Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Derthric]

As I routinely say, not all the fans hated the endings. Their statement in the ad is accurate - the response has been loud, and it is all the louder because not everyone is shouting the same thing, nor will they - ever.



Zero problems? No, of course not; the endings are inadequate, so I'm looking forward to the EC as much as everyone else is. The difference is that I'm so close to being satisfied already that they'd really have to drop the ball to upset me, and I doubt that's going to happen.

The endings quite simplyhave more potential than the vocal minority are willing to give them credit for. And while I can agree that it is a failing to force the fans to fill in the blanks of your narrative themselves, many fans choose to fill those blanks anyway - just with the gloomiest, dreariest doomsday scenarios they can conjure up instead.

That was perhaps the best defense of the endings I have yet read but it's primary defense points out their greatest failing. Relying on Out of story info to cover the gaps and logic of the Catalyst. There are other points I would make against it but I am going to stick with this one. I am aware of the Fermi Paradox, the Drake Equation, the Grey Goo theory, Von Neumann Devices etc. However none of these are presented in universe or in story. This is fiction, its bound by the limits the author sets for itself. They never excluded these things but never included them either to introduce them as central tenants of life in this universe at the last second still breaks Suspension of Disbelief at a time where they were counting on it the most.

Also please do not use "Vocal Minority" it is a dismissive term usually meant to push critics to the fringe.

[Morty]

I stick to my view about the ending - even if the DLC answers the nagging questions and actually tells us about the consequences of the finale, the Catalyst's motivation and sudden appearance make little to no sense. Unless they expand on it and manage to salvage this "I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you don't get killed by synthetics" nonsense, I will remain dissatisfied.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, the quote actually DOES reflect well on the game, just not in the way they want it to.

The Fan Outcry isn't just because the ending sucked. Borderland's ending sucked and they weren't sued, Deus Ex Human Revolution did the Ending-tron 8000, but there was no massive fan campaign.

The Fan Reaction is because we got so invested in the game, it reflects the game's ability to draw you in and make you care, and then, when you're on the edge of your seat...it asks you to pick a color.

Exactly. To be fair, that is a legitimate point. If those last five minutes were up to the level of the rest of the game, Bioware's heads would be so big from all the praise they'd probably explode - because the rest of the game WAS brilliant, which is why the contrast of that ending hit most people so hard.

(I mean for crying out loud - they have me playing MULTIPLAYER - something under every other circumstance I won't touch with a barge pole.)

[Joran]

No offense but it made me laugh when you said "zero problems with the ending" and then immediately afterward say "except for the common nit picks".

;)

For me, those were minor "huh, that's weird" situations; not negative, just a neutral puzzlement, quibble if you will. They didn't detract from the endings completeness for myself and although I'm curious to see how they're resolved, I don't need them explained.

I had much more of a problem with the painfully annoying Kai Leng as well as having to constantly fight Cerberus.

Spoiler

Show

I think they were hoping for more reactions like yours. You filled in the blanks to make the story fit your desired outcome. And for you it worked.

The problem comes with blanks being filled in by such a large and disparate group of people that turmoil is inevitable. Look at the looooong debate Psyren and I have had about the potential Galactic Dark Age. Or on how without lasting peace synthesis is just body horror, my stance.

If they had just had us hit the button kill the reapers and the Relays went, without the Catalyst then I think it would have worked better. But so many blanks and plot twists are introduced in such a short time. 14 lines of Dialogue expound an idea mentioned only a handful of times, extrapolate it into the final definition of the a conflict spanning a trilogy and wrap it up all at once. That's a recipe for disaster.

Oh most definitely. I hit the exact sweet spot because I didn't realistically consider any of the other options. The Destroy ending requires no further explanation, no real questions. Push button, all Reapers go boom. Synthesis makes my head split.

I also am a naturally optimistic person, so I subscribed to the decades of hardship followed by a flourishing, rather than the thousand year old Dark Ages with trillions of deaths.

[Fawkes]

I had zero problems with the ending, except that it's dumb and I hate it.

[kamikasei]

There are other points I would make against it but I am going to stick with this one. I am aware of the Fermi Paradox, the Drake Equation, the Grey Goo theory, Von Neumann Devices etc. However none of these are presented in universe or in story. This is fiction, its bound by the limits the author sets for itself.

