Skyrim V: Skyrim

[Calemyr]

Who says Sithis is evil? He's simply nothingness. Oblivion is neither good nor evil.

Oblivion is not evil, but surely Sithis is. He wants to drag everyone into his domain, whether they like it or not. He's not like "Blessed" (Champion) Sheogorath or Malacath, who simply tend to the people in their domain. Nor is he like the Discworld's Death, who does not kill (usually) but merely ministers to the fallen. He wants death and slaughter in ritualized fashion in his name. His speaker is a woman who killed all her children in his name, and he rewarded her for that with the most revered position he could arrange. Neutrality doesn't live here anymore.

Nor are the Brotherhood merely death-worshiping assassins. They are macabre death-worshiping assassins who do the job because they like it. Death is neutral, but focusing on mutilated bodies and the joy of killing puts the Brotherhood on the wrong side of that line.

Which one is the good and evil (just to be sure if it isn't another Skyrim Civil War morality) in Dawnguard?
Which one is better?

According to Howard himself, Vampires are frankly evil, which is why they put the Dawnguard in, to balance things out. Since the vampire's stated goal in the trailer is to use an Elder Scroll to block out the sun, which instantly puts them on Mr. Burns level of evil, it's hard to imagine them getting the moral upper hand.

[t209]

According to Howard himself, Vampires are frankly evil, which is why they put the Dawnguard in, to balance things out. Since the vampire's stated goal in the trailer is to use an Elder Scroll to block out the sun, which instantly puts them on Mr. Burns level of evil, it's hard to imagine them getting the moral upper hand.

Better as in Equipments and rewards.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't remember... when is it you get the skeleton key in your hand? Before or after you get the armor?

Also... I am about to start my Argonian run but at the same time I can't help liking the idea of an Orc mage...

[nhbdy]

I don't remember... when is it you get the skeleton key in your hand? Before or after you get the armor?

Also... I am about to start my Argonian run but at the same time I can't help liking the idea of an Orc mage...

after... and I think you've spent too much time around the librarian

[Lamech]

See I always try to see how many Deadra lords I can have my soul sold too my the end of the game. That way when I die, I can sneak away while their fighting over my soul!

[Calemyr]

See I always try to see how many Deadra lords I can have my soul sold too my the end of the game. That way when I die, I can sneak away while their fighting over my soul!

Hircine (werewolves), Nocturne (thieves), Sithis (Dark Brotherhood), and Shor (main quest)... who else tries to claim your soul (other than by outright trying to kill you and take it on the spot)?

[Landis963]

Hircine (werewolves), Nocturnal (thieves), Sithis (Dark Brotherhood), and Shor (main quest)... who else tries to claim your soul (other than by outright trying to kill you and take it on the spot)?

Depends mostly on your interpretation of "champion of insert daedric lord here". There's a good case for Namira trying to nab your soul, and Molag Bal, but otherwise there's not much.

[BladeofObliviom]

Hircine (werewolves), Nocturne (thieves), Sithis (Dark Brotherhood), and Shor (main quest)... who else tries to claim your soul (other than by outright trying to kill you and take it on the spot)?

Boethiah (her quest), PROBABLY Meridia (also her quest), Molag Bal (Vampire).

Probably more, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Avilan the Grey]

after... and I think you've spent too much time around the librarian

Librarian is awesome

[The_Jackal]

According to Howard himself, Vampires are frankly evil, which is why they put the Dawnguard in, to balance things out. Since the vampire's stated goal in the trailer is to use an Elder Scroll to block out the sun, which instantly puts them on Mr. Burns level of evil, it's hard to imagine them getting the moral upper hand.

Not just evil, but profoundly stupid, unless we're operating on the assumption that life on Tamriel can continue without the Sun. All that would be left would be a bunch of really cranky, starved stage four vampires, plus a handful of sundry undead and dwemer automatons.

[Beowulf DW]

Librarian is awesome

"Your innards will be ripped out by angry atronachs!"

[nhbdy]

Well after playing with dawnguard a bit, I decided I needed to roll a vampire lord, but I knew my current character (something like a self-proclaimed paladin) would never become one (and he carries potions to prevent just that). So I started polling the internet for interesting builds to get my character ideas flowing. Ultimately I found this (I will tweak it slightly to be necromancy based but apart from that I plan on using it as is)

http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/...d-the-sorcerer

I also looked at some of their other stuff and noticed the build quality is really high on most of the work presented and thought some of you might be interested in the site (there's a link at the top to go to character building or it's here: http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/...building/forum )

[Avilan the Grey]

"Your innards will be ripped out by angry atronachs!"

So... hmm... I might have to just run two parallel characters.

[Flickerdart]

Hircine (werewolves), Nocturne (thieves), Sithis (Dark Brotherhood), and Shor (main quest)... who else tries to claim your soul (other than by outright trying to kill you and take it on the spot)?

Shor what? I don't remember this.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Quick question. I can't seem to find Dawnguard on Steam. Where is it? I want to buy it ASAP.

