Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

Now the issue: What is the proper weapon to give to Termagaunts? Leaving them with fleshborers allows for them to be used as Tervigon spawns, but does it make sense to equip Termagaunts that actually start on the table with costlier weapons? Devourers, for instance? Or should I just go with fleshborers instead?

Does he have Tervigons? Is Tervigon spawning an option? Fleshborers are good for when you have 5 Tervigons, or, at the very least, when you need to spam three squads of 10 so you can grab three Tervigons and you need to keep everything cheap.

But, you are right, the only other decent option is the Devourer. Yes, AP- is bad. But you're firing triple the shots (at 'Assault' too) at 18" which means you're putting out more firepower than Marines. If you aren't exploiting the Codex for five Tervigons, then a squad with Devourers is a solid Infantry block that sits home and Scores.

Devourers or Fleshborers. There are no other choices.

[Wraith]

As I have always understood Termagaunts (and if you'll forgive a little bit of hyperbole).....

As a Troops choice, they're not as good as Genestealers. You can spend more points on them, give them extra weapons and biomorphs (even 'wargear', in the days before they were biomorphs) and then they'll be as expensive as Genestealers..... But still not as good.

As such, there are only 2 good ways to use Termagaunts: the first is "Lots", as they die in droves but can put out a huge number of shots anyway, which is probably the best way to deal with good armour saves (ie: make them roll it a whole heap of times).
The second is "Cheap" because that, rather usefully, helps you achieve "Lots".

[Ceridan]

Ok its looks like its all over the place. I am used to seeing very spammy lists with multiple units of the same thing but that doesnt necessarily mean your list wont work.

What models do you currently have? Have you had any practise games if you already own them?

I would change a few things in your current set up anyway.

-Drop all the Infernus Pistols, they are really expensive for a single 6 inch shot. You can have heaps of meltas which are cheaper and better.
-Drop the deathwind Missile Launcher and the powerfist. If 5 guys are assaulted they are going to be killed especially if you are using them as suicide sternguard which it seems to be what you are doing.
-Make the scout squad one unit, you can always combat squad it later if you need them to capture more points.

By dropping these things you have more points and can afford another unit of scouts or something else. Bodies over equipment every time. The main thing though is to have practise games. Even if you have a subpar list as long as you know how it works you can win. That is why armies like tau or orks can still win at tournaments because the player is very familiar with them.

If you want to win for sure I would take an army something like this. It has a heap of models and the power to take down anything the enemy has.

-Librarian - 100pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
1990pts

Of course having an army list like this would cost about $1000 (Aus).

WYSIWYG means the army you proposed is beyond my doing given the time frame and the cost. Any other suggestions? I do have Grey Knights and Space Wolves as fall backs if you have any thoughts there.

[Timberwolf]

Alright my fellow 40k addicts, there is a 2000pt tournament on the 18th. The tournament is three rounds, each round featuring one of the three missions from the main rule book. So I’m looking for feedback on the list I’m working on.

Blood Angels

Spoiler

Show

HQ Mephiston 250 Hard to go wrong really
EL Sanguinary Priests (x3) 240pts

• Infernus Pistol, Power Weapon

Not too sure where all of these are going, I guess one with a scout squad ? perhaps a bit wasted with all the toys.
EL Furioso Dreadnought 165pts

• Heavy Flamer, Magna-Grapple, Extra Armour

Yes, but lose the extra armour, this goes in the gunship right ?
EL Sternguard Squad (5 Astartes) 230pts

• x5 Combi-Melta, x1 Power Fist
• Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher

Yes, but needs 10 of them I feel. The Drop pod... probably won't survive to use the Deathwind - cheap kill point.
TR Scout Squads (5 Scouts) 100pts

• x4 Sniper Rifles, x1 Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

Yes
TR Scout Squads (5 Scouts) 100pts

• x4 Sniper Rifles, x1 Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

TR Assault Squad (10 Astartes) 500pts

• x1 Infernus Pistol, x1 Power Fist, x2 Melta guns, No Jump Packs
• Land Raider Crusader, Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour

