Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[HalfTangible]

It's really kind of amazing how hard it is to build a 500 point list >.> And how much I don't care that it sucks once it's done...

Blood Angels - 502 points

Spoiler

Show

Reclusiarch 155 (130 base)
-Jump Pack

Assault Marines 225 (100)
+5 Marines
Meltagun
Powerfist

Scouts 122 (75)
Sniper Rifles
+2 Scouts
Camo Cloaks

Basic battle plan: The assault marines will combat squad. The Reclusiarch will run with the meltagun-carrying half. The 7 scouts will park on an objective faaaar away from the enemy and apply far-ranged support.

Played two games with this list. The first was Annihilation against a force of necrons. The second was... Something about two primary objectives, can't remember the mission name... Against blood angels.

Necrons- overlord, warriors, praetorians, immortals.
BA - two tactical marine squads (I think 5 and 6 man) furioso librarian and captain

Against the necrons, I won largely because of range and line of sight. My assault marines and Reclusiarch attacked his unit of praetorians and kept them tied up. His immortals were too far away from my scouts, who fired on the overlord and warriors and, while they didn't wipe out the unit entirely, kept them behind cover and from really getting into the fray. The immortals were close enough to the marines and praetorians that I could charge them as soon as the latter went down. After a few immortals died, he conceded, seeing as he'd lost almost all of his squads and I lost 3 soldiers. One scout, two assault marines.

The fellow BA player, however, won by that bonus kill point you get for killing an enemy warlord. First, we both parked a squad onto our objectives (i took a couple of shots at his but he moved his units BEHIND the gigantic statue after, so neither the scouts nor his second tactical squad took a large part in the fight) and then threw the rest at each other.

I met his librarian dreadnaught with my assault marines. Now, i thought this would go very very badly. Turns out I got to kill him with regular assault marines. Lost my reclusiarch (bloody insta-kill) but i didn't lose my sergeant or meltagun. I brought the rest of the squad up to attack the Captain and smaller tactical squad. IF ANYONE TELLS ME BA CAPTAINS ARE BAD AGAIN, I WOULD LIKE TO DIRECT YOU TO THIS FIGHT BECAUSE THAT CAPTAIN'S ATTACKS WON HIM THE BLOODY GAME. I made the mistake of accepting his power-mauled captain's challenge to my power-fisted sergeant. He dropped like a rock, so i lost the power fist attacks. We then spent the rest of the game trying to resolve that melee (i moved my scouts a bit but i couldn't get LOS without moving off of the objective) and while my units ran twice, he didn't catch them in a sweeping advance.

He still wiped them out, of course.

We both had one objective and he got my Warlord, so he won by one point.

All in all, fun night =)

[Renegade Paladin]

A new direction for my army. 1850 points.

Spoiler

Show

Suddenly, Demolishers!

1850 points

Company Command Squad - 315
-Vox-caster
-Creed, Kell, Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 335
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Two heavy flamers
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon

Infantry Platoon - 295
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three grenade launchers
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Commissar
---Power weapon
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Leman Russ Squadron - 585
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons

This is thirty points under 1850. I'm not sure what to do with it; could give Creed's squad a pair of plasma guns (or a pair of bodyguards for maximum survivability), but it's already a huge Death Star without the actual hitting power of a Death Star as it is. On the other hand, Creed is the lynchpin of the entire list, and a sensible opponent will be gunning for him anyway, so maybe that really doesn't matter. The blob with the Commissar is the target for "Honour of Cadia," and the Demolishers go behind the little dressing screen on the table flank with "Tactical Genius: Do Not Look" written on the front.

[shadowwalker64]

A new direction for my army. 1850 points.

Spoiler

Show

Suddenly, Demolishers!

