League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo

[toasty]

Just poking my head into the triforce discussion, I disagree on Nasus.

Nasus should not rush triforce, that's true. But it is core on him. Nasus's weakness is kiting, even with wither. Triforce gives him a MS bonus and a slow. He builds around his q which is an onhit ability, which means it benefits heavily from sheen proc. Mana is good for more q's. His e has a 1.2 ap scaling (or something like that). Damage and health are always nice. The only semiwasted stat is attack speed, and even then, he uses it with his lifesteal and attack damage steroid from his ultimate.

No. You are wrong.

Nasus should not build Triforce because Triforce is a damage item and Nasus does not need damage. Nasus should build Frozen heart and Shurelias. Shurelias solves the kiting problem. If you are really crazy try Ghost/Flash or Ghost/Heal or Ghost/Teleport. Probably a FoN or Aegis for more tanky. At this point he should consider damage and at this point Triforce is good. But it is highly unlikely he will reach that point in the game. Ever.

If you want some damage, build a sheen. That's it though.

edit: Let me actually break this down a little bit more.

Sheen: Sheen is really good on Nasus. Build it if you want.
Phage: You don't need Phage. Nasus' base attack speed isn't high enough to justify Phage IMO. If you want to be faster, Ghost/Shurelias are good ideas. Especially Shurelias because it builds from Philo, which you should build, as you need some mana regen. Basically Shurelias > Phage
Zeal: Completely useless. You don't need Crit, because you don't have attackspeed. You don't need Attackspeed because your damage comes almost entirely from a spell that is CDR, not attackspeed, reliant. Build CDR instead. Shurelias gives CDR. Frozen Heart. Spirit Visage (which stacks with your passive), CDR boots even.

So... basically, unless its super late game and you have nothing to buy, have 40%CDR, boots 2, 200MR/Armor and 2k HP, you don't want to buy Triforce. Games that go on that late are so rare they should be considered an anomaly.

[Math_Mage]

Does anyone here have any insight on AD Kennen? My AD carry builds tend to change a lot based on game.

Also, is running him this way foolish and silly (like a grown man with his head in a bell), or can it compete with other AD's?

(The two games I've done it, we won lane hard, but lost because someone else on their team got fed and couldn't get focused down in teamfights.)

I typically run flat AD reds and quints, along with armor/MR. I like 9 in Utility for movespeed, energy, and more red buff; but I could certainly see a number of rune combinations, as long as at least 21 points in Offense are involved. Now, Kennen is a kiting champion with amazing base AS and his W steroid, but no AS steroid. To me, that says early Phantom Dancer after some cheap damage items (Doran's Blades, maybe a Wriggle's). Trinity Force is certainly another possibility, just not one I prefer. GA is extremely powerful for deflecting aggro.

No. You are wrong.

Nasus should not build Triforce because Triforce is a damage item and Nasus does not need damage. Nasus should build Frozen heart and Shurelias. Shurelias solves the kiting problem. If you are really crazy try Ghost/Flash or Ghost/Heal or Ghost/Teleport. Probably a FoN or Aegis for more tanky. At this point he should consider damage and at this point Triforce is good. But it is highly unlikely he will reach that point in the game. Ever.

If you want some damage, build a sheen. That's it though.

edit: Let me actually break this down a little bit more.

Sheen: Sheen is really good on Nasus. Build it if you want.
Phage: You don't need Phage. Nasus' base attack speed isn't high enough to justify Phage IMO. If you want to be faster, Ghost/Shurelias are good ideas. Especially Shurelias because it builds from Philo, which you should build, as you need some mana regen. Basically Shurelias > Phage
Zeal: Completely useless. You don't need Crit, because you don't have attackspeed. You don't need Attackspeed because your damage comes almost entirely from a spell that is CDR, not attackspeed, reliant. Build CDR instead. Shurelias gives CDR. Frozen Heart. Spirit Visage (which stacks with your passive), CDR boots even.

So... basically, unless its super late game and you have nothing to buy, have 40%CDR, boots 2, 200MR/Armor and 2k HP, you don't want to buy Triforce. Games that go on that late are so rare they should be considered an anomaly.

Frozen Heart, Shurelya's, FoN, Treads, Aegis/Zeke's, and Trinity is Nasus' typical build. Just because it's finished late doesn't mean it's not an item for him.

