Party Issues, Need Advice

[Gavinfoxx]

Next time they go in, they should find the cave empty, and see a note in Common addressed to each of them (by visual description), thanking them for donating their valuable gear and items so he can have the wealth he needs to relocate, and proving that his adventurer milking scheme was not only viable, but profitable and efficient, and that he is going to retire and they will never see him again.

That would make the players (other than the one who reads started this thread, and seems sane; no spoiling the whiny players!) SO PISSED.

[roguemetal]

So... the party plays d&d like it's a video game apparently...
I've had that share of problems when DMing myself.

Players don't recognize an enemy they won't be able to beat without guile?
There are a number of ways without assaulting the party head on. Give them an NPC that will show them how quickly a character of higher level than the party can be brutally murdered in a single round. See if they step up their game then. The way that you went about it Acanous, by setting up an encounter tailored to their faults, and not letting them adapt to a new style of play before they met this encounter, is an awkward means to force them to play the way you want them to.

I don't care if they're new players, or just generally incompetent, but learning takes time. The training gloves might have been part of the reason for their downfall. Puzzle-based gameplay might also not be appropriate for this group. Give them a more obvious solution if they can't figure it out. Most good in game puzzles have at least three means of being solved, and hints for each one. If someone misses something, something else comes along to point them in a different, but still valid direction. Each one tailored to a different play style. Something for the brutes, something for social characters, something for the mystery solvers.

Also, wanted to mention that the fact the Aboleth is aware of the players presence and their weaknesses should actually impact the CR rating of the encounter. So should the environment of the fight, which is in an illusory space. Even if part of the Aboleth's abilities, if the terrain change exists prior to the player's entry, it adds to the CR. If I place an azer in a room full of hay, have the azer ignite the area and then fight the players, it is no longer a CR2 encounter.

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

[Azoth]

Ok, Roguemetal...he didn't railroad or force a single thing. He gave his players many hints, and opportunities to better prepair for the fight...BOTH times. He also warned them not to fight it until ready. One of the players REQUESTED the Aboleth.

The fact that he didn't just slaughter them outright for their stupidity the second time they fought it shows for his capabilities and caring for the characters his at least marginally mentally defficient players made.

In this thread he has stated seval ways for his players to fair better or even trivialize the Aboleth's abilities and kill it. Which at least ONE of his players reads, so lay off the guy.

Personally, I have dealt with such players, and usually it ends with either learning or going through character concepts and resses like no one's business. If you can't keep up, don't step up. Challenging games are meant to be that...a challenge! If the only tactic you know is attack until it/you are dead then you deserve your death...and every one after it.

As you can tell...my kid gloves were burned to ash in the fires of the abyss long ago.

[Arbane]

That's frackin' genius.

I'm picturing the aboleth starting an "adventurer baiting" service: hang out near a town or small city, use illusions and dominate to start rumors of an evil orc/goblin tribe in the area, then sit back and wait for the lowbies to come bearing gifts.
Maybe he'll even expand his services to other monsters.

Aboleth: Hello there, Mr. Adult Black Dragon, what can I help you with today?
(SNIP)

Ab: Excellent, let me take down your information and I'll have the first group at your doorstep in 10 days or less, or your money back!

"In Soviet Underdark, fish baits YOU!"

Hilarious. I presume Steve's usual agents are Mysterious Old Men trying to sell treasure maps in taverns?

I think the take away lesson is: every game needs a monster the PCs can't beat, but doesn't kill them.

It suddenly occurs to me that this whole thing is turning into a Fish Story of the 'One That Got Away' variety. This amuses me mightily.

I ran my party through a gauntlet of CON damage/drain enemies at level 1.

Send them my way.

What in G'BroagFran's name did they do to deserve THAT?

[only1doug]

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

I was gonna jump all over you about this one, saying how the GM is supporting the OP not hijacking (please note that the player invited the GM to participate), then i re-read the OP and realised, this thread wasn't started to discuss the aboleth, it was about coping with his fellow players.