1850 points

Company Command Squad - 315
-Vox-caster
-Creed, Kell, Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Infantry Platoon - 335
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Two heavy flamers
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon
-Infantry squad
--Lascannon

Infantry Platoon - 295
-Platoon Command Squad
--Three grenade launchers
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Commissar
---Power weapon
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher
--Vox-caster
-Infantry squad
--Power weapon, grenade launcher

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Leman Russ Squadron - 585
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons
-Demolisher
--Multimelta sponsons

This is thirty points under 1850. I'm not sure what to do with it; could give Creed's squad a pair of plasma guns (or a pair of bodyguards for maximum survivability), but it's already a huge Death Star without the actual hitting power of a Death Star as it is. On the other hand, Creed is the lynchpin of the entire list, and a sensible opponent will be gunning for him anyway, so maybe that really doesn't matter. The blob with the Commissar is the target for "Honour of Cadia," and the Demolishers go behind the little dressing screen on the table flank with "Tactical Genius: Do Not Look" written on the front.

Problems:

1) The army seems like a nice little concept, but overall I think that you're overdoing it with the demolishers. Whilst I understand that you want to maximise the amount of demolishers that benefit from Tactical Genius, three cannons and three multi-meltas at full BS (What you will be firing, if I remember how Lumbering behemoth acts in conjunction with new rules) is overkill for any target.

2) You lack any anti-air whatsoever, and, whilst I do think you have enough bodies to ignore flyers, most will still be able to take a large toll on your ground troops (all except for vendetta, I think). If they manage to get rear armour hits on your demolishers somehow (I'm assuming you will be trying to outflank as close as possible to your opponents table edge to avoid flyer fire when appropriate), then the majority of your army's hitting power is effectively neutered, leaving everything else as easy pickings.

3) You lack presence before your demolishers show up. No army is scared of what you have on the board when it comes to the beginning of the game. 3 twin-linked lascannons are only ever going to take out 1 vehicle max every turn, and that assuming that there isn't anything blocking LOS to valuable targets. You have 3 Chimera chassis that are rolling up (I'm assuming you're keeping creed at the back to shout out orders), but those can be killed in 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting by the majority of army comps. Even if you do get in there, I don't think it will provide much of a threat, since you only have three meltaguns on a single platform, they'll probably be dead by that time.

Recommendations:

1)What I would recommend you do is skimp on the demolishers, freeing up a lot of points which you could use elsewhere. The main thing I see that you are missing is a few Vendettas, which not only will solve your AA problem, but will also help bolster your long-range threat, at least from mid-game.

2) I don't see Kell or the vox-casters being too useful, but I just prefer having more guns as opposed to an upgrade character which hardly gives my HWT more efficiency (in fact, 6 ACs deal more HP damage than 3 Twin-linked Lascannons at all AV levels except for 13 and 14, and that's discounting the fact that they are better against infantry and that they are still TL against Vehicles and MCs some of the time). I would personally get rid of the non-blob platoon altogether, adding another squad to your infantry blob and getting several AC HWT to meet your long-range fire support needs. Whilst this does reduce your presence midfield even more, not only are they one of the most efficient forms of ranged anti-tank in the whole game due to weight of fire, but you also save much more in terms of points (or you get more out of them). Not sure how to make up for the disparagement in mech, so I would completely remove the hellhound and vet squad in favour of more blob, but that's your call.

3) Switch the grenade launchers on the blob platoon for flamers, but I think that's a matter of preference. Kraks and/or meltabombs on some, if not all of the squads would be nice too, but optional. I also hope those are power axes, but I'm assuming you know that already :P

Hope this helps

[Renegade Paladin]

I know the Demolishers are overkill for most things. I usually see a pair of Land Raiders, generally run in tandem (and thus scatter-bait). I could take the multimeltas off, but the sponsons are glued to the sides on two of my three Russes. The weapons come out, but empty sponsons just kind of look stupid.

The only one who runs fliers in the metagame? This guy.