[The-Mage-King]

Quick question. I can't seem to find Dawnguard on Steam. Where is it? I want to buy it ASAP.

It's not. The Exbawks players are lucky enough to now be the PC Master Race's beta testers, and get it a month before we do.

[Blackdrop]

It's not. The Exbawks players are lucky enough to now be the PC Master Race's beta testers, and get it a month before we do.

"Exbawks"? Really?

[The-Mage-King]

"Exbawks"? Really?

I have a low opinion of Microsoft's console.

[Grue Bait]

I have a low opinion of Microsoft's console.

Oh, let's not start this one again...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's not. The Exbawks players are lucky enough to now be the PC Master Race's beta testers, and get it a month before we do.

Oh. That's what I get for not paying attention.

[Tergon]

Chipping in a little late, but I don't think that Sithis counts as being evil, really. He's simply the opposite of creation. Nothing as opposed to Something. The Dark Brotherhood don't go around plotting genocide or wiping out all life; they simply go hunting after those who have been named for Sithis to feed on. By no means does this make him good! Rather, I just think that Sithis is something so alien, so utterly outside the concept of morality, that "Good" or "Evil" no longer apply to him. He's not openly malevolent, he's not remarkably destructive, he's just there, on the other side of creation, perfectly content to sit and wait for all eternity knowing that everything will return to nothingness in time. His servants may be evil, and their methods may seem evil, but Sithis himself I don't think counts.

Really, what measure do we have for Evil in the Elder Scrolls universe? Half of the Daedric Lords aren't even malevolent, they just obey their natures and do what is required of them in their role as the physical embodiment of the power they wield. The Aedra aren't much better - oh, sure, Kynareth is the kind and pure God of the wilds. So go ahead, take off your armour and weapons, put on an Amulet of Kynareth, pray at a shrine for the blessing, and then go see how friendly that Cave Bear is now.
For mortal beings it's no less gray. Theft, murder and manipulation are all things that a moral person can end up doing over the course of the games. Ripping out the souls of sentient beings is a casual occurence. Killing good people who've committed no crimes, well, what side of the civil war did you fight on? And how many soldiers did you kill who were "Just doing their jobs"?

Even most of the monsters you end up fighting barely count. Werewolves and vampires are scary, yes. But they're sentient beings infected with a disease that even the most moral person can catch, and which will force them to transform against their will. And the transformation makes them hungry. They need to feed. It just so happens that what they eat is people, but is that their fault? You can say that if they give in to their natures and attack the innocent, that's bad... but they're simply killing weaker beings for their own benefit. Is that more evil than a wolf killing a rabbit? Or than the Physical God that is the Dovahkiin storming a cave full of confused, frightened bandits and slaughtering them all with magic and steel and The Voice, just to gain some gold and experience?

The only being in all of Tamriel who has a case for being called truly evil is Alduin, who wants to dominate all creation before devouring it for no other reason than because he can. And even he is only doing this because that's the nature of his being as the son of Akatosh. To him, ending the world is about as dramatic as stepping on an anthill. Needlessly and pointlessly destructive, but something that's so far from significant to him that it might legitimately have never occured to him that it could be wrong.

I'm just saying, if we're going to say that someone is evil, you have to have a clear picture of what exactly "Evil" means in this universe, and I don't think that it's really fair to put that label on anyone.

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking about the Dark Brotherhood again... I am pretty sure people who, when you first meet them, boasts about their kills and mocks their victims (posthumously) are evil people. "Aww the big dog chased a little kitty" etc.

[Avilan the Grey]

Still confused why XCE can completely remove all body seams, but all the really popular skin and body mods CANNOT (or you have to do a lot of annoying work that still only sorta helps and the neck seams are quite visible anyway)? I keep going back to XCE because simply the only downside is the ugly vanilla underwear, but I refuse to play with visible neck seams.

[nhbdy]

Chipping in a little late, but I don't think that Sithis counts as being evil, really. He's simply the opposite of creation. Nothing as opposed to Something. The Dark Brotherhood don't go around plotting genocide or wiping out all life; they simply go hunting after those who have been named for Sithis to feed on. By no means does this make him good! Rather, I just think that Sithis is something so alien, so utterly outside the concept of morality, that "Good" or "Evil" no longer apply to him. He's not openly malevolent, he's not remarkably destructive, he's just there, on the other side of creation, perfectly content to sit and wait for all eternity knowing that everything will return to nothingness in time. His servants may be evil, and their methods may seem evil, but Sithis himself I don't think counts.

Really, what measure do we have for Evil in the Elder Scrolls universe? Half of the Daedric Lords aren't even malevolent, they just obey their natures and do what is required of them in their role as the physical embodiment of the power they wield. The Aedra aren't much better - oh, sure, Kynareth is the kind and pure God of the wilds. So go ahead, take off your armour and weapons, put on an Amulet of Kynareth, pray at a shrine for the blessing, and then go see how friendly that Cave Bear is now.
For mortal beings it's no less gray. Theft, murder and manipulation are all things that a moral person can end up doing over the course of the games. Ripping out the souls of sentient beings is a casual occurence. Killing good people who've committed no crimes, well, what side of the civil war did you fight on? And how many soldiers did you kill who were "Just doing their jobs"?

