The absolute worst class of all time (you haven't seen this one before)

[Eldan]

Heh. Well played. I'll point out that he had effectively an epic spell in his head as well, but yeah, I can certainly see him being statted as mostly commoner at least. He's fairly good at running away from things, and has a lack of other abilities of note.

I'd put Rincewind down as an Expert, actually. He has tons of skill points in Speak Language, and some pretty broad education, indicating knowledge skills.

[missmvicious]

I think the point was the fluff.

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

Also, DMPCs are typically considered bad form, but protection quests aren't terribly uncommon (which tends to require a useless DMPC), especially for L1 Characters. I'm in one now in 3.5, and I'm also DM'ing a scripted 4E one (Keep on the Shadowfell). So, at least, by my experience, they happen often enough to require weak DMPCs.

Problem is (in 3.5), even if you don't want your DMPC getting involved in fights, it gets hard to justify to your players why your L1 Commoner doesn't pick up his pitchfork and at least cause a flanking bonus. One look at the Uplifts stats would probably shut the mouths of most players who gripe about how they could use a little help over here.

[aabicus]

This class also isn't proficient with "any" weapon. Without optimization, it probably couldn't even hit something, let alone kill it. The "instinct" is the closest thing this class has to a game-breaker, but I can't find a creature feat that would be really, really useful.

Also, missmvicious is probably right. The page even lampshades it: "They do not tend to live very long."

[Eldariel]

^Not when Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard.

That's only one interpretation and an extremely arguable one at that though. Gandalf could just as easily be statted as level 300 as level 5 (basically, level 5 is the minimum for an easy representation of Gandalf). Same goes for most of the characters in LotR and it's all mostly because in D&D, level matters far, far less than class and wealth. Also, Tolkien's works really cannot be represented well in D&D rules. At all.

When fights between two entities can take days, people can still die in one hit, a mortal can outfight a vala (though still lose 'cause it's impossible to actually kill a vala) and so on, it's just not something that really falls under a simple HP paradigm like D&D.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldariel
Also, Tolkien's works really cannot be represented well in D&D rules. At all.

Thank you. Let this be proclaimed throughout the land.



As for Rincewind, he might qualify for one of the Apprentice classes from the 3.0 DMG. Not sure why he would ever actually gain any levels, since running away isn't typically an XP-rich activity.

I could see him having a short stack of luck feats, though. Human bonus feat plus two flaws would give him four at first level, which might allow for some flavorful combos.

[FMArthur]

I have a feeling that this was made specifically for a campaign (useless to outsiders...), and made in the world as some kind of punitive servant role - like someone mindraped by an illithid empire or something to bring out beverages and scrub floors until the end of their days. They are deliberately engineered to have especially weak wills, poor language skills and complete combat ineptitude to make them 100% dependent on their masters and absolutely useless to all others.

If this had the race's (class?) complete story (or was simply made by someone competent) there would probably be some kind of ascendance detailed, akin to retraining. That's how I would handle it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a feeling that this was made specifically for a campaign (useless to outsiders...), and made in the world as some kind of punitive servant role - like someone mindraped by an illithid empire or something to bring out beverages and scrub floors until the end of their days. They are deliberately engineered to have especially weak wills, poor language skills and complete combat ineptitude to make them 100% dependent on their masters and absolutely useless to all others.

If this had the race's (class?) complete story (or was simply made by someone competent) there would probably be some kind of ascendance detailed, akin to retraining. That's how I would handle it.

Well, the 'fluff', such as it is, pretty much states that it takes a non-sentient animal, and turns it into a Human. Not a furre, not an anthro, a regular ol' human. And, playing the trope straight, they just aren't very good at it.

[Ravens_cry]

This spell does a better job of, whatever this class is trying to do.