Umm. Doesn't really fit for my money.
TR Tactical Squad (10 Astartes) 170pts

• x1 Missile Launcher, x1 Flamer

Try to find the points for a plasma gun if you can
HS Stormraven Gunship 245pts

• Twin-Multi-Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Extra Armour

Yes, but maybe lose the extra armour ? Tough one to call as this thing relies on its mobility.
Total: 2000pts

I'd be tempted to trade the Assault marines for Death Company so I could take a Death Company Dread myself (cheaper as it laughs at extra armour and more attacks). That would also remove the need for one of those Sanguinary priests. I do feel that a plasma gun will serve you better than the flamer on the Tac squad. I'd really be tempted to lose that Tac squad for another squad of scouts, maybe use the extra points to beef up those squads because more shots = more hits and more hits = more rends.

Another thing to consider is that you will lose that gunship first. It's only AV 12. Stormravens work really well with 2 or more and even then, there's a reason I use 3. At least one will drop its cargo where its needed.

Anyway, hope that's helpful.

[Cheesegear]

As a Troops choice, they're not as good as Genestealers.

lolwat. Genestealers are bad. Really, really, really bad. Termagants are currently the best Troops in the 'dex - or second best after Warriors, depends on who you ask.

The only - only - time Genestealers are any good is when they Outflank. And now that Coteaz is in the game, Genestealers have turned to junk.

You can spend more points on them, give them extra weapons and biomorphs (even 'wargear', in the days before they were biomorphs) and then they'll be as expensive as Genestealers..... But still not as good.

The only upgrade Termagants ever take are Devourers. And it's still cheaper than Genestealers. If you want to upgrade past Devourers, stop, and get a Tervigon instead. Otherwise scrap your Termagants for Warriors.

As such, there are only 2 good ways to use Termagaunts: the first is "Lots", as they die in droves but can put out a huge number of shots anyway, which is probably the best way to deal with good armour saves (ie: make them roll it a whole heap of times).
The second is "Cheap" because that, rather usefully, helps you achieve "Lots".

This is flawed. Primarily because I think you're running off the idea that Genestealers are any good.

The first is 'lots'. They don't die in droves because they're in cover thanks to actually being in cover or being babysat by a Venomthrope. At 10 points each with the proper upgrade, you can output 48 shots at S4 for 160 points (what Space Marines are paying for a Plaserback squad - roughly) at 18" range which means they'll be out-firefighting Marines.

Without the good weapon upgrade, for the same points, you put out 32 shots (separated into two squads of 16, hopefully) at only 12" range, which is the range in which you get Assaulted or even Flamer'd to death, or you get blown apart by Rapid Fire.

The second is 'cheap', because it helps you spam Tervigons. That's it. Not because it puts more models on the board. But because you can spam Scoring MCs which directly equals more free (cheap) Termagants.

[Winterwind]

Alright, thanks! Sounds like I'll go with Devourers, then.

What about Stranglewebs? It sounds like something that one might as well get for the rare occasion where it may come in handy, as it doesn't really cost much.

[Wraith]

The only - only - time Genestealers are any good is when they Outflank. And now that Coteaz is in the game, Genestealers have turned to junk.

You'd possibly be amazed at how many armies don't contain Coteaz.

Seriously though, he doesn't play any part in my local metagame (*I* am the only person I know who plays Grey Knights, and I play Pure Marines) but tanks throwing around Pie Plates in the first turn really does. Outflank with Rending weapons is great.

The only upgrade Termagants ever take are Devourers. And it's still cheaper than Genestealers. If you want to upgrade past Devourers, stop, and get a Tervigon instead. Otherwise scrap your Termagants for Warriors.

