Grrl Power

[VariaVespasa]

Actually that orb analysis pointed out something interesting to me- Vehemence was indeed nervous about poking Dabblers sword. Its obviously possible it was just a joke around the booby-trapped warning from Dabbler, especially if V was worried that it really *was* mammary-trapped. I doubt his abilities would protect him against suddenly growing boobs...

But its also possible that the author is being subtle here with a clue about his limitations or weaknesses - Perhaps V doesnt so much gain power from violence as he does from WILLFUL violence. IE- people doing or trying to do violence give him energy, but violent activities happening around him without any will behind them do not. That would explain why he doesnt just go sit by an active volcano during an eruption which is far more violent than anything thats happened in this strip, or work in a quarry where the active blasting would feed him nicely, or working on an icebreaker which is certainly violence every time its working.. Forest fires are violent, and yet he's not a fire-fighter. Even any fuel-using power plant involves violence. But he's not using any of those. So how do you lot feel about the idea that violence without any will behind it, such as a random boobytrap, would bypass his defenses?

[Forum Explorer]

Actually that orb analysis pointed out something interesting to me- Vehemence was indeed nervous about poking Dabblers sword. Its obviously possible it was just a joke around the booby-trapped warning from Dabbler, especially if V was worried that it really *was* mammary-trapped. I doubt his abilities would protect him against suddenly growing boobs...

But its also possible that the author is being subtle here with a clue about his limitations or weaknesses - Perhaps V doesnt so much gain power from violence as he does from WILLFUL violence. IE- people doing or trying to do violence give him energy, but violent activities happening around him without any will behind them do not. That would explain why he doesnt just go sit by an active volcano during an eruption which is far more violent than anything thats happened in this strip, or work in a quarry where the active blasting would feed him nicely, or working on an icebreaker which is certainly violence every time its working.. Forest fires are violent, and yet he's not a fire-fighter. Even any fuel-using power plant involves violence. But he's not using any of those. So how do you lot feel about the idea that violence without any will behind it, such as a random boobytrap, would bypass his defenses?

This sounds right. Though I don't think it would bypass his defenses as much as not give him any energy. So a high powered blast so early in the fight would certainly kill him, but now he'd likely be able to shrug it off.

[TiaC]

Possible route to victory: Vehemence just wants big fights so he can power up. Dabbler has access to a truly massive number of locations. She can just offer to relocate him to some massive war somewhere far from Earth.

[Discus-Spinner]

We don't really know what Vehemence wants to do with all this energy, other than provoke people into giving him more energy, but Max and the management would have to assume "nothing good". For all his affability, he shows no signs of wanting to play nice. Offering him a chance to power up even more would be a good route to getting the survivors of Arc disbanded after the Congressional inquiry.

Anyway, those paying attention to the strips and the notes beneath them will be aware that (a) Sydney's first opponent was called Shadow Boxer, (b) Concretia was taken down for a third time, apparently well enough to make her give up and go home, when she went after Peggy and met a claymore mine, and so (c) the weird crystalline individual was someone else entirely (named Crystal Mace in my personal headcanon).

[Calemyr]

It may be worth noting that Halo's largest weakness (so far) has been known since her meeting with the Board: Mittens. Of course, we took away the most critical consequence of that, the fact that she is always limited to at most two orbs at any given time, but there seems to be a commonly accepted but rarely considered consequence here: all of Halo's power, all of it, is predicated on her ability to place significant hand contact on an orb. Skin contact at that. She has two points of failure, and even removing one from play renders her much, much less effective.

There are a few powers that could simply take her out of the game (without killing/maiming her). Wrap her hands in ice or a force field and she can't make contact with an orb. Burn the palms of her hands (or break/sprain/injure her hands) so that contact with orbs is simply too uncomfortable to maintain. Or use that ice when she has a pair of support orbs active (flight and telepresence, for instance) and she's left vulnerable without any offensive or defensive options beyond "get the heck out of here!". Granted, Sydney is a creative girl so she could still probably use that combination to good effect if she were limited to them, but she'd have an equivalent threat level of Harem, if that. Heck, Achilles could take her down pretty simply if she didn't have her shield up: grab her arms, pull them behind her back, and just endure the pummeling her feet and orbs deliver as she tries to break free. Her greatest strength is also her greatest weakness: creativity. A clever villain can't simply overpower Maxima or Dabbler, but a properly prepared and creative villain could neutralize Halo with more ease than Death Toll Perriwinkle Buttsniffer did with Anvil and Jiggawatt.

Even her shield comes with several limitations. First, it's airtight, meaning she can't effectively turtle a patient enemy. Second, it's always focused on her, the usable air inside is based on the volume of the bubble, and it is, at least thus far, always been a bubble. This means that, as demonstrated in her fight with Shadowboxer, her shield is best used as a proactive power, not a reactive one. She needs to use the ability when she's already relatively safe in order to effectively use it at all (that is, without severely limiting its duration via air supply or trapping a hostile inside with her), curtailing her effectiveness in favor of survivability from the get-go. It's probably a safe bet the shield will not form at a radius that will damage living matter (or possibly matter at all), as well. And now we have official canon commentary stating that she does not know how to form a shield not centered around her - meaning it could be an upgrade or a trick she learns in the future but it won't be saving Maxima's gold-plated hindquarters today.