[toasty]

Frozen Heart, Shurelya's, FoN, Treads, Aegis/Zeke's, and Trinity is Nasus' typical build. Just because it's finished late doesn't mean it's not an item for him.

Discounting Zekes and Triforce you're already at 11k gold. Even assuming double gold/10 and optimal farm its highly unlikely you will ever buy the entire Triforce. its likely you'll never get past the Sheen.

I think my statement still stands. The amount of times that Triforce is a realistic, optimal, option on Nasus is low. Low enough to discount it as a "core" item for his kit. His Core is Frozen Heart, Shurelias, and FoN.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I think my statement still stands. The amount of times that Triforce is a realistic, optimal, option on Nasus is low. Low enough to discount it as a "core" item for his kit. His Core is Frozen Heart, Shurelias, and FoN.

I can't help but think you're WAY to binary with this stuff. I don't consider FoN core on Nasus at all, for example...and I'd prioritize TriForce over it in most games I play. I'm not saying you're wrong...but I am saying that you are WAY to black & white about things in League, from my perspective.

[Ziren]

ICorki+Ez: Its situational at best, honestly, building standard AD is probably better.

The main benefit of building triforce over PD (Triforce never replaces IE) is that you can just skip the Doran's Blades and build a Phage instead. Especially since the nerf to Doran's Blade this seems a lot more attractive to me.

[dgnslyr]

Hrm, I've never thought of it that way, since PDancer + 2 DBlades is about the same cost as a Triforce. I'd still prefer PDancer, though, because I'd rather have the sheer, multiplicative numbers of a PDancer than the utility of a Triforce on the carry. Leave utility for the bruiser or tank, the carry needs to shoot people until they die.

Triforce is still something of a niche item, though, because it's really just three cheap, unrelated items that happens to take up one inventory slot.

[Joran]

Riot would never do anything like that for precisely the reasons you mention. Take a champion like Riven, or Vayne they would be extremely powerful with an item like that, the only thing that balances sheen right now is the dead stats for characters like that.

For Riven in particular, Xypherous specifically said he intentionally gave her a low base damage to limit Sheen's effectiveness, and essentially made her passive a Sheen effect.

[toasty]

I can't help but think you're WAY to binary with this stuff. I don't consider FoN core on Nasus at all, for example...and I'd prioritize TriForce over it in most games I play. I'm not saying you're wrong...but I am saying that you are WAY to black & white about things in League, from my perspective.

I might be binary in my thinking, maybe that's because I like black and white. It's probably my personality coming through as well. Actually, I should probably apologize for sounding really harsh throughout this discussion, cuz... I probably was.

Why I consider FoN core on Nasus: Nasus is a Bruiser that has naturally scaling damage based on CDR via Q. This means that he needs to prioritize defensive stats. Frozen heart is a natural choice because of aformentioned CDR. As a result, common boots choice is Merc Treads. However, this gives Nasus no MR, and even getting something like Shurelias doesn't make him tanky enough vs AP to justify not building any MR. What Tier 1 MR items are there? QQS, Abssyal, FoN, and Bveil. Bveil is a rather poor choice except perhaps against a team with a LOT of single-target, high cooldown CC, something like Moakai, Morgana, Udyr. However, even then, its still not that good because you don't really need Catalyst; get Philo/HoG for slightly more money up front, but easily buildable and overall a net-increase in gold. QQS is silly, probably, but I suppose it could work. Abssyal is obviously bad. FoN is actually good because, movespeed. Nasus is a melee hero with no real gap closer, this means that he gets kited pretty easily, so Movespeed is a must. Also, Nasus with Shurelias and HoG will actually have quite a bit of health, so the health regen passive is nice.

The only time I would argue that FoN is NOT Core is probably when dealing with a Double or "triple" AP comp (triple AP is when you have a magic-based jungle such as Amumu, Udyr or Moakai) then I would suggest you actually get a Spirit Visage and then maybe a Hexdrinker. THe reason that FoN is no longer Core is that Spirit Visage+Merc Treads is actually a fair bit of MR, and, actually, CDR. But hey, even the core is generally speaking, variable on any hero. Build should be malleable.