Kell is there for three reasons. First, taking orders on Ld 10 is awesome. Second, my primary opposition is Blood Angels, and he is the only source of I4 power weapons in the codex for when they're inevitably prying the Chimera door open on turn 2. (This is the other reason I'm considering bodyguards in addition besides additional Look Out, Sir!; to raise the squad's majority WS to 4.) Third, I put a lot of work into converting that model, and I want to use it. The sad fact of my metagame as it stands is that I will be assaulted early and assaulted often, and there is not enough shooting in the entire Guard to stop it from happening. It's to the point where I'm seriously considering Terminator allies just to put a halt to that nonsense.

[Squark]

I decided to play around with my space wolves list a bit. It's still 1250 points, but now I don't have to proxy as many missile fangs. Comments?

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Wolf Lord -205 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Saga of the Bear

Rune Priest -120 pts
-Runic Sword (Because WYSIWYG), Runic Armor
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Elites: Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (x7) -170 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
-Drop Pod

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (x6) -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers
TOTAL:1249 points

Also, which HQ do you think makes more sense in the drop pod, and should that influence my choice of warlord (If I decide to switch up who's in the drop pod; for instance, the Rune Priest is an excellent choice against necrons where he can drop down and use jaws to annihilate a squad, while the Wolf Lord might be a better choice at other times)?

[Cheesegear]

Comments?

I'll go.

Spoiler

Show

Wolf Lord - 205 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Saga of the Bear

Quite a significant chunk of points. Especially for 1250. Unfortunately, a better Wolf Lord is more points. I'd consider dropping him to a Battle Leader. But then you'd lose Bear. I don't like it. But there's no solution to make him better without costing more points, or taking him out entirely - which may not be something you want to do.

Wolf Lords are expensive.

Rune Priest -120 pts
-Runic Sword (Because WYSIWYG), Runic Armor
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

I don't like the Runic Armour. I just don't think he needs it. He's got a 2+ Invulnerable against shooting attacks, and if your Rune Priest is in Assault, something has gone wrong and you probably can't do anything about it anyway. Which is why I'm not particularly fussed about the Rune Sword.

A Rune Priest is generally an auto-include. And, again, it's only 1250, and having two HQs in 1250 - especially one that costs 200 points - isn't ideal.

Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma

You need a Wolf Lord and Arjac in 1250?
I really, really dislike Combi-Plasmas. But that's just me. Your Rune Priest also makes me sad because there's no Chooser or Beastslayer, and I'm trying to find points so you can do that.

Grey Hunters Pack (x7) -170 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen
-Drop Pod

With Wolf Lord and Arjac? ...Death Stars really don't belong in 1250 games. You can't support them.

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

Looks good to me. Wolf Standards aren't great. You could drop them with no significant downside.

Grey Hunters Pack (x10) -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Yep.

Long Fangs Pack (x6) -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers

My issue with this is that 1250 is not a large game. You've got 4 units on the board, and 3 if your opponent goes first*. Considering you've got a 200 point HQ, I'd drop him and add a second unit of Long Fangs just to spread out the targets.

* If you go first, you should be okay. If you go second...Not so much. You'll be ruined if your opponent has any clue and has Allied himself with even one Strike Knight squad, or Hell...You can just have a bad Scatter on the 'Pod and that's game over.

[Provengreil]

Also, which HQ do you think makes more sense in the drop pod, and should that influence my choice of warlord (If I decide to switch up who's in the drop pod; for instance, the Rune Priest is an excellent choice against necrons where he can drop down and use jaws to annihilate a squad, while the Wolf Lord might be a better choice at other times)?

With the list in its current form, the lord for sure. You've no other fast way to get him into combat, and Living Lightning doesn't have a range limit anyway. I'd say put personal traits on the wolf lord and ram him in there as fast as you can.

Also, I agree with CG that you've a bit too much concentrated firepower for such a small list. Consider dropping Arjac or the wolf lord for extra transports or something, get those grey hunters into position. More longfangs really can't hurt either(you at least).

[Squark]

My question is, if not a combi-plasma, what should go in the Plasma squad? a Combi-flamer (Actually, that's not a bad idea given that it can also go in the drop pod squad if I'm against a list that has absolutely nothing for a melta to shoot)?