I guess my advice would be to talk to them out of game and discuss tactics and that sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

[Acanous]

Ever have one of those moments where you spent 15-20 minutes typing out a reply, and the the forum is too busy and eats it?

Anyhow, I'll have to multi-quote to reply to this.

So... the party plays d&d like it's a video game apparently...
I've had that share of problems when DMing myself.

Players don't recognize an enemy they won't be able to beat without guile?
There are a number of ways without assaulting the party head on.

With you so far.

Give them an NPC that will show them how quickly a character of higher level than the party can be brutally murdered in a single round. See if they step up their game then.

Do you mean by ghaving them fight something significantly higher level (Like a golem) that does not use any tact, and can be defeated very easilly by their standard tactics, or do you mean I should run some kind of NPC battle while they watch? I'm rather against the latter, and the former would be just babying the party again.

The way that you went about it Acanous, by setting up an encounter tailored to their faults, and not letting them adapt to a new style of play before they met this encounter, is an awkward means to force them to play the way you want them to.

I have been playing to their strengths quite often. Usually they get surprise on an enemy, the enemy does not expect the party at all much less right now, and the vast majority of their foes, they simply faceroll. The reason the Aboleth is such a problem for them is because it hits them in the faulty tactics.
I did not alter or tailor the Aboleth in any way. Even the area in which they fight it was taken from a modual (Omitted, so the players don't read it :p).

The Aboleth was not a planned encounter on my part. The entire dungeon the thing lives in, they found while exploring. It has nothing to do with the main quest, and is now a player-caused sidequest (Get back the Sword).
Thus, I had to whip it up on the fly.

I don't care if they're new players, or just generally incompetent, but learning takes time. The training gloves might have been part of the reason for their downfall. Puzzle-based gameplay might also not be appropriate for this group. Give them a more obvious solution if they can't figure it out. Most good in game puzzles have at least three means of being solved, and hints for each one. If someone misses something, something else comes along to point them in a different, but still valid direction. Each one tailored to a different play style. Something for the brutes, something for social characters, something for the mystery solvers.

Well, there are multiple ways of dealing with this Aboleth. The players could attempt social interaction with it (It even initiated). They refused. They could spend a little gold and face it head on, with it's abilities nullified (They again do not wish to do so). They could hire a mage in town to Scry on the sword, sneak in past the Aboleth, and retrieve it from the thing's stash. (They have not attempted this yet, despite two of the players having Hide modifiers above +30).
That's at least three ways to solve it. With different playstyles in mind. Alternate methods include Retraining to select blind-fight for the orc (Who could then track the Aboleth by scent. They have a potion of water breathing, and the aboleth itself excretes that save-or-breathe-water mucous), finding the infeed for the underground lake and poisoning the water, hiring a dwarven demolition team and draining the underground lake VIA the side of the mountain...

Also, wanted to mention that the fact the Aboleth is aware of the players presence and their weaknesses should actually impact the CR rating of the encounter. So should the environment of the fight, which is in an illusory space. Even if part of the Aboleth's abilities, if the terrain change exists prior to the player's entry, it adds to the CR. If I place an azer in a room full of hay, have the azer ignite the area and then fight the players, it is no longer a CR2 encounter.

Well, the first time they encountered it, the thing got one free round thanks to the terrified, screaming orc. That caused the illusory space. That says to me that the CR really shouldn't be adjusted, as though the Party had tripped an alarm. The SECOND time, the party had information on the thing they were fighting (It dominates people, uses illusions, is in a room with an aquatic environment) and really could have taken advantage of it. They did not. The Aboleth did not change tactics, it did the exact same things. It didn't even buy any equiptment, it's still straight out of the book.

That said, how would adjusting the thing's CR help solve the problem? They can't beat it, and while I give XP for running from a combat once, I don't give it every time on the same monster. Especially not when they go looking for it.

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

Well, not really hijacking. He wanted me to come over and share my thoughts and experiences with the party. The personification of the party's problems is the Aboleth, and this is thusly what I discuss.
Now I just copy this before I hit submit...

