Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

Here's a weird question;

Daemons aligned to the same God gain power and/or status by eating each other (and mortal souls, but other Daemons are usually more readily available). A Lord of Change is just a Horror that's managed to eat all his friends (several hundred, that is). Skulltaker is becoming a Bloodthirster, etc.

Do Daemons gain power from Daemons who aren't of their patron? Or would for example, a Tzeentchian Daemon actually suffer negative effects from devouring a Nurglite Daemon?

And if so, are Daemons aware of this? Can a Daemon be tricked, or forced (i.e; using a bound item to kill another Daemon) into devouring another Daemon and then absorbing his antithesis (Khorne/Slaanesh, Tzeentch/Nurgle) and then getting cancelled out?

[Brother Oni]

Space Marines are immune to implantation from a Genestealer. They have at least two organs that would recognise the 'plant as poison/foreign and they would get rid of it immediately.

I can possibly see the Oolitic Kidney stopping the spread of the infection (assume the implant distributes itself through the bloodstream), but it wouldn't get rid of the actual implant.

I'm not sure what the other organ would be - I can't see anything that boosts a SM's immune system, which would attack foreign tissue like the implant.

Do Daemons gain power from Daemons who aren't of their patron? Or would for example, a Tzeentchian Daemon actually suffer negative effects from devouring a Nurglite Daemon?

I would think rather than their gaining power, it's more like the other side getting weaker, thus their faction becomes more powerful in comparison.
That's separate from their patron from rewarding them with power for defeating a hated enemy though.

[LeSwordfish]

Something that's come up in our PbP game: Do untouchable's powers "switch off" when they're knocked unconcious?

Frauka is knocked unconcious a few times, but both times his limiter's on. I'm sure Jurgen gets knocked out a lot, but i can't remember if ever in combat with a psyker, and my copy of Hero Of The Imperium is on the other side of the country right now so I can't check.

[bluntpencil]

Something that's come up in our PbP game: Do untouchable's powers "switch off" when they're knocked unconcious?

Frauka is knocked unconcious a few times, but both times his limiter's on. I'm sure Jurgen gets knocked out a lot, but i can't remember if ever in combat with a psyker, and my copy of Hero Of The Imperium is on the other side of the country right now so I can't check.

I would say no... it's a lack of soul that does it. Likewise, an unconscious psyker is still a psyker. Okay, he's not shooting lightning, but he's still a gateway to the Warp.

[LeSwordfish]

That was my thought, but i'm so convinced by the half-memory i have of jurgen doing it as to be tempted to buy a kindle copy of the Ciaphas Cain books just to check.

[Cheesegear]

That was my thought, but i'm so convinced by the half-memory i have of jurgen doing it as to be tempted to buy a kindle copy of the Ciaphas Cain books just to check.

Bequin loses her Blankness when she goes unconscious. But, as mentioned a few times in this thread, Abnett makes stuff up which is kind of loose and inexact, then somebody else usually takes the idea and makes rules and makes it more exact.

You can cite Bequin, but, as the original, the Pariah gene has come a long way since her.

[GolemsVoice]

Maybe it depends on the strength of the untouchable? The stronger they are, the likelier it is that the field will stay on?

[mistformsquirrl]

Hey all <^_^> I finally finished the fluff for my Guard regiment, and I was wondering if anyone felt like giving it a looksie? I'll post it here in a spoiler - feel free to offer critique, this is just a first draft. (Warning - it's longish, and patterned after a Lexicanum article.)

Spoiler

Show

Kione Regimental Combat Teams

Homeworld - Kione:

Kione is small world on the fringes of the Imperium. Kione is locked in a perpetual Ice Age, and the entire planet is blanketed in ice, snow, and tundra.

While certainly not hospitable to humans without proper equipment, Kione is warmer than most ice planets - with it's equatorial regions thawing out entirely during their summer cycles; and even the bitterly cold polar regions are not so terrible compared to other ice worlds.

This has lead to Kione being home to a wide variety of different species, plant and animal alike, that are well adapted to the cold weather.

Ultimately, Kione would have been little more than a curiousity, an out of the way backwater who's only real export of note was cold-weather soldiers, were it not for two critical discoveries:

The first is that beneath the mile-thick glaciers that encase much of the planet lies an abundance of promethium. This alone has made Kione a valuable world in it's subsector, since it essentially provides fuel to all Imperium forces in the vicinity.

