Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Cheesegear]

Personally, what I like best about the release is now all 9 first founding chapters are easily available again (They released an Iron Hands upgrade sprue). Also, that's a whole lot of Crimson Fists stuff there. Were they like the second flagship chapter (after Ultramarines) for a while or something?

You know the Iron Hands isn't new?
It used to come in a box. A Tactical Squad with a whole slough of metal bits.
lol. Crimson Fists were the first flagship Chapter. Ultramarines didn't really come around until 4th Ed.

All of the 'new releases' have been available in metal from Mail Order for a long, long time. It's just that they're Finecast now.

...Man I'm old.

[Squark]

You know the Iron Hands isn't new?
It used to come in a box. A Tactical Squad with a whole slough of metal bits.
lol. Crimson Fists were the first flagship Chapter. Ultramarines didn't really come around until 4th Ed.

All of the 'new releases' have been available in metal from Mail Order for a long, long time. It's just that they're Finecast now.

...Man I'm old.

Yeah, I knew they weren't new. But finding the metal stuff was getting increasingly difficult, so I thought it might be worth mentioning. Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

[Wraith]

Yeah, I knew they weren't new. But finding the metal stuff was getting increasingly difficult, so I thought it might be worth mentioning. Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

In the Rogue Trader era, there wasn't anything like Foundings - there were just 1,000 Chapters of Space Marines, each with their own motif but otherwise no one had rank above the others.
Of those 1,000, only 12 ever appeared in the MRB in any details - the Crimson Fists were one of them, and as such would be considered as one of the original 'Founding Legions' (along with the Blooddrinkers, the Flesheaters, the Fleshtearers, the Rainbow Warriors and the Silver Skulls, who were all later demoted to Second Founding status).

2nd Edition introduced the 18 known Legions that we use today, all with deliberately different colour schemes so as to give the game some variety - originally, 3 of the named Chapters had predominantly Red armour, 3 had predominantly Black and 3 predominantly bright blue with only helmet detail and shoulder logo to tell them apart.

Thus, the Crimson Fists were reduced to a Second Founding, because the golden Imperial Fists provided a more varied palate.

Having said that, they were never truley 'usurped' by the Ultramarines - the Second Edition Codex for 'generic' Space Marines was entitled Codex: Ultramarines, but the standard colour scheme of models in the Boxed Game were Blood Angels, who at the time were one of three Chapters (also including Space Wolves and Dark Angels) to have their own Codex with their own special rules.
Third Edition saw the Black Templars used as the 'default' Space Marine army on the box, whereas 4th Edition used a generic Imperial Skull-and-Hammer motif.
So Ultramarines have never been the 'flagship' Chapter, insofar as the Boxed Game is concerned. It's only the 2nd Edition Codices that did that, and even that wasn't as unique as you'd think.

....Okay, now *I* feel old, too!

[Cheesegear]

Also, I didn't know the Crimson Fists were the original flagship chapter... Err... Why did they lose that position to the Ultramarines?

From a cynical standpoint; Because Ultramarine Blue (yes, that's actually the technical colour), is a lot of peoples' (mostly boys') favourite colour, and it's generally a good idea to market what people like.

From a common sense standpoint; Because Ultramarines are the largest, most successful Chapter, the majority of Space Marine geneseed comes from them, their Primarch was a Tactical Genius to rival Creed and wrote the Codex, which your physical Codex: Space Marines is supposedly based off of.

Although whether they are this because it just sounds cool, or they were made to have this fluff because of the first point isn't quite a real question because the answer is obvious.

...I'm kind of surprised that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are even allowed to be portrayed as how they are in the Horus Heresy novels, the HH novels takes everything Ward wrote and makes it a bad thing to do...

For shots and goggles, here's the 3rd Ed. Codex.

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lol...The Codex is $15. Those were the days...

