Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[dehro]

bring cookies

[Reluctance]

It is low success tactic, but as I'm not in a hurry to be in a relationship so it works well enough for me.

This "I am a self-sufficient island" thing would be totally believable if I couldn't read two pages back.

Speaking personally, I'm having a fun little something that's reminding me how nice it is to feel wanted. That's a much more realistic dating goal than settling down with a lifemate is.

[tgva8889]

So, um, how do I go about confirming someone else's feelings for me? I have been having suspicions that a friend of mine is interested in something with me, but I have nothing that immediately confirms it. We've been getting closer and closer and I am actually really interested in her.

The problem is that I have had lots of bad experiences with revealing my feelings, and I really don't want to lose another friend. I know the fear is kind of irrational, but it happened to me once before with a very good friend, and I don't want it to happen again.

I can give more details if they seem necessary. I'm just really nervous.

[noparlpf]

So, um, how do I go about confirming someone else's feelings for me? I have been having suspicions that a friend of mine is interested in something with me, but I have nothing that immediately confirms it. We've been getting closer and closer and I am actually really interested in her.

The problem is that I have had lots of bad experiences with revealing my feelings, and I really don't want to lose another friend. I know the fear is kind of irrational, but it happened to me once before with a very good friend, and I don't want it to happen again.

I can give more details if they seem necessary. I'm just really nervous.

Try dropping subtle hints? I'd normally suggest just telling her, but if you're worried about that, try hinting at it and see if she shows anything. Unless she's also really shy or the type who expects the man to initiate things.

[Serpentine]

Organise a movie night. Movie + darkness + blanket + "just happening" to always sit next to her -> "accidentally" brushing up against her in the darkness -> hand-holding attempts -> avoidance or reciprocation = confirmation of feelings either way with plausible deniability.

[Indurain]

Organise a movie night. Movie + darkness + blanket + "just happening" to always sit next to her -> "accidentally" brushing up against her in the darkness -> hand-holding attempts -> avoidance or reciprocation = confirmation of feelings either way with plausible deniability.

You're good!!
If I ever become single again, this is my plan! Always!!!

[Serpentine]

It's my method of choice

[UserClone]

So. My girlfriend, age 24, lives with her parents and is going to tutorial in preparation for re-taking her leaving cert, and this after having already earned a degree in Midwifery. The reason she is re-taking the leaving cert is because she wants to get a better score in the hopes of getting Medicine, Pharmacy, or Dentistry.

Myself, 28, I am a shipyard worker, and have been supporting myself for about 8 years now. No roommate, no mommy. Just me.

We are having an argument over Skype (this is a long-distance relationship, she is in Ireland and I am in the US; we have been together for two and a half years now) and I'm just like, "Look, we're done here. This isn't productive and I don't feel like talking anymore. Goodnight."

She responds with, "That isn't how it works in the real world, [UserClone]."

I was incredulous. "What the **** would you know about the real world, honestly? Which of us has been living in it for a decade, and which of us has yet to dare step foot in it?"

We bickered for about ten minutes regarding what that was supposed to mean (since she had worked in a paid internship as a midwife while at school, living in a flat with two roommates and also she'd done some part-time work in shops) before I shut it down again, and we said goodnight and hung up (not amicably).
[/vent]

[Serpentine]

Oh dear... Afraid you might've stepped in it, Cloney :/
What was the original argument about?

[UserClone]

No no, I believe my original point stands. I, between the two of us, am the one living "out there in the real world" while she is living in the safety of mommy's house, and doesn't have any responsibilities beyond trying to do well in school. No actual consequences of failure beyond, "don't get the course I wanted to."

[noparlpf]

If that's your main argument, sorry dude, but I think you're in the wrong here and should apologise to her.

[Serpentine]

Except it doesn't really stand. Living at home until her sort of age is downright normal nowadays, and trying to get the best qualifications she can is sensible; holding it in contempt kinda comes across as naive. And the fact you do hold her situation in contempt does not speak at all well for what you think of her.
There's also a particular reason why I asked what the original argument was about: because if her living conditions didn't actually have any relevance to that argument, then you were pretty much just insulting your girlfriend for the heck of it.
In conclusion: from what you've described here, you insulted your girlfriend, her situation, her maturity, her life-choices, and her experiences, for no reason but to call her out on some arguably unfortunate phrasing. I'm with Nope...

[UserClone]

If that's how you feel about it fine, but the thrust of my argument is that she already got a four-year degree in an unrelated field. Now instead of working in that field and going to school for the career she now wants, she's asked her mother to pay for her to go back to school again, essentially re-doing the final year of high school. THEN she will go to school for five more years.