Yep. The author of that article assumes that the problem is that fans aren't aware of the "esoteric astrobiology" the authors were taking for granted. Well, no... I am aware of it. It's just not brought in to the story in any way. If that's really what they wanted the ending to be about then that makes their failure greater.

[Trazoi]

What they've said so far is not really helping the polarized community. Many are taking it as either self-righteous justification or a simple middle finger to their fans. Many are seeing it as a chance to do it right this time around.

I personally sit in the second camp. The ending wasn't without merit, really. It was just really poorly done. If they take the time to do it right (and if they have the space for the resources), they have an opportunity to make it work.

I really want to see them do it, I really do. I'm not holding my breath, though. Their attitude on this fiasco hasn't seemed to change since day 2, when they were so hurt that we were too dumb to see their artistic brilliance.

The responses from Bioware I've seen about how their new DLC will "clarify" without damaging the "artistic integrity" of the existing ending is only cementing the damage. It sounds like a Bioware high-up has staked their ego on that ending and is prepared to see the franchise burn before admitting they screwed up.

It's sad really. Bioware wanted to move from the Forgotten Realms in NWN to make their own equivalent IP, and with the Mass Effect universe they managed to create that. They could have made spin-offs for years, maybe decades. Now they've let it all blow up (in player choice of colours!) in the name of "artistic integrity". I guess they really do believe it isn't art without a sacrificial ending.

Edit: Was the writer in charge of the ending the one who thought it would be a good idea to put that darn kid in throughout the game? That was so hilariously cheesy.

[LordShotGun]

Yep. The author of that article assumes that the problem is that fans aren't aware of the "esoteric astrobiology" the authors were taking for granted. Well, no... I am aware of it. It's just not brought in to the story in any way. If that's really what they wanted the ending to be about then that makes their failure greater.

Know what else is science fiction? Time travel. So if we are taking out of source ideas and applying them to mass effect...

THEN MARAUDER SHIELDS AND THE THREE HUSKETEERS ARE ACTUALLY GARRUS, JOKER AND BOTH ASHLEY AND KAIDEN FROM A TWO DIFFERENT FUTURES WHERE SYNTHESIS IS ACTUALLY THE HUSKING PROCESS!!!

[Luzahn]

Know what else is science fiction? Time travel. So if we are taking out of source ideas and applying them to mass effect...

THEN MARAUDER SHIELDS AND THE THREE HUSKETEERS ARE ACTUALLY GARRUS, JOKER AND BOTH ASHLEY AND KAIDEN FROM A TWO DIFFERENT FUTURES WHERE SYNTHESIS IS ACTUALLY THE HUSKING PROCESS!!!

Well, yeah. Wasn't that implied?

[LordShotGun]

Well, yeah. Wasn't that implied?

Well it is completely obvious to me and everyone else that doesn't see my artistic vision can go **** themselves.

Spoiler

Show

/playful sarcasm

[Fawkes]

The responses from Bioware I've seen about how their new DLC will "clarify" without damaging the "artistic integrity" of the existing ending is only cementing the damage. It sounds like a Bioware high-up has staked their ego on that ending and is prepared to see the franchise burn before admitting they screwed up.

And that high-up would pretty much have to be Casey Hudson.

Should've put Patrick Weekes in charge.

[Partof1]

I was actually pleasantly surprised by the ending. I had heard all the terrible feedback, but wanted to save judgement for myself. I picked the asplodey ending, myself, and I think it worked okay. I admit, the way they went about it wasn't entirely graceful, but my brother had already beaten the game, and told me the red side meant boom.

I liked the fact that it wasn't utterly black or white, which i had expected given that this is Mass Effect we're dealing with, and i think the consequences to my choice were reasonable, narratively.

Alright, Lightning Child kinda came out of nowhere, but I knew the Citadel was a bit unpredictable having played the first. Certainly better than Giant Terminator from ME2.

And on the ad campaign, It draws attention to what I consider a great game, and I find it amusing, myself.

[Derthric]

The more I have thought about it, I like the Astrobiology explanation. However at no point prior to the endings would these things have even been broached. The Catalyst was using the term "Synthetics" which was always used to refer to the likes of the Geth and EDI. In a broader sense of the term it does include nanites, grey goo and Von Neumann Devices. However those are never introduced as being part of the story. Had they taken that time and shown how the reapers are a controlled form of Grey Goo then that would have worked. But they did not.