I suppose when I say "core" on heroes I'm just throwing together a generic build that is A) realistic to build given a standard game length and standard farm B) works against a generic team comp of Bruiser top, AP middle, Bruiser Jungle, AD+Support bottom. Given an infinite number of possible team comps an infinite number of optimal builds will result. For instance, a team that runs Vlad Top, but Corki middle and double Bruiser bottom might require a Spirit Visage Rush on Nasus, but would want a Frozen heart afterwards. A Double AP comp would probably rush Spirit Visage, but skip Frozen Heart because Shurelias+SV is pretty good CDR. That build might actually allow for a Triforce, though I would argue that Aegis is a good choice.

I guess I just spent a long time invalidating some of my previous statements about Nasus and FoN being "Core." But what I meant to try and say is that Triforce is, generally, not "core" while FoN is "core." Here I am defining Core is an item that one should attempt to purchase against a generic team comp in a generic game of generic time length with generic farm. Obviously non generic (Double AP, Triple AD Bruiser, Double AD Carry) require different build types. Realize that I haven't even considered the possibility of items such as Omen, Sunfires, QQS, Warmogs and perhaps even Frozen mallet. All are arguably good on Nasus in specific instances. This is something that good League players NEED to understand about building their heroes. Every game is different. And even though there is often a "standard" build for heroes, specific games can allow, or even require, different builds. Even on heroes that tend to have pretty static builds, like Galio or an AD carry. Sometimes you want your AD carry to rush defensive items after their first big item, sometimes they go full DPS, sometimes they get mostly DPS, but some tanky. Etc.

Okay, its late and I'm not sure how coherent that was. Again, please forgive me for being overly harsh and/or binary in my discussion about Nasus. My main issue is that I think Triforce is highly overrated and Phreak created a poison amongst LoL players when he started telling everyone to buy it on bruisers.

[Psyborg]

For the record: Solotop bruiser Vayne is another occasionally-viable trollish build that Trinity Force is good on (though, again, not something to rush). Chalk her up in the AD Sona class.

[TFT]

Sheen + Phage + Zeal gives everything corki wants, especially early game/mid game. Sheen procs off ult and he can use the extra mana and ap (I've almost killed my lane opponent or their support with just 3 rs, q, e and procs alone with boots 2, sheen, and dorans blade as items) Phage gives a chance to slow which helps chase down for e to proc(You know, the thing that lowers armor and makes you burst harder with your sheen procs) as well as gives extra tankiness, and zeal gives extra AS and MS. I was building Corki IE until it was suggested(Well, I got yelled at in a game) for not building TF. I proceeded to build it and haven't really lost lane since, and haven't gone back. As long as you hit skills and actually use the procs(not just herp derp r q e then aa, but aaing between each skill to get the procs off), it's really strong on corki and makes him a rather scary duelist/poker.

On a slightly related note, I've been trying to expand my list of champions I can bring into solo queue ranked/champions I know how to play well, and with that I'm trying to learn more ad carries. I really like playing as Corki, so I'd like to find another carry that plays similarly to him. Suggestions?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, movespeed quints on Kennen are probably overkill?
The Doransx2->Wriggle's->PD route seems a good one, I'll go for that. Zerks or Mercs for boots, generally?

[Zen Master]

It's funny that I'd never build triforce. Like, ever. I do however build Frozen Mallet+PD+Sheen, often. Triforce feels like a very unattractive downgrade to me.

[PEACH]

It's funny that I'd never build triforce. Like, ever. I do however build Frozen Mallet+PD+Sheen, often. Triforce feels like a very unattractive downgrade to me.

That's because going from almost 8k in items to 4k in items probably shouldn't be an upgrade. There's also the fact that any time you build Sheen, there's no reason *not* to upgrade it to Triforce if the game legitimately lasts long enough, especially because the only thing that doesn't stack is the slow chance from mallet and Phage.

As for the Nasus discussion: Nasus is a champion with near unlimited lategame scaling who gets huge benefits from farming even later than it seems like farming would be a good idea for most champions. If any bruiser champion can reasonably have an extended set of core items, it's him, and yes, Triforce *is* a good lategame item on him.

[Eldariel]

So, movespeed quints on Kennen are probably overkill?
The Doransx2->Wriggle's->PD route seems a good one, I'll go for that. Zerks or Mercs for boots, generally?

