In a zombie apocalpyse

[Murska]

"Ew, what happened here?"
"Dysentery."
"Burn the shack to the ground, let's call this island clear and go home."

Or even better...

"Seriously? There's no guard on this li'l island in the middle of the lake that we can row to and the zombies can just walk to on the lakebed?"
"Time to loot and pillage!"
"Remember: Pillage, then burn."
"I can never keep those two straight..."

Both are situations that a buddy can alleviate.

Illness is a risk, though I'd actually imagine that injury is the more likely case. Raiders less so - I think you're underestimating 'middle of nowhere' here. There are no people anywhere near, so I think it'd be somewhat unlikely for people to find their way to the island, spot my settlement therein, sneak in unnoticed after building a watercraft of some sort and then find enough equipment for it to have been worth the trouble. Especially since if I do notice them, they're kind of in a small floating piece of wood in the middle of a lake with zero cover.

Meanwhile, having other people around carries risks as well. People I don't know and can't trust, people who might get 'bright' ideas, people who might go crazy, people who require food and shelter and may carry diseases. People I might get into a dispute with, on a small island where both of us have ready access to firearms and alcohol. Above all, people I'd feel responsible for - if my buddy gets injured or sick, I might have to go out and find some medicine. If I kill myself of my own stupidity or go crazy, at least it's only me who's suffering.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Illness is a risk, though I'd actually imagine that injury is the more likely case. Raiders less so - I think you're underestimating 'middle of nowhere' here. There are no people anywhere near, so I think it'd be somewhat unlikely for people to find their way to the island, spot my settlement therein, sneak in unnoticed after building a watercraft of some sort and then find enough equipment for it to have been worth the trouble. Especially since if I do notice them, they're kind of in a small floating piece of wood in the middle of a lake with zero cover.

...Zombies. They don't breathe.

[Murska]

They are also not raiders. I imagine some anti-zombie things will be required, such as a fence and sleeping in a tree. Regardless, actually moving underwater is not that easy and, assuming these zombies sense by scent, they can't navigate there either. If it's frozen, then they can't get out from under the ice once they fall in. Until spring, anyway.

It all depends on what the zombies are like, exactly. If it's a virus or something, they do need to breathe and so they die underwater. If it's magic, I don't know what sort of weaknesses they would have, but water probably won't harm my chances and it'll certainly help against living humans.

[Starwulf]

If you manage to break an M16A2/A4, you deserve to be eaten. I've used one as a baseball bat before (grab it by the barrel, beat target vigorously with pistol grip/stock end) and it still functions perfectly fine as a firearm. They only really jam if you're deliberately mistreating them or using really, really old weapons that should have been retired after the first Gulf War.
That aside, I'll reiterate that weapons using 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammo are really quite common. In the end, it's what you're most comfortable with. Having a thousand rounds and twenty M16A2s doesn't matter if you can't shoot the thing to save your life.

Oh, you mean like the ones that they have recruits in Basic Training use? ^^ Course, I think they also do that so they can teach you to stay calm when you have a jam, fix it quickly, then resume firing(since, ya know, you have to stay calm and do it quickly, or to many targets are going to go by and hurt your BRM Score. Then again, I don't really consider the Basic Training BRM to be an accurate measurement of a persons true score BECAUSE the weapons frequently jam, thus causing you to miss anywhere between 1-3 targets, more if it jams a second or even third time Like I remember it doing on a buddy of mine). They are definitely sturdy weapons though. Considering the abuse they get from recruits in BT and they still function pretty damn well!

"Ew, what happened here?"
"Dysentery."
"Burn the shack to the ground, let's call this island clear and go home."

Or even better...

"Seriously? There's no guard on this li'l island in the middle of the lake that we can row to and the zombies can just walk to on the lakebed?"
"Time to loot and pillage!"
"Remember: Pillage, then burn."
"I can never keep those two straight..."

Both are situations that a buddy can alleviate.

Ehh, I'll disagree here, just because, who is really going to go around searching islands in the middle of nowhere for zombies during an outbreak? Especially if it's not an island that can easily be seen from shore and what not. If you're actively looking for islands that aren't particularly known about, you're likely looking for survivors AFTER things have calmed down, which means you don't need the pillage, you just want to find more human beings that are alive.