Add in the fact that she really needs that shield to survive any contact with supers (she doesn't seem to have even basic athlete levels of endurance, much less an actual Toughness score), and she really has to make herself vulnerable to make full use of her options - presumably the most vulnerable of any of them since Harem has disposable bodies and Peggy has military training (I mean, just look at her story about how she lost her leg. Pinky is tough.).

[DaveB]

Mary Sue Analysis

Wow, that is quite a thorough analysis. Also calling the guy in overalls with the kinda-sorta Aztec looking markings on him "Budget Vehemence" is amazing, I laughed out loud at that.

My thoughts on Sydney as a Mary Sue: The primary defining characteristic of a Mary Sue is wish fulfillment via author insert, which Sydney fails pretty much right off the bat. If she was a (transgendered) author insert, wouldn't she be a bit more of a lesbian? :) Beyond that, I'm a nerd, she's a nerd, fine, but the similarities basically stop there.

I think the commonly used definition of Mary Sue has slipped from that original definition to "female character that seems too good at stuff" The undercurrent usually being that women aren't allowed to be as good at stuff as men, otherwise there would be endless forum threads about how Batman is totally a Mary Sue.

This bit I pulled from wikipedia is interesting on the quelling effect the Mary Sue label has:

Smith [the author of the original Mary Sue story] interviewed a panel of female authors who say they do not include female characters in their stories at all. She quoted one as saying "Every time I've tried to put a woman in any story I've ever written, everyone immediately says, this is a Mary Sue." Smith also pointed out that "Participants in a panel discussion in January 1990 noted with growing dismay that any female character created within the community is damned with the term Mary Sue.

Even if you take the sexism angle out of it, really the Mary Sue complaint comes down to "this character seems to be too good at too many things, and/or is liked by everyone." So let's address that. One of Sydney's official unofficial powers is that her adorkableness makes her rather disarming. So far she hasn't met anyone who is especially annoyed by her (except for the people who have attacked her presumably), so on that front it's partially a fair accusation. That isn't to say of course she won't meet anyone like that, just that she hasn't so far.

Now, is she too good at stuff? Well, it's a superhero comic, so she's likely to be good at a few things at least, or she wouldn't be much use to the team. She also has a lot of powers, but that's offset by her only being able to use two at a time, and having a weaksauce weakness - mittens. Lock some oven mitts on her and she can't use her powers. She can and probably will smash you in the ghoulies with the orbs though.

As far as her being a competent problem solver... all I can say to that is, does that make her a Mary Sue or just the main character? Presumably whenever Sherlock solves a case, people don't all cry Mary Sue at him. When Batman beats the Joker, people don't call him a Mary Sue, they say "Oh, hey, this is a Batman comic, I am in no way surprised that Batman prevailed in the end." That Buffy is such a Mary Sue for not dying every time she encountered a demon! No, the main character is going to win more than they lose, otherwise you're telling a much more depressing kind of story, which is frankly the sort of thing I tend to avoid.

Which isn't to say that Sydney will never fail, just that she hasn't yet. It's early days.

[Lamech]

Spoiler

Show

The sonic boom on mortal eardrums bit doesn't actually happen. In supersonic flight, you are too fast for the sound of your passage to catch up with you. It will probably be noisy, but the boom isn't part of that.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

Spoiler: PHYSICS!

Show

I would expect it to result in nearly no pressure from the outside on the eardrums due to moving so fast. I can't imagine that would be good for the eardrums since you would have pressure from the inside.

[Metahuman1]

Wow, that is quite a thorough analysis. Also calling the guy in overalls with the kinda-sorta Aztec looking markings on him "Budget Vehemence" is amazing, I laughed out loud at that.

My thoughts on Sydney as a Mary Sue: The primary defining characteristic of a Mary Sue is wish fulfillment via author insert, which Sydney fails pretty much right off the bat. If she was a (transgendered) author insert, wouldn't she be a bit more of a lesbian? :) Beyond that, I'm a nerd, she's a nerd, fine, but the similarities basically stop there.

I think the commonly used definition of Mary Sue has slipped from that original definition to "female character that seems too good at stuff" The undercurrent usually being that women aren't allowed to be as good at stuff as men, otherwise there would be endless forum threads about how Batman is totally a Mary Sue.

This bit I pulled from wikipedia is interesting on the quelling effect the Mary Sue label has:


Even if you take the sexism angle out of it, really the Mary Sue complaint comes down to "this character seems to be too good at too many things, and/or is liked by everyone." So let's address that. One of Sydney's official unofficial powers is that her adorkableness makes her rather disarming. So far she hasn't met anyone who is especially annoyed by her (except for the people who have attacked her presumably), so on that front it's partially a fair accusation. That isn't to say of course she won't meet anyone like that, just that she hasn't so far.

Now, is she too good at stuff? Well, it's a superhero comic, so she's likely to be good at a few things at least, or she wouldn't be much use to the team. She also has a lot of powers, but that's offset by her only being able to use two at a time, and having a weaksauce weakness - mittens. Lock some oven mitts on her and she can't use her powers. She can and probably will smash you in the ghoulies with the orbs though.