I use Doran's -> PD -> IE quite a bit on him. Wriggle's is viable though since the nerf it's been less impressive. Move Speed Quints; I'd just get AD TBH. Zerkers if you're the team's AD almost always (need the damage) outside some specific assassin/CC comps; if you're top, you have more leeway.

[Winthur]

On a slightly related note, I've been trying to expand my list of champions I can bring into solo queue ranked/champions I know how to play well, and with that I'm trying to learn more ad carries. I really like playing as Corki, so I'd like to find another carry that plays similarly to him. Suggestions?

Ezreal, I'd say. Most of the Corki builds (Triforce, straight up AD carry with IE+PD and pubstomping shredder that goes Black Cleaver) also work on Ezreal. Ezreal is ridiculously fun to play, has a pretty dominant laning phase if he can land his Qs and has more mobility than Corki with similar poke (though pales in terms of AoE damage).

Also, Trinity Force is core on Jax.

[ex cathedra]

If I played Jungle Alistair I would build Double gold/10, mobility boots, maybe aegis, probably shurelias, lots of oracles and wards, and then consider Triforce. Its highly likely I'd never build it. Corki+Ez: Its situational at best, honestly, building standard AD is probably better. Bruiser Fizz is dumb. Don't do it. Irelia and Jarvan are better off building other things. Like Fratmas. Like Wits End. Like Brutalizer (J4 at least). Lee Sin should never build Triforce, nor should Nasus. Shaco's itemization is weird anyways, but that's a valid one. Wukong is an assassin like Talon. I suggest a Last Whisper Rush, combined with wriggles and maybe a phage. Late game if you are very fed Triforce becomes an option, but such situations are rare, IMO. Yorick should never build Triforce. Sheen, yes, Triforce, no. You want damage? Manamune.

I don't understand how you expect people to take you seriously when you make posts like this.

Also: We've had this argument before. The truth is that I don't, and never have, like Triforce. I don't like "jack of all trades, damage focused, bruiser focused, expensive," items. That is exactly what triforce is. I prefer mid-tier items with good damage so that I can be tanky as hell come late game. Stuff like Frozen heart, Sunfire Cape, Brutalizer, Frozen mallet, atmas, etc are my preferred items because they give you tanky and damage. On AD carries I don't like Triforce because it doesn't scale well into late game vs other AD carry items and AD carries only care about scaling into late game via damage, in my opinion. The except to this might be in a duel AD comp where you are running some strange tanky AD hero top. Something like... Mana Tank Corki. Which is weird, but possibly viable in certain comps.

Trinity Force is viable on those two AD carries only in cases where you have multiple damage threats and don't have need of optimal late-game AD carries. There are situations when the massive midgame presence that Triforce grants to champions like Corki and Ezreal is worth more than the endgame presence of standard carry builds. Suffice it to say, not every game lasts 35 minutes and if you have a highly dominant mid or top laner you can safely build Triforce if you want to end the game as quickly as possible.

Oh man, and the fact that you suggest building Sunfire cape but disregard Triforce is the weirdest thing to me. That item is expensive and inefficient.

The thing is, Toasty, that being a 'jack of all trades' item isn't necessarily bad when it gives stats with multiplicative scaling. Slot efficiency is also highly important to bruisers since they need highly slot efficient items to have relevant lategames. Triforce is absurdly slot efficient. It's also movespeed itemization, and movespeed itemization kind of sucks. Also, TIL that Brutalizer makes you tanky. Additionally, there's a difference between building Triforce and rushing Triforce. FWIW, Nasus' base attack speed is mitigated by the animation reset on his Q.

[Zen Master]

there's no reason *not* to upgrade it to Triforce

Yes there is. If I upgrade to triforce, I can no longer upgrade my phage and my zeal.

[ex cathedra]

Yes there is. If I upgrade to triforce, I can no longer upgrade my phage and my zeal.

I can't think of a single champion that should build both Phantom Dancer and Phage, much less Sheen.

[Zen Master]

I can't think of a single champion that should build both Phantom Dancer and Phage, much less Sheen.

I use variations on that build on Shen and Udyr. Frozen Mallet is my go-to health item, and frankly I can't imagine many melee champs that get worse with attack speed. Of course, there are lots of attack speed items. I go for PD mainly because zeal is cheap.

[ex cathedra]

I use variations on that build on Shen and Udyr. Frozen Mallet is my go-to health item, and frankly I can't imagine many melee champs that get worse with attack speed. Of course, there are lots of attack speed items. I go for PD mainly because zeal is cheap.