Myself, if I went the loner route(well, my family would be with me), I'd be in a cabin that NO-ONE knows about except me and a couple of friends, and it's so far in the middle of nowhere with a road that you don't even know is a road until you've walked onto it for a good 10 minutes, AND is in an rural area outside of a town with a known population of ONLY 1300, that no-one would ever find me anyways unless I WANTED to be found. Also, I'd have a large stockpile of handguns and rifles + ammo, and would have taught my oldest daughter how to shoot fairly well, and my wife already knows how, so we'd be pretty good on defending ourselves from the odd person who might, on an incredible stroke of luck, have found us.

[Cikomyr]

I would probably not be the natural leader, but I sure would be pretty opiniated about what we should do, up to a limit as I'd want to preserve unit cohesion and overly criticizing the elected leader is a bad thing to do.

I'd be the annoying heartless pragmatic who thinks we shouldn't spend 2 units of morphine on our mortally wounded guy to give him "a painless death". Better just shoot him once in the head, and save the morphine for when we're going to need it to MAKE A DIFFERENCE! Like running away while being injured.

(sorry, I just watched an episode of Battlestar Galactica and the moral decision the character chose just irked me. Maybe I'm a heartless bastard, but if someone WILL die, I don't see how wasting all our viable medication to overdose him is better than an insta-kill headshot)

[Coidzor]

That actually reminds me of another question that's related to the ones about how much biting power a zombie could actually bring to bear and how much they can actually threaten a barricade, even enmasse. Could zombies actually walk along the seafloor (in shallow enough parts of the ocean not to get insta-gibbed by the pressure, I refuse to accept the raw stupid of them being capable of surviving the marina trench) or lakebeds?

They're supposed to get pretty decrepit from tearing their bodies apart just by moving and such. So would they really be able to resist currents if they end up in a river or slog against the resistance of the water if it's more than chest deep?

Why haven't we had zombie episodes of Mythbusters yet?

[Cikomyr]

I doubt zombies can walk across the ocean floors if they have decomposing flesh in them. At best, they'll float, and I don't think they have the musclepower or the orientation skill necessary to actually reach anywhere.

Except if sharks eat them, and the sharks become zombified. If that happens, we are screwed.

[noparlpf]

...Zombies. They don't breathe.

They also don't really have much in the way of coordination or intelligence, so they're not likely to actively attempt to reach some random island unless the residents are dumb enough to leave obvious signs of life, like light, loud noises, etc.

They are also not raiders. I imagine some anti-zombie things will be required, such as a fence and sleeping in a tree. Regardless, actually moving underwater is not that easy and, assuming these zombies sense by scent, they can't navigate there either. If it's frozen, then they can't get out from under the ice once they fall in. Until spring, anyway.

It all depends on what the zombies are like, exactly. If it's a virus or something, they do need to breathe and so they die underwater. If it's magic, I don't know what sort of weaknesses they would have, but water probably won't harm my chances and it'll certainly help against living humans.

Depends on the virus. In "I am Legend", they needed to breathe. In that terrible book "The Zombie Survival Guide", they didn't need to breathe, even though a virus turned them.
Regardless, water isn't that great for staying intact when bits of you are already rotting and dropping off, and lakeweed impedes movement a good bit, and without a specific direction to move in, there aren't great chances of the zombies getting to your island.

I doubt zombies can walk across the ocean floors if they have decomposing flesh in them. At best, they'll float, and I don't think they have the musclepower or the orientation skill necessary to actually reach anywhere.

Except if sharks eat them, and the sharks become zombified. If that happens, we are screwed.

Zombie sharks aren't a big deal. I stay on land where I can breathe, the sharks do their thing in the ocean until they starve/decay. This is of course assuming this is a type of zombification that can happen to animals. So I'm going to reiterate my questions from before: What kind of zombies are they, do they need to breathe, do they need functioning muscles to move? Is it the type of curse where they need to bite you to turn you, or is it the more sci-fi type where it's transferred by saliva and blood? I NEED A PREMISE TO BE ABLE TO PLAN.