As far as her being a competent problem solver... all I can say to that is, does that make her a Mary Sue or just the main character? Presumably whenever Sherlock solves a case, people don't all cry Mary Sue at him. When Batman beats the Joker, people don't call him a Mary Sue, they say "Oh, hey, this is a Batman comic, I am in no way surprised that Batman prevailed in the end." That Buffy is such a Mary Sue for not dying every time she encountered a demon! No, the main character is going to win more than they lose, otherwise you're telling a much more depressing kind of story, which is frankly the sort of thing I tend to avoid.

Which isn't to say that Sydney will never fail, just that she hasn't yet. It's early days.

Ya know, there's something magical about this threads ability to draw in Web Comic Creators to discuss there work. =)

I get what your saying, though there is an argument going around that Batman in particular has become a Mary Sue because of how insanely hyper competent he is at EVERYTHING and how this has literally let him play on a level with actual gods.

Just, to nit pick the post abit.



But personally? No, no I don't see Sydney as a Sue. She's a very powerful character, but no more of a Sue then Green Lantern or Superman or the major characters in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.

[Lamech]

3) Periwinkle Buttsniffer comes up last: Sydney figures out his power, and uses her Genre Sense to figure out the hole in his defense.

You know, I don't buy her logic. Overwhelming him with blasts still has all sorts of failure points. A death aura would have put a stop to that right quick for example. Or much more worrying, body swapping would have kept him nice and safe, AND matched up more or less with what we see in the comic. Maybe she got lucky and its not really any power, but something more restricted. Or maybe Achilles is now evil. Never know.

Peggy and Concrete: I'm actually surprised that concrete girl went home. No real reason she can't just manifest right next to Peggy too close for a Claymore to do any good. Also worrisome, I don't think the author actually specified that Concrete Girl went home.

Mary Sueness: If anyone qualifies its Dabbler. Some of her antics could very well get her charged with sexual assault in the real world. Well not really since she's an alien/demon and thus doesn't qualify as a person, human, or even an animal or plant or fungus. Which really means she would be in even worse trouble. And don't even get me started on how the court case would go "We want to subpoena Ms. Civilian Consultant" in which case the governments options amount to lying to the court or admitting they let a demon/alien mess with everything.

[Traab]

Fair enough about the timing of the Velma ploy. Of course, it's possible that Sydney's pulled this on a bully in the past or something, or maybe she spent downtime fantasizing about pulling something like this. Still, that's not really something we could predict, and it would feel pretty hackish even if that was the source of her plan, so whatever.

Alright, full list time: how well would the "lift them up" plan work against the various members of the team?

Maxima: Super useless. Not only is she far too strong and tough to be bothered by such a puny amount of force, she can fly under her own power, and has ranged blasts to boot.

Halo: Useless. Not only would her shield probably block any attempt, she can fly, and has ranged blasts.

Peggy: A different kind of useless: other than a few potshots (one of which damaged, but almost certainly didn't take down, Concretia), she's done next to nothing. Okay, she shot out V's eye, but that lasted...what, a full minute of webcomic time? He healed it in the most recent comic. And it's not like it gave Maxima the opening she needed to take him out; he's still going strong...in fact, stronger than ever.

Achilles: Useful. Achilles is invulnerable, and has a touch of super-strength, but almost certainly not enough to overcome Vikter's telekinesis. Unlike Peggy, he'll definitely survive the fall if he's dropped.

Hiro: Almost certainly useless. He's almost certainly strong enough to ignore the telekinetic force. Like, 98% positive.

Stalwart: Useless. He weighs as much as a space station.

Dabbler: Useless. Either she'll find a way out of it, or she'll find a way to make it not matter (ranged attacks and the like).

Anvil: Possibly useful. Anvil has a fair amount of base super-strength, rating a 3/5 to Hiro's 4/5. It's possible that Vekter is capable of lifting her into the air with her resisting the lift...unless the telekinesis lifting her counts as kinetic energy. Then he's boned.

Mr. Amorphous: Probably useful. He's about as strong as Anvil, but he doesn't have the potential escape option of kinetic absorbtion.

Math: Useful. Math is a capable combatant, but he doesn't have the strength necessary to resist the lift; he also doesn't have a useful ranged attack, or any method of escaping the telekinetic hold. It's possible he could survive the fall, though.

Harem: Useless. She can teleport, and has her own ways of taking people out.

Jiggawatt: Useless. Sure, she'd probably get lifted into the sky...at which point she begins raining down lightning bolts. She also has a "sort-of" flight power.

All in all, this tactic affects 3 for sure, and maybe 5, depending on Vekter's power. However, we also have to take into account that it might be more difficult to lift multiple objects (two rocks, sure, but two brick superheroes?). Furthermore, of the 3 (or 5) lifted, only one is in any reasonable danger from falling if the power is released.

