer: Very poorly.

Only one post for the entirety of yesterday? Slow thread is slow. I miss the days of arguing about the Vindicare?

Ah well, while I'm at work, who wants to make a better Draigowing than Draigowing using Logan?

Huh, turns out that Black Templars don't Combat Squad. Your idea is starting to make much more sense all of a sudden

I try. Although if you really think about it, you don't need more than 5 per squad because all you want is the dual-Cyclones.

Nah, 7 is fine.

Purely for the challenge of it. Plus, I love the Sword Brethren models

Sword Brethren Terminators? Well, they look like Terminators. Just kidding, no they don't. They look awesome when you do them right. The Shields from Forgeworld are amazing. Unfortunately, in the current meta () Black Templars don't want to be using Shields because they're not dual Cyclones for cheap.

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Four Troops choices in 2000pts. Twice as good Not bad Not as bad as it was previously. I've played, and won, with less.

I think everyone has. But, the point is you can win easier if you have more Troops.

If you can't kill something with two Cyclone launchers, or at least soften it up enough that half a dozen Power Fists will finish the job, then Assault Cannons probably won't be all that much help anyway.

Yep.

On the other hand, if tailoring is your thing, you might downgrade the Initiates' to Flamers and find room for the Assault Cannons if you know you're facing Tyranid/Guard-swarms. In general, I wouldn't recommend it.

...What. Against Tyranid/Guard swarms I'd still take dual-Cyclones. 4 Frag Markers.

There's your G**-D***** Typhoons! Happy now!? Are you!?

...Maybe.

Anti-Infantry on the other, and fast enough to make use of both where you need it.

And yet you've still never used them, even though you can see how they work? I'd also potentially drop the Multi-Meltas. You're throwing 2, S8 (magic!) shots per turn from 30+" away. If you want Meltas, that's what the Drop Pods are for, right?

All in all, a much better effort. Still not Deathwing though, but as I said, we all knew that wasn't going to happen when we started out.

Indeed.

[Saintjebus]

So, I'm in a pairs tournament on Sat. Points is 1k points each. I'm running Deathwing, and my partner is running DE. His list is going to be melee focused. With that being in mind, what do you all think of this list?

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HQ
Belial
-TH/SS
Troops
Upgraded Deathwing Squad
-Apothecary w/ SS & TH
-Standard Bearer w/ SS & TH
-Sgt w/ TH & SS
-Chainfist x1
-LC x1
-Cyclone Missile Launcher
Deathwing Squad x2
-TH/SS x3 (including Sgt.)
-Chainfist x1
-LC x1
-Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tactical Squad (4 man + Sgt.)
-No upgrades

Total Points: 1000

Most of the scenarios have at least one "home" objective, so the Tactical squad is meant to just sit on that objective while the terminators take the fight to my opponent. Plus, I couldn't think of anything better to do with 90 points. The idea was that we would be forcing our opponents to focus on my terminators, leaving the DE witches to mess people up, or take down the squishy DE, leaving my terminators to make them sorry.

[Sheep Overlord]

I might as well ask this as well, as I'm not modelling any now but can certainly add some later: what is the comparative value of a vox network at different points levels / competition levels / army compositions? That is to say, are they better used in small games where you can easily afford to give everyone a vox, or do they only really pay off in larger ones where it is a specific, targeted investment? Are they competitive to the point where people would grumble if a vox network showed up in a casual list? Or is it the opposite - no voxes in tournaments if you plan to win? Somewhere in between?

I'm making the assumption that voxes are better in infantry-heavy armies where every squad can take (and use) a box, but I've been known to make incorrect assumptions before. It could be that they're better in hybrid lists where you only need to spend the points to network half your troops, for example. I don't really know.

So yeah, maybe something of a noob question but it's something I've been curious about. My next questions will probably be about what I'll be likely to face and how to deal with those as guard, just as a heads up. I see all these conversations about terminators and marine equivalents and whatnot, and I understand the gist of them due to familiarity with the 40k universe, but as the only army I know anything about is Imperial Guard (who have no terminators or space marines obviously), I don't actually know how strong they are, how expensive, etc. When I have a more cohesive way of phrasing my questions along those lines I'll post them.

Just to keep you busy, Cheesegear - this is all for you. :P

And RenegadePaladin and Timberwolf, of course, as they seem to be the resident IG experts.