Termagaunt + Devourer = 10 points (each)
Termagaunt + Devourer + Adrenal Glands + Toxin Sacs + 1/10th of a Strangelweb = 13 points (each)

But Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs and Strangelwebs aren't worth taking, so the cheaper option is the better one. Isn't that what I just said?

The first is 'lots'. They don't die in droves because they're in cover thanks to actually being in cover or being babysat by a Venomthrope..

So, to use your own words, we're playing Schrödinger's Army now?
You guarantee that you're ALWAYS going to have a cover save from everything, at all times? No, of course not.
Anything with a 6+ Save needs more bodies, if only for that 1 turn out of 6 where they're unable to hide from something. I don't think that's contestable.

Tervigons

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

Similarly, "lots" doesn't just apply to models on the table, it applies to models in his collection. And if he does take the advice of lots of Tervigons (and he certainly should, don't get me wrong) then he's going to need lots of proxies for when they're churning out up to 6x 3d6 plebs per turn, and even amongst 40k players I don't know many folk who have enough time and money to collect 60+ Termagaunts for the list and another 40-ish that they may or may not need later.
Building them with Flesh Borers might not be as great, but certainly in the short term for a newbie to get used to it might be a good idea. *shrugs*

[Squark]

Let's back up a moment here. Let's consider a few things

1) How much of this depends on your metagame?
Let's see... The aforementioned outflank strategy is heavily dependent on how common Coteaz and other countermeasures to outflanking exist. Wraith's meta is low on them; Cheesegear's less so, evidently.
Next, Cover saves. This depends A LOT on how many ruins you have access to, and how many of them you use. Some people like to make the board look like a bombed out city, while others prefer open fields with a few scattered hills and the occasional ruin acting as an objective place. And then, of course, there's everything in between. Let's just say that in some metagames, Termagaunts should have a cover save 90% of the time if you're doing it right (against normal shooting attacks, that is), and in some metas cover is incredibly scarce, and of course there are millions of examples in between.

2) Spamming Tervigons and Devourers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to take Tervigons, you need to take some 'gaunts, too, correct? I don't see why giving the small squad you need to take Tervigons some devourers is a bad idea. Granted, the dead gaunts from this squad can't be put back onto the field as newly spawned termagaunts (if you run low on the ones you intended to use for your Tervigons), but you can't have everything.

EDIT: Just because the title of the thread involves punching people in the head, doesn't mean we have to get into a shouting match this early in the thread.

[Cheesegear]

What about Stranglewebs? It sounds like something that one might as well get for the rare occasion where it may come in handy, as it doesn't really cost much.

I wouldn't. Stranglewebs cost as much as two more Termagants. Or, one more Termagant with Devourer. If your game is heavy with Marines (T4, 3+ save) the Strangleweb is needing 6s To Wound, and then the Marines get a save anyway. If you play against Guardian-Eldar or Imperial Guard a lot, then maybe. But only maybe. Like I said, I wouldn't bother with the Strangleweb, with Shooty-Gants, you don't ever want to be close enough to actually use the Template weapon anyway.

Outflank with Rending weapons is great.

Enter Tyranid Warriors who can do it too with the right HQ choice. Or just use the Mycetic Spore.

Termagaunt + Devourer + Adrenal Glands + Toxin Sacs + 1/10th of a Strangelweb = 13 points (each)

So, even at their most expensive, a Termagant is still not as expensive as a non-upgraded Genestealer? Proved yourself wrong there.

So, to use your own words, we're playing Schrödinger's Army now?
You guarantee that you're ALWAYS going to have a cover save from everything, at all times? No, of course not.

Yes. With the Venomthrope. It's not Schrodinger's Army when I specifically include things. And if you're playing Swarm 'Nids, then if you don't take Venomthropes, you're doing it wrong.

Frankly, if you don't have your big Scoring unit of Termagants with Devourers in cover on your objective, you're doing it wrong again. In this particular case, at least one unit of Termagants, will always have a cover save, unless you're playing on the grass field. But Venomthropes.