[Squark]

Revised Space Wolves list

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HQ:Rune Priest -125 pts
-Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the world wolf

Elites
Wolf Guard Pack (x5) -210 pts
-Terminator Armor, Power Sword, storm bolter, Cyclone missile Launcher
-Combi-flamer, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Nothing (Point tax and ablative wound for Long Fangs)
Wolf Scouts Pack (x5) -130pts
-Mark of the Wulfen on meltagun, 2 Power swords
Lone Wolf -85 Points
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Troops
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasma guns

Heavy Support
Long Fangs Pack (x6) -170 pts
-3 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons
Total: 1240 pts

Any Critiques? Suggestions on what to do with the last 10 points (Give the Terminator Wolf guard a Powerfist? Give the Lone Wolf an ablative Fenrisian Wolf? Saga of the Beastslayer for the Rune Priest?)?

[Cheesegear]

Revised Space Wolves list

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HQ:Rune Priest -125 pts
-Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf tail Talisman, Chooser of the Slain
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the world wolf

Wolf Tail Talisman is useless. Check what your Rune Weapon does again. Wolf Tooth Necklace doesn't synergise with the powers you have. Otherwise you probably want Fury and Thunderclap since you're going to be in combat and/or close to the enemy. Ideally you want your Priest in the Long Fang unit if you're going with those particular powers.

Wolf Guard Pack (x5) -210 pts
-Terminator Armor, Power Sword, storm bolter, Cyclone missile Launcher
-Combi-flamer, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Combi-melta, Powerfist
-Nothing (Point tax and ablative wound for Long Fangs)

Err. Only one Wolf Guard can join one unit. If you're joining the Cyclone to the Long Fangs (you should), that fifth one can't also join the unit. But, otherwise, yeah, point tax.

Wolf Scouts Pack (x5) -130pts
-Mark of the Wulfen on meltagun, 2 Power swords

K.

Lone Wolf -85 Points
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

No Fenrisian Wolves make Lone Wolves cry. Depite the name, Lone Wolves should never actually be alone.

Otherwise, huge waste of points. A unit of 3 Long Fangs with two Missile Launchers and a Meltagun is probably better.

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasma guns

Looks good to me. You could drop the Wolf Standards for more Long Fangs to the above unit.

Long Fangs Pack (x6) -170 pts
-3 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons
Total: 1240 pts

Is that because of the models you have? Or because you thought this was a good idea? Missile-spam beats anything except walls of Land Raiders, which you should not be facing in 1250. And if you are, they'll have practically nothing else on the board, so you should shoot them with your Meltaguns. Lascannons are not a terrible choice, but they are overpriced considering the way the Space Wolves Codex works. You can get another Long Fang, and the Missile Launcher he comes with for the price of the Lascannon alone.

Saga of the Beastslayer for the Rune Priest?

A Rune Priest should always have Saga of the Beastslayer as standard. A Rune Priest should be blasting things apart with Living Lightning or Assaulting an Avatar, Daemon Prince (and shutting down that Lash nonsense), and generally, if you're within Rune Weapon range to shut down Tyranid Psychic Powers, you're probably about to be Assaulted by a Monstrous Creature.

[Hazzardevil]

Hi, you may or may not remember me from 20 pages ago, I don't need help with an army list this time, just a small question in the rules.

My codex says that tau pathfinders must select a devilfish. Does this mean 1 devilfish per pathfinder squad or 1 devilfish, all the squads I want?

[Tome]

Hi, you may or may not remember me from 20 pages ago, I don't need help with an army list this time, just a small question in the rules.

My codex says that tau pathfinders must select a devilfish. Does this mean 1 devilfish per pathfinder squad or 1 devilfish, all the squads I want?

1 Devilfish per squad.

Yes, I know, it sucks.

[Squark]

Wolf Tail Talisman is useless. Check what your Rune Weapon does again. Wolf Tooth Necklace doesn't synergise with the powers you have. Otherwise you probably want Fury and Thunderclap since you're going to be in combat and/or close to the enemy. Ideally you want your Priest in the Long Fang unit if you're going with those particular powers.

It's not really useless; You can still use the wolf tail talisman's invulnerable save if you fail to stop the psychic power. But it should probably be used only as filler. Swapping the wolf tooth necklace for Saga of the Beastslayer makes sense, though.

Err. Only one Wolf Guard can join one unit. If you're joining the Cyclone to the Long Fangs (you should), that fifth one can't also join the unit. But, otherwise, yeah, point tax.

