LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

[icastflare!]

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

I remember having one of these when I was younger. It fascinates me that I created such elaborate and thought-out scenarios involving my imaginary lover and I.

[Coidzor]

I don't get it

Would you have me paint the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel with white wash?

[Mina Kobold]

ETA: I think I've posted about this before, but what the heck. James Randi explains why he came out.

So he's a magician with a long white beard who happens to be homosexual and who is a very cool old guy? :3

I am now convinced that James Randi is Dumbledore. It is as certain as Cyber-Chromosomes.

On another note; would imaginary relationships be similar to creating stories for fiction that you know you most likely will not get around to?

[Asta Kask]

He has a million-dollar prize that he offers to anyone who can demonstrate supernatural powers. It's funny how all the famous psychics, mediums, spoon-benders, etc. avoid him. You'd think they be flocking to it. But no. Because they know that Randi knows the tricks, and they know they'd be exposed.

Anyway, that's for another thread.

[Asta Kask]

I don't get it

He thinks you're beautiful and sexy and a work of art just as you are.

[Lanaya]

So... you are attracted to women (and men?) but you can only find sex from the female perspective attractive? Am I getting it correctly?

Do you feel male?

Not really, but then, I don't feel female either.

Question: do you have this feeling in other situations as well? Or is it mostly a sexual thing?

I feel your pain here. I feel pretty much exactly the same, but I'm already trans. It does sound to me like it could be something like that, but I'm not an expert or anything.

Yeah... I dunno. I've always had a... curiosity, I guess, though that may not be strong enough a word, about what it would be like to be female, even when I was in my 'girls are gross' stage I liked the idea (though I would have died before I admitted it to anyone), and I certainly have no attachment to being male. I think that, on the whole, I would prefer to be female, but unless I could just magically wake up one day as a woman, I don't think I want it quite enough to spend all the time and money and go through the social awkwardness and surgery required.

Instead, I'll recommend you throw your question to someone like Dan Savage or The Kinsey Institute. If you only fantasize about being a woman for sex play, they'll be able to explain just how unexceptional a kink that is.

Hmm, okay. I'll give that a shot.

[Lix Lorn]

Pics or it didn't happen. No pics so it never happened.

Clearly it needs to happen! And there should be pics of it!

[turkishproverb]

The place where the sun doesn't shine?

Metaphorically.

[noparlpf]

On a semi-related note, I'm currently reading Caitlin Moran's semi-autobiographical feminist wordsplosion How To Be a Woman, which I got for Christmas. I don't agree with everything she says, but she talks about stuff in a funny and honest way, and, really, I'm just glad there's a current popular book that deals with women's issues in an accessible way. (She talks about periods, for one thing! )

Anyway, one problem I have with her is that she often says "Women are like this" or "Men are all..." or "One thing all women have in common is...". Now, unsurprisingly, the first people to be excluded are transwomen ("The one thing all women have - aside from a vagina obviously" or similar), but I get the impression that's just her not thinking about them (which isn't right, but is, in my view, less wrong than deliberately excluding them). The second group to be excluded are all women who don't live in first world countries, also unsurprisingly. But she also makes bizarre sweeping statements like saying all women have a collection of unworn or only-worn-once shoes hidden shamefully in their house. Or all women have elaborate fantasies about relationships and men never do. I know this isn't new or special, and in fact, this is a very tame example. I think things hit you worse when they're coming from someone who's on "your side".

Anyway, what I'm getting around to is; I'm starting to think the only thing "all women" share is the self-identification of "woman". And the same with men. You can't say "all women have vaginas" or "all women have XX chromosomes", or "all women are compassionate", or "all women have breasts", or "all women have a collection of shame-shoes", or "all women were little girls once" or "all women want a white wedding" or anything at all except "all women are women". Is that okay? I mean, is "woman" or "man" supposed to mean something more than that? (I think I'm having an entire-world identity crises here! )

Wait, (trigger warning)

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It might be true that "all women have a statistically higher chance of being a victim of sexual assault".

Also, none of that is to detract from How To Be a Woman being a really cool and funny book that does talk about loads of important stuff, and anyone who's interested in being or being with (in any sense of the phrase) a woman should give it a look!

