Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Reluctance]

Rogueboy:

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• You say "I" a lot. You're describing yourself. If you'd actually read through the Profile Suggestions subforum, you'd see just how common that is. Not to mention how dull. Doubly so if you'd noticed one of the extremely common pieces of advice thrown around; read the competition's profiles, learn the cliches, and then avoid them like the plague.
• Illustrate. Anybody can say that they're fun to be around. Just like anybody can say that they're a millionaire, that they've cured cancer, or that they have a gold-plated penis. You have to show these things if you want people to believe them. (Except for the last. Because ick.) And you have to show that you're a fun guy to spend time around if you want people to be interested in you.
• Photos: Do you have fashion-forwards friends? Artsy ones? The volleyball one isn't half bad, the rest could use some polish. Women are just as shallow as men are, and chunky geeky dudes don't get much more attention than properly chunky geeky girls.
• You have the Y chromosome, you'll have to do all the messaging. That's the way it is unless you're too high for the desirability meter to read, or until women fall right off of it. If you've read threads around, you'll see what works. And more to the point, very common things that don't.

[Sholos]

If anyone's willing to critique (and, ideally, explain their critiques) my OKCupid account (just made it a few days ago), could you PM me? Thanks.

On that note, any general online dating advice would be appreciated - first-timer to that world.

Can I ask the same thing? Profile is here.

[Reluctance]

Sholos:

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One poorly-lit picture. One. That might work if you're really hot. For all the rest of us, photos are less about how we look, and more about showing that we go out and do things. Go find ones with less of a "you think it was scary walking into the woods? I'm going to have to walk out all alone" vibe.

Otherwise, the super-bare-bones advice I gave rogueboy. The journal links. The subforum. The checking up on the competition. You've got a bog-standard nerdboy theme going. When there are tens of thousands of guys just like you out there, you have a huge uphill battle ahead of you.

The forums there will probably be harsher than I'm comfortable being here. But take my word on this, you need it.

[Ancano]

I'm thinking of trying out online dating and can't for the life of me find a photo that makes me look even remotely decent. I'm not photogenic and as a result have very few pictures of myself, all of which are bad. If you're really unattractive, is it worth using a photo that obscures most of your appearance? Perhaps a silhouette or a really dark photo? Or will people be turned off and just assume the worst?

[rogueboy]

Rogueboy:

Spoiler

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• You say "I" a lot. You're describing yourself. If you'd actually read through the Profile Suggestions subforum, you'd see just how common that is. Not to mention how dull. Doubly so if you'd noticed one of the extremely common pieces of advice thrown around; read the competition's profiles, learn the cliches, and then avoid them like the plague.
• Illustrate. Anybody can say that they're fun to be around. Just like anybody can say that they're a millionaire, that they've cured cancer, or that they have a gold-plated penis. You have to show these things if you want people to believe them. (Except for the last. Because ick.) And you have to show that you're a fun guy to spend time around if you want people to be interested in you.
• Photos: Do you have fashion-forwards friends? Artsy ones? The volleyball one isn't half bad, the rest could use some polish. Women are just as shallow as men are, and chunky geeky dudes don't get much more attention than properly chunky geeky girls.
• You have the Y chromosome, you'll have to do all the messaging. That's the way it is unless you're too high for the desirability meter to read, or until women fall right off of it. If you've read threads around, you'll see what works. And more to the point, very common things that don't.

Spoiler

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Made some changes to the profile, but am still working on moving from "tell" to "show", as well as minimizing the I's.

I have very few friends who take many pictures, and sadly, the ones I do have are on the opposite coast from me. I swapped the volleyball shot to be the primary photo, however. Wanting to have more/better photos is usually on the back of my mind, though in the past it's usually just been wanting a better profile pic for facebook.

Yeah, I've sent a few messages (no responses so far - is there a typical response time for these? Mostly just curious on that front), and expect to be sending a lot more. Haven't been finding a lot of profiles that are particularly interesting. I guess that comes from wanting to avoid undergrads in a town that's 50% undergrads, and almost everyone has work-based connections to the university.

[AtlanteanTroll]

It seems I am yet another victim of unrequited love. Ah well.

[Heliomance]

So A is officially with E. This is not surprising, both of E's previous girlfriends admit that it wouldn't have been possible to talk them out of goig out with him beforehand. She has at least said that she's going to be very careful, as she values my (our) judgment(s). She's taking the attitude that you can't live life without risks, and trying makes for a very boring life.