Edit:

"In Soviet Underdark, fish baits YOU!"

Hilarious. I presume Steve's usual agents are Mysterious Old Men trying to sell treasure maps in taverns?

This is extremely amusing, as they just bought a treasure map from an old man in a tavern. Seriously.

[hoverfrog]

Have you thought about Steve the Aboleth sending some spies to keep track of the party or the city in general? Perhaps word might get back to the party that someone is asking around about them. If that happens and they catch the spy alive they may be able to remove the hold Steve has over him and get him to spill information about him. That might help and get them to prepare a bit more intelligently.

[Acanous]

That's a rather good idea. Perhaps if, in a couple weeks, the party hasn't returned to the Aboleth lair, Steve will get worried and check in on his investment.

[Karoht]

Oh, and why are you hijacking your player's thread?

Yeah, just going to back up Acanous and state that I did invite him to comment here.


In regards to "teaching" the players, I think much of the problem stems from the fact that they don't know that so many other options exist. We were discussing some potions of protection from evil. A great little tool for a wide variety of situations. 400 GP would cover the party easily, and just about trivialize the encounter. The issue is, I don't think they know all of it's effects, so it doesn't occur to them. Let alone the idea of using stealth and doing perhaps some observation or something. And the party is pretty unfamiliar with divination, so scrying is not a tool they understand well.


I should point out though, this is not a new play group. They've been playing 3.5 and pathfinder for a few years now. I think the thing that is crippling them is how much they have pidgeon-holed their own playstyles for so long. One player almost exclusively plays Fireball and Disintgrate specialized sorcerers, to give you an example. Acanous is trying to get them to break some of these poor habits, it seems like it is a struggle between the habits and a DM setting up encounters with *some* of these habits in mind.

[ThiagoMartell]

Am I the only that gets bored when people say someone is incompetent at a roleplaying game?

[Karoht]

Am I the only that gets bored when people say someone is incompetent at a roleplaying game?

Well, no one has actually out and out said it, but I'm stuck with these guys and so is acanous. Imagine how we feel for a moment? we don't want to insult our friends, but the stress it puts on us is, well, offensive to us as well.

If you find yourself bored reading it, imagine how bored you might be in our shoes.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, no one has actually out and out said it, but I'm stuck with these guys and so is acanous. Imagine how we feel for a moment? we don't want to insult our friends, but the stress it puts on us is, well, offensive to us as well.

If you find yourself bored reading it, imagine how bored you might be in our shoes.

You didn't say that, but someone did.
I think you guys are actually being pretty polite in your presentation and your complaints.

[Acanous]

Most of these guys have been playing PnP RPG's for a solid 10 years. D&D for at least 5 of those. Karoht has actually the second-least experience in the group, with the least being one player's girlfriend, who'se been playing for maybe a year now.

The biggest problem, I think, is that the core three players of the group are used to playing with large parties.

For the longest time, we used to play in a much bigger group (Around 15-16 people total) and split the groups into 6-7 man parties and 2 DM's. Players could swap party members at certain plot points, and it usually wasn't a big deal if you had 3-4 melee people and a bunch of quirky support classes.
There'd be lots of PC death, but they'd rarely take a rez. It's not like they got super-attatched to their characters, because they'd have to share the spotlight so much. Rolling a new dude was preferrable to taking a neg level anyhow.

Me, I played one character per campaign, and it was exceptionally unusual for me to go into the negatives, much less require a ressurrection.

The main reasons weren't super-intelligent play or more common sense, or even playing high-tier. (I usually played support.) it was usually just in proper resource management.
That's really what I'm trying to pass along to the group, that there's other ways to win an encounter than deal X damage to Y target.

I don't think they're stupid, just very set in their ways. Getting the guy who always plays a fighter to go wizard last game ended up with a very different playstyle for him.
Sadly, when he went cleric this campaign, he ended up just playing a fighter again, and suiciding against the aboleth -_-.

[The Boz]

The Aboleth is now named Steve.

Please, please, PLEASE name the next one Bob.

[Chained Birds]

In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!