If I was making this class, and even if I wanted it to suck initially, I would add things as it levels. Like first level, you understand language, but can only use gestures and growls in reply. A level or so later you can speak. After that, you can walk on hind legs and use things with your paws, clumsily (a minus to certain skill and attacks) then a level or so later you get hands, removing the penalties, then increasing bonuses to passing as human with the disguise skill.
Capstone would be becoming a Real Boy™
It would still suck, but at least it would do its job, uplifting a beast.

[Palanan]

From their very brief description, it sounds like someone was just trying to stat out one of the uplifted client races from David Brin's Uplift series. These would, in essence, be alien commoners.

It's been a while, but I think the Tymbrimi had a client race that was small, furry, not especially aggressive, but helped out as sidekicks. This might fit them well.

[Ravens_cry]

The Tytlal seemed more competent than this.
Besides, why not just stat out a race and use ordinary Commoner? This class doesn't help a character become uplifted in any way.

[Coidzor]

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

No it's not, because it creates a human instead of an anthropomorphic animal and tons of hilariously bad furry porn jokes from the rest of the group.

Further, people who need to stat out something like that are kind of missing the point.

[FMArthur]

Also, I don't think it's the worst class ever by any measure. Since the scope of the comparison contains homebrew sources, if the aim is to find the weakest class the bottom of that barrel is arbitrarily low. Here, watch me homebrew something weaker:

{table]

The Gamecrasher[br]{table=head]Level|BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Class Features
1|-100|-100|-100|-100|DM Moves Away[/table]

[br]DM Moves Away (Ex): Upon attaining first level, you die. Your soul is destroyed utterly and you cannot be revived or interacted with in any way. If an effect would ordinarily provide an exception to this permanence, it ceases to exist and is removed from the multiverse forever, and then you die.[br][br]Special: All characters must take levels in The Gamecrasher when it is introduced to the game.

| [/table]

Really this thread should be about the very poorest quality homebrew on the internet, since there's really nothing special about the Commoner Junior.

[Ravens_cry]

I can think of a few ways to make that class worse. One, replace the - one hundred with - infinity, make it so that levles of this class must be taken even if it isn't introduced to the game and add a special class feature that all rolls are automatic failures and no other rule can change that.
But yes, I agree that making an arbitrarily bad class is super easy.

[aabicus]

Hmm, maybe I should make a thread for comparing horrible homebrew classes users can find. I love looking at implemented ideas gone terribly wrong.

I just keep thinking, there must be some way to abuse this build with a creature feat that was never intended for a 1st level PC. Isn't there a creature somewhere in all the hundreds of 3.5 sourcebooks that has a killer feat that could singlehandedly rocket one of these uplifts into Munchkin territories?

[Amechra]

The Tarrasque. A level dip gets you Awesome Blow.

So... a level dip in a sucky class to get an Epic feat...

Wait, I can do it one better: You are an Uplifted Elder Titan. Your Instinct feat is Epic Spellcasting. Note that, while this is against flavor, this is TOTALLY allowed by the crunch.

Or, for other types of fun... a couple other Epic beasties would grant stuff like Spell Stowaway of your choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Really this thread should be about the very poorest quality homebrew on the internet, since there's really nothing special about the Commoner Junior.

The OP's link DID come from dandwiki... 'poorest quality homebrew on the internet' pretty much describes it completely, but it's not something I would care to engage in discussion about. At least, not before, during, or after meals.

[missmvicious]

No it's not, because it creates a human instead of an anthropomorphic animal and tons of hilariously bad furry porn jokes from the rest of the group.

Further, people who need to stat out something like that are kind of missing the point.

So... it creates something that looks exactly like a human or other race? Somehow, I got it in my head that they at least kept some of their animalistic features... like the ears or a tail or something. If not, then that's probably how it should be re-fluffed... pun intended.

I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

And, which point are they missing? *again, confused*

[Draz74]

And speaking of skill points, this is the first class I've seen that gives an odd number.

To subvert a comment that has been made several times on this thread ... That's what you get for not trawling dndwiki.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh!
The Dandi Wik . . .wait, I already sang that.