[Cikomyr]

Zombie sharks aren't a big deal. I stay on land where I can breathe, the sharks do their thing in the ocean until they starve/decay. This is of course assuming this is a type of zombification that can happen to animals. So I'm going to reiterate my questions from before: What kind of zombies are they, do they need to breathe, do they need functioning muscles to move? Is it the type of curse where they need to bite you to turn you, or is it the more sci-fi type where it's transferred by saliva and blood? I NEED A PREMISE TO BE ABLE TO PLAN.

Fool. You don't plan for the Zombie Apocalypse. You never know the rules. You never know the timing.

You just survive it, or fall to it.

[blackjack217]

The guy who created the virus?

[Cikomyr]

The guy who created the virus?

Who is usually the very first victim to the virus itself, or the first zombie created by said virus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Who is usually the very first victim to the virus itself, or the first zombie created by said virus.

I think he was saying that he would be the one who caused the apocalypse.

[dehro]

I NEED A PREMISE TO BE ABLE TO PLAN.

thing is..should it ever happen..I don't think you'd get a leaflet outlining the peculiarities of the creatures that are trying to eat you. you'd have to find out whilst trying to stay ahead and running for your life...and if you get time to recover, regroup and take stock of the situation..it remains to be seen whether you or anyone else has gotten a close enough view to the zombies for you to get a clear idea about those questions you've asked.


as for me...Scout and strategist. I'd be one of the leaders, but probably not the main talker.

I tend to be the guy with practical solutions, and to be less prone to losing it in the face of sudden adversity..but I'd still need to see for myself what we'd be up against, to make sure my strategy were sound and that I'd figured out at least a couple of contingency plans.

my strategy would be as follows:

Spoiler

Show

my main issue would be making sure that the important people stay alive..those with skills I don't have, those who are needed in the long term, and those that are more inclined to stay calm and listen to me.
the others would be fodder, on account of being those most likely to wander off on their own, act on a whim, cause internal strife or to do all the stupid things we've all seen in every horror movie.

I'm going to go with the sea option because every other one relies either on mobility, which exposes you to new dangers everywhere you go, or on digging in somewhere, creating a fort of some description, with the inevitable downside that sooner or later you're going to run out of something important and have to expose yourself to danger to try and find it...all the while, zombies in their tens of thousands would be roaming the surroundings, on account of the continent being usually the most populated area...on whatever continent. a small enough island is much more defensible and versatile.
getting to the coast is a matter of 2-to-5 hours driving, allowing for time to steal a big truck, a police van or something of that ilk, something tough enough to plough through obstacles, other abbandoned vehicles and obstinate zombies, without giving the latter an easy access to inside the van.
Come to think of it, I live rather close to an important politician who's got a couple of those vans patroling the area for security reasons.. assuming that the cops inside it have been zombified as well, stealing one or more of those vans shouldn't be impossible, with a few precautions.
I assume that we are a group and we are by now aware that there's most likely nobody else around, at least at useful range, but there must still be plenty of resources lying about on account of the plague/curse/what have you having occurred rather suddenly. arming ourselves would be the first order of business. my neighbour is a cop and must have a gun somewhere in the house... I know how to use one. other weapons can be acquired...both firearms and otherwise.... I'd think that firearms would be better, but much harder to come by (here in Italy, that is).. also, weight and munitions would be a big issue.

I'd favour mobility over firepower though.. the main plan I would put forth would be to head for the nearest coast, find a number of sailboats, 20-40 feet long (because I know how to manage one..anything bigger than that would mean I wouldn't know how to get them going) anyway, a number of boats adequate to our numbers and the resources we'd manage to acquire along the way. I'm going with sailboats because they're better in rough weather and I don't know how easily I can get access to fuel for motorboats.
once I got everybody in open sea, and assuming the zombies are not the pirate of the caribbean variety and don't swim or walk on the bottom of the sea (fat lot of good that's going to do them anyway, walking in deep water when I'm floating at surface level).. I'd head south, following the coast until I reached an island I know off, which has a few houses, a generator, decent-to-good weather the year round, good fishing waters, a desalinization plant and a few other amenities, whilst still being close enough to the coast to give ample opportunity to organize carefully planned supply runs. the total trip would take several days.. a week tops, allowing for the inevitable bad weather/breaking down of stuff/members of the party getting into trouble, fights to gain access to the boats or vehicles/time spent building up our supplies and so on..
once in relative safety on the island, I'd set up patrols just in case, and wait for the zombies to die out, through lack of living human flesh, through cannibalism or through whatever mother nature decides to throw at them once they've run out of food.

