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2012-07-09, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
*begins drown-healing in the flood of replies*
By the way, all, given that we now have 56 suggestions, it's probably time to start pawing through the full list to see which ones you want to vote on; let's get those ten votes apiece spread out!
How's this: You can put up to one negative vote on any entry, starting with this post.
Some of each, really. For example, candle of invocation is just bad design; it says what it means, and means what it says, and the result is stupidly broken. DWK is basically just poor wording: it took years for the web community to figure out exactly what was said.
Now, teleport, despite being something of a story-breaker power, isn't really broken in the same sense; it doesn't mess up the mathematical core of the game, it just adds some unusually effective options. It's not even open-ended in the same way polymorph is.
I'm only putting whole base classes in under protest, because that's usually too simplistic IMO ("lololol the whole PHB!"). However, arguably the entire monk class is just wrong, even in isolation, so that can go in. Tidy vote accounting much appreciated, BTW. Are you using your last vote for Polymorph?
OK, assuming the other two are also votes.
I forget which illumian sigil it is too. Is this a vote for cancer mage?
Well, for better or for worse, people seem to actually use it. Downvote noted, though.
That's a pretty clear-cut example, and in errata no less!
I feel like some joke about millihelens and ugly rules is waiting to be made here.
Heh, I'd forgotten about those almost entirely. Good ol' Paizo.
Monsters are fine. I don't remember the name of the Frostburn spell any more specifically, unfortunately, although I know which one you mean; I'll mark down the vote once I get the name.
Hah, wow. That's actually a new one on me.
Mind expanding on this a little more? I vaguely recall something about this, but I don't have MM5 myself.
Truenamer vote noted.
Are you also voting for IHS?
Actually I'm including 3.0, 3.5, and PF in here, just because I feel like it. So yeah, it's in!
I've not yet been able to figure out what they were thinking when they made Synchronicity; it seems to be designed for the express purpose of breaking the action economy, and it's useless without shenanigans.
I can't do wildcards really, but everything else is duly noted.
I'm going to put you down for Void Disciple (1) then.Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-07-09 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Bumping thread
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-10, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
the size is somewhat limited, and you can't let go of the item. beyond that, the ability does not restrict what sort of item you can make.
magic items are items. (there's seriously been an attempt to read conjuring magic items as unworking by claiming magic items aren't items, really!) scroll of miracle? sure. dorje of reality revision? looks fine. ring of infinite mentally-activated-as-free-action wishes with infinite xp allotted? but of course!
lots of things are items. some of them are even occasionally useful.
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2012-07-10, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Wow, the thread really got stalled by that page glitch.
Anyway, I forgot to mention that I changed some of my votes around. Current list: dust of sneezing and choking, chicken-infested, IHS (because it's so absurdly open-ended), drowning (because either healing or infini-drowning is terrible), candle of invocation (yeah....), adamantine horror (level 9 SLA at-will at CR 9 = terrible), elemental weird (either free-action divinations or their other stupid abilities would be enough alone), nightstick (couldn't you have made it un-stacking?), planar bubble (so brokenly unlimited), epic spellcasting (either useless or unstoppable).
So far, only four of you have used up your votes.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-10, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Yeah, I have to agree with Truenamer. My "Naughty Words" section of my guide wouldn't exist otherwise. To this day, I still find at least one new and stupid thing whenever I do a full read-through of the Truenamer chapter. You can imagine how many times I've read it. There's still more.
I don't know if I'm actually voting for it, but I'd like to list a lot of the Factotum's abilities for consideration. The Factotum is very well-designed, but very poorly written.
Most of the other obvious stuff is already being covered. I'll speak up if I think of anything else.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2012-07-10, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Ah, if I have any votes left just put them on monk for now.
Come on people, vote monk! If you've been on this forum for more than a month you must have seen one of the ubiquitous monk debates, such as here or here. What other rules flaw has spawned forum memes like 'monkday'?
(edit) also, if this thread gets any longer maybe you should list the top-15 or top-20 options?
(edit edit) I'm going to downvote drowning, because it isn't abusable in actual gameplay and because most DMs will intuitively get it right; the abuse comes from an overal nitpicky reading of the rules, and it is clear from writing and context what is actually meant. It doesn't belong in a list of truly crappy designs.Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2012-07-10 at 02:56 AM.
