OOTS #827 - The Discussion Thread

[deuxhero]

OK, let's see: Thanh is dead, the resistance is crushed, and RC has the phylactery. Yep, that's a good strip for Friday the 13th.

Can't wait for the OOTS to kick some tail so I can see the good guys get some wins.

Did not notice the date. The Giant thinks of everything!

1.a) Does RC know there's a polymorphed spy? When it was mentioned earlier, it's unclear who would have already known and who wouldn't have. The Goblinoid spy might not have had a chance to pass on that info if he just found out. Besides that, RC may not have any idea WHO the human spy is. Xykon would cheefully kill as many Goblins as necessary to see which one turned human when he died, but RC might decide not to bother ferreting out one spy with no one left to spy for.

IIRC Team Evil has a ring of True Seeing.

[luc258]

Fluffy fun time is over, team evil rules the next arc

[OzOz]

Well, at least Niu got away :(

R.I.P. Thanh and *sob* Eyepatch Girl.

[Aurabolt]

When they shouldn't. They are still at a disadvantage, since Xykon hasn't done anything since he's so scared about his phylactery being destroyed-which wouldn't actually kill him as we learned in Start of Darkness-that he didn't do anything.

Also, how exactly is fighting the Paladin one-on-one a stupid risk? A Cleric of Redcloak's level would be able to defeat a Paladin quite easily, especially that he is very powerful spellcaster and Clerics are known to be at par defensively against Paladins.

[skaddix]

When they shouldn't. They are still at a disadvantage, since Xykon hasn't done anything since he's so scared about his phylactery being destroyed-which wouldn't actually kill him as we learned in Start of Darkness-that he didn't do anything.

Also, how exactly is fighting the Paladin one-on-one a stupid risk? A Cleric of Redcloak's level would be able to defeat a Paladin quite easily, especially that he is very powerful spellcaster and Clerics are known to be at par defensively against Paladins.

it is an unnecessary risk why fight the paladin when your summon already has him captured and can crush him?

Well RC lost to Miko and lost in eye to another Paladin.

which reminds me what level was miko seeing as she owned the oots and crushed RC?

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Poor Thanh. At least he went out with honor and bravely. Redcloak has really learned nothing though. He is still clearly able to kill his own kind/alies without any real regret.

Other than the regret he felt at the situation, apologizing for being unable to raise him and the thanks he gave he didn't have to kill him himself.

Redcloak is still a LE player of a bigger game. What he learned wasn't "I won't sacrifice my own kind for my gods plan for the greater good" it was "I... see. Or feel. Now. What that sacrifice means. I will never sacrifice my own people so carelessly or without concern again."

This is really pretty different to sending waves of hobgoblins to choke up the wheels of the Azure City war machine just because, well, he could and it was quick and stuff without the slightest bit of concern or compassion.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is really pretty different to sending waves of hobgoblins to choke up the wheels of the Azure City war machine just because, well, he could and it was quick and stuff without the slightest bit of concern or compassion.

You know who it's not that different for? The goblins who end up dead to further Redcloak's goals. I bet they accept with equanimity the apologies he now delivers to their corpses.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Also, how exactly is fighting the Paladin one-on-one a stupid risk? A Cleric of Redcloak's level would be able to defeat a Paladin quite easily, especially that he is very powerful spellcaster and Clerics are known to be at par defensively against Paladins.

That's V with three epic level souls kind of thinking.

Ok, maybe not quite like that. Redcloak is on a secret mission, with one objective, which he has completed. What is to be gained from personally fighting the head of the resistance? What is to be gained from being taunted into it?

Plus Redcloak probably has a better idea of his personal situation there (spells cast and those still available, duration left on summons, the amount of time he can safely spend in the resistance base as opposed to being somewhere else, how good his defensive rating is, considering he doesn't wear armor, is etc).

Therefore even if the chance of Thanh achieving something, anything, are only 10% that could be seen as a stupid risk when there is absolutely no reason to allow the circumstances for that 10% to ever become possible.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

Left out of my post before - Thanh, I liked you a lot. You will be missed.

I'm happy to see Niu made it out. Thanh wont be forgotten.

