Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[Tanuki Tales]

This close to the deadline, it's not worth it to try and make a race just like the Warforged simply to fit an archetype. I guess I'll start trying to find a way to make Android fit...

Stupid f#$%ing robots...


Although I do find it slightly amusing that a site with a big homebrew section is more of a stickler for copyright than Paizo.com. Their Conversions forum is filled to the brim with copyright violations of this nature, especially Warforged conversions.

EDIT: If I simply remove the link to the conversion, would it still be a copyright issue for posting on its own? As I have seen countless PF homebrew on this site have warforged archetypes or favored class options.

Well, is there anyway that you can have the archetype apply to any creature with the Construct type and the proper mental score?

I'd go into some explanation concerning that amusement, but it'd require discussing copyright law, which could be construed as legal advice, which is a major no-no by forum rules. Suffice to say though: The GitP staff, specifically Roland St. Jude, are some of the strictest Moderators and Administrators I've ever come across.

As for removing the link and keeping the reference....I'll ultimately leave that up to the decision of the other contestants if they feel that violates the "Pathfinder material only" rule of the contest.

[zhdarkstar]

I just want to apologize if I came off the wrong way or offended you in any way with the posts. I'm just a big fan of Warforged. My favorite PC was a Artificer/Spellcaster using the Dual-class rules I found here that turned Woeforged (my own template) partway through the campaign. That's why I got all excited about making the archetype for Warforged.

I have no experience with the android race nor any real idea of their lore. The description in the ISB doesn't really give me much to go off of. If you could point in the direction of materials that help give the androids some kind of back story, that would be very appreciated.

EDIT: Would it be okay with everyone if I made it a racial archetype for both Warforged and Androids? The reason I ask is because I don't want to lose the Warforged-based lore, and it would be written such that the Warforged are the "Wily Wars Era" super fighting robots and the Androids are the Reploid equivalents.

EDIT 2: Rewrote lore connecting both races to the archetype. Major overhaul of the buster system concept. Obfuscated the riddle.

[SamBurke]

And, I'm actually trying to get all of the GEAR from BS:I into that 4th post.

We'll see if I can make the deadline... if not, the class is still fairly solid, but I would LOVE to get the whole picture from the game.

@Tanuki: You should play it. I just watched LPs, but it is a FANTASTIC game, with some of the best play AND some of the best story in the history of gaming. It is not a "must have", it is not a "crime if you don't have," it is a, "you do not know the potential or the abilities of the shooter or RPG genres unless you have played this game."

@Copyright: Well, this forum is a safehaven. I've seen almost NO negative commenting, anywhere, ever. So, that's the price we pay for security and peace.

[SamBurke]

Also, new question: I'm writing up a conversion of alllllllllll of the items found in Bioshock Infinite, for submission, but I'm using the original names. Do those names need to be changed? Can the words "Sugar Rush", referring to a shirt that gives move bonus when you eat, even be copyrighted in any appreciable way?

Thoughts, guys?

[Tanuki Tales]

Also, new question: I'm writing up a conversion of alllllllllll of the items found in Bioshock Infinite, for submission, but I'm using the original names. Do those names need to be changed? Can the words "Sugar Rush", referring to a shirt that gives move bonus when you eat, even be copyrighted in any appreciable way?

Thoughts, guys?

You should be fine. But if it worries you that much, go ahead and change the names.

And I can't answer a lot of your question since it's a forum no-no.

[gr8artist]

Well, I completely forgot about character specialization options in PF classes. Guess I need to do some more work.
Hopefully I'll have it done on time.
And guys, might want to double check that your pictures are OK to use.

[SamBurke]

Well, I completely forgot about character specialization options in PF classes. Guess I need to do some more work.
Hopefully I'll have it done on time.
And guys, might want to double check that your pictures are OK to use.

DANG. Looking at all those options show up makes me happy inside.

Big Ole Burkeapproval on that! I hope you get it done, too!

I should have the gear up later today, maybe tomorrow morning.