The second is the discovery of an ancient Dark Age of Technology manufactorum - and within, a handful of STCs. It is unknown how, or why the facility came to be there - and admittedly most of the STCs are of a decidedly mundane* nature... however one proved interesting.

The STC was for a powerful battle tank perfectly adapted to Kione's difficult environment. This machine, soon dubbed the Arctodus icecrawler, was already set up to be produced by the ancient manufactorum, and so within only two decades the Kione Guard regiments were augmented with new, highly reliable cold-adapted tanks in place of their venerable Leman Russes.

While no better than the Leman Russ in combat, the Arctodus' performance in snowy and icey terrain makes it incredibly useful on any iceworld, while surprisingly sacrificing little performance when forced to fight in conditions quite the opposite to what it was designed for. That said, whenever possible the Kione regiments are dispatched to polar regions and iceworlds where they can make the best use of their equipment and training.


History -

Kione sits near the edge of the Imperium's border with the Tau Empire. While it is far enough from the border to have not often been subjected to direct attack from the Tau, the Imperial Guard regiments of Kione are almost constantly responding to threats across their sector.

The Kione regiments have thus developed a 'fire brigade' mentality - whenever the Imeprium calls, they answer, doing their best to end the situation with as much speed and efficiency as is possible.

Recruitment and Training -

Recruitment on Kione is universal. While not a fortress world, the discovery of essential resources on Kione has made keeping the world well protected a high priority. Everyone serves - even those who work in the manufactorums hold Planetary Defense Force ranks. All regiments are completely integrated, with men and women serving side-by-side in the same roles.

Likewise, the system is entirely meritocratic - there is no such thing as a 'noble' on Kione - instead, one is given rank according to accomplishments.

When one is first inducted into the military at the age of 10, one is given the rank of Cadet - this rank will only increase as the abilities of the individual increase. Most who work in the manufactorums and promethium refinement industries will never rise above Cadet, or perhaps Private if they do something noteworthy or become an administrator of some kind.

To become an officer one must first make the rank of Sergeant, then apply for Officer Training School, which will give the already-experienced sergeant an education in 'big picture' strategy and refine his or her already extensive knowledge of battlefield tactics.

There is no stigma for failing to rise in rank however - faithful and competent service, even if not especially noteworthy, is respected; and those who rise in rank exceptionally quickly can be viewed with suspicion, as ambition is commonly held with a bit of suspicion by the average Kionite.

Training itself consists of three phases -

Survival - The cadet is put through an extensive class on how to survive on an iceworld without significant technological assistance. During this phase, individuals will be dumped in the wilderness with a knife, the clothes on their back, and nothing else. This happens entirely at random after a certain point in course studies, so the individual in question has no idea when or where they'll be dropped in the wilds.

Most do not have much trouble at this stage however, as living their entire lives on a world like Kione means most already have good basic survival skills. There are casualties, but they tend to be rare.

Teamwork and Discipline - The most essential phase, once a cadet has completed the survival phase they'll be assigned to a squad and begin combat training. Absolutely everything in this stage centers around the squad, and it's place in the overall military structure. As time goes on, more emphasis is placed on marksmanship and other similar tasks, but foremost is always teamwork and discipline.

Integration - The squad is now assigned to a platoon, and is expected to integrate with that platoon. Later, the platoon will be assigned to a company, and then later still the company to a brigade, which finally will be assigned to a regiment. The idea is to instill in the individual soldier both the feeling of being a relatively small part of a very large organization... but also the essentialness of that small part being played well.

Battle Doctrine -

Kione regiments all follow the same basic battle doctrine, called "Deep Battle" - the basic concept being to strike with overwhelming force at a concentrated point, push past the enemy, and capture their rear supply and support areas, thus forcing them to surrender or retreat.

This philosophy of quick, decisive action is born largely from the Kione regiments use as subsector "fire brigades" - they almost never have to defend their own world, so instead they typically lead attacks or counter-attacks and thus are in an excellent position to attempt to deliver such a decisive blow.

It is for this reason that the Kione regiments are so obsessed with teamwork and discipline. In order for Deep Battle to function, all arms must cooperate in perfect unison - tanks leading the push, infantry supporting the tanks, airpower intercepting threats neither infantry nor tanks are suitable to dealing with. There must be absolute harmony between these disparate elements in order for Deep Battle to function properly.

Thus all Kione regiments include integral tank support and air power, despite the fact that most Imperial Guard commanders would classify them as 'infantry' regiments due to their large concentration of conventional infantry.