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2012-07-10, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I feel the need to mention these:
Dirge Singer (PrC): Specifically designed for bards, but doesn't stack with bard levels or allow bards their already slow spell progression? Thank you. -.-
Favored Soul (Class): Not really a bad class honestly, but badly written. A divine caster that doesn't get turn undead, domains or even Knowledge (Religion)? Those things are somewhat required for, well, divine stuff.
Bonus points for being the only caster class in all of 3.5 that has split casting stats. (CHA for bonus spells, WIS for DC's.)
Level Adjustment and Challenge Rating (Rule): Look we all understand the point for them, but did you have to make them so convoluted? Especially making LA's apply differently for PC's and monsters? Really?
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2012-07-10, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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2012-07-10, 03:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I would be more than surprised if you didn't vote for Truenamer, after all you've been through.
Hmm, that's a possibility, but right now more than half of the suggestions have only one vote (one even has zero).
Also a Top Ten has more punch.
Don't worry, though, the list of suggestions is sorted by votes, and is sorta-kinda sort-stable on time.
(edit edit) I'm going to downvote drowning, because it isn't abusable in actual gameplay and because most DMs will intuitively get it right; the abuse comes from an overal nitpicky reading of the rules, and it is clear from writing and context what is actually meant. It doesn't belong in a list of truly crappy designs.
As a side note, this uses up your last vote for now, so Monk is still at 2.
I'm gonna split these apart and mark you down for one vote each, if that's fine with you.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-10, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Fourth Edition
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2012-07-10, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-07-10, 03:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-10, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Gimme 3 on the dust, 3 on Hulking Hurler, 3 on the Forsaker Prestige Class, and downvote "Wizard" once
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2012-07-10, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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2012-07-10, 04:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
3 for Iron Heart Surge
3 for Cancer Mage
3 for Truenamer
1 for Drowning
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2012-07-10, 04:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-07-10, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
3 votes for: Genie monsters. Efretti and Noble Djinn able to cast wish multiple times a day XP free is one of the main things that makes Candle of Invocation and Planar Binding broken. Fix this and you fix or at least reduce many other problems.
3 votes for: Persistent Spell feat. Overpowered plus ambiguously written. The whole "fixed or personal range" limitation (whatever "fixed" means) and cheezy ways to overcome that (and whether they work) lead to countless debates. Fix this and you rein in many broken builds.
3 votes for: Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil PrC. Overpowered plus ambiguously written. Do wardings effect you? Do they block antimagic fields?
1 final vote for the current leader: Iron Heart Surge maneuver. I Iron Heart Surge the sun, enough said.
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2012-07-10, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Okay, in that case put me down for:
Iron Heart Surge (1)
Truenamer (1)
Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer (1)
Beholder Mage (1)
Ur-Priest (1)
Planar Shepherd (1)
Manipulate Form (1)
Thought Bottle (1)
Persist Spell (1)
Monster races - The whole LA and RHD thing just doesn't work most of the time (1)If build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.
If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
My Homebrew
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2012-07-10, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
We're up to 68 total, and all the Top Ten have at least four votes.
Any suggestions on better organizing the addendum of suggestions? It's getting pretty unwieldy now.
I'm not entirely sure I'd agree with that assessment. Can you explain?
I have actually been seriously considering homebrewing a "Persevering Spell" metamagic to replace it, with different mechanics (no auto-24h-duration, for one thing).
For now I'm considering this separate from the existing Planar Bubble entry, despite wishing to fold them together.
By this do you mean the current "LA rules" entry, or something a little different? For now I'm assuming the former, but correct me if I am incorrect.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-10, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Yes, the Erudite. Which is in the same book as Practiced Manifester. And, come to think of it, gets two votes from me for being extremely sloppily written (although unlike many people I actually think it's a good class, just not a good writeup; with a little tinkering it makes a nice alternative to the psion).
Ah, ninjaed. But I'm still voting for Erudite (twice, as stated before).
Okay, I'm speaking in ignorance here so I might be out of line, but I think this might be less broken than people seem to think it is (though it could still qualify for bad wording, so this isn't a neg-vote or anything yet). Curmudgeon pointed out on the Simple Rules Q thread that you can't initiate a stance while unable to move or unable to take actions, so while IHS is still quite broad, it doesn't cure the truly nasty conditions like Stunned or Petrified, because you can't use it while affected by such things. Again, please ignore me if everyone already knows this, I'm kinda late to the party with all of 3E and still haven't even read Tome of Battle.
I had interpreted JoAT as proof that having a half-skill rank gave you the ability to use the skill, since you were trained in it. I know there's at least one rule that says otherwise, but JoAT might have been intended to override that rule, and they just weren't explicit as they should have been (though again that does qualify as bad writing).
