LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

[golentan]

Would that be a Knazibble clad in naught but precious jewels?

I could live with that for a while, for the right alien.

That would be one option, to be sure. I was thinking more along the lines of elegant body paint and some "band" style accessories, but jewels would be nice as well. Not as deliciously traceable as body paint, but nice nonetheless.

Tangential note: Weiner Strikes Again! SMBC keeps throwing in LGBT couples where the fact they are LGBT is unrelated to the joke.

I approve of this.

Spoiler

Show

[Jimorian]

I've just had something happen that is opening my eyes a bit to what folks here probably go through on a regular basis, but not quite sure what to make of it just yet.

I decided to make another entry to a music video contest I've entered before, where filmmakers from around the world submit videos that can potentially become the official music video of major label artists. The site has run contests for Alicia Keyes, Moby, OMD, Duran Duran, and others. One entry I made was even a finalist for Norwegian techno-pop group Royksopp. Their current contest is for a song by Ringo Starr called "Wings".

So I start recruiting friends to help out in front of and behind the camera. The song is a pop love song, and as I take stock of friends available and willing to help, the best 2 people for the leads happen to be a couple of young women.

Now, I readily admit that I probably wouldn't have started thinking about the possibility except for the fact that they were in a relationship together, but after a moment's thought, it was logical to both the practical situation I was in, and the artistic vision I had for the song: a barista falls in love with a singer performing at the cafe, but is too afraid to start a conversation.

So, we shoot the video, I edit it down into something I'm very happy with, then upload it to the site for the contest. A few hours later, I get an e-mail saying "We're a platform for official music videos and we felt that the quality of your video wasn't up to the standard required for that." (quoted directly from the e-mail)

This was really disappointing, because making music videos is something that I've worked really hard at as part of the video and TV work I've done over the past 3 years, and I was looking forward to seeing how my work stood up against filmmakers from all over the rest of the world.

But as I see the videos that have been approved, I don't see works that are clearly better than mine, but instead, a mixed bag of works that do some things better than me, and some things worse. Nothing that stands out as exceptional or deserving of "official music video" status. Now, eventually there will be some stunning entries that absolutely deserve to win, and I never thought I had something that good yet, but I know this stuff well enough to put something solidly in the pack each time I enter.

So I wonder how much of their decision was based on content instead of quality, with the staff at the site who make this first cut not being comfortable with presenting my video to the record company and to Ringo as one of the options for them to watch and make a decision about.

Even if I didn't win, we all talked on the set about how it would be nice to see a positive-message video in the context of an event for one of the biggest pop stars on the planet.

So anyway, maybe you all can help me figure out whether this is just personal disappointment talking, or whether there's something more to the story.

My video of "Wings".
Where to see the other "approved" entries.

[Viera Champion]

(singing like Elan) Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, and distract from the discussion with cute picture of my boyfriend:

Spoiler

Show

[supernerd]

(singing like Elan) Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, and distract from the discussion with cute picture of my boyfriend:

Spoiler

Show

I was already super jelly, but now... You are so lucky! He's romantic and super cute! Best wishes again!

[KenderWizard]

Yeah, that. My first thought when I saw those memes on that page was "DENOUNCES PATRIARCHY--PERPETUATES KYRIARCHY".

Hey, maybe we should make a new "-ism" for anti-kyriarchy people. "Feminism" is just anti-patriarchy and that's only a part of the kyriarchy.

Yeah, it's a tricky one. I think, as I said before, most people come to denounce the kyriarchy via one of the other activist communities. Like I have come via feminism, a lot of people here would have come via LGBT+, and Asta appears to have come via Natalie-Reed-is-awesome-ism. Anyway, so then people identify first with their primary activism(s) and don't bother with a word that covers everything. But yes, it would be nice if there was one!

Yay, my more eloquent alter-ego has come to the rescue!

Well, no, that's not truly reasonable, if you're actually extending an honest hand to someone and someone completely different reveals they're a bigot and they reject your hand because someone else told them that they didn't want them.

Well, okay, it's not the perfect reaction that an entirely patient and 100% fair all the time person would have, but there is no such person. This is what happens:
Feminist: Trans people are welcome here!
Trans person shows up.
Bigoted "feminist": *hate speech*
Trans person: I don't have to put up with this. This isn't a safe space for me, it's another place where I have to put up with s**t. I will concentrate my energy elsewhere.

They're not saying "No, Kender, we refuse to be your friend because you call yourself a feminist and some other people who call themselves feminists have been bigoted towards us." They're saying "At the moment, trans people still have to put up with bigots if they want to engage in feminist spaces, and sometimes, we don't have the energy for that." Same way trans spaces often have sexist people, like Natalie Reed was saying in that link Asta had. As a group of movements, we're making a lot of progress to be more supportive of one another, but we're still in the process.

I think it's because boys become viewed as (potentially) violent hooligans much more quickly than girls do, as I recall being told to smile all the time by adults in many contexts until I was about 9 or 10.