Kione forces tend to move quickly, despite not being all mechanized, and so they tend not to operate many non-vehicular heavy weapons, instead preferring to press the attack at every opportunity, with the belief being that an overwhelming attack will ultimately cost less casualties and be more likely to end in victory than a costly prolonged battle of attrition.

Equipment -

Due to Kione's cold environment, and their regular employment in polar regions and other iceworlds, the Kione regiments are generally equipped with heavy and warm greatcoats with integral flak armor. They are also issued a helmet and snow goggles (to prevent snow blindness).

Most commonly, infantry are equipped with autoguns and grenade launchers to enable fast moving forward advances. Meltaguns and flamers are also issued from time to time, usually to specialist squads or veterans.

Communications are of course vital for this kind of organized warfare, so voxcasters are distributed to every squad, enabling orders to be recieved and understood more easily in the heat of battle.

The Arctodus icecrawler is the main battle tank of the Kione regiments, and these typically lead the regiment in open country. Above, Vendetta gunships prowl the skies in search of enemy aircraft and tanks, as well as sometimes ferrying elite veteran squads to key points on the battlefield.

Heavy artillery is almost unheard of in the Kione regiments.


*While all machines are to be venerated, even the Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't consider the Kione-pattern Toaster Oven to be an essential strategic resource.

[GolemsVoice]

Sounds fun. It's not as GRIMDARK as for example the Death Korps of Krieg, but still heavily militarized, as befitting the 41 millenium. I like it!

[Wraith]

Sounds great. The only thing I would ask is; why is it called the Arctodus Icecrawler and not, after the world upon which is became dominant, the Kione Icecrawler?

It's a minor point, but I like to know these things.

[thereaper]

Every time I read the word "Kione", I saw "Khorne" and had to correct myself.

[mistformsquirrl]

Sounds great. The only thing I would ask is; why is it called the Arctodus Icecrawler and not, after the world upon which is became dominant, the Kione Icecrawler?

It's a minor point, but I like to know these things.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that!

I was trying to keep up with the Imperial naming convention of vehicles being named after mythical or extinct creatures, so I went with the arctodus. I felt "arctodus" sounded more interesting and intimidating than "short-faced bear" or some other obviously-bear-named-creature. I originally wanted to name it after the polar bear, but neither "polar bear" nor "ursus maritimus" sounds particularly tank-y to me... so I went with something bigger, older and better sounding.

I originally considered naming it after a famous Imperial commander... but I noticed most of those had already been done <'x'>

----

@thereaper - lol I hear ya - Originally the planet was named Khione, after Chione. Needless to say I altered the spelling to try to get away from "Khorne" >_< slightly sad it didn't work!

[thereaper]

Well, if you wanted to reference Chione, you could have just done so.

[mistformsquirrl]

Indeed <_< but the funny bit is that when I first learned of her, the name was spelled Khione - that's romanization for ya lol

[t209]

I wonder what would happen if Games Workshop introduced Ultramar Auxilia (i.e- The imperial guard from Worlds of Mary Sue Smurfs)?
P.S- So do you think Roboute Guilliman single handedly reduced the effectiveness of Space Marines, or it was 4 chan's hatred against him?

[The Glyphstone]

I wonder what would happen if Games Workshop introduced Ultramar Auxilia (i.e- The imperial guard from Worlds of Mary Sue Smurfs)?
P.S- So do you think Roboute Guilliman single handedly reduced the effectiveness of Space Marines, or the article has unfair bias against him.

Pssst...1d4chan is/can be extremely NSFW, links to it are usually a bad idea (flagged or otherwise).

But 1d4chan is always biased, that's part of its charm.

[Squark]

1d4Chan is not the most reliable source for fluff. Particularly about stuff the folks on /tg/ are raging about at the moment.

On the Codex Astartes itself, given the book is supposed to be positively enormous, my best guess as to what it looks like is something like this.

