Homebrew Paladin, do you think it is Tier 3?

[etrpgb]

Talking with my party we were thinking to change the Paladin so that is tier 3. Do you think it would be?


Changes:
Turn undead as a cleric of the same level (from level 4th).

Magic: casts impromptu Charisma-based Divine spells from the union of Paladin and Cleric list. If a spell appears in both lists, use the Paladin version. Spells per Day and Spells Known as the SRD Bard.

At level 7th get Battle Blessing as free feat.

Remove disease becomes per day instead per week.

4 skills points per level (possibly reworked skill list, we did not thought that much yet)

8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, 20th level Bonus Feat

List of possible bonus feats (most paladin-only feats):
Bane of Decay (DR337 p98)
Detoxifying Touch (DR337 p98)
Exalted Smite (BoED p42)
Extra Remove Disease (DR337 p98)
Extra Smiting (CWar p98)
Gift of Grace (BoED p43)
Hands of the Healer (BoED p43)
Improved Smiting (CDiv p82)
Ranged Smite Evil (BoED p45)
Silver Smite (Eb p60)
Smite Carrier (DR337 p98)
Smite Carrier (DR337 p98)
Strengthen Resilience (DR337 p98)
Touch of Silver (FoE p148)
Wholesome Fare (DR337 p98)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The casting alone pretty much bumps it to high T3. The improved chassis gives it a high optimization floor as well. It may cause problems in low-op groups, but I'm going to guess that's not a problem for your group.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Kind of the wrong forum, it should probably be in the Homebrew forums, but allow me some commentary:

I'm going to be comparing it with Bard here.

It's got a better BAB than a core Bard, on par with Bardblade without the IC optimization potential. It's got a strong spell selection at the same time. Bards actually have a quite strong spell list, with a lot of battlefield control and buffing ability, Paladin's new spell list has a LOT of buffing ability, including a whole bunch of 'NO' immunities (Freedom of Movement, Death Ward), and can be used with DMM: Persist to make a Mr. No fairly easily.

The big thing here is Turn Undead vs Inspire Courage. IC with DFI optimization is pretty boss. Turn Undead can be used to DMM or DSP, but while he's a more powerful caster than before, I'm not sure if he can really effectively leverage it for anything while still being able to be an effective melee presence. It may well be too big a feat sink, which is always a concern for a melee class.

Remove Disease is still a pointless ability, so there's absolutely no reason to not PrC out after about level 5.

I'd probably give him a choice of Fighter bonus feat list or Divine feats in addition to the others on your list.

Without Domain access, I'd probably call this new Paladin a Tier 3 class. He gets access to Heal, some strong buffs, and can be set up to be a solid Tank. The Divine Spell equivalent of the Crusader.

[etrpgb]

IC? DFI? DSP? Can you please extend your acronym? Not everyone is English you know :(

I know DMM though...

[LordBlades]

IC? DFI? DSP? Can you please extend your acronym? Not everyone is English you know :(

I know DMM though...

IC = Inspire Courage
DFI= Dragonfire Inspiration
DSP= Divine Spellpower

[Killer Angel]

The casting alone pretty much bumps it to high T3.

That, and the quickened cast. A solid T3, I would say.

IC? DFI? DSP? Can you please extend your acronym? Not everyone is English you know :(

I know DMM though...

This won't cover all the acronyms you'll hear around here, but it's an help.

[etrpgb]

Remove Disease is still a pointless ability, so there's absolutely no reason to not PrC out after about level 5.

I'd probably give him a choice of Fighter bonus feat list or Divine feats in addition to the others on your list.

It seems a little too harsh, the 7th level ability of casting faster is fairly interesting in my opinion.
The idea of the bonus feats were making smite evil and remove disease more interesting, yet I guess it might not be enough for going to level 20.

[Person_Man]

The 7th level ability is a Feat that already exists called Battle Blessing, from Complete Champion. Although IIRC it's fairly high level. 7th level is too soon for Quickened anything.

Yes, 3/4 casting + full BAB + Special Mount + Share Spells ability + other stuff = Tier 3. (And the Quickened spells on top is a bit overkill). But I think the class as you propose it is (like the core Paladin and other classes in general) poorly paced.

Signature abilities (Sneak Attack, Rage, spells, soulmelds, vestiges, maneuvers, etc) should begin at level 1. Class abilities should get better at higher levels, not just replicate low level abilities (bonus Feats, addition uses of Smite/Remove Disease, etc). And every class should have a meanginful capstone.

[Ernir]

Power-wise, probably OK.

Still lacks juicy stuff for the higher levels. (Person_Man said it well.)

The 7th level ability is a Feat that already exists called Battle Blessing, from Complete Champion. Although IIRC it's fairly high level. 7th level is too soon for Quickened anything.

It only requires "ability to cast Paladin spells". =/

[etrpgb]

Battle Blessing! I knew it! Thanks for info, it is not high level at all anyway.