Tanuki, will there be an extension, based on a lot of entries that need to be polished up?

[gr8artist]

Biskamatar:

Crunch:
I like the idea of the abilities here. Giving a bonus when you get one, extending spell durations, taking a spell's damage and adding it to yours... But I have two problems.

1. Not many options. This class doesn't get many cool things to do in combat, and only one to do out of combat. I see that the bolded entries are the new abilities... look at how few there are after the first couple of levels. Filling the dead levels was a good touch, but I'm alllllllways weary of Bonus Feats being used to do that.

2. Underpowered. What with the bonus feats and all, the class doesn't seem to *do* a lot. Some levels (9, 12, 15, 18, etc, etc) you only get a 5' extension of your Arcane Aegis. While that's a cool feature, +5 feet is hardly a level's worth of advancement... Plus, it doesn't quite live up to the fluff: the idea is to enhance magic, and there are a lot of ways you *could* do it, but don't. Perhaps a pool of points that allows him to temporarily increase the caster level, or remove the damage cap on a spell, or increase the number of targets, or shape it, or allow it to also hit someone they're melee-ing with, or any number of other cool (and crunchy!) abilities.

I lied about only two.

3. No Choice. Now, a lot of 3.5 classes didn't give a choice, but the one thing I keep harping about in Pathfinder is choice. Every base class has a choice pretty much every other level, if not more often, of things they can do. Each character is distinctly individual. This class, however, has very little customization, or option to choose. That's fine, but it's got SO MUCH potential, I can barely stand it.

Seriously. This class has a great theme, with some great abilities as the groundwork. I'd love to see this thing pick up and take the win. Perhaps you could look back at the cool abilities the Biskamatar got in the FF games, try 'n steal some more of that awesome?

Fluff:
Whilst I've never played the Final Fantasy games, the purpose and use of this class comes through loud and clear. I'm the guy who loves playing Buffs'n'Heals, and this class talks about how great it is at buffing. Pray, tell me more!

The real thing is: does that fluff line up with that crunch?


Overall/Balance/Suggestions
Balance doesn't seem like a problem. Everything looks good.

But please, please, please, unleash the full potential here! I know there isn't a ton of time, but do.

Thanks for the feedback. I'd try and look over yours more in-depth, but I've been up way to late already. Anyway, I touched up the class, I'd like to see what everyone thinks now.
Crunch: I feel like there's a lot more "crunch" now. A lot of interesting game mechanics to work with, along with some tried-and-true ole' reliables.
1: We've got more options now. Basically, every 3 levels, you pick a specialty or sub-class and gain a new ability from there. You can't take the same one over and over every chance, so you'll have to split between at least 2 of the 3 (commando, ravager, sentinel). It works out so you can have 1/3/3 or 3/4 depending on preference. I suppose I could take off the limit and let you go all 7 in one category, but I'm not sure. Thoughts?
2: I think I added in more power. It's still not a wizard, doesn't have those options, but in turns battlefield control into child's play. Specifically, look at the abilities "launch", "ravager's rush", and "mighty guard". And his arcane training now helps him stop wizards from casting (although he still has to reach them)
3: Kinda' hand in hand with options now, we've got a lot more choice than we had before. Granted, before, you had a whole bunch of combat feats to pick from, but now you get to pick cool abilities.
Fluff: I was a little unsure what to do here, but I think the ravager ability set kinda' sets you up for what you're looking for. And enduring magic can now eventually support your team-mates, too. I wanted to give him everything I could just short of actual magic spells.
Balance: Not sure about it now. Nothing I added is as strong as a wizard gets at that level, but I don't think comparing balance to a wizard is what we're shooting for...

I hope you see the potential you were looking for. I'm still open to suggestions for feats/feat balance/new abilities/etc.