Yeah, actually, it's the kind of thing one would do to someone who isn't physically threatening to oneself. Because it's a very dominant and rude thing to do. The fact that these men don't do it to men, typically, but to women and children kind of suggests they know on some level it's a rude and scary thing to do. Which is even worse than just being oblivious.

How did you know? Haha.
The reason: I don't have a vagina. >:|

That sucks. I guess they were worried that a young guy was just there to make fun. I can understand that if they wanted it to be a safe space, they would need to make sure that the people there would be respectful. But they should have talked to you to see if you had a genuine interest, if they were concerned about that. And if they weren't concerned about that, then they were just being silly.

It prolly doesn't help that during the time period I was living in Ireland, it was legal in my district to go about naked as long as nobody complained and I lived in a rural area. The few people who lived nearby didn't care, and my parents weren't usually home.

Was this for kids, or everyone? Because toddlers, yeah, that's normal, but I've never heard of that for adults!

[Serpentine]

Galahs are gorgeous and cute, and I love the shirt-suit colour combo, but I'm having trouble imagining a necktie that would accompany it.

Silver-grey bowtie?

[The Succubus]

I just found this rather wonderful quote in the Star Wars: The Old Republic thread on LGBTness in space:

Eh... they got tentacle-head people, slug people, blue people, green people, horned people, robot people, lightning-out-of-their-bare-hands people, jet-pack people, and eyeless-people-who-use-magic-to-see people. I figure gay people is probably not the biggest social issue they face.

[noparlpf]

I've just had something happen that is opening my eyes a bit to what folks here probably go through on a regular basis, but not quite sure what to make of it just yet.

I decided to make another entry to a music video contest I've entered before, where filmmakers from around the world submit videos that can potentially become the official music video of major label artists. The site has run contests for Alicia Keyes, Moby, OMD, Duran Duran, and others. One entry I made was even a finalist for Norwegian techno-pop group Royksopp. Their current contest is for a song by Ringo Starr called "Wings".

So I start recruiting friends to help out in front of and behind the camera. The song is a pop love song, and as I take stock of friends available and willing to help, the best 2 people for the leads happen to be a couple of young women.

Now, I readily admit that I probably wouldn't have started thinking about the possibility except for the fact that they were in a relationship together, but after a moment's thought, it was logical to both the practical situation I was in, and the artistic vision I had for the song: a barista falls in love with a singer performing at the cafe, but is too afraid to start a conversation.

So, we shoot the video, I edit it down into something I'm very happy with, then upload it to the site for the contest. A few hours later, I get an e-mail saying "We're a platform for official music videos and we felt that the quality of your video wasn't up to the standard required for that." (quoted directly from the e-mail)

This was really disappointing, because making music videos is something that I've worked really hard at as part of the video and TV work I've done over the past 3 years, and I was looking forward to seeing how my work stood up against filmmakers from all over the rest of the world.

But as I see the videos that have been approved, I don't see works that are clearly better than mine, but instead, a mixed bag of works that do some things better than me, and some things worse. Nothing that stands out as exceptional or deserving of "official music video" status. Now, eventually there will be some stunning entries that absolutely deserve to win, and I never thought I had something that good yet, but I know this stuff well enough to put something solidly in the pack each time I enter.

So I wonder how much of their decision was based on content instead of quality, with the staff at the site who make this first cut not being comfortable with presenting my video to the record company and to Ringo as one of the options for them to watch and make a decision about.

Even if I didn't win, we all talked on the set about how it would be nice to see a positive-message video in the context of an event for one of the biggest pop stars on the planet.

So anyway, maybe you all can help me figure out whether this is just personal disappointment talking, or whether there's something more to the story.

My video of "Wings".
Where to see the other "approved" entries.

Hmm. I'm no expert or anything, but in my humble opinion, yours was better than a few I watched, and worse than a few I watched. I dunno.

Yeah, it's a tricky one. I think, as I said before, most people come to denounce the kyriarchy via one of the other activist communities. Like I have come via feminism, a lot of people here would have come via LGBT+, and Asta appears to have come via Natalie-Reed-is-awesome-ism. Anyway, so then people identify first with their primary activism(s) and don't bother with a word that covers everything. But yes, it would be nice if there was one!

That was another reason I felt uncomfortable claiming to be a feminist. First, I was worried about being associated with "feminazis" (whoever made that word is a poop) and ignored just because of the label. But I also didn't like that it felt exclusionary to other groups, like LGBTA+, ethnic minorities, disabled people, poor people, and religious minorities. I think by the time I decided to adopt the label "feminist" I had reconciled it with those others too, because it doesn't make sense to me to promote equal rights for only one group, and therefore a feminist also ought to be promoting equal rights for everybody. Which might not be how it works in real life but that's how it works in my head.

