Worst Prerequisites

[Captain Six]

Endurance is a decent feat if you've got a DM who actually uses natural hazards. Although in campaigns not perpetually stuck at low levels I imagine it gets less useful over time.

Iron Will is an odd prerequisite feat because of how many different classes it allows you to qualify for. It would almost justify it as a decent feat even if it didn't do anything, so throw on +10% resistance to save-or-lose and it not actually that bad.

[Hazzardevil]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.

[Rubik]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.

Could potentially work with the right race. A LG succubus? She counts as L, G, C, and E for the purposes of...well...everything.

[Analytica]

Concerning Magelord, IIRC the designer didn't put the Evasion requirement in, it was added in editing. When asked, his suggestion was dropping requirements to 4th-level spells as a fix.

Also... that Sensate PRC from Planar Handbook with scaling prerequisites...

[deuxhero]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.

Hellbred I think also works for this, not sure.

[Rubik]

Hellbred I think also works for this, not sure.

I'm 99.5% sure that that only allows you to remain Good while casting Evil spells for good purposes.

[dextercorvia]

It doesn't give you caster levels because you can now semi-break the game in lolzy ways.

Select between:
free reach spell
Now your whole party can turn undead
Now your party barbarian can wildshape as well as you... while also retaining all his other class features such as rage
spell power your holy words into wiping out foes with more HD than you
spell power + spell-like-ability + quicken spell like ability (feat) to quicken higher level spells earlier

You may choose multiple with enough PrC levels.

Most of those are equivalent to an ability that Archmage trades one fifth level slot for, as opposed to his highest level spells.

[Wyntonian]

Dwarven Defender, a class entirely based around sitting around and being so bad even other melee types are sorry for you, requires Mobility and Dodge. So you can take levels in a class with a flagship ability based around not moving. Mobility. Not moving.


Also, ****ing dodge.

[Velaryon]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty harsh to get into, but once you get in it's a friggin' party. Full casting progression of both bard and druid, full BAB, two good saves, advancement of all the important bard class features, and 6 + Int skills per level? That's worth jumping through a lot of hoops to get.


I thought of a few odd prerequisites that I haven't seen mentioned yet. I go into some length about them so I'll spoiler them for space.

Mountain Tombstone Strike, the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver in Tome of Battle.

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It's weird because as listed it has no prerequisites, whereas the capstone maneuvers for all the other schools tend to require four or even five maneuvers known from that school. I generally assume that the lack of prerequisites in this case was a mistake, and rule that it requires 4 Stone Dragon maneuvers known, to make it more like the other classes, but as written the only thing you need is to be able to learn 9th level maneuvers.

Or how about the Reaping Mauler class from Complete Warrior?

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It's a grappling-based prestige class that requires you to actively be bad at grappling in order to gain access to the class. Not only does it give you Improved Grapple at first level in the class (which any character who cares about grappling would already have by level 3 at the latest), but it requires Clever Wrestling - a feat that A) is designed to avoid grappling, and B) you must be Small or Medium sized to have. The best way to become a good grappler is to gain bonuses from size, a route which disqualifies you from having Clever Wrestling. So if you make yourself larger than Medium through spells, psionic powers, magic items or whatever, you lose access to the feat and therefore to your class features.

What they should have done was make Improved Grapple a prerequisite and had the class grant Clever Wrestling at 1st level, which would turn the class from unbearably bad to merely flavorful but weak.

But why go all the way to the Complete series or Tome of Battle to find stupid prerequisites, when we don't even have to leave core to find them?

Take Shot on the Run.

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It's pretty clear that the designers were lazy and didn't think about this one. Their thought process was apparently "it's basically Spring Attack for ranged fighters, right? So just give it the same prereqs, but add Point Blank Shot since all the ranged feats need PBS as a requirement too.

What this results in is a similar but generally worse feat having harsher prerequisites, including a feat that pretty much does nothing at all (Dodge) and a feat specifically for melee (Mobility) that will never ever apply to a ranged attacker unless they go out of their way to run through someone's threatened square just to get some use out of the feat.

But if you ask me, nothing beats Whirlwind Attack for sheer amount of stupid prerequisites.

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Four feats, two ability score requirements, and a BAB requirement for a feat that requires you to put yourself in harm's way, get in the way of any AoE spells your magic-using allies might want to use, and will still only provide extremely situational benefits? That's pretty harsh. It's clear that the game designers thought this feat was a LOT more powerful than it actually is.