I was planning to stick him with the objective squatting plasma grey hunters. But if I cut the lone wolf, I'll probably cut the 5th Guy and turn the CML guy into something cheaper.

Otherwise, huge waste of points. A unit of 3 Long Fangs with two Missile Launchers and a Meltagun is probably better.

<snip>

Is that because of the models you have? Or because you thought this was a good idea? Missile-spam beats anything except walls of Land Raiders, which you should not be facing in 1250. And if you are, they'll have practically nothing else on the board, so you should shoot them with your Meltaguns. Lascannons are not a terrible choice, but they are overpriced considering the way the Space Wolves Codex works. You can get another Long Fang, and the Missile Launcher he comes with for the price of the Lascannon alone.

The reason for the lascannons is the same reason I passed over a second unit of missile fangs; Missile Launchers are a pain in the butt to find. I could still do it, but finding 7-8 missile Launchers is not a task I'm looking forward to. As is, I'm not sure where I'm going to find the 2 or 3 I need for the Long Fangs I already have.

[Renegade Paladin]

Be friends with a Guard player. Bo sticks my spare Guard missile launchers on his Long Fangs and it looks just fine.

[Squark]

Right. Step 1; Convince friend to start imperial guard.
Step 2; Get friend to give spare missile launchers to me.


Still, I should do more asking around. It can't hurt. Failing that, does anyone have a good bitz store to reccomend?

[Hazzardevil]

Still, I should do more asking around. It can't hurt. Failing that, does anyone have a good bitz store to reccomend?

If by bitz you mean models, then this site is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com
I haven't used it myself, but a friend tells me it has good service and I've checked, almost everything on there is cheaper than Games Workshop.

Be friends with a Guard player. Bo sticks my spare Guard missile launchers on his Long Fangs and it looks just fine.

I wasn't aware that guard players had so many rocket launchers. If I ever start a new army, maybe I will "liberate" some from him.

[Cheesegear]

It's not really useless; You can still use the wolf tail talisman's invulnerable save if you fail to stop the psychic power.

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

[Renegade Paladin]

If by bitz you mean models, then this site is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com
I haven't used it myself, but a friend tells me it has good service and I've checked, almost everything on there is cheaper than Games Workshop.


I wasn't aware that guard players had so many rocket launchers. If I ever start a new army, maybe I will "liberate" some from him.

Every heavy weapons team sprue has one of each heavy weapon. Unless you build all missile launchers (and therefore have no lascannons) you have lots of missile launchers left.

[Squark]

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

*checks*

Stupid, Stupid. I was confusing Runic Armor's function with the talisman. >.>

If by bitz you mean models, then this site is quite cheap.
It's called waylands.com

Bitz is actually the term for individual parts; like weapons, helmets, or the little extra stuff like pistol holsters, grenades, and the like.

[BoSheck]

No. No you can't. Each power can only be attempted at once. Which means you get the 4+, or the 5+. Not both, and not one after the other. Wolf Tail Talismans are for Wolf Lords who don't have Bear (?), who charge up the middle away from your Rune Priest in the back shooting Living Lightning, and those Wolf Lords run toe-to-toe (or claw, because you're on a Thunderwolf) with Mephiston and they don't get Force Weapon'd.

Yes you get both. Think FNP, but for psychic tests. They're separate abilities, granted by separate wargear that occur at different times on a player turn for different reasons AND have different effects (one cancels the power outright, one causes a power that would affect the unit or the IC to not do so). There are situations where you'll get one and then the other, provided the runestaff fails. WTT doesn't apply to every situation anyway, just when your unit is being targeted.

I was planning to stick him with the objective squatting plasma grey hunters. But if I cut the lone wolf, I'll probably cut the 5th Guy and turn the CML guy into something cheaper.

That's the proper place to put him. More missiles in one unit is supah cool and all, but the ability to throw more missiles at different targets is very important. Wolf guard on Long Fangs are so you have somebody to take a bullet (and because you wanted to dissolve your Wolf Guard pack for a Kill Point mission).