Have you experimented with Wit's End? It's very strong on both of them.

To expound on this, both Shen and Udyr are heavily magic-damage-centric, even though they're auto-attackers. Both Phoenix Stance and Tiger stance do magic damage, as does Vorpal Blade, Shadow Dash, and most importantly Ki Strike; Wit's End accentuates this. Both Ki Strike and Phoenix Stance scale almost exclusively off of attack speed. Because of Turtle Stance, Udyr scales very well with resistances and slightly less well with Health. Thus, the great MR (it's like a negatron cloak. Negatron cloaks are crazy strong) from Wit's End works really well. Similarly, since Ki Strike scales so well with health and because of Feint, Shen wants some decently high resistances to optimize his effective HP.

On the other hand, the crit from Phantom Dancer has zero synergy with any of Shen's kit (since it doesn't affect Ki Strike and he has zero traditional steroids) and so it's only notable after you have both Phage and Atma's. Even then, I'm not sure that PD is worth an item slot considering the amount of tank stats a champion like Shen needs. Similarly, the only part of Udyr's kit that interacts with crit is the AD steroid from Phoenix Stance, but Phoenix Stance Udyr doesn't even buy Atma's or Triforce so there's really no further crit synergy.

[PEACH]

Yes there is. If I upgrade to triforce, I can no longer upgrade my phage and my zeal.

Uhh... what? Seriously, this post makes no sense. You said you build PD, Sheen, and Frozen Mallet. In that situation, there is no reason to not upgrade Sheen to Triforce, unless you want to be pedantic and say that you might want a Lichbane.

If you have Frozen Mallet, a PD, and an un-upgraded Sheen, your only two options for the sheen slot, endgame, is either to sell it or upgrade it to a Triforce. Yes, that's an absurdly lategame thing since you're building two big items (that don't really go together, honestly), but it's still something that will happen given enough time.

[Zen Master]

Uhh... what? Seriously, this post makes no sense. You said you build PD, Sheen, and Frozen Mallet. In that situation, there is no reason to not upgrade Sheen to Triforce, unless you want to be pedantic and say that you might want a Lichbane.

If you have Frozen Mallet, a PD, and an un-upgraded Sheen, your only two options for the sheen slot, endgame, is either to sell it or upgrade it to a Triforce. Yes, that's an absurdly lategame thing since you're building two big items (that don't really go together, honestly), but it's still something that will happen given enough time.

Phage is not frozen mallet.
Zeal is not phantom dancer.
Sheen is sheen. If you have sheen, zeal and phage, you can build triforce. If you have sheen, phantom dancer and frozen mallet - you cannot build triforce except if you buy phage and zeal.

Have you experimented with Wit's End? It's very strong on both of them.

To expound on this, both Shen and Udyr are heavily magic-damage-centric, even though they're auto-attackers. Both Phoenix Stance and Tiger stance do magic damage, as does Vorpal Blade, Shadow Dash, and most importantly Ki Strike; Wit's End accentuates this. Both Ki Strike and Phoenix Stance scale almost exclusively off of attack speed. Because of Turtle Stance, Udyr scales very well with resistances and slightly less well with Health. Thus, the great MR (it's like a negatron cloak. Negatron cloaks are crazy strong) from Wit's End works really well. Similarly, since Ki Strike scales so well with health and because of Feint, Shen wants some decently high resistances to optimize his effective HP.

On the other hand, the crit from Phantom Dancer has zero synergy with any of Shen's kit (since it doesn't affect Ki Strike and he has zero traditional steroids) and so it's only notable after you have both Phage and Atma's. Even then, I'm not sure that PD is worth an item slot considering the amount of tank stats a champion like Shen needs. Similarly, the only part of Udyr's kit that interacts with crit is the AD steroid from Phoenix Stance, but Phoenix Stance Udyr doesn't even buy Atma's or Triforce so there's really no further crit synergy.

I don't usually go for Wits End. I use Hexdrinker/Maw instead. But I'll be sure to give it a spin.