But you know what? Let's say that he's capable of pulling off both the "lift them into the air" plan and the "stopping their limbs in battle" plan. ARC-Light finds him, tells Maxima who he is, where he is, and what he can do, she pieces everything together at lightning speed, and then she takes off the kiddie gloves and wipes the floor with everyone but Vehemence. The rest of them are there to give Maxima an opportunity to size up the opponents, as well as to let her conserve her energy for the real fight. TBH, there's only a "team" because A) Maxima is too Lawful Good to do stuff without government approval and rules, and B) the government wants as many supers on their side as possible, which wouldn't happen if they used Maxima as their "We have the best, so we don't need anybody else" version of Captain America.

Well first off, that was two different options he could have used instead of his "Stand there and do nothing" ploy. I didnt mean he should do both at once. As for anvil, how exactly would she resist being lifted? Unless she got warning and shoved her arms into the ground and held onto freaking bedrock or something absurd like that. And the point of the lifting isnt to hurt them, its to remove them from play. If you can remove 5 of the members, that right there further increases the gap from 30-13 to 29-8. (I figure holding 5 people up would take him out of the rest of the fight too) And yes maxima would then be forced to take part and obliterate, that wasnt really the point, I was just saying that these would be better tactics than he was using. Ones that would actually be useful. The "hold them still for a second" move would obviously be more fatal, so its probably the better option. Its also the harder one to spot him using. A half dozen people floating is hard to miss, members of your side holding still for a critical moment is a lot harder to spot and figure out.

*EDIT* As for my personal view of a mary sue. First off, it can be male or female (hi gary stu) but to me, the best example of a mary or gary is a self insert in fanfiction. If you read fanfiction you will know what I am talking about, The self insert goes into this universe and proceeds to solve all the problems of the plot and even interpersonal relationships and does it with ease. Its wish fulfillment in its rawest form, they get to totally upstage the actual hero of the series, book, movie, whatever, and get to be the awesome one that saves the day because they know the right way to do everything. If they were a self insert in lotr, they would suggest everyone wear these anti balrog pants he brought, "just in case" before they head for the mines. If it was a harry potter fanfic, they would gather up all the horocruxes by the end of first year and feed them to a dementor. If it was a naruto fic he would have a billion bits of advice stolen from a thousand other stories on how to make naruto 10x more awesome than he was. And if it was a Grrl Power fanfic, they would suggest sydney "try this" with her mystery orbs and of course that would unlock their unknown abilities, because of course thats how it works. Then give her a hundred different possible applications to try because we have had a couple years to think about this, while she has been a part of a super team for less than 12 hours.

Hyper competency, near universal friendship, and more power than most others in the story have to back up that unnatural skill level are generally my personal signs of mary/gary status. It rarely ever gets as bad as those fanfics I mentioned, and I dont think we are there with sydney. Its just too damn early in the story to nod my head and say, "Yup/nope thats (not) a sue" But even putting that aside, I dont think she will be there anyways. Like I said in earlier posts, I was just playing devils advocate because I could see how certain factoids could be perceived that way. Anyways, as for the story itself, im loving the fight, but im such a nerd for "how does it work" that I almost wish it was over just so we could skip ahead to a training sequence. I REALLY want to see sydneys abilities get tested. I want to see how fast she can fly, and how maneuverable she is. I want to see what the limit is on her shield, what she can do with the lighthook, if they can figure out any change to the truesight communication orb thing, and of course, poke at the unknowns till we find out what they can do.

[DaveB]

Ya know, there's something magical about this threads ability to draw in Web Comic Creators to discuss there work. =)

I only found it cause it was driving enough traffic to my page to climb high enough in my analytics for me to see it. :) It's telling of OOtS's success that this forum seems to get more traffic than my comic. I shall adjust my eventual Kickstarter's expectations accordingly. :)

[Ibrinar]

I think the commonly used definition of Mary Sue has slipped from that original definition to "female character that seems too good at stuff" The undercurrent usually being that women aren't allowed to be as good at stuff as men, otherwise there would be endless forum threads about how Batman is totally a Mary Sue.

I don't pay enough attention to Mary Sue debates to tell whether it's mainly aimed at female characters, but the concept often gets reduced to "too good at stuff". And I don't like that. Being outstanding alone does not make you a Sue.
Well the definition is quite fluid but if that is sufficient for a given definition of Sue then you would have to establish separately that being that kind of Sue is a bad thing. Anyway people with great abilities are in many stories, because many stories are about outstanding people and their deeds. When you just talk about how powerful and skilled they are when determining whether they are a Mary Sue you remove much of the meaning from the term.
I wouldn't call Onepunch-Man a Mary Sue just because he utterly outclasses everyone in his world. (Though the rules for comedy characters are different anyway.)
Yes being ridiculously skilled and powerful alone can be a problem when handled wrong, for instance someone picking up a skill requiring years of training and outclassing everyone in weeks. (Without cheating or being some kind of super intelligence). But in general power alone isn't enough.
The definition of a Mary Sue is quite fluid as I said, so it's hard to say what makes someone one.
For me for instance a character being adored by everyone without reason is a good sign for a Sue. I don't mean people being friendly to a friendly person, but the whole world being their Fan Club with a few exceptions who are antagonists.
And there are other reasons I would call a character a Sue but they are all quite subjective. Just look at the "Interpretations of Mary Sue" part on tvtropes http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

I think it's probably easier to talk about whether a character has traits that make the story worse. Because the term Mary Sue sometimes gets used so widely that it becomes questionable whether them being a Mary Sue is a bad thing.