..yeah.. zombies trying to take a stroll on the seabed would simply be seen as walking lunch by.. well..just about any fish, I suppose...you needn't be a shark to take a nibble..specially if you bring your 200 brothers along with you

[noparlpf]

Fool. You don't plan for the Zombie Apocalypse. You never know the rules. You never know the timing.

You just survive it, or fall to it.

Well, I have different contingencies depending on what type of zombie outbreak it is. I'm not sure which one you're talking about, so I'm not sure which contingency to go with.
The general idea would be the same, though, and would involve camping out in a less-populated area, lying low until the zombies die off, then looking for people.

[Starwulf]

Well, I have different contingencies depending on what type of zombie outbreak it is. I'm not sure which one you're talking about, so I'm not sure which contingency to go with.
The general idea would be the same, though, and would involve camping out in a less-populated area, lying low until the zombies die off, then looking for people.

I can agree with that. If for example, the zombies were sprinters, you can be guaranteed that I WOULD NOT try to group up with others. I would be going straight to the aforementioned cabin, and staying there, for at least a month, probably more, before I even DARED to peek back out into the wider world. If they are superhuman strength with no difference in strength between day old zombie and month old zombie(ie: a supernatural zombie), I'd probably still be willing to stick with a group, but only if they had a well-defended spot that couldn't be gotten through by relentless pounding. If they were your typical slow, strong, but not overly so zombie, whose strength decreases as time goes along, I'd be less worried about a fortress to stay in, and probably more concerned with just completely clearing out an entire town(like the one I live not to far away from), and then establishing a perimeter around the entire town to prevent any other zombies from getting through. Then create a nice little pocket of humanity with little worry.

All those depend entirely on the type of the zombie. I wouldn't enact any plan until I knew what I was dealing with. Of course, I actually have the luxury of doing that, considering I live on top of a mountain in the middle of nowhere. Wouldn't have ANY zombies to worry about initially, and even after a week I probably still wouldn't encounter more then a handful a day, and those would easily be picked off by a shotgun or a rifle. I realize others probably won't have that luxury, but I know I do, so I'd wait for sure, and comb the internet while I could for any information pertinent to the situation.

[noparlpf]

...and comb the internet while I could for any information pertinent to the situation.

That's something I forgot about. Yeah, that would be pretty handy. I know I wouldn't, but I'm sure there are people who would post info on the zombies.

[boredgremlin]

I've got a couple of buddies who work in a big old prison where everything is huge concrete walls and steel bars so we already decided when walking dead first came out that we would take that over. Its got its own wells, generators, canned food, rice, etc for 4,000 people, guard towers, armory, infirmary, pretty much everything you could see yourself needing in an fort for the apocalypse.

Of course we would pull the inmates out one cell at a time and kick them out the front door or just shoot them. I mean who wants to put up with those *******s during an apocalypse?

Incidentally I'm also that guy who will shoot you in the leg and leave you for the zombies so i can get away if the situation calls for it. But hey, I'm a good shot and pretty good infiltrator so you still want me around most of the time.

[Coidzor]

Of course we would pull the inmates out one cell at a time and kick them out the front door or just shoot them. I mean who wants to put up with those *******s during an apocalypse?

Incidentally I'm also that guy who will shoot you in the leg and leave you for the zombies so i can get away if the situation calls for it. But hey, I'm a good shot and pretty good infiltrator so you still want me around most of the time.

Yeah... The thing right there. Generally the situation doesn't call for it. In fact, those kinds of behaviors are the kind of another thing that's going to lead to all of that unnecessary bloodshed between groups of survivors.

[boredgremlin]

Yeah... The thing right there. Generally the situation doesn't call for it. In fact, those kinds of behaviors are the kind of another thing that's going to lead to all of that unnecessary bloodshed between groups of survivors.

What makes you so sure its unnecessary? If we're getting a chance to restart civilization here why not make people earn their place in our brave new world?

[Hiro Protagonest]

What makes you so sure its unnecessary? If we're getting a chance to restart civilization here why not make people earn their place in our brave new world?

Because if it was me you shot while we were out on a mission, I would take my gun and shoot you back.

And it might only distract a couple of zombies. The rest would still come after you.

