Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Timberwolf]

GK Terminators aren't great. Compared to Thunder Hammer Deathwing, they don't quite match up - especially if you're meta has figured out that 6th is all about Plasma.

QFT

I played an all up Deathwing list last knight with my Wolves.

Those of us who have been around a while, you remember the Cheesegear's Eldar opponent with the Avatar's reaction to Captain Falcon constantly killing it ? My Wolf lord has started to get the same from this poor guy but it was the Plasma that got him this time.

However, it's the Terminators I was wanting to mention.

Last week was what cemented the Wolf Lord's nascent Captain Falconesque reputation. He was playing his Grey Knights, I had my Wolf Lord and all his bodyguards had been killed. As my opponent was determined to kill him, he got charged by 10 Interceptors, 6 Terminators, Thrawn and Stern while the only thing that could really help him in melee, my Lone Wolf, was slow poking on the other side moving inexorably towards the Vindicare. My Wolf lord killed all of them on his own after several rounds of combat and only took a single wound. (A very great man once said to me "Always take Saga of the Bear." to which I would like to add "And always take Runic armour".) I can't say I'm that impressed with the GKT's survivability in the face of determined opposition based on that. If he'd have pulled back and shot me with Psycannons though, that may have been very different.

[Squark]

And, just to be safe, bring a belt of russ or storm shield along too.

[Timberwolf]

Of course.

He does work out at about 300 points though for the full whack of...

Wolf Lord
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Runic Armour
Wolftooth Necklace
Thunderwolf
2 Fenrisian Wolves
Saga of the Bear

I've never been sure if the Wolf tail talisman's worthwhile with the Runic armour on there so I tend not to bother. He's expensive but draws a stupid amount of fre while the Vindicators close in. Still, having a psychological weapon is totally worth it, especially if your opponent devotes the entirity of his shooting and close combat to killing him and failing. Nothing quite like saving the Vindicare's shot with the Stormshield and then thumbing your nose at all the psycannons.

[Vaz]

Is it not worth swapping the +1 Inv off the Stormshield for +1 Attacl, and a reroll to hit/wound S5 AP3 weapon to pet you just eat Champions or anything that is not a Terminator? Both have the Specialist rule after all.

So many Sergeants are trawling around with Paxes or Fists now just to crank out another wound or pose a threat to characters who themselves are taking Power Axes.

Anyone yet had a game with/against the Betrayal Legion list?

[Squark]

Is it not worth swapping the +1 Inv off the Stormshield for +1 Attacl, and a reroll to hit/wound S5 AP3 weapon to pet you just eat Champions or anything that is not a Terminator? Both have the Specialist rule after all.

So many Sergeants are trawling around with Paxes or Fists now just to crank out another wound or pose a threat to characters who themselves are taking Power Axes.

Anyone yet had a game with/against the Betrayal Legion list?

For a captain, certainly. But Wolf Lords don't come standard with an invulnerable save; they have to pay points for their version of the iron halo. And there, you've got to consider if paying 25 points for the wolf claw and a lower invulnerable save compared to a storm shield.

[Vaz]

Good catch; mind fart there.

[Squark]

Also, a silly idea for a death star that's been bouncing around in my head, more for the coolness factor than the actual competitiveness.

HQ: Wolf Lord (Warlord, personal trait)* -290 points
-Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Thunderwolf Mount, wolf tooth necklace, 2 Fenrisian Wolves, Saga of the Bear

Wolf Lord -295 points
-Wolf Claw, Powerfist, Runic Armor, Belt of Russ, Thunderwolf Mount, Wolftail talisman, 2 Fenrisian wolves, Saga of the Warrior Born

Basically, the Wolf Lords form up together in a unit all to there lonesome. The Warlord takes challenges and hopes he rolls a 4 for traits, while the other Wolf Lord just carves anything not in a challenge to bits. I really wish I could make the first wolf lord into a Battle Leader, so he could be the company champion (And thus make it like 20% fluffier), but sadly Battle Leaders don't get saga of the bear.

*Proposed List-writing Etiquette- The warlord is the first HQ in the list, all the time.

[Vaz]

Sounds a bit "un-deathstarry" to rely on a 1 in 6 roll. Course you could always houserule a friendly game "if can choose you can choose yours, etc), but then why are you throwing TWC Lords around in a "friendly"?