False Prophet:

Spoiler

Show

Love the ideas, but I think you need to re-evaluate what you have now under the light of simple-minded/happy-go-lucky players. There's a lot of math, convoluted formulas (damage redirects from RtS come to mind) and other such headaches that make me hesitant to want to play this class. It's bad enough coming back to a character that has 2 types of energy/ability use limits after a week without play and trying to remember what I can do. With all of the optional boosts/different vigors/charge options, I feel that I'd have to have a small flowchart or something to make the most of the class.
And that makes me sad. I love the mechanics you have, I would just advise that you streamline the process somehow.
1: Rolling shield at the start of every encounter? I don't have 9d4 on me, so late game that's going to be like rolling initiative 10 or more times.
2: Salts are a valuable commodity early on, but they freebie refill after every fight? I'm going to throw devil's kiss at everything. Free suped-up fireball for every fight? and no fire immunity after level 7? Haha.
3: The Vigors themselves need more description on their specific effects.
How long does BB last?
Where do the extra fireballs from DK go, how far, and how big an explosion when they get there? Half on successful save? or none?
Charge: Immediate attack, that can get me away from charging lion-totem-barbarians? Yes please.
Murder of crows: is that 1/3 levels? Great ability though, love it.
Why does possession work on technology? and what is "technology" in DnD?
RtS: Absorbs up to half your *current* shield per turn, for 1 turn per level, and can redirect a third of that? So the amount it can absorb reduces every round, effectively? For me, simple things like "half damage" or "DR 10" work better, but I might just be weird. I like as little math at the table as possible.
SJ: What if they succeed the save?
Undertow has the most amazing knockback effect ever.
Vigor boosts: I assume the second tier boosts are the ones that are centered. Do we need to pay salt for the T1 to use the T2? If so, the salt cost gets really high.

All in all, I love the idea of the class, but I think it needs more clarity.

[SamBurke]

Thanks for the feedback. I'd try and look over yours more in-depth, but I've been up way to late already. Anyway, I touched up the class, I'd like to see what everyone thinks now.
Crunch: I feel like there's a lot more "crunch" now. A lot of interesting game mechanics to work with, along with some tried-and-true ole' reliables.
1: We've got more options now. Basically, every 3 levels, you pick a specialty or sub-class and gain a new ability from there. You can't take the same one over and over every chance, so you'll have to split between at least 2 of the 3 (commando, ravager, sentinel). It works out so you can have 1/3/3 or 3/4 depending on preference. I suppose I could take off the limit and let you go all 7 in one category, but I'm not sure.

I hope you see the potential you were looking for. I'm still open to suggestions for feats/feat balance/new abilities/etc.

OH. YES.

That thing looks BEAUTIFUL now, and, barring further update, will be stealing away my first place vote like an idiotic girl in a teen vampire's arms.

I like the fact that the abilities are interchangeable, IE, you are FORCED to choose from several different ones. Perhaps you could have an archetype which is only *able* to choose from one of the 3, but gets some small benefit?

Those sub-options reaaaaally puts the last shine on the class, IMO.

False Prophet:
Love the ideas, but I think you need to re-evaluate what you have now under the light of simple-minded/happy-go-lucky players. There's a lot of math, convoluted formulas (damage redirects from RtS come to mind) and other such headaches that make me hesitant to want to play this class. It's bad enough coming back to a character that has 2 types of energy/ability use limits after a week without play and trying to remember what I can do. With all of the optional boosts/different vigors/charge options, I feel that I'd have to have a small flowchart or something to make the most of the class.

I definitely see your point. Most of my mechanics are very complicated the first time around, and then more simple. I agree that I need to simplify further, to make it easier to use...

My best suggestion is that I'll clean it up, AND the players should write down the DCs.

1: Rolling shield at the start of every encounter? I don't have 9d4 on me, so late game that's going to be like rolling initiative 10 or more times.

I've changed this to be rolled the first time it's obtained, like HP.

2: Salts are a valuable commodity early on, but they freebie refill after every fight? I'm going to throw devil's kiss at everything. Free suped-up fireball for every fight? and no fire immunity after level 7? Haha.