Revised list

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Rune Priest -120 pts
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
--Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning

Elites: Wolf Guard Pack -274 pts
-Arjac Rockfist
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-?

Troops: 8 Grey Hunters -185 pts
-Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

10 Grey Hunters -180 pts
-2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard Mark of the Wulfen

10 Grey Hunters -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

Heavy support: 6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

Total: 1199 points (51 points left)

Cutting the Wolf Lord gives me enough points for a second Long Fangs Pack, and still leaves me with 50 points left over. The question is... I don't know what to use them for.

[Provengreil]

If you can free up ten points somehow(drop a wolf standard, or both?) a predator is all right for its cost, and better if you can find the last few for bolter sponsons. A lone wolf is also an excellent way to use the last few points in a list. Grey hunters can have a lot more wargear, so you can soak up a few extra points that way as well. A power weapon of some sort on the drop pod squad would, at this point, be a good choice IMO. Some transportation for the longfangs could bring an extra gun or two to the field and give you redeployability.

[BoSheck]

I'd say negatory on the pred. Just a target for anti-tank weaponry, where there is no real clear one before. I'm a big fan of Terminator Lone Wolves, and a lot of people will disagree with me on them, but they really do so much heavy lifting. Also, for the price of Arjac's Squad...you could just actually have 5 or more wolf guard terminators with some upgrades. Don't get me wrong, Arjac is a pretty heavy lifter, but opportunity cost and all that in small point value game.

[Squark]

*Does math in head* How does this look? (If anyone has the space wolves codex on them, check my math on the Terminator's point cost. I'm away from my books for a week, so I'm just using the number I remember for the price of the Chainfist and the Cyclone Missile Launcher.
+wolf Guard terminators list

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Rune Priest -120 pts
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
--Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning

Elites: 5 Wolf Guard Terminators -240 pts
-Terminator armor, Power maul, Heavy Flamer
-Terminator armor, Power maul, Combi-melta
-Terminator armor, Power axe, Combi-melta
-Terminator armor, Power axe, Combi-melta
-Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Combi-melta
--Drop Pod

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders-129 pts
-Powerfist, Combi-melta
-Powerfist, Combi-plasma
-Powerfist, Combi-flamer

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -160 pts
-2 Plasmaguns

10 Grey Hunters -155 pts
-2 Meltaguns

10 Grey Hunters -155 pts
-2 Meltaguns

Heavy support: 6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

6 Long Fangs -140 pts
-5 Missile Launchers

Total: 1239 points

[BoSheck]

I left my codex in another county, so I'm not 100% sure on the problem, but I know for a fact your wolfguard terminators are a bit over on points.
Without the drop pod even included, they should be something like 235. That, too, is from memory, and I haven't built a wolf list in a long time.

Also you could consolidate them into 1 single unit of 8, then you don't always have to send in all the terminators and can break some off to be packleaderswithout blunting your melta-drop.

[Squark]

I left my codex in another county, so I'm not 100% sure on the problem, but I know for a fact your wolfguard terminators are a bit over on points.
Without the drop pod even included, they should be something like 235. That, too, is from memory, and I haven't built a wolf list in a long time.

Also you could consolidate them into 1 single unit of 8, then you don't always have to send in all the terminators and can break some off to be packleaderswithout blunting your melta-drop.

I was planning to consolidate the wolf guard into one unit after I finished tweaking the list, I just split them into two units for organization purposes. And yeah, I spotted the math error there. Honestly, a heavy flamer makes more sense there anyway. That leaves me with 10 points to spare, which I can use for one wolf standard or a pair of 5 point upgrades (Say, a wolf tail talisman for the rune priest and melta bombs for one of the power axe terminators)

[lord_khaine]

So, my local store is holding a small friendly tournament of 800 points, and im trying to build a necron army that fun to play against, while still having a chance of winning.