Well, okay, it's not the perfect reaction that an entirely patient and 100% fair all the time person would have, but there is no such person. This is what happens:
Feminist: Trans people are welcome here!
Trans person shows up.
Bigoted "feminist": *hate speech*
Trans person: I don't have to put up with this. This isn't a safe space for me, it's another place where I have to put up with s**t. I will concentrate my energy elsewhere.

They're not saying "No, Kender, we refuse to be your friend because you call yourself a feminist and some other people who call themselves feminists have been bigoted towards us." They're saying "At the moment, trans people still have to put up with bigots if they want to engage in feminist spaces, and sometimes, we don't have the energy for that." Same way trans spaces often have sexist people, like Natalie Reed was saying in that link Asta had. As a group of movements, we're making a lot of progress to be more supportive of one another, but we're still in the process.

I'm not 100% patient and fair all the time (maybe only around 98%), but I know I would look at that and say, "Huh, just like any other group, feminists are a mixed bag." I wouldn't stay in that particular group of people because nobody should put themselves in a situation where they're unwelcome, but I also wouldn't denounce feminism as a whole just because of a few bigots. In some cases, people do denounce feminism as a whole just because of a few bigots. Hence words like "feminazi".

That sucks. I guess they were worried that a young guy was just there to make fun. I can understand that if they wanted it to be a safe space, they would need to make sure that the people there would be respectful. But they should have talked to you to see if you had a genuine interest, if they were concerned about that. And if they weren't concerned about that, then they were just being silly.

Well I was kind of confrontational about it. I heard that guys were getting kicked out, didn't have the full story if there was one, and went in to call BS. But before I got further than that I was beset from all sides by people attempting to explain to me why I couldn't be there. Mostly that I don't have a vagina. But anyway I never got a chance to explain my objection, which was, "Sure, I don't have a vagina and can't experience female sexuality firsthand, but that doesn't mean I can't be interested and want to learn more so I can better understand and empathise. And yes, I understand the concept of a safe space, but I'm asexual, and I try to be polite and mature during discussions like this, and quite frankly I have probably talked about subjects like this more than some of you." So among getting called an ******* and being told to leave, I stood there for five minutes waiting for them to finish so I could leave without seeming rude for walking out while somebody was in the middle of a sentence, and eventually I did anyway because they didn't seem likely to give me a chance to say anything.

Edit: And as for "young", I'm probably older than a good number of the kids there. This is an "early college". I'm actually one of the few kids who graduated from high school before coming here; I just graduated at a younger age because I started school early. And I definitely look older. The guy at CVS didn't even ask for a card when I gave a birthday that pegged me at twenty. Anyway, I'm nitpicking. Relative to this group, I'm not that young. In general, yes, I am.

Edit: And to top it off this morning my hair won't behave and I feel like butt. And not the good kind of butt.

[Asta Kask]

Well, okay, it's not the perfect reaction that an entirely patient and 100% fair all the time person would have, but there is no such person. This is what happens:
Feminist: Trans people are welcome here!
Trans person shows up.
Bigoted "feminist": *hate speech*
Trans person: I don't have to put up with this. This isn't a safe space for me, it's another place where I have to put up with s**t. I will concentrate my energy elsewhere.

They're not saying "No, Kender, we refuse to be your friend because you call yourself a feminist and some other people who call themselves feminists have been bigoted towards us." They're saying "At the moment, trans people still have to put up with bigots if they want to engage in feminist spaces, and sometimes, we don't have the energy for that." Same way trans spaces often have sexist people, like Natalie Reed was saying in that link Asta had. As a group of movements, we're making a lot of progress to be more supportive of one another, but we're still in the process.

And I wonder if we aren't sometimes falling victims to Geek fallacy #1. All ostracizers are evil.

This is from an outsider perspective - I am not a persecuted minority - but the way it would run is something like this: We form a minority organization because we are all ostracized for the same reason. We may not have much in common other than this, but this we share. It is then difficult for us to start ostracizing people that belong to our organization because they have other unpleasant characteristics - like misogyny, racism, transphobia, homophobia, etc., etc. Because that makes us like the people who ostracize us.

Perhaps the minority groups need to get better at branding prejudice as unacceptable and expel the prejudiced, or at least those who wear the prejudiec proudly on their sleeves.

Think there's something there?

[The Bandicoot]

(singing like Elan) Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, and distract from the discussion with cute picture of my boyfriend:

Spoiler

Show

*falls over with a nosebleed* squeee

[Mina Kobold]

I am transgender mtf. Thank you for continuing to use male pronouns.

And this is why I try to avoid gendered pronouns as often as possible. I do apologise if I ever did use an improper one, however.

Plus, it's fun to make eptithets and puns! :3

Which kind of makes me have to adress the Rincycle Bin pun, I kind of disagree with the notion that it has unfortunate implications. Sorry. ;_;

It's just that it kind of makes me imagine myself being in a work about hearing impairments, someone finding my name funny and making a pun on matches and showing a burning match dressed like me and then having people criticise them for implying that all people with hearing impairments should burn.

