The Hobbit Film... trilogy.

[grimbold]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that it's a vast departure from the framerates of other movies, while coming closer to the framerate of what soap operas operate at. So anything at that speed gets associated with the general low-quality of soap operas, which are low-quality for completely different reasons that involve not having enough time to build great sets or set up cinematic-level lighting.

this

of course... now that we have the technology... movies are going to HAVE to get better

[Parra]

My, probably limited, understanding of the FPS issue was to do with how the Human eye worked.
At the 24FPS cinema is normally shot in the human eye fills in the 'blanks' giving a fluid motion with a lot of flaws being smoothed out simply by how our eye works.
But at the 48FPS the Hobbit is being shot in some of those 'blanks' are now filled in for us, which can potentially draw attention to those flaws that our eyes previously glossed over. Essentially sharpening any imperfections in the set.

At least that's how it was explained to me

[MLai]

If 48 FPS is so new-fangled/ high-quality/ experimental... why the heck are low-budget soap operas using it, but yet Hollywood movies are using old tech running at half the speed???

I do not follow soap opera culture at all, so pardon me if it's well-known knowledge or something.

[Xondoure]

If 48 FPS is so new-fangled/ high-quality/ experimental... why the heck are low-budget soap operas using it, but yet Hollywood movies are using old tech running at half the speed???

I do not follow soap opera culture at all, so pardon me if it's well-known knowledge or something.

Because films have been stuck in 24 fps forever while the home video camera shot straight past. This leaves us with the unfortunate implication that good framerates look like home videos.

[Karoht]

Because films have been stuck in 24 fps forever while the home video camera shot straight past. This leaves us with the unfortunate implication that good framerates look like home videos.

Yeah, I noticed that with some films in HD on a proper HDTV. It's almost surreal, but indeed, makes anything fake look really fake.

[Gnoman]

Except that these are no "ordinary" orcs. They are Uruk-Hai. Their shields are broad, their armor thick. Moreover, they are specially "bred" to be more resistant to sunlight by Saruman and Sauron. The movie takes some creative license in showing what Saruman is doing. The book doesn't exactly describe what Saruman does to create them, yet that doesn't make the pod theory nonsense. After all, Saruman is a wizard. So how does a wizard make stronger orcs?

That doesn't change the fact that that method was invented for the movies, as the method by which they were bred is never mentioned. I didn't say it was a horrible depiction, I actually kind of liked it as a concept. I referred to it as nonsense because I'm sick of so many people insisting that all orcs are born that way, when none are in the source material.

[Zea mays]

As I recall, in the book, Gandalf mentions in a random aside that he suspects Saruman has been breeding Orc-human hybrids.
And then they moved on to other topics.

Leaving the teenage me to ponder the utterly horrific implications.


Now I prefer to think the Uruk-Hai came into being exactly the way the movie depicted it.

[snoopy13a]

As I recall, in the book, Gandalf mentions in a random aside that he suspects Saruman has been breeding Orc-human hybrids.
And then they moved on to other topics.

Leaving the teenage me to ponder the utterly horrific implications.


Now I prefer to think the Uruk-Hai came into being exactly the way the movie depicted it.

Like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html

[dehro]

stuff

I disagree with almost everything you say in this post except for the +1 on the guitaraxe..
but it mostly comes down to personal preference, so I'll keep it at that without going on a point by point rebuttal/reply.

[hamishspence]

That doesn't change the fact that that method was invented for the movies, as the method by which they were bred is never mentioned. I didn't say it was a horrible depiction, I actually kind of liked it as a concept. I referred to it as nonsense because I'm sick of so many people insisting that all orcs are born that way, when none are in the source material.

"bred from the heats and slimes of the earth" was used very early on in Tolkien's writings, but he moved on from it fairly quickly.