Agreed on both counts. I'll toss one vote toward the Exotic Weapon Mind Blade feats as well. The nerfing of Astral Construct is infuriating, but doesn't count as bad writing so much as a decision I strenuously disagree with. And likewise, the Divine Mind is a horribly weak class, very badly designed, but not especially badly-written.
I can't say as I agree here, personally. Granting the players "chosen one" status and saying the rules of the universe are different from them is a perfectly legitimate stylistic choice which the DM has every right to make, and having the rules default to it isn't unreasonable if the designers were of the opinion that this was a good way to run games. Even if they were mistaken in that belief, it was a legitimate perspective for them to work from when trying to manufacture a product whose intended purpose was for people to have fun; some people might not have fun knowing that they're super-special Mary Sues in a universe of nameless mooks, but others very well might, so the company was within its rights to make that call, IMO.
Metamagic shenanigans are inherently destabilizing/overpowering (i.e., they'll wreck your game), so I think Incantatrix (free metamagic!) should be on the list.
Bonus spells from Strength is Aeshkrau (and Dexterity is Uurkrau).
I think the lack of Knowledge: Religion was intended to be a nod to their not having formal clerical training, but why they get Arcana instead is baffling. Personally I'm glad they don't have domains or turn undead, but it would be nice if they got more from their deity than just a favored weapon. I also don't like that they invariably get either angel wings or demon wings - what if I want to play a FS of, say, Obad-Hai or Primus? Or the Great Mother, who is Evil but has nothing whatsoever to do with demons apart from living in the Abyss.
I'll throw in one vote for FS just because I'm pretty sure it doesn't have its starting gold listed (at least not where I could find it while making three of them on separate occasions), so for a class that's intended to be a slightly more militant Cleric, it's rather a problem not being able to tell whether I can afford a suit of decent armor at level 1.
Oh, and that brings me to a new one which gets two votes: the entire Equpment chapter of PHB, where they randomly attached nonsensical costs to items. Tower shield? 30 GP. Masterwork dagger? 302 gp. Masterwork Greatsword? 350 gp. Suit of Full Plate? 1500 gp. Masterwork Full Plate? 1650 gp. Spiked masterwork Full Plate with a masterwork shield with masterwork spikes? You get the idea. To say nothing of how silly the entire thing becomes when your GM starts you at level 2 and uses the WBL table to entirely invalidate the concept of various classes having different amounts of gold at CC. So yeah, two votes for the entire mess of equipment costs, starting gold and WBL.
Bonus points for being the only caster class in all of 3.5 that has split casting stats. (CHA for bonus spells, WIS for DC's.)
(And ninja'ed again.)
Level Adjustment and Challenge Rating (Rule): Look we all understand the point for them, but did you have to make them so convoluted? Especially making LA's apply differently for PC's and monsters? Really?
I'm not really counting votes; I think it's more like a measure of certainty. I'm putting one vote toward things that I find dubious, two to thinks that are definitely screwy, and would put three toward something that was utterly and completely absurd. I have yet to see anything that I'm certain would be worth three.Last edited by willpell; 2012-07-10 at 08:23 AM.
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2012-07-10, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Most borked for PF is probably the Synthesist Summoner, with Antagonize coming closely behind. What, you can find anything to do with pounce, three natural attacks and the ability to pretty much completely dump three stats? Mix the two for even moar rage!
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2012-07-10, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
1 for Synthesist (no need for physical stats? Really?)
1 for Dust of sneezing and choking (costing gold really, if it was unnattainable it would be fine)
1 for Reincarnation (resetting age categories? Really?)
1 for Cancer mage (name alone qualifies)
1 for flaws (specifically being able go get feats for them)
1 for 3.5 shapechanging/polymorph/whateveryouknowwhatimean
1 for vow of poverty (a nice idea in theory, only used for min/maxed resulting in poor role-playing in practice with dumb rules regarding not being able to use items)
1 for epic spellcasting (I'd vote for the epic rules in general, but spellcasting does stand out since we have to be specific)
1 for Kobolds as true dragons (I actually like Kobolds, but every time I use them I get confronted with the stigma of them being used to abuse stuff)
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2012-07-10, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
1 for Truenamer (DCs work how, exactly?)