I am well aware that I face little discrimisation based on my impairment compared to that faced by people with disabilities, but it just seems patronising to fight a joke that seems to be merely a pun on their name and just as related to their disability as to their taste in ice cream. Sorry. m(_ _)m

I am rather poor at seeing the obvious implications of jokes, however. So please excuse me if I made a terrible mistake and do feel free to explain it to me.

[Serpentine]

As I pointed out in private, the vast majority of people do not know about that pun. To them, it's just a disabled girl in a rubbish bin. Even if someone is aware of the pun, it's still a disabled girl in a rubbish bin, and by all appearances still in pretty bad taste.
I have been informed that there is, in fact, an in-game context to that image, namely that it's based on something she herself says. Okay, in that case, it has context and may be pretty funny (I dunno, I haven't played the game). But, again, most people don't know about that - and the image indicates exactly nothing of it - and, still, it's a disabled girl in a rubbish bin.
When, a few years ago, a bunch of guys got on the Hey Hey It's Saturday reboot in blackface to do a Michael Jackson song, that was just a joke, and had all sorts of context (the people were of mixed ethnicities, it was a rehash and reversal of a popular sketch way back in the '80s, and so on). It still caused international outrage, and justifiably so.
I am no more offended by this image than I was by that Hey Hey sketch. That doesn't mean I don't think anyone else should be offended, that they're wrong to be, nor that it just isn't offensive.

[KenderWizard]

That was another reason I felt uncomfortable claiming to be a feminist. First, I was worried about being associated with "feminazis" (whoever made that word is a poop) and ignored just because of the label. But I also didn't like that it felt exclusionary to other groups, like LGBTA+, ethnic minorities, disabled people, poor people, and religious minorities. I think by the time I decided to adopt the label "feminist" I had reconciled it with those others too, because it doesn't make sense to me to promote equal rights for only one group, and therefore a feminist also ought to be promoting equal rights for everybody. Which might not be how it works in real life but that's how it works in my head.

The problem is, no one can do everything. Even a whole group of activists can't do everything. So yes, feminists, having presumably woken up to the idea that being at a disadvantage for an arbitrary reason is poopy, should try to use that experience when they come across racism, or religious discrimination, or whatever. But we're not required to give equal time to all other injustices in order to call ourselves feminist. Yes, the aim of feminism doesn't say anything about, say, ablism. Yes, feminism can succeed while ablism is still a problem. No, that doesn't mean feminism is exclusionary to disabled people. No, that doesn't mean there isn't important intersections between the two - for example, disabled people are often reliant on carers who are overworked and not supported well enough, and are disproportionately women. Activists for disabled people and feminists can and should work together to get more community support.

Feminism, or any single activism, is not responsible for trying to fix all injustices. It used to be much more exclusionary, mostly not intentionally, just because the only women who had enough privilege to fight this stuff were educated, middle-class, white women, but it's getting much better. It is a worthwhile thing on its own. It should work with other activists and be as welcoming as possible, because most people experience the intersection of one or more injustices, but it doesn't need to in order to be worthwhile.

I'm not 100% patient and fair all the time (maybe only around 98%), but I know I would look at that and say, "Huh, just like any other group, feminists are a mixed bag." I wouldn't stay in that particular group of people because nobody should put themselves in a situation where they're unwelcome, but I also wouldn't denounce feminism as a whole just because of a few bigots. In some cases, people do denounce feminism as a whole just because of a few bigots. Hence words like "feminazi".

Well, I think most people do continue to believe the things that drew them to whatever activism turned out to have bigots in it. Just because you decided you had too much to put up with to spend time in, say, a group that works against racism because it turned out quite a few people there were bigoted against gay people, doesn't mean you don't think racism is bad and work against it where you can.

You're right, I think a lot of people do shun the words, like saying "Of course I believe in gender equality and equal rights for women, but I'm not a feminist" like "feminist" is a bad word. And that's silly and doesn't help the movement as a whole.

Well I was kind of confrontational about it. I heard that guys were getting kicked out, didn't have the full story if there was one, and went in to call BS. But before I got further than that I was beset from all sides by people attempting to explain to me why I couldn't be there. Mostly that I don't have a vagina. But anyway I never got a chance to explain my objection, which was, "Sure, I don't have a vagina and can't experience female sexuality firsthand, but that doesn't mean I can't be interested and want to learn more so I can better understand and empathise. And yes, I understand the concept of a safe space, but I'm asexual, and I try to be polite and mature during discussions like this, and quite frankly I have probably talked about subjects like this more than some of you." So among getting called an ******* and being told to leave, I stood there for five minutes waiting for them to finish so I could leave without seeming rude for walking out while somebody was in the middle of a sentence, and eventually I did anyway because they didn't seem likely to give me a chance to say anything.

Edit: And as for "young", I'm probably older than a good number of the kids there. This is an "early college". I'm actually one of the few kids who graduated from high school before coming here; I just graduated at a younger age because I started school early. And I definitely look older. The guy at CVS didn't even ask for a card when I gave a birthday that pegged me at twenty. Anyway, I'm nitpicking. Relative to this group, I'm not that young. In general, yes, I am.