When I say I build PD, it's usually the last item of all. Attack speed and move speed are always good, crit doesn't hurt in any way, and it's just so very hard to escape someone with both FM and PD.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay, its late and I'm not sure how coherent that was. Again, please forgive me for being overly harsh and/or binary in my discussion about Nasus. My main issue is that I think Triforce is highly overrated and Phreak created a poison amongst LoL players when he started telling everyone to buy it on bruisers.

Very coherent...actually, probably one of the most coherent things I've seen you post, and something that I can't possibly disagree with. I was also quite pleased to see your admission that you come off as harsh sometimes as, I'll admit, I've long considered your rather "I'm right, no ifs, buts, or ands," and this helped dispel that a bit. I applaud you for that post entirely, toasty.

The definition of Core also helps...though I suppose the issue was that your definition is different from mine. My definition of Core is "items you always want, irregardless of enemy team comp, except in the craziest of situations." Frozen Heart on Nasus fits this: I can't possibly envision a game where I wouldn't want it, unless the enemy team has 4+ AP characters...and that basically never happens. I feel I have more choice in MR (Banshee's, Boots + GA + runes often gives enough with Nasus's tankiness, Maw of Malmordious, FoN...), so I personally would hesitate to call FoN core.

And you're also right about TriForce...I like it as a powerful, game-altering mid-game item, because it does work wonders on Nasus. But that's if I plan on winning the game before reaching the full-build state. At full build, yeah...I'd rather have this: Merc Treads, Frozen Mallet, FoN, Bloodthirster / Atma's / Shurelia's (depending on the enemy team), Guardian Angel, Frozen Heart. I just find that normally the Trinity Force helps me win the game faster and for a lower cost than the full build mentioned above.

To me, that early-game winning potential is important, especially for Nasus, who becomes a beast mid-game if he's had a strong early game, and who I've found can often build for the short term and rely on the power of that Q plus the fairly significant mid-game power that TriForces DOES give to carry his team through the early-mid game to a fairly rapid victory.

Is it an over-rated item? Hell yes. I've found it best suited to games where you have a target you can prey on, so you can shut them down that much faster. I'd definitely skip it in a game where I *don't* have that sort of target: It's great on Shaco, for example, if you can kill the enemies quickly. Against an all-tanky team? No way in hell.

...long story short, I think we actually both DO know what we're talking about, and that we actually agree more than it seems. You just like absolutes, and I react badly to absolutes by playing the Devil's Advocate and overly defending the opposite stance, even if it's not entirely true. We are both equally intractable and difficult to discuss with, in dynamically opposed ways.

...I've really enjoyed this little conversation, actually.

I can't think of a single champion that should build both Phantom Dancer and Phage, much less Sheen.

A non-Triforce tanky Shaco build has room for a Phantom Dancer next to his Frozen Mallet, if he so wishes.

[ex cathedra]

On Nasus, Triforce, and MR itemization:

I never said that Triforce was core on Nasus; in fact, I never said that Triforce was core on any of those champions. On the other hand, I wouldn't consider FoN to be core on Nasus at all. Against heavy AD comps, Treads + GA + Aegis is more than enough MR, and it leaves room for FH + Shurelya's + Triforce. Treads + GA + Warmog's has similar effect. Nasus' core should be nothing more than Treads/Tabi, Philo Stone, Glacial Shroud. That's it. Anything further is intensely arguable.

A non-Triforce tanky Shaco build has room for a Phantom Dancer next to his Frozen Mallet, if he so wishes.

I am not going to talk to you about Shaco itemization. It will end poorly.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Nasus' core should be nothing more than Treads/Tabi, Philo Stone, Glacial Shroud. That's it. Anything further is intensely arguable.

Completely agreed.

I am not going to talk to you about Shaco itemization. It will end poorly.

...seems like a good idea. I play him as a crazy-squishy AD assassin anyway.


...builds I USE and builds I TALK ABOUT are decidedly different. I often build in REALLY dumb fashions.

[toasty]

I don't understand how you expect people to take you seriously when you make posts like this.

Well, I don't know what's wrong with posts like that.

Trinity Force is viable on those two AD carries only in cases where you have multiple damage threats and don't have need of optimal late-game AD carries. There are situations when the massive midgame presence that Triforce grants to champions like Corki and Ezreal is worth more than the endgame presence of standard carry builds. Suffice it to say, not every game lasts 35 minutes and if you have a highly dominant mid or top laner you can safely build Triforce if you want to end the game as quickly as possible.