May I Sig this?

Anyways, I am enjoying the story of Steve the Aboleth VS the "Kill Everything" Adventurers. I don't really have anything new to add to this thread as it appears that encouraging the players to do new things is seen almost like an insult for them... Odd. I guess these players just sound odd to me, as I am the sort of player to take everything that would appear useless at first, and turn it into something deadly.
And I adore single-use items, especially if they are non-magical. Having an item for every situation makes me feel safe, dependable, and all around useful to the party even if my battle skills might be poor for that particular character.

Perhaps you can introduce a Survivalist Character who specializes in having an item for everything. Just stat up a lvl 4 rogue or something with a Haversack and as many items you can think of. Heck, have one of the items by some Aboleth Mucus and he/she can offhandedly say he/she got it from those mines a few months ago before he stealthily got the heck out of there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do regret having called your players stupid, and for that I apologize. Their actions however are rather less-than-intelligent in this particular scenario. I still think stupid actions should have dire consequences.

Btw, where does one get kid-gloves? I've never owned a pair.

[nedz]

Please, please, PLEASE name the next one Bob.

No, no, no: Bob is a Pit Fiend; everyone knows that.

Seriously now:

From what I've read you seem to be giving the party a lot of easy encounters (Hordes of old school Orcs) followed by one very difficult one. Now it may just be that you have not mentioned most of the encounters in the campaign (understandable), but if this is the case then how are they meant to learn ?

I think that you might need to take smaller steps in their education ?

Have Steve hire dominate some lesser challenge, but tougher than an Orc horde, to keep the pesky kids away from his grand scheme of world domination. He does have such a scheme, does he not ? Well he should since the party seem to have recruited him as their first BBEG. There's nothing like having the players generate the plot: you get their buy-in for free.

[only1doug]

I do regret having called your players stupid, and for that I apologize. Their actions however are rather less-than-intelligent in this particular scenario. I still think stupid actions should have dire consequences.

Btw, where does one get kid-gloves? I've never owned a pair.

First take a Baby Goat, then make Gloves out of it's hide...

(I Kid you not)

[Kelb_Panthera]

First take a Baby Goat, then make Gloves out of it's hide...

(I Kid you not)

That's terrible.......... I love it.

Except the hidden pun, that's a groaner.

[Killer Angel]

No, no, no: Bob is a Pit Fiend; everyone knows that.

All I know is that the Pit Fiend is not Walter.

[only1doug]

All I know is that the Pit Fiend is not Walter.

It's Grinnorarcen

[Acanous]

OK!
Update to the story of Steve the Aboleth and the Party that Could.

The party, as said before, has decided to go enslave some lycanthropes and sell them for money, so they could buy equiptment and go confront Steve again.

They split up, two going out with their newfound map to hunt weres, one going to ransack the orphanage for children rations, and another going around the tippyverse town and making careful use of disable device to take magical traps.

There was a good deal of roleplay here, which ended in some epicly funny moments, but you really had to be there, otherwise a goblin putting back a little girl's corpse just isn't funny.

Anyhow, the two adventurers managed to track down and diplomance three wereboars into slavery. Then the Orc had his way with them.
I want to make a joke about a certain bank here, but don't know if it would break forum rules >.>

They gathered the rather large (10k) reward for the lycans, then grouped back up and went exploring. The Rogue tracked down a pack of Triceratops, and engaged them for food. The monk ended up dead before the rest of the party figured out they should really fight these things from the air, using ranged weapons. (Again, over half the party flies.)

Returning to Underbarrow, the monk got rezzed and the party took two weeks of preperations for raiding the Aboleth lair.

I gave them a free wish-based teleport to said lair, at their leisure. They had as many buff rounds as they wanted, followed by a surprise round.

So anyhow, 10 rounds have gone by, one party member (the Barbarian) has actually seen the Aboleth. He's about 160 feet away from the rest of the party, underwater, and has succumbed to Aboleth Mucous and also the contact poison that jellifies his flesh.

He got a shot off on the Aboleth, though, and did 56 damage.