EDIT: As an aside, I actually really like the Elysian models. Unfortunately they're kind of prohibitively expensive being Forgeworld and all, and I don't expect Games Workshop to release another line of IG any time soon. That jeep looking thing, though - I would definitely use those if they were part of the codex itself rather than one of the supplement books. But anyway, while I was looking through those models, the Elysian meltagun teams were teams of two on larger bases similar to heavy weapon squads. Is there something I'm missing? I thought meltaguns were special weapons, not heavies.

[Renegade Paladin]

Personally, I almost always play 1500 points and rarely have the points to spare for vox-casters. I run mechanized lists, so while my company commander can give orders out of his Chimera, he's usually not in range of infantry to give them to, and when I run a blob, it's for lascannons, so the platoon command squad is just a thirty point lascannon tax that can give FRFSRF if the blob is about to be neck-deep in something minded to assault it.

That said, in a purely theoryhammer sense, I can see the utility of it in an infantry list.

As for the Elysian meltagun squad, that's just one way of doing a special weapon squad, the six-man squad with three special weapons that's part of a platoon. Personally I wouldn't do that; changing the bases around in that way just screws with assault and deployment. Nothing makes you actually build them that way; the Elysian drop troop list doesn't have different rules from the Guard codex for special weapon squads.

[Timberwolf]

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HQ
Belial
-TH/SS
Troops
Upgraded Deathwing Squad
-Apothecary w/ SS & TH
-Standard Bearer w/ SS & TH
-Sgt w/ TH & SS
-Chainfist x1
-LC x1
-Cyclone Missile Launcher
Deathwing Squad x2
-TH/SS x3 (including Sgt.)
-Chainfist x1
-LC x1
-Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tactical Squad (4 man + Sgt.)
-No upgrades

Total Points: 1000

I can see what you're doing with the tac squad, but I'm pretty certain the Dark Eldar will have a squad that will be better at objective sitting and can help out with a Dark Lance rather than you having 90 points doing nothing for a game. I've not got my codex to hand (Dark Angels always goes missing...) but I'm also sure you've got extra points somewhere. I can fit in a couple of Dreadnoughts into my 1000 point Deathwing list and I run roughly the same upgrades that you're putting in (Deathwing command squad, chainfists, heavy weapons etc) I'm fully prepared to be bad at adding up, but I make it that you've got about 700 - 800 points there at an estimate.

[Tome]

Infantry lists love orders, and voxes are cheap. Mech lists don't care, but anyone planning to run lots of infantry will probably want one in most units that can take them.

Just remember that if you plan to use combined squads, only one unit needs a vox.

[Saintjebus]

I can see what you're doing with the tac squad, but I'm pretty certain the Dark Eldar will have a squad that will be better at objective sitting and can help out with a Dark Lance rather than you having 90 points doing nothing for a game. I've not got my codex to hand (Dark Angels always goes missing...) but I'm also sure you've got extra points somewhere. I can fit in a couple of Dreadnoughts into my 1000 point Deathwing list and I run roughly the same upgrades that you're putting in (Deathwing command squad, chainfists, heavy weapons etc) I'm fully prepared to be bad at adding up, but I make it that you've got about 700 - 800 points there at an estimate.

Yes, the DE will have objective camping units, but there is at least one scenario in which each player(not team) has a home objective. In which case I would need a camping unit of my own.

In regards to points, here's my breakdown

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Belial -130
HQ total: 130
Termie command squad -215
-Apothecary - 30
-Standard Bearer - 25
-Chainfist - 5
-Cyclone missile launcher - 20
Squad total: 295

Deathwing terminators - 215 x2
-chainfist - 5
-cyclone missile launcher - 20
Total squad cost: 240 (x2 = 480)

Tactical squad - 90 (base cost)
-melta bombs -5

(oops, forgot about the meltabombs the first time)

Perhaps you missed that I'm running a total of 3 deathwing squads, rather than 2?

[Cheesegear]

and my partner is running DE. His list is going to be melee focused.

How many Dark Lances? I don't particularly care what else is in his army, but a Dark Eldar army lives and dies by Dark Lances. Still, like I tell everyone who plays 2v2s, it doesn't matter what your partner is playing and you don't have to 'synergise'. As long as you each do your part you should do well.

With that being in mind, what do you all think of this list?

For starters, it's 1000 points of Deathwing. I already don't like it. 1250, 1500+, that's okay. But 1000 is a little small considering you're paying upwards of 200 points for five models.