ION, as I mentioned there is a girl that I'm interested in getting to know better. How do you subtly sound out whether someone is attached without tipping your hand?

[Lord Loss]

How do you subtly sound out whether someone is attached without tipping your hand?

In general, you don't. You either make a move and hope for the best, or you don't and risk letting an opportunity slide by. You can be tipped off by things like flirting, the person in question looking for your approval when it comes to things and other subtle hints but you won't often be able to figure things out and you'll never ever be 100% sure.

[Reluctance]

So A is officially with E. This is not surprising, both of E's previous girlfriends admit that it wouldn't have been possible to talk them out of goig out with him beforehand. She has at least said that she's going to be very careful, as she values my (our) judgment(s). She's taking the attitude that you can't live life without risks, and trying makes for a very boring life.

Get her to sign a sheet of paper saying exactly that. It won't stop her from doing anything in the short term, but it'll shut her up when she comes crying to you after the fact. I assume you have better things to do with your time than validate other peoples' mistakes.

{Scrubbed}

[Heliomance]

Get her to sign a sheet of paper saying exactly that. It won't stop her from doing anything in the short term, but it'll shut her up when she comes crying to you after the fact. I assume you have better things to do with your time than validate other peoples' mistakes.

That's... kind of a douchebaggy thing to do. I'm more pleasant than that to my friends

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Ahahaha. I said attached, not interested. I'm fine with finding out by experiment if someone is interested in me, but I'd rather find out if they already have a boyfriend before I start flirtations. Saves awkwardness all round.

[Vella_Malachite]

Hey, all. Just a minor problem/question to ask about.

I've noticed that I don't like making eye contact with people. Even with friends and family - I don't mind talking to someone and meeting their eyes, but more than a couple of seconds makes me uncomfortable.

This means that, when I do the relationship thing, and the guy wants to do the romantic gazing-into-eyes thing, I get really awkward about it. I look away, I hug him/make out or try to make a conversation to avoid it.

Is this 'normal' (or, at least, within acceptable bounds of normality)? I'm probably likely to give the wrong impression, but coming right out and saying "I don't like eye contact" seems like it'd make me look like I'm hiding something about as much.

Can someone offer some advice or insight?

[arguskos]

Ahahaha. I said attached, not interested. I'm fine with finding out by experiment if someone is interested in me, but I'd rather find out if they already have a boyfriend before I start flirtations. Saves awkwardness all round.

Uh... ask? I mean, that sorta stuff comes up sometimes in conversation, it can be acceptable to just ASK.

Also, talk to their friends. Find out from folks who know them. There's ways, you just have to be surreptitious.

[Rawhide]

Ahahaha. I said attached, not interested. I'm fine with finding out by experiment if someone is interested in me, but I'd rather find out if they already have a boyfriend before I start flirtations. Saves awkwardness all round.

Invite her somewhere with friends, tell her she can bring her boyfriend with her, wait for reaction.

[Dogmantra]

Can someone offer some advice or insight?

I don't really like looking into people's eyes either, incidentally it's why I think I like how glasses look. Anyway. It's very normal to feel uncomfortable after looking into someone's eyes for more than a few seconds, and it's not even expected that you ought to be staring into people's eyes for extended periods of time (that comes off as really aggressive). If you honestly think you're not making enough eye contact though, have you tried looking at people's noses and foreheads and, if they have them, glasses? I think it helps when I want to make more eye contact but feel to awkward.

[Serpentine]

I'm thinking of trying out online dating and can't for the life of me find a photo that makes me look even remotely decent. I'm not photogenic and as a result have very few pictures of myself, all of which are bad. If you're really unattractive, is it worth using a photo that obscures most of your appearance? Perhaps a silhouette or a really dark photo? Or will people be turned off and just assume the worst?

I'd like to start off by bringing up a semi-regular saying from this thread: "Everyone is somebody's fetish." No matter how unattractive you think you are, someone out there - most likely many someones - thinks you're teh hawtness. Many more will likely be neutral on the matter.
For your actual question: no, it's not worth doing that. Or I don't think so, anyway. I think a better idea would be looking for interesting pictures of you, doing fun things or being silly or pulling faces or hanging out with friends or whatever. If your face isn't your best feature, then use your pictures to show the things you think are your best features.

Hey, all. Just a minor problem/question to ask about.

I've noticed that I don't like making eye contact with people. Even with friends and family - I don't mind talking to someone and meeting their eyes, but more than a couple of seconds makes me uncomfortable.