She is claiming that I know less about the real world than she does, when she is the one living this charmed life where you can just live at your parents' house and go to school on someone else's dime until you're thirty.

It's not that I'm disparaging that particular path in life, it's that I'm baffled as to how she can claim to know more about "the real world" from such a position of ridiculous privilege.

[Serpentine]

Everything you're saying about her just screams contempt: contempt for her, for her choices, even for her intelligence. Her wording may have been bad and unnecessary, but you need to pick your battles - and you've picked the wrong one.
You need to detach your issue from that one line. It is clearly far, far bigger than that, and you need to consider it in isolation, rather than tied up with a petty quibble.

[rogueboy]

The discussion doesn't really have anything to do with your point, from what I've understood. It's how you brought that up.

From what you've told us, you were having an argument, decided that "we're done here" was going to end it, and she responded with a comment that irked you; namely, "that isn't how it works in the real world". Which, to be honest? Is completely true. Announcing that "we're done here" doesn't end an argument, it says that one (or both) of you aren't willing to try to see where the other person is coming from. And in my experience, the person who says "we're done here" is usually the one who hasn't been willing to see the other side of the argument (I say this having been both the recipient and deliverer of that line).

The point that's been raised has, very simply, been that one of 2 things is true: 1) you screwed up, and should do what you can to fix that, or 2) there's something that you haven't told us that would make (1) not true. However, given you're response to people suggesting (2), I'm going to have to lean towards (1) being the case, at least without further information.

Also, what Serp said. Seriously, she's good at this stuff.

[UserClone]

Where are you reading contempt for her intelligence? Just out of curiosity.

[Serpentine]

Mostly hints, such as here:

Now instead of working in that field and going to school for the career she now wants, she's asked her mother to pay for her to go back to school again, essentially re-doing the final year of high school. THEN she will go to school for five more years.

("what a silly person, I know better" is what I'm taking from this)

...it's that I'm baffled as to how she can claim to know more about "the real world" from such a position of ridiculous privilege.

[UserClone]

Okay guys, you win. I'm a prick.

[Serpentine]

No you're not. You acted kinda prickish. Past tense. What determines your prick status is what you do next.

More importantly: You clearly have Opinions about the choices she's making. What does this mean for your relationship? Can you live with them, and support her in them, and advise without condemning, or is her situation always going to colour the way you see her?

[UserClone]

Look, here's the deal: as I've told her from the start, I'm actually quite proud of the hard work she is doing to earn another degree and have an excellent career, and while I support that, I loathe comments like the above one, where she presumes to know something about "the real world," while assuming that I do not, nor is it the only context in which such a comment has come up. She flat-out has not yet experienced the real world.

The real world is the one that doesn't give a **** about you, and if you can't pay, will put you on the street in a second. The real world is the one where if you don't like your job, you continue working there until you find a new one. You don't have the luxury of just deciding to take a year off to see if you can get a better score on something and then five more years of sitting in a classroom and going home to a home-cooked meal. That is not realistic, I would think, for most people. That is called "privilege."

This is not the first time this type of argument has exploded between us, though it is the first time I can remember that it started out as just a poorly-worded comment.

[Serpentine]

That may be what you really think - although the "real world" is a pretty nebulous concept as it is, and it seems slightly odd to me to get so hung up on it; if she's off to a good start giving herself a good run in the Big Scary World, is it really such a bad thing if she's a bit naive for a little while? - but that isn't the message you're sending her. The message - as you've described yourself and what you've said to her, here - is that you think she's a silly little spoiled girl who knows nothing about anything and is just clinging to her "mommy's" apron strings. Not that you think it's great that she's building towards a good career but you think she's a bit naive about the way the world works, but that she's a cowardly little self-important child.
Just something to think about.

[UserClone]

...is she not a cowardly little self-important child?

[Serpentine]

If you really think that, why are you with her? How can you honestly say you're proud of her?
To be perfectly frank, the picture of your relationship you're painting here doesn't sound healthy for either of you.

[DeadManSleeping]

What she means by "real world" and what you mean by "real world". She's talking about careers which demand a lot of pre-work to get into, or you get kicked into fast food. You're talking about the real world, which requires a lot of fast food to get into, or you get kicked into the dumpster. They're both real worlds. They're both scary, they're both stressful.

It's okay for you to feel like she's naive. She doesn't understand your experiences. But you shouldn't be dismissive of hers.

[UserClone]

I am, all the same. She isn't those things. She acts that way, sometimes, just as I act prick-ish, but she is still pretty great a lot of the time. She's dedicated to her studies, and she's very sweet, and also quite kind to animals, et al.