Sounds neat. It's really sad, though, that so many feminist writers (and everyone else too) forget about other groups due to their own privilege. It's like they are all unaware of the existence of non-white, non-heterosexual, non-cissexual people. And I do agree that it's better to exclude by oversight than by intent.
As far as generalizations go, I'd just say that all X are X and all Y are Y. Some X may be Y and some Y may be X, but that doesn't mean it's okay to generalize that all X are Y. So all women are women by self-identification, and that's that. (Oh yeah, and they're all people too. And basic generalizations about organisms like "need sustenance" or whatever apply. But that's beside the point.)

He has a million-dollar prize that he offers to anyone who can demonstrate supernatural powers. It's funny how all the famous psychics, mediums, spoon-benders, etc. avoid him. You'd think they be flocking to it. But no. Because they know that Randi knows the tricks, and they know they'd be exposed.

Anyway, that's for another thread.

Does the ability to never, ever guess right when there's the choice of turning left or right count?

[Kindablue]

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

I have enough trouble with the normal kind, thank you very much.

Huh, interesting point.

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I think "women are statistically more likely to have vaginas" is different from "each woman is statistically more likely to suffer sexual assault". Those two are the same for a group of women (like the group All Women Ever), but different for an individual woman. My personal statistical chance of having a vagina is 1. I'm trying to think of something all women share. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's there. Each woman in a group of women either has a vagina or doesn't have a vagina. For an outsider, zir chance of pulling out someone with a vagina is high. But for an individual woman, there's no chance about it, it's either there or not there. Whereas the potential for a sexual assault today is always a chance, and women, of all kinds, share a higher chance than do men. It still doesn't work perfectly, because it's not true that every single woman in the world is at higher risk than every single person who is not a woman. So, I'm back to "all women are women", really!

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Hmm. I think I misunderstood then. I thought you meant "being a victim of sexual assault" as a condition (for lack of a better word) that any particular woman has right now ("having been a victim of sexual assault" is what I read, I think, which is binary), and not "being sexually assaulted at any moment."

[H Birchgrove]

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

Aha, so the relationship is imaginary, but not the partner?

On another note; would imaginary relationships be similar to creating stories for fiction that you know you most likely will not get around to?

My imaginary relationships and the latest of my unpublished stories go hand in hand...

[Coidzor]

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

That's just horrifying. I knew there was a reason those things skeeved me out.

[Lix Lorn]

Aha, so the relationship is imaginary, but not the partner?

Oh, if that's what they meant, then no, I don't do that, but I regularly want to. I normally get about twenty seconds in before going 'Bad Lixie! No happy fantasies! Stick with cold hard reality!'

Stupid conscience always gets in the way of a good time.

[Nix Nihila]

Wow. Lots of stuff I want to reply to.

Clothing:

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*Grumbles*

Why does everyone have a problem with black clothing, or at least associate it with the wearer being unhappy in some fashion? Usually I'm quite cheerful, and my standard outfit is completely black. Is that really that uncommon?

No. Gothic fashion is usually black, so that might be part of it (although there shouldn't really be a correlation between gothic fashion and unhappiness), but most black fashion is not gothic. I don't really find that most people associate wearing black with unhappiness (although it does on occasion happen, and it happened more when I was in high school), but as with many things, I'm sure that it's regional.

Re: Black clothing and angst
All the "emo" kids at my school are the happiest people I know. Heck, I'm wearing dark jeans and a black t-shirt right now, and I'm usually (aggressively) happy. If that was a joke, ok. If that was serious, I disagree.

I think emo applies to more than just fashion (it originated in music, didn't it?), and generally includes a sort of culture of loneliness, but I might be wrong.

I always thought that would be balanced out by women looking so very much better in men's clothing than men. And by the gender divide in clothing being inherently silly, but that's because I've always had a waifish figure.

I think I can sympathize though; if a kilt is any indication, skirts and dresses are way more comfortable and fun to wear than pants or other bifurcated garments.

Hmm.. I think the cut of men's clothing is generally rather unflattering on the typical female figure. I don't quite see what that has to do with my post though. I was mostly lamenting about the psychological discomfort that I associated with men's clothing (especially formal clothing).

Also this thread makes me feel unloved because I happen to like ties and male formal clothing in general. v.v

Uh... That's all I have to say for now. <.<

Nothing wrong with liking them. My hatred of them mostly comes from being forced into them, although I do think they're really rather uninteresting.

It's interesting (and troubling) because the skeptic movement is good at accepting homosexuals and bisexuals. But when a transgender person turns up, a small group of people begin talking about 'real' men and women and how that has to do with chromosomes, etc. It is a small group but as someone who wants the skeptics to be as accepting as possible it's really frustrating. Natalie who wrote that glossary left the boards soon afterwards because she was so frustrated...