Even most of the monsters you end up fighting barely count. Werewolves and vampires are scary, yes. But they're sentient beings infected with a disease that even the most moral person can catch, and which will force them to transform against their will. And the transformation makes them hungry. They need to feed. It just so happens that what they eat is people, but is that their fault? You can say that if they give in to their natures and attack the innocent, that's bad... but they're simply killing weaker beings for their own benefit. Is that more evil than a wolf killing a rabbit? Or than the Physical God that is the Dovahkiin storming a cave full of confused, frightened bandits and slaughtering them all with magic and steel and The Voice, just to gain some gold and experience?

The only being in all of Tamriel who has a case for being called truly evil is Alduin, who wants to dominate all creation before devouring it for no other reason than because he can. And even he is only doing this because that's the nature of his being as the son of Akatosh. To him, ending the world is about as dramatic as stepping on an anthill. Needlessly and pointlessly destructive, but something that's so far from significant to him that it might legitimately have never occured to him that it could be wrong.

I'm just saying, if we're going to say that someone is evil, you have to have a clear picture of what exactly "Evil" means in this universe, and I don't think that it's really fair to put that label on anyone.

Wow... that is a really well thought out argument for the morality of the elder scrolls universe. However I wouldn't say that Alduin is the only one that has a case for being evil, you still have the silver-bloods in Markarth, you still have Ulfric (subject to opinion, but I think he's fighting this war for personal gain and that would be evil), you still have various vampires from the DLC

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one runs a skooma den to keep people addicted and in poor shape to fight so they can feed on them at their leisure, the lord of that vampire clan wants to turn off the sun, even though it has been painstakingly presented that doing so would put the vampires as a whole in the cross-hairs of mortals and would thus make life extremely difficult for them

and of course Avilan makes a good point of the members of the dark brotherhood, which I could extend to most deadra worshipers.

[Lamech]

Even most of the monsters you end up fighting barely count. Werewolves and vampires are scary, yes. But they're sentient beings infected with a disease that even the most moral person can catch, and which will force them to transform against their will. And the transformation makes them hungry. They need to feed. It just so happens that what they eat is people, but is that their fault? You can say that if they give in to their natures and attack the innocent, that's bad... but they're simply killing weaker beings for their own benefit. Is that more evil than a wolf killing a rabbit? Or than the Physical God that is the Dovahkiin storming a cave full of confused, frightened bandits and slaughtering them all with magic and steel and The Voice, just to gain some gold and experience?

That happens for one transformation with werewolves. You are in control the rest of the time. And vampires? They don't even need to kill to feed. And you don't storm bandit caves. You explore parks that have been opened to the public for the beautification of Skyrim, and to allow caving enthusiasts to explore their hobby. Then bandits attempt to murder you for it!

[nhbdy]

That happens for one transformation with werewolves. You are in control the rest of the time. And vampires? They don't even need to kill to feed. And you don't storm bandit caves. You explore parks that have been opened to the public for the beautification of Skyrim, and to allow caving enthusiasts to explore their hobby. Then bandits attempt to murder you for it!

Actually iirc the dovakiin and companions are fairly unique in that regard, most don't seem to have control...

[Tergon]

Mmm. Vampires are often shown having no control or losing themselves to the bloodlust; look at Azura's quest in Oblivion where Azura's followers knew they were going to become monsters and locked themselves away before they could hurt anyone. Or in Skyrim we meet Movarth, the Vampire Hunter from the book Immortal Blood who was attacked and defeated by a Vampire in the book. Now we find that even a professional Vampire hunter, with a deep loathing for the creatures and a driving urge to destroy them, has become master of a clan of Vampires preying on Morthal.

As for Werewolves, look no further than Ill Met By Moonlight, Hircine's quest in Skyrim. Sinding specifically says that he stole the Ring to try and gain some control over himself, and he's currently locked up because he transformed and murdered a child, which he feels terrible about. Dude very clearly has zero control over when he wolfs out, or what he does when it happens.

There's examples of Werewolves and Vampires both who do retain their control and their minds when they transform, but they really do seem to be the vast minority. Otherwise, well, why would they kill people in the first place?

[Morty]

I started playing Skyrim yesterday. So far, so good. But I'm a bit worried that I develop mostly Alteration and Destruction. I'd like to level up my Enchantment and Alchemy a bit, but I can't seem to find the ingredients... then again, I've only been playing for two days.

[Avilan the Grey]

I started playing Skyrim yesterday. So far, so good. But I'm a bit worried that I develop mostly Alteration and Destruction. I'd like to level up my Enchantment and Alchemy a bit, but I can't seem to find the ingredients... then again, I've only been playing for two days.

Ingredients? Just pick every damn flower you can find...

[Morty]

I am doing that, but I guess I haven't run across enough of them. I've only been in Riverwood and Whiterun.