I just can't stand it when she presumes to tell me how the world works.

Like I said, this isn't the first time, and it's certainly the weakest context.

[rogueboy]

...is she not a cowardly little self-important child?

Because she wants to get a job that she'll be happy with, even if that means additional time spent in school? No, she's definitely not cowardly, or self-important.

Perhaps this isn't the best analogy, as the school systems are clearly very different between the UK and US (no surprise there, really), but I cannot count the number of people I know who have, at the end of their undergraduate careers (or later), decided that they didn't want to do what they had trained for. Some change majors and complete school. Some abandon their degree and drop out. Others get their degree, and then do something completely unrelated. And I would argue that every one of those choices are completely acceptable. Perfectly desired? No. But no one's going to have everything go perfectly. And realizing that you need additional or different training to be doing something you want to be doing for the rest of your life? I'd argue that's about as far from cowardly as you can get.

[tgva8889]

Try dropping subtle hints? I'd normally suggest just telling her, but if you're worried about that, try hinting at it and see if she shows anything. Unless she's also really shy or the type who expects the man to initiate things.

I guess more obvious subtle hints? I will try this.

Organise a movie night. Movie + darkness + blanket + "just happening" to always sit next to her -> "accidentally" brushing up against her in the darkness -> hand-holding attempts -> avoidance or reciprocation = confirmation of feelings either way with plausible deniability.

Amusingly, a movie night is where I first wondered if she was actually interested.

But yes, this actually sounds like something that might work theoretically. Assuming there can be blankets.

[Sholos]

@UserClone: There's also the fact that she was speaking of the real world in terms of dating and arguing. You're the one who brought in the whole living with her mother situation (also, using the term "mommy" is really condescending in the US, not sure about the UK), which had absolutely nothing to do with her comment. So clearly her situation is bugging you, not just her comment. And, again, she was right. Arguments don't just end because one of the two participants wants them to. Either both agree to stop arguing, or a middle ground is arrived at. An appropriate thing to say might have been, "I can't continue arguing about this right now," or something similar, but you can't just declare the argument to be finished.

[noparlpf]

...is she not a cowardly little self-important child?

Um...if that's what you think of her, why are you in a relationship with her?

What she means by "real world" and what you mean by "real world". She's talking about careers which demand a lot of pre-work to get into, or you get kicked into fast food. You're talking about the real world, which requires a lot of fast food to get into, or you get kicked into the dumpster. They're both real worlds. They're both scary, they're both stressful.

It's okay for you to feel like she's naive. She doesn't understand your experiences. But you shouldn't be dismissive of hers.

Exactly, there's more than one way to live. And both are the real world.

Something else--I think both of you were slightly in the wrong before the whole "real world" argument started. You were arguing about something and getting nowhere. In that case, I think it can be a good idea to sleep on it and try to work things out after having thought about the other person's perspective the next day. The right way to do that is to word it about how I just said it, not to say, "This is going nowhere, so why bother continuing?" On the other hand, her response was sort of condescending. Both of you were running on high emotions, which isn't the best state of mind to argue in.

I guess more obvious subtle hints? I will try this.



Amusingly, a movie night is where I first wondered if she was actually interested.

But yes, this actually sounds like something that might work theoretically. Assuming there can be blankets.

Good luck!

[dehro]

...is she not a cowardly little self-important child?

honestly, if this is your true opinion of her you should end your relationship with her now..better for the pair of you.
we all tend to believe that our experiences in life are somehow more formative and tougher and makes us more prepared to deal with life than many others do.
this often isn't true. there is no valid principle of equivalency in these things.
dropping out of school and becoming a stay at home mum, dropping out of school and becoming a binman, earning a scholarship and starting a teaching job straight out of school, working your butt off all your life in a factory or farm.. being a cop or a nurse.. becoming a high-rolling banker..
none of these paths can claim a priority in determining the self-worth of an individual.
until you've done all you could with your life, raised a family, struggled to hardships you've so far only read about in the news, facend some pretty afwul things and some really great and uplifting ones, both you and your girlfriend know squat about "real life"..or at least not as much as you both think you know. and this is probably true for most people on this forum, myself included.
so yeah, you've been just as conceited as she has been...except she just chose a poor wording whereby she probably just meant that it wouldn't "just be over" if you two were face to face...
and you took that for an affirmation about your mutual quality of life and life experience.... and from there you've actually started looking down on her from a pretty high pedestal made of the tools you use in your professional career.
accept it, you are wrong.
now it's your turn to either apologize or maybe realize that you really do look down on her... and take it from there.
I wouldn't be able to be together with a girl I didn't respect for who she is and what she does..but that's just me