I'm going to end this by saying I don't play AD carries, I have no idea how to build them because I don't play AD carries and all I know is that Infinity Edge is the best item in the game for any hero that wants their Auto attacks to scale into late game.

Oh man, and the fact that you suggest building Sunfire cape but disregard Triforce is the weirdest thing to me. That item is expensive and inefficient.

40 DPS AoE is a lot of DPS for tanks. On heroes like Moakai, Shen, and Nautilus who actually scale with HP (and in theory could build Triforce) its probably a good item.

The thing is, Toasty, that being a 'jack of all trades' item isn't necessarily bad when it gives stats with multiplicative scaling. Slot efficiency is also highly important to bruisers since they need highly slot efficient items to have relevant lategames. Triforce is absurdly slot efficient. It's also movespeed itemization, and movespeed itemization kind of sucks. Also, TIL that Brutalizer makes you tanky. Additionally, there's a difference between building Triforce and rushing Triforce. FWIW, Nasus' base attack speed is mitigated by the animation reset on his Q.

Brutalizer does not make you tanky. Its a good item for certain bruisers in certain matchups though, and I think I'd buy it over Triforce on a lot of people. Its also more entertaining for troll builds.

relevant lategames

I guess my problem is that I always assume that, as a bruiser, I'm going to want to be tanky first, and build damage second. The exception to this is heroes that obviously don't build triforce such as Olaf and Riven. I dunno, maybe its a playstyle difference that makes us disagree. Maybe I'm just a 1200 elo noob who has delusions of grandeur.

@Djinn: thanks. :) I'm glad I made sense.

[ex cathedra]

Well, I don't know what's wrong with posts like that.

Djinn brought it up when he mentioned your propensity for 'absolutes.'

Statements like

Bruiser Fizz is dumb. Don't do it.

Lee Sin should never build Triforce, nor should Nasus.

Yorick should never build Triforce. Sheen, yes, Triforce, no. You want damage? Manamune.

are not only presented as fact but they're contrary to a lot of popular opinions.

What's wrong with bruiser Fizz? AoE CC, healing reduction, AA steroids, and multiple gapclosers make for a bad bruiser? He also has a significantly lower skill floor than his AP counterpart, which is relevant to players who aren't, you know, extraordinarily strong mechanically. AP Fizz is actually quite difficult and he has a lot of bad matchups against extraordinarily common mages (see: Ryze).

Lee Sin should never build Triforce? what? It's definitely not core, but Lee Sin has some of the most versatile build options in the game and I don't see how Triforce isn't one of them. It has massive synergy with his kit, plus Phage is a natural part of Lee Sin's core. Triforce also gives Lee Sin more lategame presence than Frozen Mallet.

You just sell Sheen on Yorick? Triforce is super strong on Yorick, especially against AD-heavy comps. (because it enables end-game builds similar to treads, manamune, frozen heart, triforce, warmog's, atma's) I don't get you at all. You don't offer valid criticism of the item and you expect people to actually pay attention to posts that make wild and unsubstantiated claims.

[Temotei]

The exception to this is heroes that obviously don't build triforce such as Olaf and Riven.

How does everyone build Olaf here?

Just as a note, I'm in the "triforce is a super late-game choice item for Nasus" camp.

[ex cathedra]

How does everyone build Olaf here?

Just as a note, I'm in the "triforce is a super late-game choice item for Nasus" camp.

Wriggles/Tabi when laning against difficult AD, Treads/Hexdrinker against AP. Phage core, upgrade into Mallet after you finish Atma's. An early Doran's blade is fine, too. Heart of Gold is solid when you're expecting that you'll need Randuin's later. Zeke's is okay, Shurelya's is okay, Spirit Visage is okay, Maw is okay, Warmog's is okay. You mostly build what you need for any given game.

[Temotei]

Wriggles/Tabi when laning against difficult AD, Treads/Hexdrinker against AP. Phage core, upgrade into Mallet after you finish Atma's. An early Doran's blade is fine, too. Heart of Gold is solid when you're expecting that you'll need Randuin's later. Zeke's is okay, Shurelya's is okay, Spirit Visage is okay, Maw is okay, Warmog's is okay. You mostly build what you need for any given game.

Cool, thanks. That looks similar to what I tried out a few times, though I didn't think about Spirit Visage. Not a bad idea.