PS: There is a invulnerable character in the team, why aren't they outfitting him with weapons, gadgets or alien tech to actually make him useful. I mean he is ****ing invulnerable.

[Traab]

.


PS: There is a invulnerable character in the team, why aren't they outfitting him with weapons, gadgets or alien tech to actually make him useful. I mean he is ****ing invulnerable.

I actually agree with that. So far his main purpose seems to be "draw agro and let people hammer on me till someone else beats them" God that eye stab was just WRONG.

[Steckie]

Oh and I just want to say up here in the comments that the solution people are suggesting rather a lot, which is that Sydney put an airtight shield around him probably isn’t a viable solution, because as far as has been revealed in the comic, Sydney doesn’t know how to make the force field around someone else. She has to be in it, and by default it’s centered on her, though that can be adjusted. I only mention it here because I’ve seen it get suggested about 14 times per page for the last several comics. I’ll go ahead and spoil this: she doesn’t know how to do that, it’s not a deus ex I’m holding on to, and it would be super OP if she could anyway.

Looks like it is now canon that Sydney's shield is centered on her.

[Lamech]

Wait DaveB is the Author? Have you heard of Worm? Read it.It should give you good ideas for powers.

[Calemyr]

You know, I don't buy her logic. Overwhelming him with blasts still has all sorts of failure points. A death aura would have put a stop to that right quick for example. Or much more worrying, body swapping would have kept him nice and safe, AND matched up more or less with what we see in the comic. Maybe she got lucky and its not really any power, but something more restricted. Or maybe Achilles is now evil. Never know.

I will admit they took a bit of a gamble with that strategy (Vehemence proved in the most recent strip that, with super powers, there are multiple paths to the same result), but I don't think it was an unreasonable one. If you leave out the "standard' powers of strength, toughness, and flight, very few supers have more than one native "special" power (although they frequently have a lot of variations on that one power, such as Jiggawatt's lighting). Given that framework, it makes much more sense that a "nemesis" power would be more readily overtaxed by a diversity of powers working in concert than a single extraordinarily strong one. Perhaps more care and deliberation should have been called for, but I believe the resolution was more than sufficient for what was effectively a bit player in the overall fight.

Peggy and Concrete: I'm actually surprised that concrete girl went home. No real reason she can't just manifest right next to Peggy too close for a Claymore to do any good. Also worrisome, I don't think the author actually specified that Concrete Girl went home.

A few of the villains aren't really that interested in the attack, and just thought it would be fun. One of them was thrilled at the prospect of surrendering, for instance. I have to think getting "killed" three times in fairly rapid succession is a good enough excuse to say "Screw it, there's gotta be something good on TV."

Mary Sueness: If anyone qualifies its Dabbler. Some of her antics could very well get her charged with sexual assault in the real world. Well not really since she's an alien/demon and thus doesn't qualify as a person, human, or even an animal or plant or fungus. Which really means she would be in even worse trouble. And don't even get me started on how the court case would go "We want to subpoena Ms. Civilian Consultant" in which case the governments options amount to lying to the court or admitting they let a demon/alien mess with everything.

Three points I have to make here:
1) "Some"? Clearly either you haven't been paying enough attention or she hasn't been trying hard enough. Practically anything she does is at least a very strong case for harassment.

2) She'd also have an absolute field day with words like "subpoena" and "harassment".

3) And, quite frankly, I agree with your actual point. She's an absurd extreme hybrid in origins, power sources, and actual abilities. She breaks any semblance of rules with every skill she uses, is able to come to a draw with the golden Ace herself, and has already tied herself to the biggest apparent loose thread in the story thus far (Maxima's demon). Amusingly, the only skill she has that doesn't break the boundaries of credibility is the most mundane one she's displayed: she's apparently not that good of a fencer. She strikes me as Sydney squared on the Sue scale, largely because of her (thus far) unbroken role as a Karma Houdini. Sydney has proven herself far more competent than her experience would suggest, and her antics are somewhat disruptive, but they've never been too far out of place. She hasn't done anything illegal (on screen), she hasn't even done anything particularly immoral (again on screen). She's simply wild and off-beat and energetic, and all that either annoys people or amuses them (or both in Maxima's case). Dabbler, on the other hand, is downright offensive in some regards, with blatant harassment as her base behavior and building from there, yet she gets away with it for no known reason beyond "it's Dabbler". Maybe they're just being culturally tolerant? Anyway, my definition of Sue is that the world bends and breaks to cater to a Sue's whims, to make them the most special and wonderful snowflake of all, and if I had to pick one person that qualifies for, it's Dabbler.

[Traab]

With Dabbler I disagree about the sueishness. Its downplayed by her not being front and center very often, and also the fact that she spent half of this fight getting her butt kicked. I mean come on, she trapped (briefly) Mack the Knife, and eventually beat heavenly sword, though she got a butt whuppin through most of the fight. Dabbler may be one of the only people to fight maxima to a standstill, but we sure as heck didnt see much of that tonight. As far as harassment goes, she seems to focus it on maxima who is just plain fun to mess with, and they also have some history. I have seen friends mess with each other at least that badly from time to time. As you might recall, it was Harem who pulled the half monty on every male hero on the team at once.