Spoiler

Show

Overlord Necromus Prime, Semipernal weave and warscythe - 115
9 warrios - 117
9 warriors -117
C'tan shard Volcron, thunderbolt and spirit dust - 250
2 Wraiths, whipcoils, - 90
2 Tomb spyders - 100

Since its my first 6th ed necron list, then im hoping for a bit of feedback on it, and the C'tan is secured a position due to him being a recent conversion

[Squark]

I think you either need to beef the wraith unit up, or drop it. I'd probably replace it with 2 crypteks for those warriors. Also, your C'tan Shard could really use Lord of the Flame over Spirit Dust. Lastly, I think your tomb spyders need gloom prisms.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm, so i either have to find 35 points for another wraith, or something usefull to do with cryptecs for 90 points.

or i guess i could remove the whip coils, and use them to chase down targets who cant fight back.

The reason for spirit dust however, is that i suspect there will be a lot of city ruins with 4+ cover safe, the stealth would then provide a welcome 3+ cover safe to deal with poisoned weapons and weight of fire.

[HalfTangible]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

[Cheesegear]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

Short answer; Because BAs get Reclusiarchs making Captains pointless unless you want a Terminator Captain - which you don't.

The long answer is probably the thing you don't understand.

[Hootman]

I don't like following advice i don't understand. Could someone please explain to me why BA captains are, apparently, so very bad? >.>

They're not actually bad, there are just multiple better options--Librarians, Chaplains, and even some of the special characters are all much better for their points in general. Anything Captain can do (aside from Blood Rodeo) the others can do just as well and do with special abilities on top of it. They also tend to be slightly cheaper, which is nice.

[Cheesegear]

Anything Captain can do (aside from Blood Rodeo) the others can do just as well and do with special abilities on top of it. They also tend to be slightly cheaper, which is nice.

Blood Angels don't need a Captain for Blood Rodeo - and they never have. And in fact still function better with Librarians and Reclusiarchs. The only good Captain is a Codex Captain on a Bike.

[Squark]

Blood Angels don't need a Captain for Blood Rodeo - and they never have. And in fact still function better with Librarians and Reclusiarchs. The only good Captain is a Codex Captain on a Bike.

Well, also Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves.

@Lord_Khaine 90 points is more than enough for 2 Crypteks... Let me think...

Cryptek Harbinger of Destruction: 35 points
Mindshackle Scarabs for your Lord: 20 points
Cryptek Harbinger of Destuction: 35 points

That's 90 points right there, and if you want, you can change one or both of the Harbingers of Destruction into cheaper versions to free up points for some Cryptek wargear. I know you said you wanted it to be fun to play against, but... Necron Overlords who are not Nemesor Zahndrekh should always have mindshackle scarabs. Besides, they're only really annoying when 2 or more of them are in one combat.

[lord_khaine]

Must admit i also liked the idea of having more models on the board to draw attention away from my Cryptech, though i can see the point in having some additional firepower from the harbringers.

Mindshackle scarabs were a good call however, but how does they work in regard to a challenge?

[Voidhawk]

Must admit i also liked the idea of having more models on the board to draw attention away from my Cryptech, though i can see the point in having some additional firepower from the harbringers.

Mindshackle scarabs were a good call however, but how does they work in regard to a challenge?

In a challenge you only count as being in base contact with the opponent, so the scarabs can only hit him. Moreover, hits generated by the character can only be assigned to himself. Giving the opponent a 50% or better chance of punching himself to death is really good.

It also led to the hilarious situation in a Cron vs Cron game I played, where we both brought Destroyer Lords as Warlords, and they met each other on the field of honour. They flew forwards, crashed into one another, and then proceeded to spend the entire challenge beating themselves round the head with their own weapons and died.

As a side note, they're only 15 points, except on the Destroyer Lord, where they're 20.

[Cheesegear]

Well, also Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves.

Rune Priests say otherwise. The massive points cost of a Wolf Lord (minimum about 200, before Thunderwolf), also says otherwise.

[Maugan Ra]

Figured I might as well put up the Guard lists I tend to use for general review. The 210th Cadian stands at somewhere around 6,500pts when all fielded together, though that is naturally quite a rare thing nowadays.