[Alienist]

... and thus, all truenamers tend to look pretty much alike....

Ob: What? Both of them?

(Sorry)

[Tyndmyr]

Ob: What? Both of them?

(Sorry)

Yeah...everyone knows about them, but almost nobody seems to actually play them. =)

[DoctorGlock]

D&D wiki has been definitively classified as utter trash... and there are worse thing in the system itself.

Maybe not actual classes, but has anyone looked at the petitioner lately?

Let's get this straight...

You love your god so much that you travel to his very plane, necessitating major power travel spells... gate/wish class... in return, your god rewards you with...

You lose all class features
You lose all special qualities
Your HD become 2
You lose all skills
You lose all feats

In fact, this may be worse than the uplift.

[Prime32]

D&D wiki has been definitively classified as utter trash... and there are worse thing in the system itself.

Maybe not actual classes, but has anyone looked at the petitioner lately?

Let's get this straight...

You love your god so much that you travel to his very plane, necessitating major power travel spells... gate/wish class... in return, your god rewards you with...

You lose all class features
You lose all special qualities
Your HD become 2
You lose all skills
You lose all feats

In fact, this may be worse than the uplift.

...no, being a petitioner is the alternative to being dead. Your soul travels to your god's plane when you die.

[Steward]

To be fair, the SRD explicitly states that petitioners are generally supposed to be NPCs:

The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters. If dead characters who are petitioners are later restored to life (once again becoming player characters), they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.

This is explicitly a template for the servants and hangers-on of a deity.

I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

Couldn't you do that with almost anything though? You don't need a specific class to do any of those things and I'm not even sure this class even does a good job of filling that role unless it can speak on its own without having to expend one of its few skill points. I like your theory though and it's a good idea but the homebrewer made this class almost cartoonishly feeble. Was it really necessary to prevent it from speaking, for example?

[Coidzor]

So... it creates something that looks exactly like a human or other race? Somehow, I got it in my head that they at least kept some of their animalistic features... like the ears or a tail or something. If not, then that's probably how it should be re-fluffed... pun intended.

There's anthropomorphic animal rules already, they're not that great and have had a fair bit of homebrewing done to bring them up to snuff, but even the official stuff is better than that, because if furries really want to bring their furry fandom into D&D it's going to be by playing furry characters not by playing babysitter to useless, stupid creatures that want to die because they're so pathetic.

I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

That is something that should be handled through roleplay, not by showing the players the 1-20 progression of the class. By 10-20th level there's no need to take something like that with one's self, that's what one has servants and lackeys and private demiplanes and airship yachts for.

And, which point are they missing? *again, confused*

You don't need a 20 level long class that's even weaker than commoner to begin with. You can do it just fine with unstatted commoners, statted commoners, aristocrats, or even experts and warriors who refuse to acknowledge their statblocks and do anything.

...no, being a petitioner is the alternative to being dead. Your soul travels to your god's plane when you die.

Eh? Alternative? I thought it was just a result of being dead. And is arguably a fate worse than just ceasing to exist considering all of the mindrape that goes into it. Well, until you find out what the lower planes do with petitioners, anyway.

[NNescio]

I think the point was the fluff.

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

Also, DMPCs are typically considered bad form, but protection quests aren't terribly uncommon (which tends to require a useless DMPC), especially for L1 Characters. I'm in one now in 3.5, and I'm also DM'ing a scripted 4E one (Keep on the Shadowfell). So, at least, by my experience, they happen often enough to require weak DMPCs.

Problem is (in 3.5), even if you don't want your DMPC getting involved in fights, it gets hard to justify to your players why your L1 Commoner doesn't pick up his pitchfork and at least cause a flanking bonus. One look at the Uplifts stats would probably shut the mouths of most players who gripe about how they could use a little help over here.

"She's a useless little bunny, only good for her sex appeal!"