[Coidzor]

What makes you so sure its unnecessary? If we're getting a chance to restart civilization here why not make people earn their place in our brave new world?

Generally because "for the lulz" and killing make for a bad combination and is not the kind of ethos that one wants to really establish as the basis for a new society.

Considering that societies are generally cooperative in nature. A very cavalier attitude towards killing one's friends and allies does not group cohesiveness make.

[WyvernLord]

...you guys are putting quite some thought into this.

You are obviously not new to the internet. So how does this come as a surprise?

[Starwulf]

...you guys are putting quite some thought into this.

If only the Zombie Survival page some of us over at bethsoft put together had ever got fully completed ^^ We made 8 threads packed with zombie survival plans once. It was a blast and we had some very intricate plans :)

[boredgremlin]

Because if it was me you shot while we were out on a mission, I would take my gun and shoot you back.

LOL well knowing that it wont be in the leg now will it? See, shoulda kept that to yourself huh?

[boredgremlin]

Generally because "for the lulz" and killing make for a bad combination and is not the kind of ethos that one wants to really establish as the basis for a new society.

Considering that societies are generally cooperative in nature. A very cavalier attitude towards killing one's friends and allies does not group cohesiveness make.

I wouldnt exactly call "so the zombies dont eat me" cavalier. Its more of a Donner party moment.

And anyway societies are rarely really cooperative even though thats the ideal they claim to strive for. Theres a pretty clear line that societies usually follow.

Despotism, (rule of the strong) which gives way to
Republic (rule of the worthy) Which degenerates to
Democracy (mob rule) Which inevitably devolves to
anarchy (no rule) from which arises
Despotism.

And so forth.

I would say zombie apocalypse certainly qualifies as anarchy so basic human nature is that the strong MUST rule in order to set the stage for better styles later on.

[Cobra_Ikari]

LOL well knowing that it wont be in the leg now will it? See, shoulda kept that to yourself huh?

...this is what I'd have said to you. I mean, now, if there IS a zombie apocalypse, I'll have to go around telling everyone I meet to shoot you on sight, because if not, you'll wound them and leave them to die.

[Starwulf]

...this is what I'd have said to you. I mean, now, if there IS a zombie apocalypse, I'll have to go around telling everyone I meet to shoot you on sight, because if not, you'll wound them and leave them to die.

I'll second that opinion. There are several people that I am an acquaintance of in RL whom I would shoot on sight if a zombie apocalypse were to occur, simply because I know exactly how ruthless they are, and exactly how bad that would magnify in such a situation, and I know the moment my back was turned, they would kill me if it benefited them in even such a small way as to give them a bit more ammo, which of course means I'd be dead the moment I saw them and turned around.

If I were to harbor such intentions as yours, I would definitely not advise broadcasting them what-so-ever, or you'll end up dead pretty quickly at the hands of your survival group at large. No-one likes a Shane, not really(tenth of an internet to first people to get that reference).

[dehro]

you talk like the bad guy in "the book of Eli"..or half the other movie bad guys in apocalypse scenarios.
your kind of attitude usually gets you killed in apocalypse movies..maybe amongst the latest, but killed none the lest (and good riddance too, if that were your gameplan IRL).
you could of course say that that's only because it's a movie, that in reality things would be different...but hey..we're talking zombie apocalypse ..the movies are pretty much the only valid source of reference here

I wouldnt exactly call "so the zombies dont eat me" cavalier. Its more of a Donner party moment.

And anyway societies are rarely really cooperative even though thats the ideal they claim to strive for. Theres a pretty clear line that societies usually follow.

Despotism, (rule of the strong) which gives way to
Republic (rule of the worthy) Which degenerates to
Democracy (mob rule) Which inevitably devolves to
anarchy (no rule) from which arises
Despotism.

And so forth.