[BannedInSchool]

Anyway, my definition of Sue is that the world bends and breaks to cater to a Sue's whims, to make them the most special and wonderful snowflake of all, and if I had to pick one person that qualifies for, it's Dabbler.

Although if the entire comic were just Dabbler's wish fulfillment...

[Lamech]

Her antics are the thing you get away with right up until someone decides that no, messing with the minds of all the press people isn't okay, or that yes they will press charges. People will avert their eyes to worse when it comes down to it. Especially if they are getting something out of it like a super-powerful alien to help.

[Calemyr]

With Dabbler I disagree about the sueishness. Its downplayed by her not being front and center very often, and also the fact that she spent half of this fight getting her butt kicked. I mean come on, she trapped (briefly) Mack the Knife, and eventually beat heavenly sword, though she got a butt whuppin through most of the fight. Dabbler may be one of the only people to fight maxima to a standstill, but we sure as heck didnt see much of that tonight. As far as harassment goes, she seems to focus it on maxima who is just plain fun to mess with, and they also have some history. I have seen friends mess with each other at least that badly from time to time. As you might recall, it was Harem who pulled the half monty on every male hero on the team at once.

Heh, I wouldn't actually say anyone's a Sue in the strip. They all remain consistent with their characters and their victories and losses follow from that. To be a Sue (in my mind), the world must bend its rules to ensure you remain perfect. I just meant that, if anyone should be considered for the label, it's Little Miss "Every origin and power type all at once, who can blatantly grope her superior officer and just about mind rape the entire board of directors without any comeuppance".

And yes, Harem is another walking lawsuit. But she does get some comeuppance, for at least one of her pranks. "The wedgie felt 'round the world", anyone?

[Traab]

Heh, I wouldn't actually say anyone's a Sue in the strip. They all remain consistent with their characters and their victories and losses follow from that. To be a Sue (in my mind), the world must bend its rules to ensure you remain perfect. I just meant that, if anyone should be considered for the label, it's Little Miss "Every origin and power type all at once, who can blatantly grope her superior officer and just about mind rape the entire board of directors without any comeuppance".

And yes, Harem is another walking lawsuit. But she does get some comeuppance, for at least one of her pranks. "The wedgie felt 'round the world", anyone?

Yeah, that was awesome. And I agree, noone is a sue here, there are a number of characters who have one or two sign posts, like dabbler being such a ridiculous munchkin D&D character setup, but its always offset by something, such as her being more background than foreground, and in battle she really isnt that powerful so far as we can tell. All we have is word of god that yeah, she tied with maxima, but we didnt see that in her fights so far. Also, keep in mind she is a civilian consultant, not a member of the military. I would imagine that muddies up the water of punishing her, as well as the fact that she IS a succubus. She isnt seducing and riding everyone in sight, so they are willing to let go some fairly mild (compared to what she could be doing instead) sexual harassment because to do otherwise would be to punish a frog for floating.

In addition to that, this is clearly not being run as a highly disciplined unit when not in combat. There is a lot of slack cut for everyone. Pranks, jokes, mild sexual harassment, it reminds me of that episode of the simpsons episode where homer was trying to keep bart from being gay and they went to the steel mill. "We work hard, and we play hard." (And the place turns into a gay dance club) Basically, there isnt any malice, everyone is joking around, and everyone is generally just fine with that, though dabbler REALLY enjoys messing with Maxima.

[Calemyr]

You know, my strategy for this situation would probably result in a TPK, but here it is anyway:

Theory: Maxima's assumption is correct, although she underestimated Vehemence's capacity. The colors of his tattoos indicates his current condition: black->grey->white->glowing white = warming up. Green = optimal. Yellow = risky, sustained activity may result in damage and/or failure. Red = danger - failure, overload, or permanent damage is highly likely.

Theory: There's only one attack even nearly as violent as Maxima's Devilkiller Blast (yeah, I made that up, I just like the sound of it) and that is Halo's PPO.

Strategy:
1) Get team to gather surviving allies and enemies into a tight concentration a distance from the fight.
2) Reduce Harem count to 3 (to increase teleporting efficiency)
3) Position Halo on the other side of V from Maxima.
4) Position Anvil with an unconscious Death Toll behind Halo. Give Anvil something to wake up Death Toll (just a little) quickly.
5) Harem B stays nearby Halo. Harem C prepares to retrieve Maxima ASAP. Harem A remains safely with survivors.
6) Halo swaps orbs for Shield and PPO.
7) Halo shouts "Now!"
*) Halo fires PPO.
*) Maxima fires Devilkiller Blast
*) Harems B and C attempt to retrieve Halo and Maxima as soon as remotely safe to do so.
8) Halo uses Telepresence Orb to create clone of herself where she fired the blast.
*) Dabbler conjures illusion hiding Anvil and Death Toll in dissipating debris cloud.
9) If V attempts to strike Halo, Anvil emerges using Death Toll as a shield or moving to receive the blow herself as situation and personal ethics dictate.

This assumes that Maxima can keep him busy long enough to orchestrate the plan, of course, and V seems to be enjoying the situation too much to hurry it.

