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2012-04-16, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
That was perhaps the best defense of the endings I have yet read but it's primary defense points out their greatest failing. Relying on Out of story info to cover the gaps and logic of the Catalyst. There are other points I would make against it but I am going to stick with this one. I am aware of the Fermi Paradox, the Drake Equation, the Grey Goo theory, Von Neumann Devices etc. However none of these are presented in universe or in story. This is fiction, its bound by the limits the author sets for itself. They never excluded these things but never included them either to introduce them as central tenants of life in this universe at the last second still breaks Suspension of Disbelief at a time where they were counting on it the most.
Also please do not use "Vocal Minority" it is a dismissive term usually meant to push critics to the fringe.I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-16, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I stick to my view about the ending - even if the DLC answers the nagging questions and actually tells us about the consequences of the finale, the Catalyst's motivation and sudden appearance make little to no sense. Unless they expand on it and manage to salvage this "I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you don't get killed by synthetics" nonsense, I will remain dissatisfied.
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2012-04-16, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Exactly. To be fair, that is a legitimate point. If those last five minutes were up to the level of the rest of the game, Bioware's heads would be so big from all the praise they'd probably explode - because the rest of the game WAS brilliant, which is why the contrast of that ending hit most people so hard.
(I mean for crying out loud - they have me playing MULTIPLAYER - something under every other circumstance I won't touch with a barge pole.)
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2012-04-16, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
;)
For me, those were minor "huh, that's weird" situations; not negative, just a neutral puzzlement, quibble if you will. They didn't detract from the endings completeness for myself and although I'm curious to see how they're resolved, I don't need them explained.
I had much more of a problem with the painfully annoying Kai Leng as well as having to constantly fight Cerberus.
Oh most definitely. I hit the exact sweet spot because I didn't realistically consider any of the other options. The Destroy ending requires no further explanation, no real questions. Push button, all Reapers go boom. Synthesis makes my head split.
I also am a naturally optimistic person, so I subscribed to the decades of hardship followed by a flourishing, rather than the thousand year old Dark Ages with trillions of deaths.Last edited by Joran; 2012-04-16 at 05:05 PM.
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2012-04-16, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I had zero problems with the ending, except that it's dumb and I hate it.
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2012-04-16, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Yep. The author of that article assumes that the problem is that fans aren't aware of the "esoteric astrobiology" the authors were taking for granted. Well, no... I am aware of it. It's just not brought in to the story in any way. If that's really what they wanted the ending to be about then that makes their failure greater.
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2012-04-16, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The responses from Bioware I've seen about how their new DLC will "clarify" without damaging the "artistic integrity" of the existing ending is only cementing the damage. It sounds like a Bioware high-up has staked their ego on that ending and is prepared to see the franchise burn before admitting they screwed up.
It's sad really. Bioware wanted to move from the Forgotten Realms in NWN to make their own equivalent IP, and with the Mass Effect universe they managed to create that. They could have made spin-offs for years, maybe decades. Now they've let it all blow up (in player choice of colours!) in the name of "artistic integrity". I guess they really do believe it isn't art without a sacrificial ending.
Edit: Was the writer in charge of the ending the one who thought it would be a good idea to put that darn kid in throughout the game? That was so hilariously cheesy.Last edited by Trazoi; 2012-04-16 at 06:30 PM.
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2012-04-16, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Know what else is science fiction? Time travel. So if we are taking out of source ideas and applying them to mass effect...
THEN MARAUDER SHIELDS AND THE THREE HUSKETEERS ARE ACTUALLY GARRUS, JOKER AND BOTH ASHLEY AND KAIDEN FROM A TWO DIFFERENT FUTURES WHERE SYNTHESIS IS ACTUALLY THE HUSKING PROCESS!!!
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2012-04-16, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-16, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-16, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
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2012-04-16, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I was actually pleasantly surprised by the ending. I had heard all the terrible feedback, but wanted to save judgement for myself. I picked the asplodey ending, myself, and I think it worked okay. I admit, the way they went about it wasn't entirely graceful, but my brother had already beaten the game, and told me the red side meant boom.
I liked the fact that it wasn't utterly black or white, which i had expected given that this is Mass Effect we're dealing with, and i think the consequences to my choice were reasonable, narratively.
Alright, Lightning Child kinda came out of nowhere, but I knew the Citadel was a bit unpredictable having played the first. Certainly better than Giant Terminator from ME2.
And on the ad campaign, It draws attention to what I consider a great game, and I find it amusing, myself.
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2012-04-16, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The more I have thought about it, I like the Astrobiology explanation. However at no point prior to the endings would these things have even been broached. The Catalyst was using the term "Synthetics" which was always used to refer to the likes of the Geth and EDI. In a broader sense of the term it does include nanites, grey goo and Von Neumann Devices. However those are never introduced as being part of the story. Had they taken that time and shown how the reapers are a controlled form of Grey Goo then that would have worked. But they did not.