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

You seem to have completely misread what I said.

Take as many Termagants with Devourers as you can.
If you plan on taking Tervigons, take the minimum Termagants that you can (when it comes to list-building). If you don't plan on taking Tervigons, spend the spare points on more Termagants.

But, yes. Taking Tervigons is amazing. But, from what I've read from Winterwind, cash isn't in abundance, so every unit needs to be able to stand on it's on feet which is where Devourers come in.

Next, Cover saves. This depends A LOT on how many ruins you have access to, and how many of them you use. Some people like to make the board look like a bombed out city, while others prefer open fields with a few scattered hills and the occasional ruin acting as an objective place.

The rules suggest 25% of the board should be covered in terrain. Anything less than that favours particular armies, and any board with more than 50% or so makes the game nearly unplayable (IMO).

If you're at home, use pieces of paper to indicate area terrain, or put some books on the table for hills, etc. There are also dozens - if not hundreds - of tutorials around of how to make terrain out of what is otherwise garbage. Making chest-high walls out of cardboard is the easiest thing in the world. Or, go into a garden and just pick up a few rocks and superglue them into a straight line.

Termagaunts should have a cover save 90% of the time if you're doing it right (against normal shooting attacks, that is), and in some metas cover is incredibly scarce, and of course there are millions of examples in between.

With a Venomthrope (brought up several times now, I'm not changing this to suit my argument, hence not Schrodinger's Army), Termagants have a Cover Save 100% of the time, even on a grass field.

[lord_khaine]

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

What?
Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

With a Venomthrope (brought up several times now, I'm not changing this to suit my argument, hence not Schrodinger's Army), Termagants have a Cover Save 100% of the time, even on a grass field.

But isnt that only a 5+ save?
And isnt those Vernomthropes both taking vital elite slots, while at the same time being soft T4 models who are just begging for a couple of krak missiles?

[Cheesegear]

Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

If the Tervigon has the right upgrades, yes. Which it should. Then it starts using its Psykery.

And isnt those Vernomthropes both taking vital elite slots, while at the same time being soft T4 models who are just begging for a couple of krak missiles?

Sort of, and yes.
Elite slots are only vital to those people who can't convert. The most useful things in the 'dex right now are Harpies with HVCs (170+ Points ) and Tyrannofii with Rupture Cannons (265+ Points ).
Try and keep your Venomthropes out of LoS somehow. Their Cloud still works.


...I just don't like talking about the Tyranid Codex, even the 'good' things in it are still pretty bad.

[Ninjaman]

So i was wondering:
Devour gants, don't they just get shot?
Harpies, aren't much of the reason not to use carnifex that they die too easily, these die like 2 times as fast, for the same points.

[Cheesegear]

Devour gants, don't they just get shot?

Yes. Hence the Venomthropes or putting them in actual cover. Also, you can have lots of them since they're only ten points apiece. Like I've already mentioned, the 3 shots at 18" range goes a long way (pun unintended). So, while they do get shot at, the thing is, they can shoot back.

Harpies, aren't much of the reason not to use carnifex that they die too easily, these die like 2 times as fast, for the same points.

Harpies don't take Tyrannofex slots. It's kind of like telling a Space Marine player not to take TLAC Dreadnoughts because Autolas Predators don't die as easily. You can have both. Carnifii with HVCs are only a stopgap for Tyrannofii, and once you learn to convert, ditch all your Carnifii for Tyrannofii.

Harpies can also fly to get better angles for their HVC because Emperor knows -1 to the damage table needs all the help it can get.

[Ninjaman]

Yes. Hence the Venomthropes or putting them in actual cover. Also, you can have lots of them since they're only ten points apiece. Like I've already mentioned, the 3 shots at 18" range goes a long way (pun unintended). So, while they do get shot at, the thing is, they can shoot back.

But even in cover termagants tend to die a lot, these die twice as quickly.