If the joint attack fails to redline V, then Situation Normal: All Fowled Up.
If V redlines and is disabled/killed, then everything's golden. Just a crater to explain to the public.
If V redlines and explodes, everyone's safely behind Halo's shield barring Anvil and Death Toll. Anvil is capable of making proper reactive decision.
If V is powered up by the attack and moves to strike Halo for interfering (and upping her involvement in the fight):
* Death Toll's ability is too instant not to be instinctive. Even half awake he should be able to neutralize it.
* Anvil's ability to absorb kinetic energy would be put to the test, but either she gets a big power boost or he's already too powerful to fight.

End result: Substantial risk of things getting even worse, but high probability of resolving issue if resolution is still even possible.

[tomandtish]

Sydney trips up V in comic #252, indicating that his basic strength at the time wasn't enough to overcome the lighthook's force output. However, in the very next comic, he hurls Anvil so hard that in the comic after that (after several lines of dialogue), she's still got about 10 seconds left before she lands, so he's got to be pretty strong. Afterwards, he lifts his foot up from under the foot of a guy who weighs as much as a space station, making him ridiculously strong.

Actually we can't tell if it is enough to overcome the lighthook at that point. It is much easier to trip someone who is charging than it is to do something else, so it ma not have been that quick an increase in strength versus just being tripped while charging (which can happen to anyone). One of the things I liked about the comic was the physics: Max had to channel some power to flight to keep herself from being knocked back by his punch.

[BannedInSchool]

Lieutenant Sydney Scoville, who's perfect in every way and whom everybody loves, saves the day!

But it occurs to me that reason Mary Sue-ness has expanded is that plenty of characters would have some of those characteristics, not even in a bad way. I think it's more about incorporating them into the story poorly that makes a Mary Sue. Anyway...

@DaveB: please write Sydney's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech, at least up to the mic being cut off.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But it occurs to me that reason Mary Sue-ness has expanded is that plenty of characters would have some of those characteristics, not even in a bad way. I think it's more about incorporating them into the story poorly that makes a Mary Sue.

Honestly, Mary Sues probably only exist in bad fanfic. That doesn't mean that "not Mary Sue" makes them a good character.

[Traab]

Alternate strategy, they pipe in the Barney theme song till Vehemence kills himself.

[Hopeless]

Why not ask Dabbler if she has a doohickey that could be attached to V's back and teleport him into orbit or the moon?

A doohickey that can shrink him?

Or have your magi conjure a portal and banish him to another dimension assuming they can open it beneath his feet?

[AvatarVecna]

I spent a lot of my high school years reading fanfiction, so my definition of Mary Sue is a little broader than most people's definitions. What it comes down to, for me, isn't whether or not the character can lose, it's whether or not they do lose; it's almost certainly wish fulfillment, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an author insert. If limits are defined, but never taken advantage of, they may as well not exist. It's like Dragonball Z: at what point do the power level limits stop meaning anything, if you can just shout hard enough to make your level shoot up to an arbitrarily high point? If a character creates an air-tight force field to protect themselves from poison gas, it's only a Dues Ex Machina if they don't eventually need to drop it to breathe; if they can breathe just fine with the shield up, it's only "air tight" for the purpose of keeping the character safe.

To be clear, I don't think any of the characters in this comic are Mary Sues, I just understand why people are concerned that some of them might be: Syndey is a geek girl with a disarming personality (that has endeared her to both a hardened war veteran superhero and a violence-powered supervillain) and a wide array of versatile and powerful abilities, with some of her powers making her straight up Untouchable; Maxima has powers that have her at roughly Wonder Woman levels if 5 different powers, and has a floating pool of power that can increase those 5, up to and even beyond Superman/Thor/Hulk strength and toughness, or up to Flash speed (I think); Dabbler is essentially the 2nd or 3rd best at everything, giving her essentially infinite things she's better at than everyone else. But these characters also have limits: Sydney nearly got killed when someone surprised her, and her ability to assist in the fighting is severely limited when she has to have her force field orb up all the time; Maxima is being pushed to her limits by Vehemence, even going so far as to dump all her power into toughness; Dabbler got her ass handed to her for trying to prove her swordswomanship against a master swordswoman.

I usually like to compare it to DMNPCS: sometimes, when you're playing a roleplaying game, the person running the game will have a character themselves; this is something most players with a bit of experience know to be wary of, because it is the essence of the Mary Sue. This DMNPC will probably have at least a few "levels" on the PCs (or whatever the system's equivalent is), and will generally be played more optimally than the DM would otherwise play their own characters in another person's game. Rolls may be fudged in their favor, or not even rolled at all (they just succeed, because they're awesome). Oh sure, they may have weak saves, or lower stats, or next to no optimal tactics...but they'll always roll high enough, or the bad guys will avoid targeting them, or...something, it doesn't really matter what plot device the DM whips out to save their own character. The point is that, no matter how weak the character is mechanically, it has Plot Armor and wields a mighty Plot Hammer; despite it's supposed "weaknesses", it will never be beaten in battle or killed. It will never lose, because it is the DM's favored NPC.