Edit: And to top it off this morning my hair won't behave and I feel like butt. And not the good kind of butt.

*hug* Sorry to hear you feel like a butt. Sounds like things were running high before you got there. It's a shame you didn't get a chance to explain yourself, but I imagine if there had already been trouble and you say yourself you went in confrontational, that the organisers were kind of freaking out.

And I wonder if we aren't sometimes falling victims to Geek fallacy #1. All ostracizers are evil.

This is from an outsider perspective - I am not a persecuted minority - but the way it would run is something like this: We form a minority organization because we are all ostracized for the same reason. We may not have much in common other than this, but this we share. It is then difficult for us to start ostracizing people that belong to our organization because they have other unpleasant characteristics - like misogyny, racism, transphobia, homophobia, etc., etc. Because that makes us like the people who ostracize us.

Perhaps the minority groups need to get better at branding prejudice as unacceptable and expel the prejudiced, or at least those who wear the prejudiec proudly on their sleeves.

Think there's something there?

Yeah, could be. Also that thing of feeling like you need all the people you can get so you can't throw anyone out.

I actually think geeky/nerdy culture can sometimes fall foul of this. Lots of nerds are bullied and such, but in the grand scheme of things, most nerdy environments are still male-dominated and male-centred, straight and cis dominant, very white and middle class. (That last one especially - RPG books are expensive!) So nerds often have that thing off "We don't ostracise, even if you're blatantly bigoted" without much experience of actually having to put up with serious lack of privilege that might give perspective.

[Asta Kask]

I actually think geeky/nerdy culture can sometimes fall foul of this. Lots of nerds are bullied and such, but in the grand scheme of things, most nerdy environments are still male-dominated and male-centred, straight and cis dominant, very white and middle class. (That last one especially - RPG books are expensive!) So nerds often have that thing off "We don't ostracise, even if you're blatantly bigoted" without much experience of actually having to put up with serious lack of privilege that might give perspective.

Absolutely. My gaming group is composed entirely of cis-hetero-male* people (as far as I know) and the jokes and discourse are suitable for that.

[noparlpf]

The problem is, no one can do everything. Even a whole group of activists can't do everything. So yes, feminists, having presumably woken up to the idea that being at a disadvantage for an arbitrary reason is poopy, should try to use that experience when they come across racism, or religious discrimination, or whatever. But we're not required to give equal time to all other injustices in order to call ourselves feminist. Yes, the aim of feminism doesn't say anything about, say, ablism. Yes, feminism can succeed while ablism is still a problem. No, that doesn't mean feminism is exclusionary to disabled people. No, that doesn't mean there isn't important intersections between the two - for example, disabled people are often reliant on carers who are overworked and not supported well enough, and are disproportionately women. Activists for disabled people and feminists can and should work together to get more community support.

Feminism, or any single activism, is not responsible for trying to fix all injustices. It used to be much more exclusionary, mostly not intentionally, just because the only women who had enough privilege to fight this stuff were educated, middle-class, white women, but it's getting much better. It is a worthwhile thing on its own. It should work with other activists and be as welcoming as possible, because most people experience the intersection of one or more injustices, but it doesn't need to in order to be worthwhile.

Well, I think most people do continue to believe the things that drew them to whatever activism turned out to have bigots in it. Just because you decided you had too much to put up with to spend time in, say, a group that works against racism because it turned out quite a few people there were bigoted against gay people, doesn't mean you don't think racism is bad and work against it where you can.

You're right, I think a lot of people do shun the words, like saying "Of course I believe in gender equality and equal rights for women, but I'm not a feminist" like "feminist" is a bad word. And that's silly and doesn't help the movement as a whole.

I completely agree with you, now. Those were mostly just my worries before I got over my fear of the word "feminist".
On the other hand, I do dislike that some people who are equal rights activists for one group still actively oppress other groups. You'd think there would be some more empathy due to similar experiences. Which is what I was saying in regards to the anti-trans feminists thing.

*hug* Sorry to hear you feel like a butt. Sounds like things were running high before you got there. It's a shame you didn't get a chance to explain yourself, but I imagine if there had already been trouble and you say yourself you went in confrontational, that the organisers were kind of freaking out.

I think I caught some kind of bug. I have a headache and my shoulders hurt and I hardly slept and my stomach is doing annoying things. Bluh.

Like I said, I went in without knowing whether there was more to it. I think if I'm feeling up to leaving my room later I'll try to find somebody who knows more about what was going on.

Yeah, could be. Also that thing of feeling like you need all the people you can get so you can't throw anyone out.

I actually think geeky/nerdy culture can sometimes fall foul of this. Lots of nerds are bullied and such, but in the grand scheme of things, most nerdy environments are still male-dominated and male-centred, straight and cis dominant, very white and middle class. (That last one especially - RPG books are expensive!) So nerds often have that thing off "We don't ostracise, even if you're blatantly bigoted" without much experience of actually having to put up with serious lack of privilege that might give perspective.