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Belial -130

Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, correct?

Termie command squad -215
-Apothecary - 30
-Standard Bearer - 25
-Chainfist - 5
-Cyclone missile launcher - 20
Squad total: 295

Lose the standard. It doesn't do anything. All your models are Fearless to begin with and if you need more attacks with Thunder Hammers, you're in the wrong combat.

Deathwing terminators - 215 x2
-chainfist - 5
-cyclone missile launcher - 20
Total squad cost: 240 (x2 = 480)

Yep.

Tactical squad - 90

Waste of points.

Most of the scenarios have at least one "home" objective, so the Tactical squad is meant to just sit on that objective while the terminators take the fight to my opponent.

Bad and double bad. It's a 5-man squad with no weapons. Not even a Power Fist. Your opponent will kill it easily. Second, with no Teleport Homer, and the fact that you have Cyclones (you wont be Running in the Shooting phase I hope), your Terminators will be terribly slow and wont take the fight anywhere. For Deathwing this small (and that means no support units), you want your Deathwing to sit on home objectives with their Storm Shields throwing out Cyclone shots telling your opponent to 'bring it.' They're not going anywhere so your opponent will have to move them out, and with Hammernators that's not the easiest thing in the world.

Plus, I couldn't think of anything better to do with 90 points.]

Not trying hard enough.

Belial - 130 Points

Deathwing - 270 Points
Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Apothecary

Deathwing - 240 Points
Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher

Deathwing - 240 Points
Chainfist, Cyclone Missile Launcher

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 120 Points

Total: 1000 Points

The idea was that we would be forcing our opponents to focus on my terminators

Well then don't put easily killed squads on your backline. Put your Terminators in their face.

Scout => Drop two units down on the Bikes (Belial stays in Reserve because he's a tax and counts as the third unit Deep Striking), and put the third Terminators on your home objective.

Now your opponent either shoots the Terminators on his doorstep (No Scatter) or he shoots the Terminators on the objective. No matter what he shoots at he's not shooting the other. Success.

Are they competitive to the point where people would grumble if a vox network showed up in a casual list? Or is it the opposite - no voxes in tournaments if you plan to win? Somewhere in between?

Voxes are amazing. Always take. Only on Infantry Squads - the unit, not the type. Veterans don't particularly need Orders, and so shouldn't be receiving them because they should be going to other units. Due to Combine Squads, I usually only take one Vox for every two or three squads. If I'm strapped for points and I need to bundle my Infantry up into 5 units for one slot (say, I don't have the points for more Command Squads), then one Vox for a unit of 30, and another for a unit of 20.

If I'm spamming Orders like a bastard, then I've probably got 8-10 Infantry Squads spread out over 4-5 slots. And I'm taking one Vox per Platoon. Or two, because the Command Squads have one.

Your opponent shouldn't worry about a 'Vox Network' in a casual game, what they should be grumbling about is that you have 100+ models on the board and 10 [Lascannons/Autocannons] in 1000 points.

Especially on Company Command Squads and/or Creed. When you're issuing multiple Orders, if you roll a double-6, not only did you fail, but you can't make any more Orders. F* that. Re-roll, pass, and then start issuing more Orders like a boss. Literally. Like a boss.

Lessee. Spamming Orders. Two Company Commands, 5 Platoon Commands and five Platoon Voxes. So...45 Points. How is that not competitive? What? You want another Infantry Squad with no upgrades? Well, too bad 'cause you can't even get that.

Voxes are the most amazing thing in the Codex. Without them you can be crippled. Orders break the Imperial Guard Codex. Voxes make Orders better. So...Uh. Don't take Voxes?

If you don't plan on taking Infantry Platoons, because you don't have the cash to make it worthwhile and Veteran Spam is more to your tune, then you wont need Voxes.

When I have a more cohesive way of phrasing my questions along those lines I'll post them.

No worries.

Ah well, while I'm at work, who wants to make a better Draigowing than Draigowing using Logan?

So, no-one took up my challenge? Ah well. Lucky I thought about it at work. Everyone knows the suckiest thing about the WG Terminator (and Chaos Terminator) box is that they don't actually have the Power Weapons that they're supposed to be based with. Fret not. They Grey Knight box is here and has more Power Weapons than you can shake a stick at and that's got me thinking that I can actually do this now.