Ugh... One of the reasons I am not involved in skeptic forums anymore. There's also the occasional person who talks about how nature "wants" men and women to be in sexual relationships, therefore homosexuality is wrong.

The only skeptics I really interact with much online nowadays are the LGBT and feminist skeptics. Usually they're more thoughtful about those sorts of things.

Anyway, what I'm getting around to is; I'm starting to think the only thing "all women" share is the self-identification of "woman". And the same with men. You can't say "all women have vaginas" or "all women have XX chromosomes", or "all women are compassionate", or "all women have breasts", or "all women have a collection of shame-shoes", or "all women were little girls once" or "all women want a white wedding" or anything at all except "all women are women". Is that okay? I mean, is "woman" or "man" supposed to mean something more than that? (I think I'm having an entire-world identity crises here! )

I agree with you, and this is nitpicking a bit, plus I think you already realize what I'm about to say, but it's really quite useless to say "All women identify as female" when you're defining a woman as someone who identifies as female.

Also, this is quite unrelated, but while I was skimming through the last few pages, I kept stopping where people were responding to Lix, because I thought I saw my name. It was mildly confusing (and disappointing, here I thought I had suddenly become super popular! ).

[bluewind95]

Hmmm, have you considered maybe checking out binding (if you haven't yet)?

Yeah. It's just... I'm not sure my family would be very accepting of this. It's not that they're homophobes or anything, but... they don't even really accept my asexuality. They just keep saying I haven't met Mr. Right yet. It doesn't work that way, but...

... Anyways, I've been poking around the whole subject of me not feeling very feminine and they seem to think this is a shortcoming of mine. I've also told them I hate my curves and they tell me I'm just being silly. So if I started binding... I don't know how they'd take it. And I'm not sure I really want to deal with that. If I were naturally flat, as I'd LOVE to be... it'd be different.

Androgyny... oh, how I wish I had thee.

[noparlpf]

Just now I was reading "Rain", and I think I've been hanging out with my webcomic-reading friend too much lately because I started shipping in my head, which isn't something I usually do.
Anyway, it led me start wondering what it would be like if two transsexuals (without surgery) got into a heterosexual relationship and moved on to a sexual relationship (you know, because many couples eventually want children). And then I had this big mental shudder because it felt really wrong. I mean, the girl with guy parts and the guy with girl parts and whatnot. Like, how weird must it feel to try to have sex using a penis when you're a girl? (And vice versa.)
(And my mental shudder was twice as big as usual when faced with human sexuality, so I think this was more than just my usual personal aversion to sex. Maybe this is that human "empathy" stuff?)
So I'm spending New Year's Eve (even though New Year's is usually in September) home alone listening to music, reading "Rain", and drinking a mix of vodka and orange soda (which is pretty interesting) just because both were there. It's pretty chill.

[Roxxy]

How come we had to get a new thread?

[Mutant Sheep]

How come we had to get a new thread?

Threads can only go to 50 pages. Well, I think they potentially CAN go over 51 pages, but its a real strain on the system. Also, *offers waves and hugs to everyone*

[supernerd]

I think I read Rain on Thursday. 1-5 and 11-6. It's pretty awesome, but I can't drink.

But I'm really impressed with it, though.

It kinda made me feel guilty, 'cause I just AM gay, I've never had to put up with much, never had to fight for it, and definitely never had to try so hard at it. It's pretty humbling, at least for me, and makes me grateful for my own situation, realizing how much harder it could be. But there are so many things about it that make me smile.

It looks like this year is gonna be about fixing all the problems within myself I can find (like ungratefulness, disrespectfulness, high-and-mighty, excetera). Granted I won't find/solve them all, after all, I gotta have faults and quirks or I'd be boring.

Edit: I'll take a hug

[Roxxy]

I wonder. Does anyone know of any fantasy novels with LGBT protagonists?

[supernerd]

I wonder. Does anyone know of any fantasy novels with LGBT protagonists?

Got started on one, but not going anywhere, so probably a bust. And I found that depending on what you're looking for you can find a long series of short stories as chapters or parts to a single story in a compilative database on some website.

[Remmirath]

I wonder. Does anyone know of any fantasy novels with LGBT protagonists?