I would say zombie apocalypse certainly qualifies as anarchy so basic human nature is that the strong MUST rule in order to set the stage for better styles later on.

zombies are outside of the society line..they're a predator plague, not part of society..what you and your fellow survivors do is what constitutes society.. if your path of choice is to start with despotism, I doubt you'll ever progress much further than that, at least in your lifetime.. there's a difference between being practical and being a despot just as there is between doing science and dabbling in eugenics nazi style.
given a choice, since we're talking of surviving and reorganizing society, I'd like to think we could start over and do it better..also, rather than at gunpoint, I'd want to buy loyalty by making the right decisions and doing my best for the common cause. in the long run it seems more practical not to have to watch my back every moment. I would prefer to be the voice of reason rather than a despot...
but hey..that's just me..quite possibly I might not make it to the coast and that would leave you "victorious"

but yeah..we are putting too much thought in this. beyond describing an exit strategy, it's kinda silly to argue ethics about a situation that won't ever occur, I suppose.

[Solaris]

Illness is a risk, though I'd actually imagine that injury is the more likely case. Raiders less so - I think you're underestimating 'middle of nowhere' here. There are no people anywhere near, so I think it'd be somewhat unlikely for people to find their way to the island, spot my settlement therein, sneak in unnoticed after building a watercraft of some sort and then find enough equipment for it to have been worth the trouble. Especially since if I do notice them, they're kind of in a small floating piece of wood in the middle of a lake with zero cover.

I think you're underestimating the willingness to disperse out to the middle of nowhere. All you'd need is one guy with the same plan as you.

I know how to make a raft that's effectively immune to small arms. Sandbags are your friends. Account for that - and for the fact that it's just you making these defenses. You're the only one there.

Do yourself a favor and get NVGs. I wouldn't move anywhere on potentially hostile water except at night, preferably with a low moon.

Meanwhile, having other people around carries risks as well. People I don't know and can't trust, people who might get 'bright' ideas, people who might go crazy, people who require food and shelter and may carry diseases. People I might get into a dispute with, on a small island where both of us have ready access to firearms and alcohol. Above all, people I'd feel responsible for - if my buddy gets injured or sick, I might have to go out and find some medicine. If I kill myself of my own stupidity or go crazy, at least it's only me who's suffering.

I wouldn't underestimate human resilience. I've seen people who were put in terrible positions and retain their sanity (more or less), though admittedly it wasn't the end of the world. Disease is a significantly greater risk than going loco, particularly because you carry so many diseases with you and so many more are readily available in the environment.
Hell, what happens if you take a mild case of dysentery and there's nobody to take care of you? There are a lot of diseases where being alone, nobody to provide you with food and water, is the difference between surviving and dying. As they tell us when training in battlefield medicine, the guy's already dead - you're the factor that can change that.

I'm not trying to attack you, just critique your plan.

Oh, you mean like the ones that they have recruits in Basic Training use? ^^ Course, I think they also do that so they can teach you to stay calm when you have a jam, fix it quickly, then resume firing(since, ya know, you have to stay calm and do it quickly, or to many targets are going to go by and hurt your BRM Score. Then again, I don't really consider the Basic Training BRM to be an accurate measurement of a persons true score BECAUSE the weapons frequently jam, thus causing you to miss anywhere between 1-3 targets, more if it jams a second or even third time Like I remember it doing on a buddy of mine). They are definitely sturdy weapons though. Considering the abuse they get from recruits in BT and they still function pretty damn well!

The difference between my BCT rifle and the brand-spanky-new, I was the first one to ever fire it M4 was amazing.
I don't consider BRM to be an accurate gauge of anything except your ability to shoot pop-up targets from positions that I might smack you for using in an engagement. Prone has its uses, kneeling is good, but they should train to shoot from the standing and on the run.

Ehh, I'll disagree here, just because, who is really going to go around searching islands in the middle of nowhere for zombies during an outbreak? Especially if it's not an island that can easily be seen from shore and what not. If you're actively looking for islands that aren't particularly known about, you're likely looking for survivors AFTER things have calmed down, which means you don't need the pillage, you just want to find more human beings that are alive.

Me. My idea of 'calmed down' is 'zombies are not actively trying to eat me right now'. Why wait for it to blow over if it might never blow over without an agency to engage it? What if everyone's waiting for that agency to come save them? Someone needs to be that agency - why not me and my team? Hell, why leave people floating on their own when I could be trolling around in an FMTV carrying supplies, ammo, mail, address books, and able bodies? Cooperation is the cornerstone of human survival. It's what we have over the zombies.
Now imagine that it's not me, and instead someone who decides that he wants to take what you have. He can handle zombie attack, he's trained to fight and infiltrate, so he knows his stuff and the passives are only going to slow him down. Say he's watched you some and knows your sleep patterns. What's your counter to that?