[Cheesegear]

but then why are you throwing TWC Lords around in a "friendly"?

What? Really? Since when does a 'friendly' game mean that I have to deliberately tone down my list?

[Trixie]

*Proposed List-writing Etiquette- The warlord is the first HQ in the list, all the time.

What if your Warlord is Troop Unit?

[Cheesegear]

What if your Warlord is Troop Unit?

A Warlord must be an HQ. So I don't know what you mean.

[Trixie]

I am talking about IG Bastonne exploit but it looks like it must have been fixed now.

[Cheesegear]

I am talking about IG Bastonne exploit but it looks like it must have been fixed now.

I don't believe that has ever been a thing. I assume you're talking about the fact that Bastonne has Leadership 10 and has the possibility of being the highest Leadership in your army. But, he's still not an HQ which is a rule in the main rulebook and has never, ever changed.

[Trixie]

No, it was done in different manner, but can't find it now, see new FAQ with changes is out, and besides it was silly RAW argument unlikely to hold for long...

[Vaz]

@Cheesegear; its not written in the rules; don't be obtuse. But if you keep friends by proceeding to rub sweaty man-meat in their face by using such units all the time, good for you.

Me personally, I like to mix it up. I played FW Elysians before IA8/6th made them "broken".

[Squark]

Sounds a bit "un-deathstarry" to rely on a 1 in 6 roll. Course you could always houserule a friendly game "if can choose you can choose yours, etc), but then why are you throwing TWC Lords around in a "friendly"?

EH? I wasn't saying the first lord had to get a 4 on Personal traits, merely that that makes him a lot better at what he was doing already.

And, well, let's just say there's no one agreed upon definition of a friendly list, and leave it at that.

[Gauntlet]

Speaking of Wolves, I've been messing around with my choices and come up with a 1500 list I feel reasonably happy with.

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Logan Grimnar- 275

Rune Priest- 100

Troops

10 Grey Hunters- 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters- 160
Plasmagun x2

3 Wolf Guard- 244
Combi-Melta, Meltabombs
Combi-Melta, Meltabombs
Arjac Rockfist

Fast Attack

3 Thunderwolves- 180
Storm Shield

Heavy Support

5 Long Fangs 150
Multi-Melta x4
Drop Pod

5 Long Fangs 115
Missile Launcher x4

5 Long Fangs 115
Missile Launcher x4

I feel like I have a reasonable spread of capabilities (maybe a bit weak on the anti-flyer front, but I have Divination + Long Fangs at least) but I might not have enough actual bodies on the board.
Also, I'm feeling like a combi-melta and two plasmaguns is the most effective Grey Hunter build for the cost, but I'm not certain.

Edit: Also, I think I'm being inefficient by not using the Allies rules at all. I would like to shore up my weakness to flyers or pick up some more maneuvrable units or something, but I don't really like any of my options when working with Wolves. Are there any armies that go particularly well with the Sons of Russ?

[Timberwolf]

Speaking of Wolves, I've been messing around with my choices and come up with a 1500 list I feel reasonably happy with.

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Logan Grimnar- 275

Rune Priest- 100

Troops

10 Grey Hunters- 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters- 160
Plasmagun x2

3 Wolf Guard- 244
Combi-Melta, Meltabombs
Combi-Melta, Meltabombs
Arjac Rockfist

Fast Attack

3 Thunderwolves- 180
Storm Shield

Heavy Support

5 Long Fangs 150
Multi-Melta x4
Drop Pod

5 Long Fangs 115
Missile Launcher x4

5 Long Fangs 115
Missile Launcher x4

Edit: Also, I think I'm being inefficient by not using the Allies rules at all. I would like to shore up my weakness to flyers or pick up some more maneuvrable units or something, but I don't really like any of my options when working with Wolves. Are there any armies that go particularly well with the Sons of Russ?

I see a Loganbomb. Just as an aside, I've had great joy with a variation on the classic using the new disembark 6'.

Instead of using Long Fangs, which don't score and need Logan to give them Relentless, use Wolf Guard and have Logan give them either Preferred Enemy (for a big Nid or something like that) or Tank hunters for, well, tanks. It's not hard to be in 2d6 melta range from a drop pod, even with a terrible scatter and you're hitting with more shots and doing it a lot harder. It only takes a couple of long fangs missing and the classic bomb isn't as effective whereas the Wolf Guard route has redundancy, plus it requires your opponent to deal with them or they'll be capping an objective and being a nightmare to get rid of. It also frees up a heavy support slot for if you want to expand your list some.