And Redcloak, truly impressive. I love the three teams The Giant has created and the dynamics in them. The OotS goes without saying.

The new Linear Guild - hasn't done much yet, but I love the potential.

And Team Evil, how it has grown. Xykon, MitD, Tsukiko and Redcloak. I always enjoy seeing them, and it really looks like Redcloak is on the up and up.

You know who it's not that different for? The goblins who end up dead to further Redcloak's goals. I bet they accept with equanimity the apologies he now delivers to their corpses.

I don't think I said that.

Although they probably would, from what we have seen the them so far.

And that wasn't the comment. It was "Redcloak hasn't changed much if he is still willing to sacrifice his kind". Which was never the change.

But by that thinking every general ever who has committed troops knowing the chances of some, maybe even all, dying but who only does so when necessary and while being affected by the sacrifice is no different from a general wastefully throwing away lives without a care in the world.

Redcloak used to be the latter. Now he is the former.

I don't think he wants to hide the fact that his holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery, since it is widely known ever since this link story arc.
With Ochuls escape it's probably save to assume every enemy of team evil knows of the phylactery.

It wont happen, but for some reason I imagine Redcloak sitting Xykon down in front of the TiVo, showing him an image of his phylactery... somewhere (around the neck of the Dark One maybe?).

And telling him it is in a pretty safe place, as long as nothing happens to Redcloak, so Xykon should probably make an effort to keep him alive and happy.

If the Resistance just got completely crushed for good, as insinuated by Than, then I doubt Redcloak is going to hide the phylactery any longer to delay their departure. The Elven insurgents are, for all appearances, dead and any organized threat from the resistance is pacified. There isn't much else to wrap up.

I figured there were more resistance hide-outs, but its rather evident I'm wrong.

If I was Redcloak I would actually want to move on as quickly as possible, even if I wanted the city to be as sound and secure as possible, based on a couple of things:

A. The straining of the relationship with Xykon. Longer delays mean more things that could crop up that could strain the relationship more. If one must transport a potentially ticking time bomb best get it to its destination as quickly as possible.
B. Tsukiko. If Redcloak knows Xykon has her looking into the ritual, well, best not to let her make to much headway with that.

Ultimately having a stable city for some of goblin kind is great, but far better to make the changes necessary to improve the lot of all goblin kind as quickly as possible and before anything new pops up to scuttle the plan. With the Resistance gone the main thorn in the cities side is dealt with, so on to the next Gate!

[ti'esar]

I don't think I said that.

Although they probably would, from what we have seen the them so far.

And that wasn't the comment. It was "Redcloak hasn't changed much if he is still willing to sacrifice his kind". Which was never the change.

But by that thinking every general ever who has committed troops knowing the chances of some, maybe even all, dying but who only does so when necessary and while being affected by the sacrifice is no different from a general wastefully throwing away lives without a care in the world.

Redcloak used to be the latter. Now he is the former. It is a major difference.

I agree with this. Yes, he still sacrificed one goblin. But pre-siege of Azure City, I don't think he would have gone to the trouble of making sure his attack force consisted solely of summoned fiends.

I do think it's still a significant and morally questionable character moment - given that the death of the Resistance mini-arc seems primarily meant to set up Redcloak as a major villain in his own right, it's important that we have both his dangerousness and his LE alignment emphasized. But I don't think it can really be seen as a sign that his "epiphany" meant nothing.

As for the comic itself... I actually find it less bleak then the previous two. The Resistance is finished, but Niu lived, and Thanh died a hero's death that adds him to the list of Sapphire Guard members in OOTS that represent what paladins should be - something I never would have expected from his first appearance. RIP. And meanwhile, it looks like those speculating that Redcloak is up to something here knew what they were talking about after all...

On a lighter note, I find myself somehow unsurprised at denizens of the Lower Planes having a fondness for Apple products.

[Dancing Cthulhu]

I agree with this. Yes, he still sacrificed one goblin. But pre-siege of Azure City, I don't think he would have gone to the trouble of making sure his attack force consisted solely of summoned fiends.