The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.

Illusion spells up are Veil (Invisible Stalker), Hallucinatory Terrain (To make the surface of the water look like...the surface of the water [no tracking by disturbances or ripples] in an area) Project Image (The Barbarian and the Eidolon have saved against this and know it's illusory) Perminant Image (A wall, hiding Steve's cache.)

Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

The use of Protection from Evil potions, Water Breathing, and Water Walk (In the case of the Rogue) have helped the party immensely. They aren't getting kicked around. The monk, the goblin, and the rogue are still mostly useless, with the Eidolon (which now has a swim speed) and the Barbarian doing most of the actual combat.

This fight has gone on for 10 rounds. We had to pack up due to time. Next week, we'll continue where we left off.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

[nedz]

OK!
Update to the story of Steve the Aboleth and the Party that Could.

The party, as said before, has decided to go enslave some lycanthropes and sell them for money, so they could buy equiptment and go confront Steve again.

They split up, two going out with their newfound map to hunt weres, one going to ransack the orphanage for children rations, and another going around the tippyverse town and making careful use of disable device to take magical traps.

There was a good deal of roleplay here, which ended in some epicly funny moments, but you really had to be there, otherwise a goblin putting back a little girl's corpse just isn't funny.

Anyhow, the two adventurers managed to track down and diplomance three wereboars into slavery. Then the Orc had his way with them.
I want to make a joke about a certain bank here, but don't know if it would break forum rules >.>

They gathered the rather large (10k) reward for the lycans, then grouped back up and went exploring. The Rogue tracked down a pack of Triceratops, and engaged them for food. The monk ended up dead before the rest of the party figured out they should really fight these things from the air, using ranged weapons. (Again, over half the party flies.)

Returning to Underbarrow, the monk got rezzed and the party took two weeks of preperations for raiding the Aboleth lair.

I gave them a free wish-based teleport to said lair, at their leisure. They had as many buff rounds as they wanted, followed by a surprise round.

So anyhow, 10 rounds have gone by, one party member (the Barbarian) has actually seen the Aboleth. He's about 160 feet away from the rest of the party, underwater, and has succumbed to Aboleth Mucous and also the contact poison that jellifies his flesh.

He got a shot off on the Aboleth, though, and did 56 damage.

The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.

Illusion spells up are Veil (Invisible Stalker), Hallucinatory Terrain (To make the surface of the water look like...the surface of the water [no tracking by disturbances or ripples] in an area) Project Image (The Barbarian and the Eidolon have saved against this and know it's illusory) Perminant Image (A wall, hiding Steve's cache.)

Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

The use of Protection from Evil potions, Water Breathing, and Water Walk (In the case of the Rogue) have helped the party immensely. They aren't getting kicked around. The monk, the goblin, and the rogue are still mostly useless, with the Eidolon (which now has a swim speed) and the Barbarian doing most of the actual combat.

This fight has gone on for 10 rounds. We had to pack up due to time. Next week, we'll continue where we left off.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

Sending in some mooks to distract the rest of the party would be good for Steve, but bad for the barbarian, unless he gets lucky.
I'd take the time to read up on that Frenzy BTW.

[only1doug]

Meanwhile the Orc, 100 feet underwater and on the other side of a submerged ridge, is ACTUALLY fighting the thing, is burning rage and has frenzied.

Now, I thought that Frenzy meant he had to attack the closest thing, regardless of if it was allied, but aparently he says the blood orc frenzy just limits him to one target.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, are his actions not forced to "Close with target, attack if able"? If so, Steve's going to kite that orc to death with his 60 foot swim speed and 15 foot reach. (Until, at least, the rest of the party shows up to help, but even then, there's a lot of water they could be in, and two possible exits [inflow and outflow])

Right now, they're both right above the vortex outflow that leads into the swamp. Steve JUST took that 56, so he's full retreating this round, and will determine the Orc's swim speed, then start kiting next round.


Steve has ordered some orcs into the swamp outside, to ambush/slow down anyone who follows him out, should he need to escape that way.

Sounds bad for the Orc....