There were a lot of origins he speculated on- uplifted animals, men, elves, incarnate Maiar, and so forth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

[Gnoman]

Anything outside the Silmarillion (which was mostly completed before Christopher Tolkein got ahold of it) or LOTR/Hobbit proper, must be considered as canonical as Trotter or Bungo, son of Bilbo. The fragments of writing that C used in the History of Middle Earth series were just that. Fragments. According to the prefaces, it was often impossible to tell how old a given fragment was, let alone how seriously his father considered the idea.

Fangorn describes trolls as "only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves." This suggests the "corrupted elves" version, even without resorting to the Silmarillion. Once you go to that book, it's explicit.

[pendell]

I had always assumed Saruman had perfected some Middle-earth version of the cloning facilities seen in Star Wars. Clones, after all, are made from humans that can reproduce naturally but that doesn't stop an evil supervillain in need of an army from cloning mass numbers of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Karoht]

The theme of Saruman was that he had shifted his focus from natural things, and towards industrial things.
While it is entirely possible that he represents the industrial method of producing soldiers (highly regimented lives), it is possible that he represents the industrial methods applied to the production of soldiers. Not stated directly of course, but implied. Think factory as opposed to natural development. So cloning 'pods' or anything similar does sound like it fits the character's theme.

(I may be applying more of Peter Jacksons' interpretation of Saruman rather than Tolkien's, it has been quite a few years since I read any of the books)

[Traab]

The theme of Saruman was that he had shifted his focus from natural things, and towards industrial things.
While it is entirely possible that he represents the industrial method of producing soldiers (highly regimented lives), it is possible that he represents the industrial methods applied to the production of soldiers. Not stated directly of course, but implied. Think factory as opposed to natural development. So cloning 'pods' or anything similar does sound like it fits the character's theme.

(I may be applying more of Peter Jacksons' interpretation of Saruman rather than Tolkien's, it has been quite a few years since I read any of the books)

Im pretty sure in the books treebeard talks about how saruman has changed, where he once walked the entwood and appreciated nature, his mind is now focused on metal and machinery, or something to that effect. The status of orthanc and its surrounding land is more proof, it wasnt just in the movies that saruman basically had his troops tear down everything and even start chopping up fangorn forest. He went full industrial effort and destroyed all nature around him. He clear cut the trees, dammed the river, His underground caverns vented steam and fumes at all hours of the day and night, likely poisoning the earth and sky around him.

[Karoht]

Im pretty sure in the books treebeard talks about how saruman has changed, where he once walked the entwood and appreciated nature, his mind is now focused on metal and machinery, or something to that effect.

Ah. I was uncertain if that was movie treebeard or book treebeard at that point.

The status of orthanc and its surrounding land is more proof, it wasnt just in the movies that saruman basically had his troops tear down everything and even start chopping up fangorn forest. He went full industrial effort and destroyed all nature around him. He clear cut the trees, dammed the river, His underground caverns vented steam and fumes at all hours of the day and night, likely poisoning the earth and sky around him.

Exactly.
So my figuring based on that theme is that maybe Tolkien left the orc production vague on purpose. Maybe he wanted us to imagine some industrial Sci-fi horror (vat grown soldiers) on our own. Leaving it to our imagination is sometimes the book equivilant to "show, don't tell" as it were.

[Traab]

Yeah I am honestly unsure if all the destruction saruman caused to his area was solely to setup his war machine. Meaning he needed to make enough armor and weaponry for his vast army, and making 10k swords, 10k breastplates, 10k etc etc etc, takes either a lot of time, or a lot of people working together. He had a lot of people working for him, but had to bring in an insane amount of raw materials and create a lot of space for them to work in. So he strip mined the surrounding area for every resource and then spread out into fangorn when that wasnt enough. Which is what led to his downfall since it was cutting down fangorn forest trees that pissed off the ents so much.

I dont know if his uruk hai were suggested to be created by some pod person process or just some insane cross breeding experiment that involved using thousands of slaves and such.