Here's what I can think of off the top of my head... no guarantees that names are exactly right or the descriptions useful, considering how tired I am, but they're at least close.

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The Nighrunners Series by Lynn Flewelling - Both the main protagonists. Probably both bisexual (both male). A few minor characters, too. I put this one first, because this series if my favourite of the lot - I like the plot and characters and all. I'm extremely fond of the first two books in the series, fairly fond of the third, a bit lukewarm on the fourth, and more fond of the fifth than the fourth.

The Fire's Stone by Tanya Huff - Two out of the three main characters (both male). A rather short book, but a pretty good one. I personally wasn't terribly fond of the characters, but they were at least interesting.

The Last Herald-Mage Trilogy and a few other books by Mercedes Lackey - The main character (male). Honestly, while I loved these books when I was younger, there are some things about her writing style that bug me these days. Not to say they're bad. If you're less picky than me, they're probably fine. The other books, I don't remember which ones they are. It's been a while since I read them. (I've only ever read her Valdemar books, so they'd be some of those.)

The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery, The Heritage of Hastur, and some others by Marion Zimmer Bradley - I do enjoy the whole Darkover series, and as I recall, there's at least some allusion to LGBT stuff in many of them. Those are the ones I remember where it's to do with one of the main characters of the story. For the first three, the two main characters and a few other minor characters (all female), and for the last one the main character and a couple other characters (all male).

The God Eaters by Jesse Hajicek - Sort of ... fantasy/alternate world/western setting? May not be fantasy enough, I suppose? The main characters are I believe both gay (and male). It's not particularly long or particularly short, and I like it pretty well.

I'm sure I've read some others at some point, but they're not coming to mind. Most of the others I think I borrowed from my mom, so I might be able to figure out what they were next time I'm at her place.

[Heliomance]

Well played!
I've seen the clasp issue beaten by putting it on backwards around the belly, rotating it, sliding it up the torso and then putting everything into position.

The thing is, I've seen this done. But even writing that description out, my response is "that's utter bollocks, doesn't it go against the design of the garment?" so now I'm not so sure. Maybe she was just really limber/luckily endowed?

I've seen it done, done it myself. It works perfectly fine. Not sure where you think the problem is?

Have you examined exactly how you would be more androgynous? Specifically, what things you could change about you that would give the desired effect? Less is often more, I find, and a clear concept does wonders. And it's a lot easier to do when you think "change X, Y and Z" than "change stuff for a more generally androgynous look".*

I was going to start with shaving my beard off and getting a haircut, get an MtF friend of mine to come and help choose hairstyles. After that work on my wardrobe, learn makeup and maybe start tucking.

He thinks you're beautiful and sexy and a work of art just as you are.

Aww, you guys *shuffles*

[Serpentine]

I wonder. Does anyone know of any fantasy novels with LGBT protagonists?

Tamora Pierce's Winding Circle series does, and several gay secondary characters. For the most part her characters are straight and cis, but the subject does come up, and I think is handled pretty well. But it's definitely not a big thing in the books, so probably not what you're after.

[KenderWizard]

Happy New Year!

Sounds neat. It's really sad, though, that so many feminist writers (and everyone else too) forget about other groups due to their own privilege. It's like they are all unaware of the existence of non-white, non-heterosexual, non-cissexual people. And I do agree that it's better to exclude by oversight than by intent.

Yes, it is a common problem. I might be creating my own bias (by preferentially staying with blogs that don't annoy me) but I think modern feminist blogs are better for it than traditional feminist writing or other modern things. Once you get to grips with privilege as an idea, it sticks in your head, I think. Like the way a lot of people say they had a moment where they noticed sexism for the first time, and once you start thinking feminist things, it's really hard to stop noticing sexism. Even if you want to just take one evening off to enjoy Iron Man, dammit!

Does the ability to never, ever guess right when there's the choice of turning left or right count?

Only if you can prove it in a laboratory environment!

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Hmm. I think I misunderstood then. I thought you meant "being a victim of sexual assault" as a condition (for lack of a better word) that any particular woman has right now ("having been a victim of sexual assault" is what I read, I think, which is binary), and not "being sexually assaulted at any moment."

Ah, gotcha. I probably could have phrased it better! Yeah, it's the future chance I meant to refer to.

Aha, so the relationship is imaginary, but not the partner?

I think generally, yes, it is an imaginary relationship with an existing person or character. I have to imagine some people do also come up with the lover as well, but generally, I think it's either someone you know, some famous person, or some character.