(It does happen occasionally, though, and is rather horrific when it does. A pure Guard force is obscene at apocolypse levels, especially when you have enough models to field several distinct formations.)

Anyway, first up, the Infantry Horde list. The mechanized list shall be along later, once I've reviewed all the different tanks I actually have.

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Company Command Squad (320pts)
- Ursarker E. Creed and Jarren Kell
- Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet
- Veteran with Vox-caster, two with las guns
- All have Carapace armour

Company Command squad (85pts)
- Vox caster, Carapace armour

Elites

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

Troops

Platoon Command squad Alpha (50pts)
- Vox caster, three grenade launchers

4 x Infantry Squads (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

2 x Heavy Weapons squad (180pts)
- Three missile launchers each

3 x Heavy Weapons squads (315pts
- Three Lascannons each

Platoon Command squad Beta (45pts)
- Vox caster and two grenade launchers

4 x Infantry squad (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

3 x Heavy Weapon squads (225pts)
- Six Autocannons, three heavy bolters

Total = 2,000pts exactly

Tactics: In case it wasn't obvious, this list basically revolves around massed firepower and lots of orders. The Quad Guns come from Imperial Armour Apocoplypse 2, and are specifically noted as being elites choices in smaller lists. Each of them throws out four S5 templates a turn at AP5, and I have six of them. The heavy weapons squads can all be given orders to make them twin-linked when shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures, and as they're troops choices, they work wonderfully for sitting on objectives.

The infantry squads are, essentially, meat shields. They tend to head straight for the enemy deployment zone or contested objectives, with the platoon commanders tagging along to enhance their rate of fire or get them running faster. Ten squads of objective-capturing troops are not a target that can be freely ignored, especially when they pump out so many shots a turn. The Legionnairre who scoffs at a las gun, after all, has never charged across an open field at a hundred of them. The flamethrowers are also useful for simply sticking hits on the enemy.

[Renegade Paladin]

What gets Tactical Genius? You're paying a lot of points for Creed, so something should be scouting.

Also, AP4 and better is common as dirt. Your command squad is probably better off with camo cloaks and a big piece of cover.

Edit: You're overcosting yourself, too. Carapace armor on command squads doesn't cost that much; your non-Creed one should be 75 points and Creed's should be 310.

[Maugan Ra]

I'll admit, nothing is really designed with Tactical Genius in mind. I take Creed mostly for the 24" radius on his orders and the fact that he issues four of them a turn. Kell is there for a mix of thematic reasons and in order to allow receiving units to test for orders on Creed's leadership of 10.

You might have a point about the carapace. I rarely get to rely on cover for the command squad though, since officers have to be able to draw line of sight to enemy models to use things like Bring it Down. And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.

[Cheesegear]

And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.

As a Character, Creed still has a 4+ Invulnerable vs. Shooting (he's not Independent ). However, Bodyguards are just as good and don't require Look Out rolls.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'll admit, nothing is really designed with Tactical Genius in mind. I take Creed mostly for the 24" radius on his orders and the fact that he issues four of them a turn. Kell is there for a mix of thematic reasons and in order to allow receiving units to test for orders on Creed's leadership of 10.

You might have a point about the carapace. I rarely get to rely on cover for the command squad though, since officers have to be able to draw line of sight to enemy models to use things like Bring it Down. And with the new wound allocation rules, having Creed sticking his head out means that Creed is going to be the one getting shot.

No, Kell is going to be the one getting shot. You seem to misunderstand how cover works, though; the entire model doesn't have to be out of sight to get a cover save. If it did, it would defeat the purpose of cover since you can't shoot targets you can't see at all.

You can at least give Tactical Genius to one of the platoons. Even if they don't outflank, being able to scout a blob up has its uses. Not having a Commissar means they're going to fold in assault very, very quickly, though.

[thereaper]

Can a Dreadnought being carrying by a Stormraven (in this case a Venerable one) still fire? If so, are there any restrictions on it?