The people I play with here are all white, come to think of it. I wonder why almost nobody from other racial groups ever expressed interest in D&D. On the other hand, there are some trans or genderqueer kids who are interested, several girls, and some non-heterosexual people. But then this is a school where that's alright, and the administration is pretty strict about hate speech. (One freshman was kicked out in the first week of classes for constantly saying racist things to some of the black kids, not to mention asking everybody he met, on up to the RDs, where he could buy weed.)

[KenderWizard]

Absolutely. My gaming group is composed entirely of cis-hetero-male* people (as far as I know) and the jokes and discourse are suitable for that.

Yeah, even my close friends in the gaming/nerdy scene are known to sometimes say ridiculously sexist things (sometimes following up with "Oh, that doesn't apply to you, Kender. You're not like a real girl!" ). Or things that hurt my feelings as a bi person. I imagine it would be even worse if I was more of a girly-girl, or trans, or more "out" (I have heteronormative relationship privilege), not white, or not used to worse.

I completely agree with you, now. Those were mostly just my worries before I got over my fear of the word "feminist".
On the other hand, I do dislike that some people who are equal rights activists for one group still actively oppress other groups. You'd think there would be some more empathy due to similar experiences. Which is what I was saying in regards to the anti-trans feminists thing.

Yeah, you'd think so. I think we (as in, people) are getting better at it. People do talk about intersectionality and stuff. I mean, at the moment, it's only happening on super-liberal anti-kyriarchy blogs and such, but that's where these things grow from!

The people I play with here are all white, come to think of it. I wonder why almost nobody from other racial groups ever expressed interest in D&D. On the other hand, there are some trans or genderqueer kids who are interested, several girls, and some non-heterosexual people. But then this is a school where that's alright, and the administration is pretty strict about hate speech. (One freshman was kicked out in the first week of classes for constantly saying racist things to some of the black kids, not to mention asking everybody he met, on up to the RDs, where he could buy weed.)

Well, I'm reasonably sure the Irish gaming scene has very few people who aren't white at least partly because Ireland has few people who aren't white. (Unlike Britain - probably because we were historically poorer - we just didn't get people moving here until recently.) But I suspect it's also because overwhelmingly-white groups that are clique-ish and contain an element who relish that old-boy racist, sexist mentality are just not very welcoming to minorities.

[Serpentine]

With the racial aspect, I think it might be a wealth/class thing. Geekery, and gaming in particular, is pretty expensive. Most geeks and especially gamers, I believe, are middle class/at least moderately wealthy. Most middle class/at least moderately wealth people in our parts of the world are white. Thus, few non-white gamers/geeks.
Redistribute the wealth! Down with ingrained racial inequality! Geekdom needs more diversity! D:

Also: relevant.

[Heliomance]

I may be slightly addicted to KS. I've now played through two girls' paths back to back, pausing only for lectures and sleep, and am debating whether I want to go to gamesoc (late) or start a third.

[Ashen Lilies]

*takes cue to leap into the thread in all his non-white glory*

...
Of course, in my part of the world, that tends to be pretty common.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, even my close friends in the gaming/nerdy scene are known to sometimes say ridiculously sexist things (sometimes following up with "Oh, that doesn't apply to you, Kender. You're not like a real girl!" ). Or things that hurt my feelings as a bi person. I imagine it would be even worse if I was more of a girly-girl, or trans, or more "out" (I have heteronormative relationship privilege), not white, or not used to worse.

What. I mean, I say misogynistic things as a kind of ironic humor, but I do my best to show that I'm being sarcastic. (Of course then there's the problem of extremist views and satire of extremist views being very similar in appearance.) But making a sexist joke and then saying, "Oh wait but it's okay because you're not a real girl," is totally different. I'd rather they just make the sexist jokes and leave it at that.

Yeah, you'd think so. I think we (as in, people) are getting better at it. People do talk about intersectionality and stuff. I mean, at the moment, it's only happening on super-liberal anti-kyriarchy blogs and such, but that's where these things grow from!

Maybe my children's children will live in a Feminist Everyoneist Utopia where these views have become more mainstream!
(My current plan for having children involves donating to every sperm bank in the world. Making more of me is my way of trolling the future.)

Well, I'm reasonably sure the Irish gaming scene has very few people who aren't white at least partly because Ireland has few people who aren't white. (Unlike Britain - probably because we were historically poorer - we just didn't get people moving here until recently.) But I suspect it's also because overwhelmingly-white groups that are clique-ish and contain an element who relish that old-boy racist, sexist mentality are just not very welcoming to minorities.