I do think it's still a significant and morally questionable character moment - given that the death of the Resistance mini-arc seems primarily meant to set up Redcloak as a major villain in his own right, it's important that we have both his dangerousness and his LE alignment emphasized. But I don't think it can really be seen as a sign that his "epiphany" meant nothing.

I agree with that.

[EccentricFellow]

I KNEW that iPads were evil!

[ti'esar]

I would note that there is still a difference between knowing that you'll lose some troops to the vagaries of war, and deliberately sacrificing them. But it's really besides the point.

[Nohar]

True Resurrection is instantaneous, takes away some of Xykon's advantages over RC (e.g. immunity to implosion), and includes some minor debuffs to the target.

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time, which is a whole 100 rounds (since 1 round = 6 seconds). I don't completly dismiss your hypothesis, but I can't see Redcloak casting such spell in all impunity on Xykon, when he can use others spells at his advantage. No, really, True Resurrection would be a death sentence to Redcloak. Plus, he can't instant-cast it, even with the epic-level meta-magic gift "Instant cast" (this gift only works for spells which are normally cast in one round), though I'm not really familiar with D&D rules when it comes to epic level and such things, so I may be wrong (and in any case, he would need some more levels).

So... Yeah, unless Xykon is incapacipated, Redcloak won't have the opportunity to use that spell. And even if Redcloak had 100 free rounds against Xykon, I can bet he would use these to cast others spells or do others actions which could end Xykon permanently.

[Doug Lampert]

However, it may also be that TRUE Resurrection, when used offensively, is not subject to the will of the target (plus or minus a save.) It depends on how the mechanism of the target's will works.

It works because ALL magic to return creatures from the dead give the target knowledge of the casting cleric's name, god, and alignment and work only with the target's agreement.

There's no exception even suggested for your imaginary "offensive" use of the spell.

[t209]

At least team evil is showing signs of splitting up or rivalry starscream thingy.
Would Niuh go Rambo or go down on glory charge after sending bad news?

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What if she's pregnant with her secret husband's child, Thanh jr.? That could be more tragic.

[PallElendro]

Sweet! I'm getting an iPad!

It's cuz Apple users go to hell, right?
It's what I heard.

[Kodan]

I read this post up to like, the 5th page and felt I needed to register and post regarding the RedCloak speculation

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I think that some of you guy are overcomplicating things.
Since O'Chuul escaped capture, and got the Phylactery lost, by now the bad guys would assume he met up with the other Paladins who escaped, and would have told them the Phylactery is gone, so they would be stuck in the city.

Isn't it possible that Redclock ISN'T actually planning anything? There are 2 possibilities here, not including the speculation.

1) He and Xyclon, or just he himself cooked up this plan to recover the Phylactery secretly. That way, he could present it to Xyclon and the fact the Phylactery has been recovered would be kept secret, and keep the good guys on edge.

2) He actually IS planning on keeping it secret from everyone, including Xyclon, but not to betray him or anything. By keeping it secret, the Phylactery remains safe from everyone. Who knows, Xyclon might tamper with the Phylactery to make it easier to find next time, thus making it vulnerable.

Edit: tl;dr The longer the amulet stays secret by being "missing", the longer it remains safe, even in plain sight.

[T.G. Oskar]

I guess someone else has mentioned this (not just now, but ever since the first time Redcloak summoned a Periodic Table Elemental), so excuses if I sound so repetitive, but this is just beyond hilarious:

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If it weren't for hir specialization, V would have had the ultimate weapon against Redcloak.

Major Creation. The very existence of the Osmium Elemental BEGS for Anti-Osmium, which is the ancient weapon of the Optimizers for dealing catgirl-genocide levels of damage.

And it's a 5th level spell, to boot. Of course, there's that pesky 10 minute timer, but add a dollop of Quintessence (or Ranch!) on it, and whenever that Osmium Elemental gets summoned (or worse, called!) again...

Having said that, I guess Redcloak either made a mistake or took a level in Bard, because letting someone live and not checking all corpses seems a bit off. But, if Niu ends up being some sort of an avenger, she'll undoubtedly make a mistake that Redcloak will capitalize, and since being the last of the old Resistance probably implies that she'll rebuild one (after informing the remaining fleet of the loss), that would be a pretty harsh loss.