1 for Drowning (Although I see how it was SUPPOSED to work, they just wrote it horribly)
1 for Adamantine Clockwork Horror (Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction at will? Been nice knowing you)
1 for Monk (Sounds great in concept, except not)
1 for Monstrous Crab (Nearly killed half my group with this one)
1 for Cancer Mage (So many ways to abuse this, and yet so useless…)
1 for Ride-By Attack (Yeah…)
1 for Alignment (Again, yeah…)
1 for Paladin Code (Timmy asked you to tell his mother that he was staying at your house when he's actually somewhere else? I can't, that would be lying… but I can't NOT, cause that would be willingly betraying a friend. Looks like I'm losing my paladin-hood)
1 for Vow of Poverty (WOO! Marginal benefits for the price of crippling deficiencies!)
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2012-07-10, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Because of what I heard about it, I propose the Ice Assassin. Yay!
Last edited by Vinyadan; 2012-07-10 at 09:23 AM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2012-07-10, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Actually, I want to add two votes to Void Disciple.
Spoiler1) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 90% of the monsters out there, and 95% of PCs. Just switch their Int and Str, or Con and Cha, and laaaaaaugh.
2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go. If you can't find a way to horribly break this, you aren't trying hard enough.
3) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...
- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.
In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids. Can't be blocked, can't be detected, doesn't require familiarity, never runs out, and by RAW your mind is actually there, meaning you can start chucking out whatever mental action whatnots you happen to have available with zero fear of reprisal.
Basically, Sense Void is god mode. A Planar Sheppard//Beholder Mage would have reason to fear a Void Disciple.
Gah.
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2012-07-10, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
You've actually touched on part of why it's badly written, in a roundabout way. It seems designed to be the kind of 'warrior powers through magical bindings through sheer determination' thing we're all familiar from fiction, but the way it's written means that:
- you CAN'T use it to break free from Domination/Paralyzation/other classic things you'd expect to break with it, because you are prevented from initiating it, but
- you CAN use it on a huge array of things that don't fit into that theme at all, both because it's written as ending the effect rather than making you personally immune and because it's so vague about what conditions it can erase (I concentrate all my determination and - cause the Anti-Magic Field to collapse?)
So yeah, the reason people object isn't that it's overpowered on the things you'd expect it to be used on; they think it's badly written because it's useless for those things and overpowered against completely unexpected, unrelated things.
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2012-07-10, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-10, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
So we can't put two or three downvotes on one of the choices?
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2012-07-10, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Looks like I've got 7 additional votes to cast, so here they are:
- Manyfang Dagger (Serpent Kingdoms, page 152): 3 votes
- Alter Self spell line: 1
- Monk class: 2
- Epic Spellcasting: 1
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2012-07-10, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
One vote per thing for me, there's so much bad even in core that concentrating on one thing means missing other deserving targets.
I'm giving strong preference to core and SRD material as more likely to come up in actual games with people not deliberately looking for cheeze. [Edited to add, and I use up all my votes without leaving core or duplicating a vote. So stuff like IHS is off the hook.]
I'm voting NEGATIVE on Candle of Invocation, because the item is clear, and not a problem. The problem is the spell Gate. This is blatant. The candle's abusive uses all center on giving you access to the spell, candles don't do squat some other item that grants access to the spell wouldn't except make it cheaper and come on line sooner.
[Edited to add: If candle of invocation didn't exist we'd have builds using scrolls of gate and some way to activate them. Removing the item without fixing the spell simply doesn't help, and the problem with the item is ENTIRELY in that it casts the spell. The item is seen as problematical because it's the easiest way to access Gate and thus is used in all the TO designs, but it's the spell that causes the problems. Heck, once I get a spell-like wish from Panzuzu or whatever I can simply wish for a resetting trap of Gate and avoid all the wishing for candles.]
-1 Candle of Invocation
Dust of Sneezing & Choking
Drowning
Diplomacy
PaO duration/Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange
Monk
Gate
Grapple
Planar Ally/Binding Line of spells
Spell-like abilities ignoring all components
[Edited to add, again, things like Genies are a problem because they're EASY ways to get access to spell-like wish, but the problem is spell-like wish and many monsters have that.]Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2012-07-10 at 12:13 PM.
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2012-07-10, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Drop Monk from my list and add Magic Device Traps.
Monk is mearly moderately inneffective and poorly synergized. Magic Device Traps completely negate the idea that the guidelines on item creation are guidelines for the DM to ESTIMATE prices rather than rules for the PCs to abuse.
When: "Of course I can build a trap of Cure Minor Wounds activated by someone reaching into it on my spell-pouch. I don't want some undead messing with it." is one of the LESS abusive uses of a rule you know it's got problems.