My school has some Asians and blacks, and some other smaller minorities, but it is largely white. Unfortunately, the different ethnic groups tend to segregate themselves, which I noticed recently. Most of the Asian kids stick together, and most of the black kids stick together. I think only one black guy (and no other non-whites that I can remember) showed up to any of the D&D Club interest meetings, and he never managed to get into it because he was a day student, lives off-campus, and can't drive, so he couldn't stay late enough to play. :<
But we're cool about race and gender and sexuality and what have you. It's neat.

With the racial aspect, I think it might be a wealth/class thing. Geekery, and gaming in particular, is pretty expensive. Most geeks and especially gamers, I believe, are middle class/at least moderately wealthy. Most middle class/at least moderately wealth people in our parts of the world are white. Thus, few non-white gamers/geeks.
Redistribute the wealth! Down with ingrained racial inequality! Geekdom needs more diversity! D:

Also: relevant.

Gaming is expensive. Amusingly, though, the wealthiest people I knew back in high school were Indian or Middle-Eastern.

I shared that video on facebook.

[Mina Kobold]

As I pointed out in private, the vast majority of people do not know about that pun. To them, it's just a disabled girl in a rubbish bin. Even if someone is aware of the pun, it's still a disabled girl in a rubbish bin, and by all appearances still in pretty bad taste.
I have been informed that there is, in fact, an in-game context to that image, namely that it's based on something she herself says. Okay, in that case, it has context and may be pretty funny (I dunno, I haven't played the game). But, again, most people don't know about that - and the image indicates exactly nothing of it - and, still, it's a disabled girl in a rubbish bin.
When, a few years ago, a bunch of guys got on the Hey Hey It's Saturday reboot in blackface to do a Michael Jackson song, that was just a joke, and had all sorts of context (the people were of mixed ethnicities, it was a rehash and reversal of a popular sketch way back in the '80s, and so on). It still caused international outrage, and justifiably so.
I am no more offended by this image than I was by that Hey Hey sketch. That doesn't mean I don't think anyone else should be offended, that they're wrong to be, nor that it just isn't offensive.

That is a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me.

I do think that it's odd that you underline "It's still a disabled girl in a rubbish bin" about knowing the pun, though. Is there something other than accidentally implying that disabled people are rubbish? I really hope it's not something like why blackface is offensive (In that it was done to exclude a minority from a line of work)

On a less horrifying note than the thought of people actually being treated as rubbish, the trend of geek circles being uniform is quite peculiar. Perhaps geekdom is something that we might benefit from examining further?

[Asta Kask]

The problem is, no one can do everything. Even a whole group of activists can't do everything. So yes, feminists, having presumably woken up to the idea that being at a disadvantage for an arbitrary reason is poopy, should try to use that experience when they come across racism, or religious discrimination, or whatever. But we're not required to give equal time to all other injustices in order to call ourselves feminist. Yes, the aim of feminism doesn't say anything about, say, ablism. Yes, feminism can succeed while ablism is still a problem. No, that doesn't mean feminism is exclusionary to disabled people. No, that doesn't mean there isn't important intersections between the two - for example, disabled people are often reliant on carers who are overworked and not supported well enough, and are disproportionately women. Activists for disabled people and feminists can and should work together to get more community support.

It's the difference between support and commitment. A person can (and typically will) support many more causes than ze is committed to. I support feminism and the fight against racism, sanism, ablism, etc... but I'm really only personally committed to battling transphobia. And the reason is very simple - there are only 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. It's more effective to divide the labor and specialize in one or a few fields. And then have a few who transcend the boundaries between fields and coordinate when necessary.

But I'd like to discuss to what extent we should accept that people are imperfect and will have irrational prejudices and to what extent we should cleanse our organizations of prejudiced people. Any thoughts?

Edit: Oh, and Lil Shiro - here's for your date... *evil grin*

Spoiler

Show

he's back the man behind the mask
You're with your baby
And you're parked alone
On a summer night
You're deep in love
But you're deeper in the woods
You think you're doin' alright
Did you hear that voice
Did you see that face
Or was it just a dream
This can't be real
That only happens, babe
On the movie screen
Oh, but he's back
He's the man behind the mask
And he's out of control
He's back
The man behind the mask
And he crawled out of his hole
You're swimmin' with your girl
Out on lovers' lake
And the wind blows cold
It chills your bones
But you're still on the lake
That's a bad mistake
But the moon was full
And you had a chance
To be all alone
But you're not alone
This is your last dance
And your last romance
Oh, if you see him comin'
Get away if you can
Just keep on runnin'
Run as fast as you can
He's a dangerous, dangerous man
And he's out tonight
And he's watchin' you
And he knows you house
No, don't turn out the lights
Oh, but he's back
He's the man behind the mask
And he's out of control
He's back
The man behind the mask
And he crawled out of his hole

*hug*
You'll have a wonderful evening because you are a wonderful person.

[Coidzor]

Well, okay, it's not the perfect reaction that an entirely patient and 100% fair all the time person would have, but there is no such person. This is what happens:

Then it seems we just have differing definitions of "reasonable," I suppose.