Most of the boosts are fairly expensive, and Devil's Kiss only deals damage as if it was a normal fireball, in a smaller blast area.
3: The Vigors themselves need more description on their specific effects.
How long does BB last?
Where do the extra fireballs from DK go, how far, and how big an explosion when they get there? Half on successful save? or none?
Charge: Immediate attack, that can get me away from charging lion-totem-barbarians? Yes please.
Murder of crows: is that 1/3 levels? Great ability though, love it.
Why does possession work on technology? and what is "technology" in DnD?
RtS: Absorbs up to half your *current* shield per turn, for 1 turn per level, and can redirect a third of that? So the amount it can absorb reduces every round, effectively? For me, simple things like "half damage" or "DR 10" work better, but I might just be weird. I like as little math at the table as possible.
SJ: What if they succeed the save?
Undertow has the most amazing knockback effect ever.
Vigor boosts: I assume the second tier boosts are the ones that are centered. Do we need to pay salt for the T1 to use the T2? If so, the salt cost gets really high.

All in all, I love the idea of the class, but I think it needs more clarity.
[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
MORE COMING. NOT DONE!

[SamBurke]

OH. YES.

That thing looks BEAUTIFUL now, and, barring further update, will be stealing away my first place vote like an idiotic girl in a teen vampire's arms.

I like the fact that the abilities are interchangeable, IE, you are FORCED to choose from several different ones. Perhaps you could have an archetype which is only *able* to choose from one of the 3, but gets some small benefit?

Those sub-options reaaaaally puts the last shine on the class, IMO.


I definitely see your point. Most of my mechanics are very complicated the first time around, and then more simple. I agree that I need to simplify further, to make it easier to use...

My best suggestion is that I'll clean it up, AND the players should write down the DCs.


I've changed this to be rolled the first time it's obtained, like HP.
Most of the boosts are fairly expensive, and Devil's Kiss only deals damage as if it was a normal fireball, in a smaller blast area.

3: The Vigors themselves need more description on their specific effects.

I don't think I understand... is it unclear what they do?

How long does BB last?

Ah, fixed. Now it's 1d4 turns.

Where do the extra fireballs from DK go, how far, and how big an explosion when they get there? Half on successful save? or none?

They go to any target within 20' of an edge of Devil's Kiss (including inwards, actually!), and only deal damage to the target chosen. This was specified in the wording.

As to save, I'll specify that in the vigors section, with the following wording: "If the Vigor deals damage, it is halved on a successful save."

Charge: Immediate attack, that can get me away from charging lion-totem-barbarians? Yes please.

My goal is that each ability has its own uses, good parts, and bad. Charge/Possession are great Out of Combat, and have some IC use as well.

Murder of crows: is that 1/3 levels? Great ability though, love it.

It is, yes. Fixed for ease of viewing.

Why does possession work on technology? and what is "technology" in DnD?

It works like that cause of Bioshock Infinite. In BS:I, it ONLY works on Tech until you get a boost... but there's not many machines or gates or anything. For "technology" I would say anything that has moving parts... doors, locks, machines, magical tech...

RtS: Absorbs up to half your *current* shield per turn, for 1 turn per level, and can redirect a third of that? So the amount it can absorb reduces every round, effectively? For me, simple things like "half damage" or "DR 10" work better, but I might just be weird. I like as little math at the table as possible.

It is now Damage Reduction. SIMPLE!

SJ: What if they succeed the save?

Damage is halved, as above.

Undertow has the most amazing knockback effect ever.

It's even better in the game, because there are railings EVERYWHERE, so people get thrown off... so it's one of the more powerful. It's also the 7th/8 obtained, so... balance.

Vigor boosts: I assume the second tier boosts are the ones that are centered. Do we need to pay salt for the T1 to use the T2? If so, the salt cost gets really high.

You can activate whichever boost you choose to. You must POSSESS the pre-requisite Boost in order to obtain the second tier, but you don't have to use its salts. I'll clarify that under Vigor Boosts.