Anyway, Wolf Guard Terminators;

Wolf Guard Terminators (x10) - 440 Points
x3 Power Weapon and Storm Shield
x3 Wolf Claw [Frost Blade?] and Storm Bolter
x2 Power Fist and Storm Bolter
x2 Cyclone Missile Launchers [Power Weapon and Storm Bolter]

A unit of 10 Paladins is 690 Points. So, while Paladins do have double the wounds, it's kind of iffy since it's hard to work out how Instant Death spam is going to affect Paladins (heads up, elsewhere on the internet they are trying to figure out how many Missiles you can cram into one list just to specifically wreck Blood Angel and Draigo lists).

So, while Paladins have 20 Wounds (give or take for Instant Death), Wolf Guard will end up having ~50-60% more models not to mention access to Storm Shields which gives Invulnerables vs. Shooting and a better Invulnerable in combat. So, Wolf Guard have 50-60% more models (over seperate units = more targets = good?). However, a big unit of 10 Paladins is going to have a Banner, which gives 50% more attacks (roughly).

So, after you've got 20 Wolf Guard Terminators (since that's a multiple of 5 you can probably put them in different units and keep the Cyclones since Wolves don't Combat Squad), plus Logan = 1155 (lol 20 kitted Terminators and Logan in 1250, new army idea). Then you start rolling into Space Wolf support, Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, bulls* Rune Priests or Njal. Start rolling out into Logan's Heroes or more Wolf Guard and Drop Pods, etc.

Draigo rocks around with 15 Paladins and remember, the second five don't actually do a lot, and Draigo, as we know is a whopping 1280. What now? 200+ point units of Purifiers? You don't have a squad of Strike Knights yet for Warp Quake so you'll need that, if you want to maintain the 1750 or 1850 bracket there's not a whole lot you can do. You really need to bust into 2000 points, but then Space Wolves can do that too;
30 Wolf Guard, Logan and 15 Long Fangs with Missiles. 15 Missiles into Paladins anything not AV14 is not going to be pretty. Actually, make it 21 because of the Wolf Guard. Did you manage to squeeze in a Land Speeder Typhoon? lol.

I guess the only thing that Grey Knights have over Space Wolves is the totally not fair Halberds.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter aside from me?

[Wraith]

...What. Against Tyranid/Guard swarms I'd still take dual-Cyclones. 4 Frag Markers.

Depends on how much of a seamstress* you want to be, I guess. Cyclones are very very good, no doubt, but sometimes Rending cannons are just funny.

* Yeah, I just made that up. What of it? =P

And yet you've still never used them, even though you can see how they work?

I tend to spam Melta-Sternguard and Las/Plas Razorbacks instead. As good as I can now see Typhoons being, if there's anything left alive to be killed by them by the time they're in position in Turn 2, something has gone horribly wrong!

Maybe in my next life I'll give them a look, but for the time being I like using a variety of tanks and filling them with more warm bodies. Can't go wrong with more bodies.

Fair call on the Multimeltas, though - they might be useful in certain scenarios, but they're conviniently the same cost as a Power Fist for each of the Initiate Squads, which I often find invaluable.

[Provengreil]

How many Dark Lances? I don't particularly care what else is in his army, but a Dark Eldar army lives and dies by Dark Lances. Still, like I tell everyone who plays 2v2s, it doesn't matter what your partner is playing and you don't have to 'synergise'. As long as you each do your part you should do well.

You're right about the dark eldar, but I'd actually disagree with your analysis of 2v2. I've won 2 separate 2v2 tournaments, one of which was last saturday, and We won by synergizing while most of our opponents really didn't. our hardest matches, however, had opponents who had planned their lists and worked together.

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for instance, in the first tourney, my partner bottomed out the troops bit of a tau list with as few units as possible, then just packed broadsides. lots and lots of broadsides, and a few crisis suits. I used a techmarine(actually a thunderfire) to give them even better cover, hammernators and tactical marines as bubble wrap, and a librarian to help deal with any pesky invulnerable saves. nothing could get near us, because the tau had decent close combat protection. that list fought off blood angels paired with nids, which was probably the most awesome match i've ever played.

the second tournament was my kantor list paired with my partner's grey knights. I brought lascannons, scouts with rockets, hunter killer missiles, and combi-plasmas. he brought bullets. lots and lots of bullets, with as many psycannons as possible (10, i think, at 1000 points per list.) again, our opponents really hadn't done much synergizing, and we pounded most of them, except dark eldar matched with the guard.