And do any of those prerequisites make sense for Whirlwind Attack? Not really. Whirlwind Attack is a full-round action, so you can't use Mobility or Spring Attack with it unless you gain an extra move action from somewhere, which isn't possible for melee types in core as far as I know. Technically you can use Dodge with it (although the two feats are not in any way related, and it's not going to help you against the other four guys you're putting yourself next to, most of whom are still going to be standing after you take your one attack each against them). And Combat Expertise? By the time you can actually qualify for Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise with its arbitrary cap of +5 isn't going to provide you with any meaningful amount of protection so it's not worth using.

This definitely gets my vote for worst feat prerequisites ever. It's been pointed out that there are a couple classes and maybe a feat that require you to die before you can take them. It seems to me that if you need to die, then trying to use Whirlwind Attack is a pretty effective way to go about it.

[Rizhail]

Hell, for if you wanna see tons of feat prereqs, open up any given Forgotten Realms book.

There's no denying this one. My personal favorite PrC (thematically mind you, mechanically it makes me die inside) is the Gnome Artificer from Magic of Faerun.

The pre-reqs...are rather harsh. Even for a 3rd edition Faerun book (though in this case, mostly it's the SKILL pre-reqs that are nasty)

It has, and I quote:

To qualify to become a gnome artificer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Gnome (or human from the Lantan region).
Skills: Alchemy 3 ranks, Craft (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, gemcutting, locksmithing, metalworking, trapmaking, or weaponmaking) 8 ranks, Craft (any other two from the previous list) 4 ranks, Disable Device 2 ranks, Knowledge (architecture) 4 ranks, Knowlwedge (engineering) 4 ranks, Profession (apothecary, engineer, or siege engineer) 3 ranks.
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus (any of the above Craft skills)
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells of the Illusion school.

Ow. The race requirement is mostly fluff (and easily dropped, if you want to port the class to another setting as a generic 'steampunk' type of class), but everything else HURTS.

That's a minimum of 32 skill points spent. No class at the time (again, before 3.5 and the Factotum) had all of those as class skills. You either went rogue/wizard or straight bard to qualify, and you burned way too many skills points. The real kicker? NONE OF THOSE SKILLS ARE USED BY THIS CLASS (save maybe Disable Device, if you already have trapfinding). All that crafting and knowledge and what not isn't used in any way, shape, or form by the class's device crafting abilities (which, like magic item crafting, involve no skill checks).

You are most likely a rogue or bard going into the class, so Lightning Reflexes isn't particularly useful. The gnome artificer only has one good save, and that's Reflex, so that feat is overkill. As stated above, the craft skills aren't used by the class, so skill focus (craft) is an even bigger waste than it would normally be.

And the spellcasting? DOES NOTHING HERE. Seriously, you could dropkick the Alchemy and Spellcasting requirements, and the class wouldn't change at all. It doesn't support spellcasting at all, and only has it as a requirement to provide a fluff reason for the capstone ability of the class (which grants some better item effects and makes supernatural devices rather than mundane devices). It's a caster level you will never upgrade in your ten levels of using this class.

So yeah, that's the most egregious pre-req in my mind. Granted, I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet, so maybe someone else found one even crazier.

[Suddo]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

Yeah but dual caster levels plus full BAB is just silly. And if you can cheat learning Druid (or just dip) Evasion can be faked.

I just ran a Tempest in a one shot. Man Spring-Attack is the most bull **** thing ever. The Pre-Reqs are split. Either A) Spring Attack or B) Full Attack for 4 attacks. I don't care if they want you to spring attack but make that its purpose and not make you multi-idea based. If it wasn't for that it would be an awesome PrC.

[Tengu_temp]

Eunuch Sorcerer. Take three guesses what's one of its prerequisites, and the first two don't count.

Harem Guard is even worse. It actually requires you to take a feat whose sole effect is "you are sterile".

[Hazzardevil]

Eunuch Sorcerer. Take three guesses what's one of its prerequesites, and the first two don't count.

Harem Guard is even worse. It actually requires you to take a feat whose sole effect is "you are sterile".

Guesses:
Great Fortitude
Lightning Relfexes
Iron Will

And where's Harem Guard from?

It seems like the Authors of prestige classes were told that each feat completely changed a character and that everyone was expected to only enter one prestige class that would make people respect you, but make you terrible in combat.

Apart from wizards, because everyone knows that wizards are underpowered.

[Tengu_temp]

And where's Harem Guard from?

Well, what book would consider such an effect important enough to be worth a feat? Ayup, we're talking about BoEF here.

[Analytica]

Guesses:
Great Fortitude
Lightning Relfexes
Iron Will

Close, but no cigar (any longer...).