Part 1: This is basic tactical principles. Think the Art of War, but written for Super Soldiers. At the end of the day, I highly doubt anyone had a problem with what was actually written here, if only because all the primarchs where tactically brilliant, and a lot of this was just second nature to them anyway.
Part 2: Anatomy of a Space Marine Chapter; This section, wherever it actually ended up, would detail the organization for a space marine chapter. It also probably contains philosophical discussion of what it actually means to be a space marine. This is where a significant portion of the controversy came from- Many of the Primarchs didn't like the idea of their legions being split up, and resented Guilliman telling them how to fight. But I suspect in the long run this has less effect than they feared; The White Scars have very few devastator squads, the Blood Angels have a surplus of Assault Marines, etc. Keep in mind, though, that Guilliman did not forbid the primarchs to write their own supplements to this- The Imperial Fists have their own self-contained appendix written by Rogal Dorn, for instance, and this is likely where the other first and second founding chapters got their own doctorines. And at the end of the day, Sigsimund and Leman Russ were both allowed to ditch the codex's structure- The key element was breaking up the legions so one Chapter going rogue wouldn't trigger another Horus heresy.
Part 3: A ton of appendixes and case studies about the minutae of warfare like Siege Warfare, Guerilla warfare, counter-insurgency tactics, etc. Probably makes up the bulk of the codex. Specific Anti-Xenos and Anti-chaos tactics are also likely present.

[shadow_archmagi]

It's difficult to say, since the Codex is usually held up by the local Straw Vulcan in the fluff. Most times when we see the Codex in action, it's being used in a situation that's only vaguely appropriate, and there's some commander that's refusing to deviate from doctrine regardless of sanity or tactics.

[thereaper]

Well, I would argue that regardless of other factors, the Codex Astartes has failed in its intended purpose. Marneus Calgar, for all intents and purposes, controls nearly half of all space marines. If he went rogue and told his successor chapters to come with, most probably would.

[The Glyphstone]

It's difficult to say, since the Codex is usually held up by the local Straw Vulcan in the fluff. Most times when we see the Codex in action, it's being used in a situation that's only vaguely appropriate, and there's some commander that's refusing to deviate from doctrine regardless of sanity or tactics.

Which makes me sad. Ultramarines being the Marine Sues of the current edition is almost better than their previous existence as Armored Driz'zts, where the chapter was founded on the Codex, a supposedly perfect book of war, but every named/notable Ultrasmurf was distinguished by how he deviated from the Codex at every opportunity.

[Cheesegear]

But I suspect in the long run this has less effect than they feared; The White Scars have very few devastator squads, the Blood Angels have a surplus of Assault Marines, etc.

Well that's not true. White Scars have Devastators. And every Blood Angel is expected to keep his Jump Pack in working order so that at any time as needed, a Tactical Marine can swap to an Assault Squad. Blood Angels don't have more Assault Squads, they just keep everyone trained that way. Blood Angels are supposed to use Tactical Squads just as much as other Chapters, even if their Codex/playstyle doesn't force it on you.

The Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard don't follow the '10 Companies of 100 Marines' guideline because they can't. Not because they don't want to. They actually do their best to stick the Codex - they just fail at it.

[Zorg]

I've linked it before, but doctrine isn't a bad thing.

[Selrahc]

A Lord of Change is just a Horror that's managed to eat all his friends (several hundred, that is). Skulltaker is becoming a Bloodthirster, etc.

I'm not sure how true that really is. I think a lot of Lords of Change are created fully formed by Tzeentch. Probably the only Daemons that have the potential to "grow up" in that way start off special, as heralds.

Certainly if we look at Nurgle, he makes all the different daemons in a different way. Plaguebearers are formed in little cocoons from the souls of those who die from his favorite disease. Nurglings are the flakes and runoff from his scabrous flesh. Great Unclean Ones are brewed up specially. I don't think a dour serious Plaguebearer can make the leap to a joyful avuncular Great Unclean One. But I could see it happening with Khornate Daemons...

[Wraith]

I was trying to keep up with the Imperial naming convention of vehicles being named after mythical or extinct creatures, so I went with the arctodus. I felt "arctodus" sounded more interesting and intimidating than "short-faced bear" or some other obviously-bear-named-creature. I originally wanted to name it after the polar bear, but neither "polar bear" nor "ursus maritimus" sounds particularly tank-y to me... so I went with something bigger, older and better sounding.

Hey, I like that a lot. Really good link too, thank you for sharing

Which makes me sad. Ultramarines being the Marine Sues of the current edition is almost better than their previous existence as Armored Driz'zts, where the chapter was founded on the Codex, a supposedly perfect book of war, but every named/notable Ultrasmurf was distinguished by how he deviated from the Codex at every opportunity.