[pendell]

To my mind Saruman in the movie is a thoroughly modern villain. He uses genetic engineering to create the 'perfect' soldier. He mass-produces both the soldiers themselves through cloning and their equipment through industry. His troops are trained in regiments and are equipped with plate armor as well as Falchions -- weapons that are very simple, very intuitive, but very powerful in the hnads of the Uruk-hai. They carry crossbows and they carry black powder, technological wonder weapons.

Saruman, in other words, represents a particular approach to the power of the Ring. Someone so consumed with monsters that they have become the monster themselves. It's precisely this attitude Gandalf warns against when he cautions that one who took the ring to use as a weapon would become so much like the Dark Lord it would make no difference to the peoples of the world.

Saruman didn't need a ring to become corrupt. Instead, he chose the path of wisdom over faith. He selected only those tactics, strategies, and purposes most likely to gain a martial victory over the Enemy, which meant he adopted pretty much all the Enemy's methods. Rather than place his hope in hobbit friendship and a fool's hope, he carefully calculated the probabilities and made what we might call a scientific strategy. It was overthrown because of things he had completely left out of his mechanistic, industrial mindset.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[mangosta71]

Aside from needing room and iron ore, making enough steel to outfit that army would require massive amounts of charcoal, which in turn requires even more massive amounts of hardwood. So there are plenty of good reasons he needed to bulldoze Fangorn.

[grimbold]

To my mind Saruman in the movie is a thoroughly modern villain. He uses genetic engineering to create the 'perfect' soldier. He mass-produces both the soldiers themselves through cloning and their equipment through industry. His troops are trained in regiments and are equipped with plate armor as well as Falchions -- weapons that are very simple, very intuitive, but very powerful in the hnads of the Uruk-hai. They carry crossbows and they carry black powder, technological wonder weapons.

Saruman, in other words, represents a particular approach to the power of the Ring. Someone so consumed with monsters that they have become the monster themselves. It's precisely this attitude Gandalf warns against when he cautions that one who took the ring to use as a weapon would become so much like the Dark Lord it would make no difference to the peoples of the world.

Saruman didn't need a ring to become corrupt. Instead, he chose the path of wisdom over faith. He selected only those tactics, strategies, and purposes most likely to gain a martial victory over the Enemy, which meant he adopted pretty much all the Enemy's methods. Rather than place his hope in hobbit friendship and a fool's hope, he carefully calculated the probabilities and made what we might call a scientific strategy. It was overthrown because of things he had completely left out of his mechanistic, industrial mindset.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

this is one of the reasons that LOTr always appealed to me! it still relevant!

[Traab]

Aside from needing room and iron ore, making enough steel to outfit that army would require massive amounts of charcoal, which in turn requires even more massive amounts of hardwood. So there are plenty of good reasons he needed to bulldoze Fangorn.

There is never a good enough reason to chop down trees that may randomly decide to step on you if you try.

[hamishspence]

Fangorn describes trolls as "only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves." This suggests the "corrupted elves" version, even without resorting to the Silmarillion. Once you go to that book, it's explicit.

With the proviso that "This is held by the Wise" - it's an in-universe view, not "direct author statement".

Frodo says "I don't think it (The Shadow) created the orcs- only ruined and twisted them"- first allusion to the idea that the orcs weren't "made in mockery of the elves" but are actually "ruined and twisted" from what they originally were.

Which the Silmarillion continues.

[MLai]

When Frodo said that, I think the implication is that Tolkien doesn't want readers to think that his Satan-equivalent is capable of creating anything, even twisted abominations. The creation of life must be the providence of his Abrahmic-God-equivalent.

But I never had the feeling that he meant every orc was born an elf; there wouldn't be enough elves in ME to make that many orcs. They must have reproduced sexually.

But I don't think female orcs exist. I personally think orcs are all male, and propagate their peculiar species via impregnating other humanoid females. Goblins too. Trolls... even I don't want to think about...

[dehro]

When Frodo said that, I think the implication is that Tolkien doesn't want readers to think that his Satan-equivalent is capable of creating anything, even twisted abominations. The creation of life must be the providence of his Abrahmic-God-equivalent.