[Tyndmyr]

Endurance is a decent feat if you've got a DM who actually uses natural hazards. Although in campaigns not perpetually stuck at low levels I imagine it gets less useful over time.

Iron Will is an odd prerequisite feat because of how many different classes it allows you to qualify for. It would almost justify it as a decent feat even if it didn't do anything, so throw on +10% resistance to save-or-lose and it not actually that bad.

Toss in that you can get it via Otoyugh Hole, and it's really not a bad option at all. I've certainly taken it many a time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could play a Glimmerskin Halfling, or be a Sorcerer and grab the Draconic Heritage (Gold) feat...but yeah, 10 ranks is way too much.

Is there any arcane-friendly way to get a bonus feat without pre-requisites? Or perhaps some Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness+psychic reformation shenaningans?

[Tyndmyr]

Is there any arcane-friendly way to get a bonus feat without pre-requisites? Or perhaps some Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness+psychic reformation shenaningans?

Well, there's always pledging yourself to an Elder Evil. Five free, delicious, juicy feats. Tends to have consequences though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Aren't they restricted from a specific list? And even if you use Dark Chaos Shuffle you need to be able to qualify for the feat AFAIK...

[Tyndmyr]

Aren't they restricted from a specific list? And even if you use Dark Chaos Shuffle you need to be able to qualify for the feat AFAIK...

Yes...a chaos shuffle is usually assumed to get the ones you really want. I don't recall any prereq language in the chaos shuffle...but it might be there, it's been a bit. That said, five feats can often take care of many prereqs.

[Mephit]

the feat "blessed of tem-et-nu" requires that you worship tem et nu as your patron (with you so far) and I think have a compatible alignment and that you defeat a hippopotamus in single combat.

This still wins hands-down. Whoever got that published in Sandstorm is either the real life equivalent of a Gnome Trickster, or takes his hippopotami very seriously.

[Curmudgeon]

In the "too high" category:

Entry Requirements

Race: Drow.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Feats: Cautious Attack (see page 47).
Domain: Trickery.
Special: Evasion.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6 or skirmish +2d6.

[Demon of Death]

Yes...a chaos shuffle is usually assumed to get the ones you really want. I don't recall any prereq language in the chaos shuffle...but it might be there, it's been a bit. That said, five feats can often take care of many prereqs.

There is indeed prerequisite language in it.

"If the subject possesses any Abyssal heritor feats,
one of them is immediately removed and replaced by
and other feat for which the subject qualifies except
an Abyssal heritor feat)."

Emphasis should be unneeded.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In the "too high" category:

Entry Requirements

Race: Drow.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Feats: Cautious Attack (see page 47).
Domain: Trickery.
Special: Evasion.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6 or skirmish +2d6.

....Dread Fang of Lolth?

[Curmudgeon]

....Dread Fang of Lolth?

Close. It's actually the Eye of Lolth.

[Hazzardevil]

Yathrinshee is worse.

Race: Drow
Gender: Female
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana and Religion) 7 ranks and Perform (Sing) 3 ranks
Feats: Lichloved and Spell Focus Necromancy
Spells: Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane hand.
Patron Deity: Kiaransalee

So you need 17 skill ranks, 2 feats, one that will be useless by the time you qualify for the class and another that will rarely come into play, a deity that no one has ever heard of and you have to stomach 2 LA on a theurge type class.

[Curmudgeon]

Yathrinshee is worse.
...
So you need 17 skill ranks, 2 feats, one that will be useless by the time you qualify for the class and another that will rarely come into play, a deity that no one has ever heard of and you have to stomach 2 LA on a theurge type class.

You sure about that? Cautious Attack has Dodge as a prerequisite, so that's also 2 feats (neither ever taken except as prerequisites) for Eye of Lolth. 28 skill ranks, the same race requirement, and also features you can't get without at least 2 other classes.

I'd say it's a wash. At least Yathrinshee has better spellcasting advancement, while Eye of Lolth's sole desirable characteristic is Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight that works like the Assassin's Supernatural HiPS.

[DonutBoy12321]

Ur-Priest requires Spell Focus: Evil, which in turn requires Evil alignment. Ur-Priests shouldn't be evil. Even if you steal divine energy from Tharizdun himself and kill Orcus with it, you are evil.

[navar100]

Eunuch

[sreservoir]

Ur-Priest requires Spell Focus: Evil, which in turn requires Evil alignment. Ur-Priests shouldn't be evil. Even if you steal divine energy from Tharizdun himself and kill Orcus with it, you are evil.

mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.