Honestly, that's how I still see most of them. Sergeant Telion *should* have moved on to more important roles centuries ago, but just didn't want to; Tigurius practices Divination (Councel of Nikea, anyone?) and might have engaged in a mind-link with Tyranids; Calgar allows Cassius to found a non-Codex platoon of 'Veterans'; Chronus abandons his wrecked tank and goes walkabout in the middle of a fight. Sicarius is okay, although his fluff does claim that he seems to favour lightning assaults wherever possible, and the Codex kinda tells people to be balanced in their approach.....

At least guys like Kantor didn't have a choice in the matter ("deviate from the codex or your Chapter goes extinct") and those like the Iron Hands or Salamanders never claimed to be following the letter of the Codex in the first place.

[Voidhawk]

I have always wondered: how exactly do By-The-Codex chapters (such as all those infinite Ultra-clones) manage to win any wars against cany opponents? All their operating proceedures, strategies, and most commonly used tactics are written down in a giant tome that's been passed around more often than Jurgens porn slate!

I mean, surely the Eldar have at least one copy of it floating around by now? Combine that with their Farseers, and I really don't know how the Ultramarines have ever won a war against them at all. More to the point, all renegade chapters start with it, and well versed in it's practical application to boot!

[mistformsquirrl]

I've always considered the Codex to be more like "The Art Of War" to be honest. It doesn't lay out every single detail of every single operation but rather gives sound (but broad) advice for planning operations, tactical maneuvers, strategy, etc...

Essentially, my view of the codex is that it doesn't tell you: "If you're on a ridge and the enemy is below you, this is what you should do..."

Rather it tells you "In the event you find yourself on a ridge, here are a number of various things you can do to use that piece of terrain to your maximum advantage against an enemy below you."

It then goes on to explain things like the reverse slope defense - or entrenching below the peak of the ridge so as not to be silhouetted against the sky, various traps one can lay at the foot of the ridge, or using a small force atop the ridge to fool the enemy into assaulting it, then hitting them from the flank with enfilading fire from the bulk of your force. Etc... etc...

I figure it makes the Ultramarines and their successors seem a LOT more logical - yes they have a combat doctrine... that doctrine happens to be broadly adaptable to a diverse array of situations and still requires some thought to employ properly.

I realize this contradicts the fluff in places, but frankly the Codex has always annoyed me a bit too. Combat doctrine is important, but it has to have some flexibility in it's employment or you're just going to get yourself killed the instant someone figures out what you're doing.

[The_Final_Stand]

Presumably, it's fairly general. Keep your commander in the thick of battle, where he is inordinately skilled, provides heart to your brothers, and can lay waste to your foe while surrounded by a horde of meatshields the finest bodyguards in the Chapter. Wear a helmet, no matter how uncool it makes you look. The Eldar are tricky, and one should trust them even less than any other Xeno, particularly when it comes to conventions in warfare. The Orks are brutal and straightforward, but beware, for this makes the subtle ones all the more devastating.

The Necrons weren't even active when the book was written, and it is presumably still being used against them.

[Borgh]

I was trying to keep up with the Imperial naming convention of vehicles being named after mythical or extinct creatures, so I went with the arctodus. I felt "arctodus" sounded more interesting and intimidating than "short-faced bear" or some other obviously-bear-named-creature. I originally wanted to name it after the polar bear, but neither "polar bear" nor "ursus maritimus" sounds particularly tank-y to me... so I went with something bigger, older and better sounding.

Fun fact: the name Arctodus comes from the greek Arctos (bear) wich is also the name-giver for the Arctic region (the land of the Bear) named after the Ursa Major constaltion.

So you both managed to name it after a extinct bear and the Arctic, wich happens to be rather icy.

[mistformsquirrl]

Hah, that's perfect >_< Even better!

[t209]

Well that's not true. White Scars have Devastators. And every Blood Angel is expected to keep his Jump Pack in working order so that at any time as needed, a Tactical Marine can swap to an Assault Squad. Blood Angels don't have more Assault Squads, they just keep everyone trained that way. Blood Angels are supposed to use Tactical Squads just as much as other Chapters, even if their Codex/playstyle doesn't force it on you.

The Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard don't follow the '10 Companies of 100 Marines' guideline because they can't. Not because they don't want to. They actually do their best to stick the Codex - they just fail at it.

There are actually good reasons for rejecting or not fully following Codex Astartes.
- Blood Angels Marine can go in Black Rage and Red Thirst, which turned them into a berserker, at any second in battlefield.
- Space Wolves cannot broken up into successor chapters because they have Wulfen curse, look at what happened to Wolf Brothers Chapter.