But I never had the feeling that he meant every orc was born an elf; there wouldn't be enough elves in ME to make that many orcs. They must have reproduced sexually.

But I don't think female orcs exist. I personally think orcs are all male, and propagate their peculiar species via impregnating other humanoid females. Goblins too. Trolls... even I don't want to think about...

I'm thinking that we're underestimating the passing of time
my guess is that orcs and such have been around for a couple of centuries..which does mean that at the very least the "current" (to LOTR) generations are orcs, offspring of other orcs.

[pendell]

When Frodo said that, I think the implication is that Tolkien doesn't want readers to think that his Satan-equivalent is capable of creating anything, even twisted abominations. The creation of life must be the providence of his Abrahmic-God-equivalent.

But I never had the feeling that he meant every orc was born an elf; there wouldn't be enough elves in ME to make that many orcs. They must have reproduced sexually.

I don't think so either. I think orcs bear the same relationship to elves that Pit Bulls due to Golden Retrievers -- they are both the same species, but through careful breeding for selected traits one is a dedicated killer attack machine (although it can, with effort, be trained NOT to rip your throat out all in one go) while the other is a somewhat floppy creature which is capable of hunting and killing but is more than that.

Tolkien predates genetic enhancement and genetic engineering, but farmers have been doing that sort of thing for millenia before the letters DNA meant anything. Race horses are bred for speed while workhorses are bred for power, dogs can be bred for hunting or as housepets or as guide animals, pigs are bred to have no tusks but to yield more meat, and so on.

I think it's the same thing. Perhaps orcs and elves once had a common ancestor, as all the different breeds of horse descend from Equus Ferus . Perhaps elves ARE the common ancestor. But just because they are so closely genetically related that they can produce fertile offspring does not mean there are no differences in physical ability and temperament between them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[WalkingTarget]

I'm thinking that we're underestimating the passing of time
my guess is that orcs and such have been around for a couple of centuries..which does mean that at the very least the "current" (to LOTR) generations are orcs, offspring of other orcs.

LotR happens ~7000 years after the Sun first rose and Orcs had been around for quite some time before that (~400 "Valian Years", but it's hard to gauge how long that is exactly since we don't have a frame of reference before the Years of the Sun began - generally, Tolkien's references to them indicate that Valian Years are longer than Solar Years; anywhere from about 10 times to 144 times as long).

[Chromascope3D]

I don't remember exactly where (Might've been LOTRO, now that I think about it), but I remember reading that orcs (read: goblins) were elves that had been captured by the Enemy long, long ago and tortured until they'd lost their purity, to fill the ranks of the Enemy's army. All orcs of today are descendants of these original orcs. Even if it's not canon, it is supported by (as was stated earlier) Fangorn/Treebeard explaining that trolls were created by the Enemy to challenge the strength of Ents.

[hamishspence]

I like the notion that most of the origin stories are true in part- there are Maiar orc captains (or at least, descendants of Maiar/orc breeding) among them- and the rank-and-file are part-elf, part-human (with the Uruk-hai having a higher proportion of human blood than most)- and so forth.

Not sure about trolls- those could be the descendants of corrupted Ents? Or something along those lines.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Worth noting that I do believe the Enemy in question is not Sauron, but Sauron's boss Morgoth who was Melkor, back in the Silmarillion: Sauron was just Morgoth's lieutenant back then. Fairly certain that the orcs and such descend from one of Morgoth's creations, rather than Sauron's....

[hamishspence]

Yup. I think there might have been notes that suggested that Sauron played a big part in the project, on Morgoth's orders, though.

The idea that Morgoth could create nothing that had life of its own (or even the semblance of life) and could only "ruin and twist" is voiced by Frodo in LoTR and repeated (with the proviso "so say the wise") in The Silmarillion.

[mangosta71]

Sounds like the Dothraki refrain "It is known." Which generally means that it has no basis in reality.