Harpies don't take Tyrannofex slots. It's kind of like telling a Space Marine player not to take TLAC Dreadnoughts because Autolas Predators don't die as easily. You can have both. Carnifii with HVCs are only a stopgap for Tyrannofii, and once you learn to convert, ditch all your Carnifii for Tyrannofii.

Harpies can also fly to get better angles for their HVC because Emperor knows -1 to the damage table needs all the help it can get.

You don't always fill all 3 heavy slots. And the problem with the harpy is that it gets ID'd by S10 weapons, get torn through by autocannons, and even die easily to small arms fire, and getting cover will be hard without limiting firepower quite a bit. Also what is so great about venom cannons?

[Ricky S]

WYSIWYG means the army you proposed is beyond my doing given the time frame and the cost. Any other suggestions? I do have Grey Knights and Space Wolves as fall backs if you have any thoughts there.

Lol dude I wasnt seriously suggesting that you go out and buy an army like that. It was just an example of what tournament armies look like. They are just spamming the same unit multiple times.

The main thing for tournament play is to make sure you know how your army works. Practise games are essential to give you an idea on how everything operates and the limitations of your army and units. Best of luck to you.

[Wraith]

So, even at their most expensive, a Termagant is still not as expensive as a non-upgraded Genestealer? Proved yourself wrong there.

Yes, I suppose I let hyperbole get the better of me. Touché, sir.

Yes. With the Venomthrope. It's not Schrodinger's Army when I specifically include things. And if you're playing Swarm 'Nids, then if you don't take Venomthropes, you're doing it wrong.

Template Weapons. Dragonfire Rounds. A healthy selection of IG Tanks. One lucky Krak Missile, as lord_khaine said. And - dare I say it? - Marker Lights.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't give Termagaunts a Cover Save, but I am arguing that you should be prepared for when they inevitably don't have it.

You seem to have completely misread what I said.

[....]

But, yes. Taking Tervigons is amazing. But, from what I've read from Winterwind, cash isn't in abundance, so every unit needs to be able to stand on it's on feet which is where Devourers come in.

I think this is where we've crossed wires. You're talking about taking the best Troops Unit choice, I'm mostly talking about building models so that they'll remain relevant for as long as possible for the new player.

In principle, yes I agree - Lots of Termagaunts hiding in the shadow of a Venomthropw or Tervigon (preferably both) are about the best you can hope for in 'Nids. I disagree that Genestealers fall so low as 'junk' for the same reasons that Squark mentioned and a couple of others, but that's hardly a point worth arguing extensively over.

What?
Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

Yes, but 1) you have to pay extra for those upgrades, and 2) the Termagaunts will still spawn with Flesh Borers and you cannot alter that. Making models with Devourers - as I briefly mentioned above - is not WYSIWYG. Which is why I was also advocating keeping back a stash of 'unarmed' Termagaunts for such a purpose.

Also, the fully equipped Tervigon and Venomthrope that you 'need' to make Termagaunts a good unit, costs well over 200pts in addition to the unit. A cynic could say that your 20-man unit now costs an average of 20-25pts per model.
Synergy is one thing, but I'm not a big fan of any unit where you have to go "They're really good.... So long as you spend a further 10% of you army list on other units to back them up". Especially when the same units could also apply the same bonuses to other 'not very good' units.

...I just don't like talking about the Tyranid Codex, even the 'good' things in it are still pretty bad.

Amen.

[Ninjaman]

Also, the fully equipped Tervigon and Venomthrope that you 'need' to make Termagaunts a good unit, costs well over 200pts in addition to the unit.

A tervigon with catalyst toxin sacs and adranal glands is 195 points. This is what you need.

[Cheesegear]

You don't always fill all 3 heavy slots.

You should try. Most armies that min-max can generally fill 3 of every slot (except HQ, obviously, and including Troops) by ~1500 points. Give or take.