(A cookie to those who can catch the reference without using Google)

But yeah, most of the time you can just use a Hare Hengeyoukai Aristocrat with a level lower than the party average, and at Level 1, well, survivability is pretty much a crapshoot anyway, and you can justify the aristocrat as unwilling to get his hands dirty on trying to flank opponents. Cowardice works too, and for other NPC classes as well.

[missmvicious]

not by playing babysitter to useless, stupid creatures that want to die because they're so pathetic.

Actually... that kind of fantasy exists more often than you may care to admit. Samurai Champloo, Elfin Lied (Nyu version), Blade of the Immortal, Night of the Living Dead (original version) comes to mind right off the cusp. It's the classic damsel in distress motif, actually, but with a magical vein of super helplessness to appeal to a PCs sense of chivalry. But I do see where you're coming from. By the time you hit BAMF levels, guarding a weak damsel type NPC on his/her travels from one town to another while it goes on a quest would probably lose most of its luster.

By 10-20th level there's no need to take something like that with one's self, that's what one has servants and lackeys and private demiplanes and airship yachts for.

Good point.

You don't need a 20 level long class that's even weaker than commoner to begin with. You can do it just fine with unstatted commoners, statted commoners, aristocrats, or even experts and warriors who refuse to acknowledge their statblocks and do anything.

I wish you were right about that. I've played with players and DM'd for players (who were otherwise fun to play with except for the following character flaw) who insist that an NPC can do something the DM doesn't want it to do by scrolling through the DMG and saying, "Yes, he can do that, and I don't see what the problem is. It's right here in the DMG on page (whatever page here) so if he won't do it of his own volition, then I'll roll an Intimidate check. There. 28. What did you get?" When the fluff is, "This creature is so useless, not even the Playground will optimize him/her," then that just cuts down on unpleasant rule invocations like that. And by having stats that you can show players, like the example player above, shuts up the ever-present follow up argument, "Show me where, in the rules, it says he can't do that."

Of course, I should clarify... I wouldn't use the Uplift in a campaign. I just wouldn't. I'm just trying to see this from the perspective of the person who home-brewed it. In the end, Coidzor, you're right. Far as I can tell, you definitely do not need a 1-20 build of the Uplift. 1-5 tops really, because it's only really good for an L1 campaign that has at least one rule-invoker player in it.

[dgnslyr]

As for Rincewind, he might qualify for one of the Apprentice classes from the 3.0 DMG. Not sure why he would ever actually gain any levels, since running away isn't typically an XP-rich activity.

I could see him having a short stack of luck feats, though. Human bonus feat plus two flaws would give him four at first level, which might allow for some flavorful combos.

Well, overcoming an encounter is worth XP, right? And if your DM throws monsters way above CR and expects you to run, getting away successfully should be worth some XP. It just so happens that a lot of his encounters are "successfully escape the big, scary monster," as opposed to the "successfully defeat the big, scary monster" type of encounter most people are accustomed to.

[tyckspoon]

Well, overcoming an encounter is worth XP, right? And if your DM throws monsters way above CR and expects you to run, getting away successfully should be worth some XP. It just so happens that a lot of his encounters are "successfully escape the big, scary monster," as opposed to the "successfully defeat the big, scary monster" type of encounter most people are accustomed to.

He also has in fact performed significant actions of his own (pretty much all of Interesting Times, defeating Coin.. although by D&D standards that one probably falls under the "if you beat this it was probably a complete fluke. Congratulate your players on still being alive but don't give them XP" clause) and if story/chapter completion XP is assumed to be a thing, he has spades of that too.

[Eldan]

Eh? Alternative? I thought it was just a result of being dead. And is arguably a fate worse than just ceasing to exist considering all of the mindrape that goes into it. Well, until you find out what the lower planes do with petitioners, anyway.

As a PC, I'd say chances are pretty good that you'd eventually be promoted to some kind of free-willed and powerful outsider. So, not that bad.