This means that, when I do the relationship thing, and the guy wants to do the romantic gazing-into-eyes thing, I get really awkward about it. I look away, I hug him/make out or try to make a conversation to avoid it.

Is this 'normal' (or, at least, within acceptable bounds of normality)? I'm probably likely to give the wrong impression, but coming right out and saying "I don't like eye contact" seems like it'd make me look like I'm hiding something about as much.

Can someone offer some advice or insight?

I'd call it "within acceptable bounds of normality". My ex didn't like it either.
Fun fact: in Indonesia, maintaining eye contact when talking to someone means you don't trust them. It's more normal to be gazing off into space or fiddling with your phone or whatever while talking to someone.

[Malfunctioned]

So, you might remember my last post which was about me being annoyed at myself for having a crush on someone whilst I was with my LDR.

The good news is I don't have to feel guilty about it.

So me and the LDR talked about it and decided that everything, combined with my own issues due to my depression, wasn't working out, and decided to end it. I still have feelings for her and if she was here and not over 4000 miles away we would without a doubt still be together. But alas.

In other news there is that girl I mentioned before.
It turns out she's basically best friends with Brain, who changed from being "No, It's a bad idea she likes someone else" to "You and her are made for each other, seriously, I will get you together" in the space of one evening where I pretty sure they spent the night talking. My other friends all basically feel the same way as well.

There is one problem. The other guy.

Basically, there's another guy who likes her too. None of our friends can stand him and the only thing that I can recall her saying she likes about him is that he's tall. Despite this she does act quite close with him, almost as much as with me and it's hard to get alone with her as he is around most of the time.

On the other hand when all three of us were walking to a train station a couple of nights ago after a party she did turn and kiss me. On the cheek. The thing on my mind is whether she actually intended to kiss me on the cheek due to mutual turning at that point. So yeah.


But aside from that my life seems to be relatively uncomplicated at this point. Hopefully things will work out for me. I hope. I just wanted to know if any of you guys have any advice about this.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I've realized part of my problem.

I'm paranoid, and violently independent. And while I'm very observant, my history with untrustworthy females leads me to be doubtful of positive attentions from females. So while I may notice a woman being flirtatious, I tend to think she wants something from me, at which point I become an iceberg. If I even suspect a woman is being malevolently flirtatious, I become an iceberg, so I've probably shut a few people down inadvertently and never quite got the chance to try again.

Not sure how I could go about fixing it, but I suppose interactions with women who don't break faith with me on an immediate and predictable basis could help.

[rogueboy]

I've realized part of my problem.

I'm paranoid, and violently independent. And while I'm very observant, my history with untrustworthy females leads me to be doubtful of positive attentions from females. So while I may notice a woman being flirtatious, I tend to think she wants something from me, at which point I become an iceberg. If I even suspect a woman is being malevolently flirtatious, I become an iceberg, so I've probably shut a few people down inadvertently and never quite got the chance to try again.

Not sure how I could go about fixing it, but I suppose interactions with women who don't break faith with me on an immediate and predictable basis could help.

First thought at reading this: how are you going to get those interactions, if you aren't willing to trust that they might not break faith with you? I realize this probably doesn't help, but I guess my point is this: you're going to have to change something fundamental about your interactions with women if you want things to change (and yes, I realize that this probably isn't news to you). I'm just throwing thoughts out here, hopefully it causes something you (or someone else) can build on, preferably towards something productive.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

First thought at reading this: how are you going to get those interactions, if you aren't willing to trust that they might not break faith with you? I realize this probably doesn't help, but I guess my point is this: you're going to have to change something fundamental about your interactions with women if you want things to change (and yes, I realize that this probably isn't news to you). I'm just throwing thoughts out here, hopefully it causes something you (or someone else) can build on, preferably towards something productive.

I do periodically have interactions of the sort, but usually only after knowing the person for a while and trusting them to the degree that I allow myself to be influenced by their attentions.

In the last three cases, it has led to them coming to me some months into the relationship and admitting there was someone else, and me telling them (in complete honesty) that I knew. Perhaps, if that weren't the pattern, I could more freely engage in such interactions.

[rogueboy]

I do periodically have interactions of the sort, but usually only after knowing the person for a while and trusting them to the degree that I allow myself to be influenced by their attentions.

Umm.... what sort are you talking about here? Because what you mention below is exactly the wrong type of interaction to be having in order to get to the point where you're willing to trust women.

In the last three cases, it has led to them coming to me some months into the relationship and admitting there was someone else, and me telling them (in complete honesty) that I knew. Perhaps, if that weren't the pattern, I could more freely engage in such interactions.