But of course, what else is to expect. There will be one more strip, probably, where Niu is killed unceremoniously by Redcloak in mid-Sending just for the heck of it (expediently, and for maximum effectiveness).

[Ravian]

Redcloak better have a pretty foolproof plan, or he's going to find himself replaced by Tsukiko permanently. He can't try to bargain with Xykon, since at this point he is largely expendable, powerful but expendable. My guess is that perhaps he seals the phyalactery in an anti-magic zone, then try to pass off a fake as the real one. That way when Xykon is destroyed he can be contained. (Are we even sure a lich's regeneration can function in an anti-magic zone?) Of course even this leaves them with a lich that could escape at the slightest mistake, not to mention Tsukiko and the MITD would still be major problems for RC in his betrayal.

[ti'esar]

Incidentally, is it just me, or is it starting to seem like having an awesome mustache is a death sentence in OOTS? Shojo, the Cliffport Chief of Police, and now Thanh - is this mere coincidence?

[multilis]

Oh no! There are some goblins killed by resistance! We must rez one of them to find out what happened!

What... they stole X's phylactery?!?! The resistance has it now!? They probably sent to to the elves! (hee hee hee)

[It can now be destroyed when useful and someone else takes the blame]


In his mind, Redcloak justifies himself to his brother who was killed by X. Just as black dragon wanted to avenge her son...

[rewinn]

There's no exception even suggested for your imaginary "offensive" use of the spell.

Some say "imaginary", others would say "imaginative", and thank you for the complement!

Speaking of which, Redcloak is showing an awful lot of creativity (cf. elementals). There are some who have underestimated his ability to solve problems, and they are mostly dead or worse (...Start of Darkness anyone?)

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time

I misread, or was mislead by, a wiki somewhere. How could a wiki be mistaken?

---
Let me state for the record that the notion of RC handing Xykon a fake phylactery strikes me as absurd.
1. X has trusted RC with it all along, and nothing has changed his reasons for doing so.
2. RC has no way of knowing whether X has bugged the phylactery with something RC can't replicate in a fake.
3. The penalty for getting caught is extreme - not merely whatever death X chooses to deal however slowly X chooses to deal it, but also the collapse of the Dark One's plan.
4. The usefulness of fakery seems low. When RC wants to do something dirty with the phylactery, all he has to do is plan ahead a little bit, then Word Of Recall back to his sanctuary where he's secreted a Teleport thingamabob to whereever the phylactery-breaking-thingy may be.

Redcloak's plan is sure to have one element at least: it will be very very wise. Relying on X not to notice a fake phylactery seems unwise.

[Dracarot]

Truly only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable.

Rest in Peace Thanh.

[FerhagoRosewood]

NOOO!

My favorite unnamed character, the girl with the eyepatch, is dead!

RIP.

T_T

[Geordnet]

There goes my favorite minor character.


R.I.P. Thanh (#511-#827)

[Larae]

Thahn! I was just getting attached to you!

Man, the strip has just been blowing me away lately. Now seems like as good a time to register as any.

Incidentally, is it just me, or is it starting to seem like having an awesome mustache is a death sentence in OOTS? Shojo, the Cliffport Chief of Police, and now Thanh - is this mere coincidence?

Whoa, you're right! Not to mention Kubota. Mustaches must be highly symbolic of leadership, and help to identify their wearers as a threat.

[LtNOWIS]

Might I introduce you to the elf commander? Or heck, to almost fully half of the last strip discussion thread?

Not that I'm gonna try to stir up that hornet's nest again.... Just pointing out.

Animal cruelty is also a quick way to earn hatred for a character.

[Chess Tyrant]

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time

Actually, I think it's a one-minute casting time.

[Nabirius]

Man I'm really not sure how to feel on this one. I've always felt that Redcloak was a tragic and even semi-heroic sort of villain. When I think about it from the light that he thinks the resistance was to blame for the massacre at the Goblin's barbeque, I can understand why he was so cold. But it just strikes me as out of character that Redcloak would let any of his goblins die. Maybe it will make more sense later.