Myself, if I went the loner route(well, my family would be with me), I'd be in a cabin that NO-ONE knows about except me and a couple of friends, and it's so far in the middle of nowhere with a road that you don't even know is a road until you've walked onto it for a good 10 minutes, AND is in an rural area outside of a town with a known population of ONLY 1300, that no-one would ever find me anyways unless I WANTED to be found. Also, I'd have a large stockpile of handguns and rifles + ammo, and would have taught my oldest daughter how to shoot fairly well, and my wife already knows how, so we'd be pretty good on defending ourselves from the odd person who might, on an incredible stroke of luck, have found us.

This is a good plan. Plenty of resources, doesn't rely on scavenging, and has all of the necessary factors already in place.

They are also not raiders. I imagine some anti-zombie things will be required, such as a fence and sleeping in a tree. Regardless, actually moving underwater is not that easy and, assuming these zombies sense by scent, they can't navigate there either. If it's frozen, then they can't get out from under the ice once they fall in. Until spring, anyway.

I'm not denying water would be an effective barrier. I'm saying that a random zombie floating downstream (humans tend to be neutrally to positively buoyant) might make landfall, and you need to account for that possibility. All you need is one hostile contact to turn you into one of them, and you're solo so your passive defenses need to be... well, really, really, really good. Passive defenses are insufficient defenses.

They also don't really have much in the way of coordination or intelligence, so they're not likely to actively attempt to reach some random island unless the residents are dumb enough to leave obvious signs of life, like light, loud noises, etc.

You don't need it to actively hunt you. You just need it to accidentally find you. This is a game where the odds are impossibly stacked against you and you need to fortify - which is, in fact, noisy - and account for that one in a million chance alongside the one in two chance.

Incidentally I'm also that guy who will shoot you in the leg and leave you for the zombies so i can get away if the situation calls for it. But hey, I'm a good shot and pretty good infiltrator so you still want me around most of the time.

You're not that good.

No, seriously. Put yourself in the position of someone who else in that group. If it were me, and you decided to shoot someone to feed him to the zombies so we could run away, I'd install a sunroof in your skull as soon as the bullet left your weapon. If you shot me, then one of my buddies would shoot you. You just proved yourself a greater threat than the zombies themselves. There is no virtue, no skill which can outweigh such a risk.

Dude, you're acting out every zombie movie ever. Stop trying to prove them right!

LOL well knowing that it wont be in the leg now will it? See, shoulda kept that to yourself huh?

... So basically, you'd fatally shoot your 'friend' for a passing, if any, advantage? This seems like a good idea? What's wrong with you?
What happens when the zombies catch up with you? What happens if you break a leg and there's nobody around to help you, but zombies are closing in because you just shot your only comrade?

I wouldnt exactly call "so the zombies dont eat me" cavalier. Its more of a Donner party moment.

No, it's cavalier. The Donner party only resorted to cannibalism after all other options had been exhausted. You appear to regard companions as an ablative meat-shield whose sole purpose is to die for your fleeting tactical advantage.

And anyway societies are rarely really cooperative even though thats the ideal they claim to strive for. Theres a pretty clear line that societies usually follow.

Despotism, (rule of the strong) which gives way to
Republic (rule of the worthy) Which degenerates to
Democracy (mob rule) Which inevitably devolves to
anarchy (no rule) from which arises
Despotism.

And so forth.

I would say zombie apocalypse certainly qualifies as anarchy so basic human nature is that the strong MUST rule in order to set the stage for better styles later on.

Wanna know how I can tell you're not at all that familiar with nation-building and social theory?
Basic human nature =/= amoral bloodlust. I'm the killer. I am the strong. That does not make me a good leader in any situation except combat. That makes me a good fighter, a good defender, someone who can use his strength in order to protect others so that they might in turn provide me goods and services I need.

[Maryring]

They really won't keep you around you know. There are plenty of intelligent and able people whom won't lose their moral compass the moment the Z arrive. And they will want to protect and help each other because that's the best thing for survival. You'll want to stay with at least a small group, because eventually you will require sleep. No matter how good you fancy yourself, you can't stay awake forever. And no one will want to stand guard over someone who has shown themselves to be selfish and unreliable.