None of these characters are Mary Sues of any kind. Some are, admittedly, showing warning signs, but they've got just as many reasons why they can't be Mary Sues as they have reasons why they could be Mary Sues.

@DaveB

--first glance--

"Heh, someone found that funny. Nice going, AV; you made someone laugh."

--second glance--

"Oh, hey, they've got a Maxima avatar...and they're pretty new to the forum."

--scrolls down, reads--

"HOLY CRAP THAT'S THE AUTHOR."

But seriously, glad to know someone found that amusing, what with Budget Halo and everything. And you make some good points about Mary Sues.

@Lamech

Her logic is partially based on the following assumption: there is no such thing as impossible. There is no obstacle that can't be overcome, there is no enemy that can't be beaten down with enough force. Granted, stuff like what you're suggesting is definitely possible, but it requires a power level that Periwinkle Buttsniffer doesn't have. His power, mechanically speaking, probably functions similarly to Maxima's: he has a certain number of "points" he can shift into a wide variety of defenses, and his powers just choose whichever avenue makes survival the easiest. The weakness of the power is that it can only react in one particular way at a time, and only up to a particular level.

Also, it is more restricted than just "any power": his power is reactive and, more importantly, defensive in nature. A death aura isn't really a defensive power, except in the incredibly cheesy interpretation of "dead people can't harm me" that some people have attempted to use when trying to optimize the D&D 3.5 PrC Apostle of Peace. Same thing with Body swapping.

@Traab

Regardless of what he could use his powers for, we still come back to the "Maxima takes off the kiddie gloves and sweeps the floor with everyone" option. Still, I agree on at least one point: he should've been doing something during the fight, even if it was just throwing cars around or something. As for the "holding them still briefly", that probably requires quite a bit of skill, control, timing, and intelligence, as well as power for some of the stronger heroes, none of which Vekter has exhibited at any point (with the possible exception of power, depending on how strong his telekinesis would have to be to fit your personal definition). I could see Magneto or Yoda pulling off crap like that in a fight, but Vekter? No, not a chance. It also probably requires line of sight, although that's hardly an excuse when Opal was also right there, not doing anything.

@Ibrinar

Why is Achilles just used for aggro? Well, the in-comic reason is that his only other power is low-level super-strength; his beyond-super invulnerability is what he's useful for. Peggy's using the biggest gun she had access to, and it still counts as non-lethal because she's shooting super-villains. What's Achilles gonna do, dual-wield missile launchers? Not saying that wouldn't be cool, but it would start to border on ridiculousness. As for the out-of-comic reason, it's the same reason the author brought up (through Maxima) for Wolverine getting hit all the time: his power is only visible if someone hits him.

[Frozen_Feet]

I think the commonly used definition of Mary Sue has slipped from that original definition to "female character that seems too good at stuff" The undercurrent usually being that women aren't allowed to be as good at stuff as men, otherwise there would be endless forum threads about how Batman is totally a Mary Sue.

It has actually slipped to "character I don't like that seems too good at stuff". There are a ton of arguments about how Batman is a Sue. Or Superman. Or Son Goku. Occasionally, a male version, like Marty Stu, is used to refer to them instead of the original Mary Sue, but the meaning is the same.

---

Now, to other things. Reading through the latest comic's commentary, I foresee a different weakness in Maxima's powers. The key part is here:

The real trouble happens if someone forces her into a strength dump – someone with gravity powers or enormously powerful telekenesis or something like that. It would leave her only slightly tougher than a really butch tank, which again, not that much of a weakness, but against right super powers that can still be a problem, as we saw how the tank fared in at the firing

That's pretty tough, yes. But based on her known feats, Maxima's full output particle beam or strenght would vastly exceed the durability of any tank. Based on this, I'd say disproportionate maximization of any of her other abilities would make her liable to being destroyed by her own powers. There's a built-in optimization dilemma in her powerset which makes it possible for her to be too strong for her own good.

[Traab]

It has actually slipped to "character I don't like that seems too good at stuff". There are a ton of arguments about how Batman is a Sue. Or Superman. Or Son Goku. Occasionally, a male version, like Marty Stu, is used to refer to them instead of the original Mary Sue, but the meaning is the same.

---

Now, to other things. Reading through the latest comic's commentary, I foresee a different weakness in Maxima's powers. The key part is here:



That's pretty tough, yes. But based on her known feats, Maxima's full output particle beam or strenght would vastly exceed the durability of any tank. Based on this, I'd say disproportionate maximization of any of her other abilities would make her liable to being destroyed by her own powers. There's a built-in optimization dilemma in her powerset which makes it possible for her to be too strong for her own good.

Thats true, if she did a full strength armor and speed dump into her big bang attack, she would likely obliterate herself if she used it at close range. However, interesting bit there is, during the demonstration there was a delay before the big boom. It hit the target, blasted right down into it, hummed for several seconds, then KABLOOEY! Plenty of time to redistribute her stats back into armor and strength (Or whatever combo is best used to withstand the boom) But im pretty sure she would only use an attack on that level if she had to wipe out a small town. Assuming of course that she really WAS still holding back after that demonstration. Because to get that effect would require leaving herself vulnerable to a counter attack from whatever enemy she is fighting capable of pushing her that far to injure or kill.