And the problem with the harpy is that it gets ID'd by S10 weapons

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

get torn through by autocannons

So does everything in the Tyranid Codex.

Also what is so great about venom cannons?

They're S9 at range. And you're Tyranids. You need it.

Synergy is one thing, but I'm not a big fan of any unit where you have to go "They're really good.... So long as you spend a further 10% of you army list on other units to back them up". Especially when the same units could also apply the same bonuses to other 'not very good' units.

And since around half of the Codex works like that, the Codex is...Not good.

[Winterwind]

2) Spamming Tervigons and Devourers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to take Tervigons, you need to take some 'gaunts, too, correct? I don't see why giving the small squad you need to take Tervigons some devourers is a bad idea. Granted, the dead gaunts from this squad can't be put back onto the field as newly spawned termagaunts (if you run low on the ones you intended to use for your Tervigons), but you can't have everything.

This right here was pretty much my thought, too.

No, that friend of mine doesn't have Tervigons (yet). I intend to convert one for him sooner or later, but by the time I do, I'd probably give him additional Termagaunts anyway.

Also, it seems I got lucky and the pack I got includes sixteen instead of the usual twelve Termagaunts by accident. The additional four don't have special weapons and no bases, but I have enough spare bases lying around. So I guess those four shall become the first of a future Tervigon's fleshborer spawn.

Also what is so great about venom cannons?

Being able to deal with fair amounts of tanks, quickly and without having to spend multiple rounds to close in, and without having to rely solely on suicide units (which in this context means Zoanthropes coming down in Spores), is just about the first, foremost, and most pressing necessity as the game moves to harder levels. At the very most casual extreme, one usually doesn't see many tanks; as the going gets tougher though, if you can't deal well with tanks, you will drown. And venom cannons, in spite of their negative modifier on the vehicle damage table, are still just about the only thing Tyranids have that has a decent range and also the Strength to penetrate heavier armours. The only other thing is Tyrannofexes, which is why Cheesegear said that all these other options were merely stopgaps for those.

[Ninjaman]

You should try. Most armies that min-max can generally fill 3 of every slot (except HQ, obviously, and including Troops) by ~1500 points. Give or take.

5 tervigons
30 termagants
6 hive guard
2 Tyrannofex is way above 1500. I think it is even above 2000.

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

And railguns. Which isn't much of a problem but my most common enemy is tau.

So does everything in the Tyranid Codex.

But compared to carnifexes these wound on 2's instead of 3's and ignores your save.

They're S9 at range. And you're Tyranids. You need it.

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?

@Winter wind:

Hive guard? Range 24 isn't awesome, but being able to move before fireing somewhat makes up for that. And being able to shoot out of LOS is cool.

[Renegade Paladin]

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?

You know, I'm sick of hearing this. Having a blast does not automatically make a weapon bad against tanks; it makes it good against infantry. This does not mean you shouldn't shoot something with a blast against a tank if it has high enough S to hurt the tank.

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles.

[Timberwolf]

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles.

Entirely agreed. If there's one weapon I fear above all for my gunships, its... the lascannon, hardly surprising. Second is the Assault cannon as it just has my number. A close joint third though are Demolisher shots, Battle Cannon shots and Manticore shots. A gunship / tank is a big target and those things tend to hit.

[Renegade Paladin]

Entirely agreed. If there's one weapon I fear above all for my gunships, its... the lascannon, hardly surprising. Second is the Assault cannon as it just has my number. A close joint third though are Demolisher shots, Battle Cannon shots and Manticore shots. A gunship / tank is a big target and those things tend to hit.

Rolling twice and taking highest for armor penetration doesn't hurt either. Ordnance has that rule for a reason.

[Ninjaman]

You know, I'm sick of hearing this. Having a blast does not automatically make a weapon bad against tanks; it makes it good against infantry. This does not mean you shouldn't shoot something with a blast against a tank if it has high enough S to hurt the tank.

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles.