The Wolves are pretty much stuffed for dedicated Flyer / Anti flyer without breaking out the allies / an Aegis line. I personally hate Aegis lines as they're usually about as useful as a chocolate hammer for me, yet my opponents can roll 6's to penetrate each and every time when they're using them.

That said, it's not inefficiency if you're using just a straight list. In fact, it might even be better as you are able to capitalise on what is good in a codex and have the points available to do that properly without having to squeeze in some deadweight stuff from another codex before you can have what you want from it. (seriously, I'm glad Codex marine scouts are the same as Blood Angel ones so I can just drop a BA scout squad.) I personally don't like spending the points on a HQ from the allied codex, I feel it's at least 100 points wasted really and the troops choices aren't really what I want to use, but I've got to have them, which is more wasted points. Enter Tyberos the Red Wake, a squad of Lightning Claw Terminators and a Storm Eagle if I'm not too fussy about my opponent speaking to me ever again.

[Cheesegear]

Enter Tyberos the Red Wake, a squad of Lightning Claw Terminators and a Storm Eagle if I'm not too fussy about my opponent speaking to me ever again.

Best.

I like that since Imperial Armour is allowed at several tournaments, it means Forgeworld is more relevant, which means it is slowly creeping into casual play which means awesome.

[Penguinizer]

Speaking of Forge World, I was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the Decimator or Contemptor Dreadnought? I was thinking of getting one or the other for Apocalypse games and as a painting piece but I can't decide which one.

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of Forge World, I was wondering if anyone has any opinions on the Decimator or Contemptor Dreadnought?

The good news is, that Chaos Elites - for the majority - aren't very good, so you're not passing up anything by taking an AV13 Dreadnought that can get back up again. The bad news is that it's WS and I3 which is going to cause a problem, which is why I suggest going with the Storm Lasers, since it's S8 base it doesn't need the DCCWs.

The bad news is that for 195 points (plus points for Storm Lasers), you can be bringing Forgefiends and Maulerfiends that do mostly the same thing but aren't FA13 - which may or may not be a big deal. But, for what the Decimator does - if you're going Forgeworld anyway - a Spined Chaos Beast is better.

Sadly, the Chaos Contemptors are not as good as the Imperial ones. And, are actually unplayable in 40K as they aren't given an FO slot (on their Facebook, FW has said CConts are Elites, but that's not 'official' per se). But, since you're playing Apocalypse, it doesn't matter because there are no slots.

I'd go with the Decimator. I'd also go with Mark of Nurgle - which I know is the theme anyway - and double Storm Lasers for 40K, double Butcher Cannons for Apocalypse.

[Penguinizer]

Sounds like a solid plan. I'll grab both the lasers and the cannons in case I end up having to counts-as it as a Hellbrute and since both are solid. Thanks for the opinion.

[Timberwolf]

Best.

I like that since Imperial Armour is allowed at several tournaments, it means Forgeworld is more relevant, which means it is slowly creeping into casual play which means awesome.

It's the Terminator squad as troops that flat out does it for me. No messing around with a Tac squad or scouts which I can get from the BA. They can't have Termis as troops, so he's worth doing and the whole thing is a beautifully self contained unit of pure awesome with added win and a side of "What the heck is that ??" from the opponent.

My old meta had a lot of Forgeworld and people's casual lists there would be considered overpowered tournament lists in my new meta. It's a shame, but I'm trying to push the whole "if you can't beat me using what you have, try something else, it's ok to proxy, I'm not a complete git". I'm also looking forward to the day when my impression of Cassandra bears fruit and people start thinking about flyer defence, which means my triple Storm Pigeon BA list of doom can come back out.

[Squark]

I'm also looking forward to the day when my impression of Cassandra bears fruit and people start thinking about flyer defence, which means my triple Storm Pigeon BA list of doom can come back out.

Question related to this; What are people's opinions on running only a single Flier in a list? Do you think the flier can do its job, or is it falling into the same problem as running only 2 rhinos/plazerbacks or a single vindicator? Because i it's the latter, if you're running an army without fliers of its own, it feels like their only choice is to buy an Aegis Defense line.