I think I (slightly) misunderstood your earlier post (I assumed less romantic involvement/interest, for whatever reason), but my question still stands: how are you going to get the interactions that make you trust someone, when that someone is in a group that you (currently) distrust?

[Comrade]

Can someone offer some advice or insight?

I reckon I can relate. Looking into people's eyes for extended periods of time while conversing just makes me feel weird, and I don't think there's anything particularly problematic about it.

[DeadManSleeping]

This means that, when I do the relationship thing, and the guy wants to do the romantic gazing-into-eyes thing, I get really awkward about it. I look away, I hug him/make out or try to make a conversation to avoid it.

If I were in a romantic relationship with someone like this, I would basically just try to initiate eye contact like all the time

I admit, I'm not a big fan of eye-staring either. I have fidgety eyes. Could I sit and study the nuances of someone else's eyes? Yes. But it would be less "romantic" for me and more "lookit all the parts and doodads" (which, granted, for a nerdy enough person, might be romantic anyway). You're very clearly not alone in your preference of activities.

[Coidzor]

I reckon I can relate. Looking into people's eyes for extended periods of time while conversing just makes me feel weird, and I don't think there's anything particularly problematic about it.

I believe you are allowed to take breaks every now and then.

I mean, even gazing lovingly into the eyes of a lover pre or post kisses that bookend the awesome makeouts, one has, what, 10, 15 seconds of sustained eye contact before transitioning into or out of makeout time?

[Stardrake]

Invite her somewhere with friends, tell her she can bring her boyfriend with her, wait for reaction.

Or, more subtly, tell her that partners are welcome (especially if you can tell her that a couple of your other friends are bringing theirs). That gives her the cue to reveal her relationship status one way or the other without it being directly about her relationship status.

[term1nally s1ck]

"Partners are welcome, and if you can't bring your own, one will be provided. "

Flirty, amusing, and a general enquiry without being too forward.

[H Birchgrove]

My profile is H_Birchgrove, if anyone would like to take a looksee.

Can I ask the same thing? Profile is here.

89% Match
80% Friend
11% Enemy

If only you weren't straight...

[rogueboy]

I happened to stumble across the profile of a good friend on OKCupid, with somewhat unexpected results: ~50% friend, far lower match, and 40% (or higher, I don't really remember) enemy. This is one of my very close friends. It's made me question how accurate those measures can really be.

[H Birchgrove]

I happened to stumble across the profile of a good friend on OKCupid, with somewhat unexpected results: ~50% friend, far lower match, and 40% (or higher, I don't really remember) enemy. This is one of my very close friends. It's made me question how accurate those measures can really be.

They're based on the questions you and other OKCupido members answer, may it be on favourite sports, food, or preference of partners. Take it with a grain of salt, and check what questions he or she has answered.

[Reluctance]

H Birchgrove:

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Three pictures. One of them being a generic avatar-cartoon that's useless, and in violation of the photo rules. Another which is you, sitting around in your room. The third is your second, only crappier. If all you have is webcam/cellphone images alone in your room, that makes a statement about your social life. No, going to the bathroom instead does not improve anything.

From there, be honest with me. If I were a cute girl reading your profile, what would stand out about it enough to make me want to message? Yes, I'm excluding guys. Practically speaking, so are you. I'd tell you the exact line where you crash and burn, but if you don't see it yourself, it's not my place to help you cover that trait from other guys. Not coincidentally, it's also where you go from milquetoast to a proper crash&burn with girls as well.

BTW. Giving top billing to a petition means that their attention is directed to it. Not only that, but it's a sucky petition. Match.com does not own OKC; they're both subsidiaries of IAC. And while turning every field into a text box (how many profiles open with "I hate writing these things..."?) may give some folks warm fuzzies, it makes actual searches incredibly obnoxious. Identity politics is the same thing that brought the site such gems as needing two distinct fields to convey the same information about what sort of person you're looking for.

[rogueboy]

They're based on the questions you and other OKCupido members answer, may it be on favourite sports, food, or preference of partners. Take it with a grain of salt, and check what questions he or she has answered.

Yeah, I know that. And I have my reasons for not actually looking at her profile (and thus, not knowing how she answered various questions), but those are more personal than anything, so I'm not gonna go into them. I just find it amusing that I end up with the "enemy" score almost as high as the "friend" score (or maybe it was higher? I hid her profile so it stopped showing up in searches, and haven't looked at it since), for someone who I know I get along with very well.