Whats his current plan? ranged attacks while Frenzied and Raging? Not something that really makes sense with those class features IMO but I guess you'll get some more feedback on that soon.

The rest of the party is searching for Steve's hidden cache, where presumably their sword is stashed. They're all seperated, can't communicate well, and nobody knows exactly where the barbarian went.
The monk thinks she's being targetted by Steve, and has communicated such. So the party is gathering on her.

I'm wondering if I should send in mooks for the Rogue, Summoner and Monk to deal with, as they seem kind of bored splashing around in the shallow end with cruddy swim checks.
On one hand, it would entertain them and make them feel useful. On the other, if they don't help that barbarian, he's going to die. But they haven't helped him in the last 4 rounds, so 0.o

I wouldn't recommend the mooks, leave the rest of the party to waste their time or decide to help, distracting them will definately kill the Orc, which seems a bit unfair.

Once the entire party are fighting Steve, then add mooks, so the party has to decide whether to whittle down mooks to reduce the incoming damage or kill the boss.
(why would Steve call in minions when he doesn't need them yet, he can handle one PC easily).
If the party all waste their time while Steve is kills their Orc friend then thats their choice, don't allow the blame to be shifted to you by adding the distraction.

If you want to clue the party in to assisting the Orc then consider the statement below.
While the Hallucinatory Terrain works for visual cues the Swift Movements of Steve through the water still produce a noticable effect (kind of like swishing your hand through bathwater produces eddy currents) that the Party might get some kind of sense check to notice (If they had tremorsense it would be screaming at them) and figure out the direction. This would only be applicable while Steve is moving rapidly (actively fighting the Barbarian), at normal speed he wouldn't leave a wake.

[Acanous]

Steve is 140 feet away from the next-nearest party member. There's also a ridge in the way. I don't think that's going to happen.

I won't introduce more mooks. The Barbarian actually doesn't *Have* any ranged weapons. I don't think he can even throw his sword, underwater.
Steve is going to full retreat, which'll buy the barb a round. If he follows, though, it's going to be bad for him.


The good news, of course, is that if he dies, the party *Will* rez him. Steve will just take all his gear, and go retire in the Keyes.

Edit: I forgot to mention. The party knows his name is Steve, now. He had a dominated merchant go check up on them after it'd been a couple weeks and he hadn't seen them.

They were very upset when they learned that the thing in the pool wanted them to come back and give it more gold.

[Deepbluediver]

They were very upset when they learned that the thing in the pool wanted them to come back and give it more gold.

If your monster has managed to enrage the characters to the point where they are no longer thinking clearly OoC, and are still coming back for more despite repeated thrashings, I think you've just about won the game as the DM.

[Acanous]

I'm fairly sure, at this point, that the party will claim victory over Steve, as far as resources spent/gained go. It's really just a matter of how phyrric the victory is.
If they get that sword back, but lose the orc, they're down a member, but Steve loses out on about 64k GP.
If they go to help the orc, Steve is going to use that Programmed image as a distraction, while he makes a break for first the inflow (Where he'll cast another major image to help him stay unnoticeable) and then his hidden cache. Where he'll grab his loot and make a break for the outflow. Party will get XP for winning, but Steve keeps the sword, and is still alive.

If they follow him, well that's an ambush.

[Karoht]

I really do think that Steve needs to escape, find an Aboleth buddy to collaborate with, and commence the 'adventurer looting business' idea. And return as a later set of villains. With a certain Air Troll or two or three. Just saying.

[sdream]

Love the fishing fish.

Love the party buy in on personal affront at being fished.

[Karoht]

Good news everyone! I invented a device...
yeah, you know the rest.

Bad news everyone. I won't be able to return to this campaign at the rate things are going at work.

Good news everyone. I can keep following the adventures of Steve and friends, and even provide suggestions and such.

So, ambushes. Orcs with Crossbows ducking into and out of shallow water for cover? Along with Illusions of Orcs with Crossbows? Possibly an illusory aboleth for them to kill while Steve makes his getaway?