[HalfTangible]

Ok, after playing my first game with my own army (1000pt blood angels list) I came to three conclusions:

1) Necrons are AWESOME.
2) My Assault squad - especially it's powerfist - is also awesome.
3) I don't need a tactical squad, I need more assault squads and/or stronger units.

So I opened my blood angels battleforce for it's assault marines (finally) and got me some vanguard veterans. Which begs the question: what should I give them? At the moment I only have the one pack of veterans, (pretty sure there's five, but I haven't opened it yet) and they're gonna have jump packs and run with my captain (storm bolter and lightning claw)

Maybe a hand flamer for one of the vets and a power fist for the sergeant? maybe a glaive encarmine instead of the fist?... It might be a better choice, I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>

Rough army composition atm: Assault squad w/ melta and powerfist, Reclusiarch w/Death Company (thunder hammer), one scout squad w/snipers and a missile launcher split into two combat squads of five.

[BoSheck]

I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>

Glaive Encarmine should be with the Sanguinary Guard entry, IIRC. I may be thinking of Angelius Boltguns, however. Maybe both are there.

Some people are going to tell you don't play Vanguard Veterans and just get more assault marines. I have no opinion of them as I've only ever played against them from Codex: Space Marines and they were underwhelming, but what are you gonna do? Light assault unit in a shooty book is probably a trap. Light assault unit in an assaulty book is probably weaker than your other options, but maybe not.

Anyway, go with the fist and load up on melta options, Vanguard or not. It's the only way to be sure.

[Timberwolf]

Ok, after playing my first game with my own army (1000pt blood angels list) I came to three conclusions:

1) Necrons are AWESOME.
2) My Assault squad - especially it's powerfist - is also awesome.
3) I don't need a tactical squad, I need more assault squads and/or stronger units.

Maybe a hand flamer for one of the vets and a power fist for the sergeant? maybe a glaive encarmine instead of the fist?... It might be a better choice, I dunno, can't find stats for the glaive in this book >.>

Rough army composition atm: Assault squad w/ melta and powerfist, Reclusiarch w/Death Company (thunder hammer), one scout squad w/snipers and a missile launcher split into two combat squads of five.

Necrons are annoying, especially the constantly returning HQ units, but I do enjoy playing them far more with, dare I say it, Ward's new fluff. I know, I know, I'm expecting the 4Chan inquisition to beat down my door any second, but there we go. Heresy ftw.

Arrrrghhhh, the Glaive. I hate that thing. Allow me to expand.

The glaive is a 2 handed power sword that you get a single reroll for. That's it. That's what you're trading your extra attack (which when you think about iy amounts to a reroll with the possibility of more) for. It doesn't even give you plus 2 to strength, it just gives you nothing bar that single reroll. Forget it and take a normal power sword or a lightning claw or even a small wooden spoon over it in my opinion.

Vanguard are awesome in the BA Codex since they only scatter D6. This now means your thunder hammer is right where it needs to be and is assaulting. The only problem with them is how expensive they can be as it costs points to give them the jump packs. Still, for a DoA list, they're highly advised for doing such things as clearing out Long Fangs or other bits of nasty.

[Tome]

Vanguard are good if you're running a Descent of Angel list. Otherwise, best steer clear.

[Cheesegear]

What should I give [Vanguard]? At the moment I only have the one pack of veterans, (pretty sure there's five, but I haven't opened it yet) and they're gonna have jump packs and run with my captain (storm bolter and lightning claw)

Vanguard (x5) - 230 Points
Power Fist, x2 Storm Shields
Sergeant; Lightning Claw
Jump Packs

Vanguard need to stay small. 230 Points is also what it costs for a fully kitted Assault Squad, a decent sized Death Company, a Stormraven, etc. You don't want your Vanguard squads large, because at that point you should be paying points for other stuff.

You could add in an Infernus Pistol or two. But you can't shoot if you declare Heroic Intervention, whether you're in Assault range or not. Same deal with Hand Flamers. They'd be useful, if Vanguard could use them properly.