Or be a lucky bastard and shoot down fliers with a lone Long Fang who couldn't see the body of the force. The look on my opponent's face when that Razorwing went down to a shot in the dark with a single Krak Missile was priceless.

[Timberwolf]

Question related to this; What are people's opinions on running only a single Flier in a list? Do you think the flier can do its job, or is it falling into the same problem as running only 2 rhinos/plazerbacks or a single vindicator? Because i it's the latter, if you're running an army without fliers of its own, it feels like their only choice is to buy an Aegis Defense line.

It depends really. If I'm doing fliers, I tend to build around them. But that's only if I mean it. Currently, I'm having to tread carefully and turn out lists that I consider hopelessly simple / flawed in order to have a decent game In this instance, 1 Stormraven is as much as I'll put in. However, If I mean it, I want at least 2.

Assuming that your opponent also has one (or 2), you need to be going second and picking up a 4 on Strategic for Warlord traits so you stand a chance of delaying them in reserve when you need to. When they do come on, you then proceed to waste your opponents fliers with extreme prejudice. Once that's done, turn the guns on the ground stuff and cackle maniacally. A single flier is good for emergency support, but they tend not to have the firepower for clearing serious trouble spots. Even with the best will in the world, a Storm Talon doesn't have the firepower for clearing big blobs or reliably zapping a bigish tank. 2 Stormtalons working together though, is totally worth it. Generally, I believe they do fall into the Vindicator slot of "If you're taking 1, take 2".

The Stormraven / Storm Eagle is a difficult unit to include in a general Fliers post because often you want to be unloading it which affects things (in other words, always take 2, one can be clearing the ground while the other unloads that Death Company Dread into that Guard blob). However, with an out and out gunship / fighter, take at least 2 as they tend to be cheapish and worth the trouble they can cause.

[Renegade Paladin]

Question related to this; What are people's opinions on running only a single Flier in a list?

Thus far I have never played more than a single Valkyrie. It has also never, ever, not even once, been shot down. I've finished a Vulture gunship and am working on another pair of Valkyries, and will wreck my meta (again) come the January tournament.

Speaking of Valkyries and Guard, it seems to me that the new edition has made Sergeant Harker a lot better. First, units with Move Through Cover don't take dangerous terrain tests, so he can bail out of the back of a Valkyrie without the usual obscene risks. Also, he's a character with a heavy bolter, meaning he gets to allocate HB shots. The changes to camo cloaks mean that if the player feels like splurging, Forward Sentries now stacks with the stealth portion of Catachan Devils. I personally think he was a steal in 5th for what he did, and none of this is changing that opinion.

[LeSwordfish]

I usually run one Vendetta. It gets shot down a fair bit, but usually after doing a fair bit of damage and drawing well more than 130pts of firepower.

[thereaper]

On that note, how have people been fairing against lists that spam fliers? By my math, a Necron Air Force can theoretically kill 30-40 marines a game (assuming they get 3-4 turns of shooting). I can't think of a lot of lists that could counter that.

I myself have yet to face such a list, but that's why I ask.

[Cheesegear]

On that note, how have people been fairing against lists that spam fliers?

Pretty good. You've just got to have Twin-Linked stuff in your list, or at least two Fliers of your own. Preferred Enemy, TLAC Dreadnoughts, Guard Orders, Divination, and simple multiple-shot weapons are the name of the game of 6th Ed.
Also, Coteaz.

The important thing, is that your opponent's Fliers don't come on 'til Turn 2, and if he's spamming them, it's unlikely he's going to have a lot on the board in Turn 1, your goal is to wreck your opponent's ground forces on Turn 1 (have you not kitted your army full-shooty yet?), if you went first, you've got two turns to do it instead - and that's Flier-spam's weakness.

Typically you shouldn't be running more than two or three Fliers in your list, which is perfectly fine for most armies since that's how many FO Slots you have. But, Necron players at the beginning of 6th had a kneejerk reaction and bought lots. The meta caught up, and, simply it's not that scary.

However, if you're playing ~2000 points and the Necron player has Allied himself with say, Orks for his ground Troops, you might have some issues. But, you're 2000 points, have you Allied yourself with IG, SW or GKs? Why not?

[Zorg]

Dark Millenium Online: Making the wrong game.