That's just horrifying. I knew there was a reason those things skeeved me out.

What things? Imaginary relationships?

I agree with you, and this is nitpicking a bit, plus I think you already realize what I'm about to say, but it's really quite useless to say "All women identify as female" when you're defining a woman as someone who identifies as female.

That's kind of my point; the only thing I can come up with is a meaningless tautology!

[SiuiS]

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Hmm.. I think the cut of men's clothing is generally rather unflattering on the typical female figure. I don't quite see what that has to do with my post though. I was mostly lamenting about the psychological discomfort that I associated with men's clothing (especially formal clothing).
[...]
Nothing wrong with liking them. My hatred of them mostly comes from being forced into them, although I do think they're really rather uninteresting.

Hm. I'm having trouble articulating what I meant without it seeming even more awkward on my end, so now I'm worried I should have stopped before I prompted a response
Apologies. Being overly-conversational in threads with specific topics is inept those things I'm trying to stop doing ><

Um. Depending on the strength and reason for the aversion, I've found the potential upsides could often balance things out or turn the tables entirely. Only when looked at when not under the gun though, as during the disliked event one's discomfort is forefront in the mind. And I have always looked best in formal wear that feminizes my figure so I've never really considered The effect of any other cut of clothes ^^"

I've seen it done, done it myself. It works perfectly fine. Not sure where you think the problem is?

after describing it, it just seemed silly. A garment designed around stability being useable when donned 'improperly' sounds off to me. It was a half-thought I threw in to cover myself in case someone took the opposite stance of telling me that it was silly - a precaution because I don't really know you guys. I suppose I should apologize in advance, as I'm vaguely nervous and get wishy-washy.

I was going to start with shaving my beard off and getting a haircut, get an MtF friend of mine to come and help choose hairstyles. After that work on my wardrobe, learn makeup and maybe start tucking.

Sounds like a good plan, then.

And I'm sorry Heliomance. I was caught between wanting to say "no your hair is pretty! D:" and encouraging' ya. I edited the whole post back and forth enough that it ended up not really being anything at all... I'd have corrected it but by then I'm sure it had already been read...

So! You've got a plan, and backup. Good winds and smooth sailing, mate!

[Heliomance]

after describing it, it just seemed silly. A garment designed around stability being useable when donned 'improperly' sounds off to me. It was a half-thought I threw in to cover myself in case someone took the opposite stance of telling me that it was silly - a precaution because I don't really know you guys. I suppose I should apologize in advance, as I'm vaguely nervous and get wishy-washy.

It's not really being donned improperly, it ends up in the same place.

[H Birchgrove]

I wonder. Does anyone know of any fantasy novels with LGBT protagonists?

If Science Fiction suffice, there's Odd John by Olaf Stapledon. (He did inspire C.S. Lewis to write the Space Trilogy.)

[noparlpf]

Yes, it is a common problem. I might be creating my own bias (by preferentially staying with blogs that don't annoy me) but I think modern feminist blogs are better for it than traditional feminist writing or other modern things. Once you get to grips with privilege as an idea, it sticks in your head, I think. Like the way a lot of people say they had a moment where they noticed sexism for the first time, and once you start thinking feminist things, it's really hard to stop noticing sexism. Even if you want to just take one evening off to enjoy Iron Man, dammit!

It's definitely hard to ignore it now that I've noticed it. Watching movies, the odd comment in a book, stuff like that. Now it's not just poor grammar that disrupts the flow of a book for me, it's all these -isms too.

Only if you can prove it in a laboratory environment!

I cannot remember a single time that I have guessed properly when it was just a guess. And I'm the designated navigator when we go on adventures, so I end up making a lot of guesses when we come to forks or crossroads.

[KenderWizard]

It's definitely hard to ignore it now that I've noticed it. Watching movies, the odd comment in a book, stuff like that. Now it's not just poor grammar that disrupts the flow of a book for me, it's all these -isms too.

It's the mildly irritating price we pay for being aware of our culture's shortcomings, I suppose! The long game solution (making everyone aware of this and being part of a sea change as our culture comes ever closer to true equality and fairness for everyone) is way better than the short game solution (turning our brains off to it all) though.

I cannot remember a single time that I have guessed properly when it was just a guess. And I'm the designated navigator when we go on adventures, so I end up making a lot of guesses when we come to forks or crossroads.

Huh. Invest in a map!