It's probably not advised to roll your Captain with them, since they lose Heroic Intervention then, which is what you're paying points for (even if you don't take Jump Packs...). If you don't plan on Deep Striking your Vanguard for some reason (then you should count them as regular Assault Marines that look really pretty), then, sure, run your Captain with them.

Yes you get both. Think FNP, but for psychic tests.

I looked in the main rulebook. I checked the FAQ. Was I going crazy? Was this some 4th Ed. rule that I've been playing with forever like an idiot? ...No. Turns out 'One Nullify per One Power' is a Psychic Hood rule, and completely separate from Space Wolves...Who cheat.

[BoSheck]

...No. Turns out 'One Nullify per One Power' is a Psychic Hood rule, and completely separate from Space Wolves...Who cheat.

Aaaaand how. *laugh* Don't forget, the Wolf FAQ specifically breaks several other rules of the main rulebook FAQ. Golden bearded-child indeed.

I remember when I first started, I read somewhere that marines make for poor rules comperhension because you ignore so many of them. I think that was just some jaded Reign of Xenos edition grognard, but who knows, my memory is fuzzy on that at least.

[Cheesegear]

Aaaaand how. *laugh* Don't forget, the Wolf FAQ specifically breaks several other rules of the main rulebook FAQ. Golden bearded-child indeed.

So, now I know that Space Wolves cheat...

Let's say I have 4 Rune Priests (because having 4 HQs is cheating, and that makes it Space Wolves), it turns out that I can actually try to nullify a power 4 times. Because Rune Weapons are not Psychic Hoods and don't cry when too many of them get together.

However, when a Space Wolf sees someone on the battlefield with the same wargear as him, he refuses to fight and demands to be taken home to change.

[Gauntlet]

Still trying to decide what new army I want to put together this year. At the moment, Imperial Guard look really strong but also really expensive. The hydra build I am looking at would be £31 each.

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HQ
Company Command- 145
Meltagun x4
Chimera

Troops
Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 155
Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Veterans- 100
Meltagun x3

Fast Attack
Vendetta- 130

Vendetta- 130

Bane Wolf- 135
Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support
Leman Russ- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

Hydra Flak Tank x2- 150

---
1500

[Renegade Paladin]

There are persistent rumors of a Hydra plastic kit, but it keeps not materializing.

[Gauntlet]

I was planning to just take Chimeras and put the autocannon turrets from that scenery emplacement thing on them.

[Cheesegear]

I was planning to just take Chimeras and put the autocannon turrets from that scenery emplacement thing on them.

Maybe it's the super strong $AUD, but the Forgeworld kit is cheaper if you've got access to a credit/debit card.

[Renegade Paladin]

Maybe it's the super strong $AUD, but the Forgeworld kit is cheaper if you've got access to a credit/debit card.

The Forge World kit is £43. It had been taken down for awhile (I'd have bought one with my recent FW order if they'd been up), but it's back now. Unfortunate, really; I'd taken that as a sign that plastic kits might actually be imminent.

Also, I have the interceptor gun emplacements from the Imperial Strongpoint kit, and they're butt-ugly when you try to put them on a vehicle. The proportions are all wrong.

[Cheesegear]

It had been taken down for awhile (I'd have bought one with my recent FW order if they'd been up), but it's back now. Unfortunate, really; I'd taken that as a sign that plastic kits might actually be imminent.

That just means that they're out of stock when they take something down. FW still sell a lot of things that GW has made plastic kits for. The generic venerable Dread, and a couple of the IG tanks, for example.

[BoSheck]

Let's say I have 4 Rune Priests (because having 4 HQs is cheating, and that makes it Space Wolves), it turns out that I can actually try to nullify a power 4 times. Because Rune Weapons are not Psychic Hoods and don't cry when too many of them get together.

Naw, the Space Wolf FAQ specifically prevents such. The best you can do is get a single 3+ to cancel (Njal) and then WTT. There TECHNICALLY is nothing about multiple WTTs not triggering, though. Given I don't think I've ever had that many WTTs in one unit, but surely someone out there likes landraiders full of ALL OF THE HQs and Lukas, for giggles. Or he REALLY REALLY hates getting Doomed. Plus it should be obvious they aren't intended to work that way. Probably.