This is resultant of 2 things. 1 The fact that the Catalyst paints in such a broad stroke so as to say Synthetic vs Organic, so as to include the geth and EDI as part of its definition, which creates confusion when you can count them as friends and allies. So on most playthroughs most people have spent significant time erasing the concept of Synthetic = Enemy. Only to have it once more thrown at us as an inescapable truth. The Catalyst speaking the absolute "The Created rebel against their Creators" represents this problem, as it is a direct call back to the geth conflict, further cementing the idea that the geth are part of the problem. If it was meant to be a specific type of Synthetic then it should have been designated as such. And this all is compounded by the second problem.
And 2, introducing these things in the final moments breaking the Dramatic Arc. The Thessia VI states that the pattern appears to not be at the direction of the reapers, but never gives a sense of what the pattern actually is. Nor does it actually state that the reapers carry any benevolent sense to them. The foreshadowing of this final inescapable conflict is non-existent. The known synthetic uprisings are the geth and Javik's story of his cycle. We see the geth conflict in the server and how they chose not to commit genocide and the story of the last cycle only occurs because of the reapers. At no point are the Astrobiological concepts introduced as part of the pattern. The Reaper cycle is presented and fleshed out well over the course of the series. This new pattern is hinted at but never defined nor described. And coming from a single cryptic exchange prior to the endings. And then described in the simplest of terms at the ending makes it break all narrative form to that point. If someone else had not pointed out that these astrobiology concepts fit, I would never have put them in as they were never part of the story before. And all this before we get to the points about how these are not accepted in our world as inevitable either.Last edited by Derthric; 2012-04-16 at 07:39 PM.
I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-16, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Previous Avatars:
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Originally Posted by The Lost Eyeball
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2012-04-16, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
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2012-04-16, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-16, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
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2012-04-16, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Ah. That's a little disappointing, but forgiveable, I suppose. It's tough to show area of affect things without an explosion
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2012-04-16, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-16, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-16, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-16, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Last edited by Derthric; 2012-04-16 at 09:02 PM.
I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-16, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The new DLC better remove those ending cutscenes, or at least differentiate them a bit more. Also, death robots flying away usually isn't a good sign. I would assume that I was about to be bombarded from orbit.
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2012-04-16, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The easiest fix would be to cut out the Starkid sequence entirely, end the game with the moving scene with Anderson and Shepard in the Citadel, press the button to activate the Crucible, Reapers destroy animation (cut off before the relays destroyed and the Normandy part). Then do a slideshow with text describing what happens to everyone tailored to all the choices in the game. And unless the EMS is woefully low, Shepard survives.
The ending will still feel an anticlimax full of plot holes but it would at least feel like an ending that doesn't sucker punch you in the gut.
Ideally I'd like the DLC to replace the Citadel with a whole mission much like the ending Suicide Mission in ME2 but I know that's way too much to expect.
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2012-04-17, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
"Overcome with wonder" was my interpretation. Rather than merely watching the Reapers die or fly away (Destroy or Control, respectively) they can all understand each other and the soldiers know exactly why the Reapers are leaving.
"Push button, destroy Reapers, roll credits" has to be the most boring resolution I've seen repeatedly put forward for the series.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2012-04-17, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Originally Posted by Psyren"
However it at least it would have:
A) Made sense
B) Not been in a sharp, sudden change in the characterisation of Shepard.
C) Left some minimal sense of agency over the outcome of the story.
Huge improvement. It would have merely been bad instead of inexcusably and irredeemably awful.Last edited by Mr.Moron; 2012-04-17 at 09:52 AM.
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2012-04-17, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
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2012-04-17, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2012-04-17, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
It wouldn't be quite as bad, but I think cutting the Starkid entirely (and epilogues) would have gone down much better. Or if they wanted a choice at the end, have TIM make a solid argument for Control. (I don't think Synthesis could be saved.)
But since it might be hard to record new lines now, cutting out the Starkid is the simplest solution. I don't think Bioware are going to do it though, and I strongly suspect their improved ending DLC isn't going to do much to win my trust back.
Alternatively they could end with this Mass Effect 3 song.
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2012-04-17, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I think their biggest mistake was destroying the ME relays.
Law of Conservation of Detail says that everything in the story must serve a purpose. So if you make a point of showing the Relays being destroyed, people are going to assume that is important. The "Galactic Dark Age" Theory makes perfect sense, if you assume the destruction of the Relays is significant, a galactic dark age with stranded fleets is the most logical consequence of no more Relays. If destroying the relays has no real importance, then why was that included at all?
So, once you assume the Galactic Dark Age, that undoes all the work you did resolving the plotlines on Tuchanka and Rannoch. Yes they never SAY there is a galactic dark age, but it's the logical consequence of destroying the Relays. Their explanation out-of-game makes sense: People could have developed better FTL drives, but they didn't because the Relays were more convenient. Now that the Relays are destroyed they'll make them. It makes sense, but it's not the sort of thing you would assume based on what the Game shows. Without the Galactic Dark Age, we kind of know what happens, Wrex goes back to Tuchanka and leads the Krogan, the Geth and/or the Quarians go back to Rannoch and try to rebuild.
Of course, if we're cutting down the ending, we might as well just end with Anderson and Shepard sitting on the Citadel, watching the Crucible dock.