This is resultant of 2 things. 1 The fact that the Catalyst paints in such a broad stroke so as to say Synthetic vs Organic, so as to include the geth and EDI as part of its definition, which creates confusion when you can count them as friends and allies. So on most playthroughs most people have spent significant time erasing the concept of Synthetic = Enemy. Only to have it once more thrown at us as an inescapable truth. The Catalyst speaking the absolute "The Created rebel against their Creators" represents this problem, as it is a direct call back to the geth conflict, further cementing the idea that the geth are part of the problem. If it was meant to be a specific type of Synthetic then it should have been designated as such. And this all is compounded by the second problem.

And 2, introducing these things in the final moments breaking the Dramatic Arc. The Thessia VI states that the pattern appears to not be at the direction of the reapers, but never gives a sense of what the pattern actually is. Nor does it actually state that the reapers carry any benevolent sense to them. The foreshadowing of this final inescapable conflict is non-existent. The known synthetic uprisings are the geth and Javik's story of his cycle. We see the geth conflict in the server and how they chose not to commit genocide and the story of the last cycle only occurs because of the reapers. At no point are the Astrobiological concepts introduced as part of the pattern. The Reaper cycle is presented and fleshed out well over the course of the series. This new pattern is hinted at but never defined nor described. And coming from a single cryptic exchange prior to the endings. And then described in the simplest of terms at the ending makes it break all narrative form to that point. If someone else had not pointed out that these astrobiology concepts fit, I would never have put them in as they were never part of the story before. And all this before we get to the points about how these are not accepted in our world as inevitable either.

[TheLaughingMan]

I was actually pleasantly surprised by the ending. I had heard all the terrible feedback, but wanted to save judgement for myself. I picked the asplodey ending, myself, and I think it worked okay. I admit, the way they went about it wasn't entirely graceful, but my brother had already beaten the game, and told me the red side meant boom.

I hope you like those explosions in blue and green!

THEN MARAUDER SHIELDS AND THE THREE HUSKETEERS ARE ACTUALLY GARRUS, JOKER AND BOTH ASHLEY AND KAIDEN FROM A TWO DIFFERENT FUTURES WHERE SYNTHESIS IS ACTUALLY THE HUSKING PROCESS!!!

AND ALSO CLONING SOMEHOW!

[Partof1]

I hope you like those explosions in blue and green!

I don't know what you mean. Is that the other ending?

[Luzahn]

I don't know what you mean. Is that the other ending?

Visually, the ending cutscenes are nearly identical, except for the colors of the explosions.

[Trazoi]

Visually, the ending cutscenes are nearly identical, except for the colors of the explosions.

All six endings simultaneously.

[Partof1]

Ah. That's a little disappointing, but forgiveable, I suppose. It's tough to show area of affect things without an explosion

[Derthric]

Ah. That's a little disappointing, but forgiveable, I suppose. It's tough to show area of affect things without an explosion

Its not so much that its an explosion but a reuse of assets with such little derivation.

If you liked it you liked it, so don't let em beat up on you.

[Luzahn]

All six endings simultaneously.

Wait, why would the soldiers cheer for Control, but not Synthesis? I assumed they were just cheering at the reaper being broken apart in Destroy.

[Trazoi]

Wait, why would the soldiers cheer for Control, but not Synthesis? I assumed they were just cheering at the reaper being broken apart in Destroy.

That's because they are the Reapers and the Reapers are them.

It's deep.

[Derthric]

Wait, why would the soldiers cheer for Control, but not Synthesis? I assumed they were just cheering at the reaper being broken apart in Destroy.

*shrugs* because they now understand everything by the power of grey skull! green Dark Energy?

Honestly who knows. There are so many things wrong with everything about the endings that two guys not cheering is the least of these.

[Luzahn]

The new DLC better remove those ending cutscenes, or at least differentiate them a bit more. Also, death robots flying away usually isn't a good sign. I would assume that I was about to be bombarded from orbit.

[Trazoi]

The new DLC better remove those ending cutscenes, or at least differentiate them a bit more.