All in all, I love the idea of the class, but I think it needs more clarity.
[/SPOILER]

Welp, hopefully that cleans up most of the problems... what other clarity issues did you see? I'd like to clean it up as much as possible, as I know it's a little rough.

[zhdarkstar]

Other than coming up with a better way to list the vigor boost tiers, I see nothing else that needs clarifying. It took me a reread of the class to realize that the center aligned boosts were the second tier.

With 19/88 different boosts available by level 20, this class is practically a system unto itself. Even if there was an Extra Boost feat, you'd barely be able to scratch the surface of the amount of builds possible.

My hat's off to you, sir. It was totally worth the wait.

[gr8artist]

After the competition, we may want to make new threads for our builds, for more detail and nitpicking.
As it is, I think we're all good enough to compete, except for the unfinished cursed knight
Anyway, I might suggest what Tanta was saying about the SFR - Make it applicable to any construct. That way, it's less campaign/race specific, unless that's what you were going for.
As for a replacement name for the "False Prophet"... Perhaps "Vigorist" or "Meta-psion". Or you could add in some fluff about his abilities manipulating waves or threads of energy, call him the "wavebender" or somesuch.
Right now, his Vigors are obviously unnatural phenomenon that one cannot acquire through only physical training, so the (Ex) tag seems out of place. Perhaps make them spell-like or psionic abilities? And is there anything that prevents you from starting with bucking bronco/undertow at first level? Also, you need to clarify what exactly provokes, and for how long, when an opponent is pulled toward you with Ut.
As for the "Tiers"... just do away with them. List in any T2 boosts the specific names of the T1 boosts that you must possess. Also, you may want to look and see if you can consolidate the boosts, ie one that doubles duration, that could apply to BB, MoC, RtS, and Pos.

Also, Tanta... We're done voting for next month's contest, right? It will be "Origin of Species"?

[zhdarkstar]

Anyway, I might suggest what Tanta was saying about the SFR - Make it applicable to any construct. That way, it's less campaign/race specific, unless that's what you were going for.

A) I like having it be race specific as the lore serves as a psuedobridge between the two "living" construct races. I'm fairly certain Paizo created the Androids with elements of the Warforged in mind, but couldn't say much due to copyright.

B) I would have had to go through most of the constructs in the bestiary to determine what would be the qualifiers and how badly this class's features could be abused. So I stuck with the two major PC construct races that are 0HD to keep it simple.

EDIT: Is there a specific cutoff time? As I have one more deed swap I'd like to make, but I'll wait until after the contest to do so, if need be.

[Tanuki Tales]

Also, Tanta... We're done voting for next month's contest, right? It will be "Origin of Species"?

Yes. Sorry. Next month's theme will be Origin of Species. And as soon as I get a chance, I'll be doing last month's trophies (I have to rush around a bit today to try and get my Pathfinder game started).

@Zhdarkstar: Cut off time is tonight at 11:59 pm EST.

[zhdarkstar]

Sweet. I was afraid I wasn't going to find out before I had to go to work.

Dash Boots have been added as a Gunslinger's Dodge variant that works against melee and has no armor restriction for an increase in grit point cost mechanic. I left in the part about it being treated as Gunslinger's Dodge for the sake of Gunman's Duster.

[Razanir]

This time for sure. School has let out for the summer, I should theoretically be able to actually finish, edit AND submit an entry for once. My question, though. Are non-literal interpretations of the theme allowed. Like can we evolve things other than species?

[Deviston]

14 more "seru" as promised. Now, time to rest my liquified brain. 43 creatures is tuuuuur muuuuurch!

[SamBurke]

Holy CRAP, man.

I thought I could get stuff done fast... wow...

[zhdarkstar]

Just reclassified Mega Buster as a Grit feat and included Fast Musket as a bonus deed, because it makes sense that having a two-handed firearm in your arm should make it a little bit easier to reload. Therefore, if you have Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, and TWF, you could dual wield muskets at -6/-6. Not a bad payoff if you ask me. DM discretion is advised when using it in a game with advanced firearms as it could lead to unbalance.