Feminist: Trans people are welcome here!
Trans person shows up.
Bigoted "feminist": *hate speech*
Trans person: I don't have to put up with this. This isn't a safe space for me, it's another place where I have to put up with s**t. I will concentrate my energy elsewhere.

Your initial statements suggested a scenario more along these lines to me.

Feminist: Trans people are welcome here.
Trans person: *goes online, reads some blogs*
Bigot: *poorly spelled, inarticulate hate speech blog*

Trans person: You're [redacted], Feminist.
Feminist: wat

That, and if a feminist space is actively reaching out to trans people then it stands to reason that it would be unlikely to actively be out to waste its efforts by being bigoted to them as a body or to sanction members of that body doing it individually.

Yeah, actually, it's the kind of thing one would do to someone who isn't physically threatening to oneself. Because it's a very dominant and rude thing to do. The fact that these men don't do it to men, typically, but to women and children kind of suggests they know on some level it's a rude and scary thing to do. Which is even worse than just being oblivious.

It could suggest a whole lot of things, really. I don't pretend to understand the mindset of people who tell people who actively look miserable to smile and attempt to use the power of positive thinking to brainwash themselves into feeling better. Seems a tad irrational, and thus harder to grok rationally.

[Triscuitable]

I may be slightly addicted to KS. I've now played through two girls' paths back to back, pausing only for lectures and sleep, and am debating whether I want to go to gamesoc (late) or start a third.

This is the same thing I went through. Just be warned, you want the last route to be Lilly's or Rin's. The ending certainly has more impact than the other three. I abandoned a lot of what I was doing to finish the game, including my Deus Ex (ampersand) Human Revolution playthroughs. It is easily my favorite game ever, next to Viewtiful Joe and Human Revolution.

[Viera Champion]

My friend and I have just created The Gayest Thing on Tumblr.

[Coidzor]

My friend and I have just created The Gayest Thing on Tumblr.

The URL reminds me of Pony Vs. Pony.

[Reluctance]

My friend and I have just created The Gayest Thing on Tumblr.

It's safe to link here. That keeps the gayness down to a minimum. Let me advise you not to go looking for challengers if you value your sanity.

Your initial statements suggested a scenario more along these lines to me.

Feminist: Trans people are welcome here.
Trans person: *goes online, reads some blogs*
Bigot: *poorly spelled, inarticulate hate speech blog*

Trans person: You're [redacted], Feminist.
Feminist: wat

That, and if a feminist space is actively reaching out to trans people then it stands to reason that it would be unlikely to actively be out to waste its efforts by being bigoted to them as a body or to sanction members of that body doing it individually.

This dovetails beautifully with the discussion of nonwhites in nerddom. In theory, they're embraced with open arms. So long as they understand that they'll be judged against stereotypes by every new person they meet. And tokenized the hell out of. And understand that they're always peripheral to discussions about the people who really matter.

I'm not even touching on the race/culture intersection, where someone who grew up in an overwhelmingly latino community will come from a different place than someone who grew up in an overwhelmingly korean one. Only pointing out that "welcoming" means a lot more than leaving out a welcome mat and dialing back the obvious slurs.

It could suggest a whole lot of things, really. I don't pretend to understand the mindset of people who tell people who actively look miserable to smile and attempt to use the power of positive thinking to brainwash themselves into feeling better. Seems a tad irrational, and thus harder to grok rationally.

One could point out that both women and children are generally seen as ornamental. And check their assumptions by asking how often it happens to female CEOs, really twinky gay guys, dwarfs, etc. But anybody asking for more than the anecdotes (pardon, "lived experiences") of a few women is clearly a pawn of the patriarchy, seeking to silence women's voices.

[Lea Plath]

The person Rappy mentioned a few pages back was me and I just popped in to say thank you for your advice. I'm trying to be Lea Plath on the internet from now on.

Thank you again.

[Triscuitable]

The person Rappy mentioned a few pages back was me and I just popped in to say thank you for your advice. I'm trying to be Lea Plath on the internet from now on.

Thank you again.

Oh, please don't just pop in, stay a while. It's fantastic to see a friendly new face, and we're glad to have been able to help. Stick around, we're in the middle of brewing some coffee for the Americans here and TEA for the non-American/Canadian types. Weirdos .

[pffh]

Oh, please don't just pop in, stay a while. It's fantastic to see a friendly new face, and we're glad to have been able to help. Stick around, we're in the middle of brewing some coffee for the Americans here and TEA for the non-American/Canadian types. Weirdos .

*Pops back horned helmet* TEA you offer us TEA!? This is an outrage! You sir can prepare for a raid any day now and we expect proper alcohol, meat and cheese.

Also Shiro that is pretty gay (I think you might be homosex brah). Shame about the news on it though. The answer from the store was good but the fact that it happened at all is sad. I saw that story on the escapist a while back and some guy argued for over 70 pages that gay marriage should not be seen in toy stores because there are people that still believe that it's wrong.