The easiest fix would be to cut out the Starkid sequence entirely, end the game with the moving scene with Anderson and Shepard in the Citadel, press the button to activate the Crucible, Reapers destroy animation (cut off before the relays destroyed and the Normandy part). Then do a slideshow with text describing what happens to everyone tailored to all the choices in the game. And unless the EMS is woefully low, Shepard survives.

The ending will still feel an anticlimax full of plot holes but it would at least feel like an ending that doesn't sucker punch you in the gut.

Ideally I'd like the DLC to replace the Citadel with a whole mission much like the ending Suicide Mission in ME2 but I know that's way too much to expect.

[Psyren]

Wait, why would the soldiers cheer for Control, but not Synthesis? I assumed they were just cheering at the reaper being broken apart in Destroy.

"Overcome with wonder" was my interpretation. Rather than merely watching the Reapers die or fly away (Destroy or Control, respectively) they can all understand each other and the soldiers know exactly why the Reapers are leaving.

The easiest fix would be to cut out the Starkid sequence entirely, end the game with the moving scene with Anderson and Shepard in the Citadel, press the button to activate the Crucible, Reapers destroy animation (cut off before the relays destroyed and the Normandy part). Then do a slideshow with text describing what happens to everyone tailored to all the choices in the game. And unless the EMS is woefully low, Shepard survives.

"Push button, destroy Reapers, roll credits" has to be the most boring resolution I've seen repeatedly put forward for the series.

[Mr.Moron]

Push button, destroy Reapers, roll credits" has to be the most boring resolution I've seen repeatedly put forward for the series.

It wouldn't just be boring, it'd be stupid, silly and disappointing.

However it at least it would have:

A) Made sense
B) Not been in a sharp, sudden change in the characterisation of Shepard.
C) Left some minimal sense of agency over the outcome of the story.

Huge improvement. It would have merely been bad instead of inexcusably and irredeemably awful.

[BRC]

It wouldn't just be boring, it'd be stupid, silly and disappointing.

However it at least it would have:

A) Made sense
B) Not been in a sharp, sudden change in the characterisation of Shepard.
C) Left some minimal sense of agency over the outcome of the story.

Huge improvement. It would have merely been bad instead of inexcusably and irredeemably awful.

I would go with "Mediocre" instead of "Bad". As has been pointed out, the whole game can be seen as the Ending. Had they just checked the "Destroy Reaper" box people wouldn't have been blown away, but they would have been satisfied.

[Psyren]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.

[Trazoi]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.

It wouldn't be quite as bad, but I think cutting the Starkid entirely (and epilogues) would have gone down much better. Or if they wanted a choice at the end, have TIM make a solid argument for Control. (I don't think Synthesis could be saved.)

But since it might be hard to record new lines now, cutting out the Starkid is the simplest solution. I don't think Bioware are going to do it though, and I strongly suspect their improved ending DLC isn't going to do much to win my trust back.

Alternatively they could end with this Mass Effect 3 song.

[BRC]

Well, as a general rule I'm in favor of the controversial option over the "safe" one. I think that had they taken the time to include proper squadmate/LI epilogues, and show that there was not a galactic dark age after your choices (instead of merely dismissing it via Twitter) then the hue and cry wouldn't have been nearly as vociferous as it is now even with the endings otherwise unchanged.

I think their biggest mistake was destroying the ME relays.
Law of Conservation of Detail says that everything in the story must serve a purpose. So if you make a point of showing the Relays being destroyed, people are going to assume that is important. The "Galactic Dark Age" Theory makes perfect sense, if you assume the destruction of the Relays is significant, a galactic dark age with stranded fleets is the most logical consequence of no more Relays. If destroying the relays has no real importance, then why was that included at all?


So, once you assume the Galactic Dark Age, that undoes all the work you did resolving the plotlines on Tuchanka and Rannoch. Yes they never SAY there is a galactic dark age, but it's the logical consequence of destroying the Relays. Their explanation out-of-game makes sense: People could have developed better FTL drives, but they didn't because the Relays were more convenient. Now that the Relays are destroyed they'll make them. It makes sense, but it's not the sort of thing you would assume based on what the Game shows. Without the Galactic Dark Age, we kind of know what happens, Wrex goes back to Tuchanka and leads the Krogan, the Geth and/or the Quarians go back to Rannoch and try to rebuild.


Of course, if we're cutting down the ending, we might as well just end with Anderson and Shepard sitting on the Citadel, watching the Crucible dock.