But isn't that good, also the venom cannon get's -1 on the dammage chart.

Rolling twice and taking highest for armor penetration doesn't hurt either. Ordnance has that rule for a reason.

It isn't ordnance, which is pretty much the reason the others were good at it.

[Renegade Paladin]

But isn't that good, also the venom cannon get's -1 on the dammage chart.

When you're playing Tyranids, you should take what you can get. The last time I played against a Tyranid army, I suffered precisely one casualty because he couldn't deal with tanks outside of assault. AP- or not, a penetrating hit is a penetrating hit.

[Cheesegear]

[List]is way above 1500. I think it is even above 2000.

...Huh. Well, just another things that makes Tyranids bad, since most other armies are doing it.

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?

What? Venom Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons are both AP4. Perfectly fine against Infantry.

^ And see Renegade Paladin's post. The game is almost entirely about Fast vehicles dominating the meta-game at this point. Feel free to run around trying to catch Fast vechiles running around the board. Sure, you can probably get them in Assault if enough of your critters have Fleet, but, most of the time if your opponent knows what they're doing (and I have seen it more than once), you'll never Assault his vehicles without a lot of hard work.

See; Hammernators being bad.

[Timberwolf]

When you're playing Tyranids, you should take what you can get. The last time I played against a Tyranid army, I suffered precisely one casualty because he couldn't deal with tanks outside of assault. AP- or not, a penetrating hit is a penetrating hit.

Yep, even if you only stun it, that's a turn it's doing nothing and your carnifex or Flyrant or something else nasty can get a bit closer. Venom cannons are pretty useful if you don't want Zoanthropes / don't have a Tyrannofex.

[lord_khaine]

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

You should proberly add Doom Scythes to that list, as soon as the Necron players get startet on coverting Fire Prisms

[evisiron]

I had another couple of ideas for the Doubles Tournament discussed in the previous thread. What do you think of these:

Orks

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Each 750 Ork forces takes a Warboss on a Bike and one large unit of biker Nobs. Normally I wouldn't go near a biker nob list, but with the chance to give one unit each a special rule, each unit can take Stealth. This means they will have a 3+ cover save all of the time, and a 2+ cover save when they turbo boost.

The main drawback is that the missions are objective heavy, and unless we table people there is little chance to be where we need to be to actual pull in the wins.

Space Wolves and Space Marines

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Or more specifically, Thunderwolves and Shrike. We still have to put this to paper, but the general idea is take a unit of thunderwolves and a wolf mounted HQ or two and have them infiltrate with Shrike. They can split up immediately and first turn assault up to four units. If we get first turn this could practically end the game before it begins.

There are a few thorns though.
1. Dawn of War. This list is a one trick pony and there is no room to do it here. Thunderwolves could be outflanked, or Shrike could be tagged onto a different unit.
2. Servo skulls, or anything that stops us from infiltrating will screw up our plans royally
3. Buildings. This tournament is traditionally riddled with them, and if the enemy is small enough to hide upstairs, only Shrike will get to them early on.
4. Transport heavy would mess us up a bit if the contents is shooty enough, if there is nowhere to hide in combat.
5. Non-static army deployment such as Drop podding or daemon deep striking leaves us with no target to alpha strike. Even putting everything into reserve would put us off balance.

I'm also having difficulty deciding what to take on the Space marine side. Anti-tank seems like a solid choice, so Predators or suicide Sternguard seem a must. I feel like there is better that can be picked though.

Could these be improved?

Closer to now, my Sanguinauts take to the field in their first tournament tomorrow! They have been built up heeding the advice of this very forum, so a big thanks to all who offered Blood Angels advice.
As far as predictions go, this tournament is always a tough one, so expecting 1 win, 1 draw, 3 loses. If I do better than that, I will be pretty happy indeed.
Wish me luck!

[Renegade Paladin]

See; Hammernators being bad.

Hammernators in a Caestus assault ram?

Forge World to the rescue!