EDIT: Not sure what this site's policy is on posting links to character sheets (I'll take the links down if I'm in violation) but I came up with two sample android NPCs for my friend to throw at my old gaming group. These aren't going to be added to the SFR until after the contest as I just want these to exist as reference documents for DMs and players to get ideas for builds. In their current state, they are more suited to be used as bosses against an evil party, however both can easily be given a new name (X as Bass, Zero as Omega) if used as evil bosses. This is because their stats are on a higher point buy and their busters exceed WBL by a country mile.

With further ado, I present to you X and Zero!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7yz7eq8v58uj723/X.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxasl363ytydl7i/Zero.pdf

[iTookUrNick]

After the competition, we may want to make new threads for our builds, for more detail and nitpicking.
As it is, I think we're all good enough to compete, except for the unfinished cursed knight

Med School has been eroding my Homebrewing time.
Fortunately, I see many others have succeeded where I failed. Good luck to all the participants, and may the best one prevail!

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, new thread is up and everything everyone!

I'll update the first post and get out the trophies from the previous voting thread some time later today.

[gr8artist]

I'm debating what to make my entry. I'm thinking the pre-historic ancestors of kobolds.
They'd be medium sized, intelligent, and proud. But they'd be getting picked off by bigger lizards because they're so fearless. So only the cowardly hiders would survive.
Thus, their heritage would never be the same.
If I went this route, should I make them a race or a creature? I suppose I could do a low-CR creature, then put the racial build in spoilers for extra info, but my entry would be the creature. I might switch it to a race if the majority of entries are creatures.

Would anybody be interested in seeing this?

[Deviston]

Make it a creature with a "X as characters" entry at the end like the other monstrous races.

[Tanuki Tales]

Would anybody be interested in seeing this?

Me!

And what Deviston said.

[SamBurke]

As for a replacement name for the "False Prophet"... Perhaps "Vigorist" or "Meta-psion". Or you could add in some fluff about his abilities manipulating waves or threads of energy, call him the "wavebender" or somesuch.
Right now, his Vigors are obviously unnatural phenomenon that one cannot acquire through only physical training, so the (Ex) tag seems out of place. Perhaps make them spell-like or psionic abilities? And is there anything that prevents you from starting with bucking bronco/undertow at first level? Also, you need to clarify what exactly provokes, and for how long, when an opponent is pulled toward you with Ut.
As for the "Tiers"... just do away with them. List in any T2 boosts the specific names of the T1 boosts that you must possess. Also, you may want to look and see if you can consolidate the boosts, ie one that doubles duration, that could apply to BB, MoC, RtS, and Pos.

-The reason I put is as EX is faithfulness to source material. In game, they show up as literal bottles of power-granting liquid, with no "magic" about them... it's a form of pseudo-science, along with the floating city et all.

-There is nothing to prevent you from having BB/UT at first level. My personal choice for a combo at Level 1 would be different (Possession, Devil's Kiss), but that is possible.

-The charged ability of UT can be activated just like any other charged ability. Nothing "provokes" it, you just decide to use the ability.

-The reason I did tiers is for ease of reading and understanding. It makes more sense to me visually, and is easier to understand. That said, I will actually explain it when I put up the finished class elsewhere.

-I specifically decided against consolidating boosts. 1st, there are few that could do so. 2nd, it would throw off the balance to do so (some boosts would be valuable for more than one vigor, as opposed to individualized), and 3rd, that would step a bit farther away from source material.

[Tanuki Tales]

So, how is everyone doing?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So, how is everyone doing?

Pretty good! I think I'm making breakthroughs on some personal projects, and that is a serious relief!

[SamBurke]

Busy IRL, so I will *not* be entering anything into this month's contest.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Busy IRL, so I will *not* be entering anything into this month's contest.

Ah end of the year times.

[SamBurke]

Ah end of the year times.

Actually, a summer x3speed course.