Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Feytalist]

So I read Grave Peril and Summer Knight to see what sort of foreshadowing went on there, and then I accidentally kept on reading and now I'm finished with the whole series again.

Wow these books are addictive.

[Socratov]

So I read Grave Peril and Summer Knight to see what sort of foreshadowing went on there, and then I accidentally kept on reading and now I'm finished with the whole series again.

Wow these books are addictive.

yes, yes they are. We are junkies, Jim is our dealer and the gateway packagers he left on his site are definately there to prevent us from kicking the habit. but as far as addictions go this is not a bad one (reading books is generally considered a good thing to do right?)

[Drolyt]

(reading books is generally considered a good thing to do right?)

While, the more you read the better your reading comprehension, and reading a lot also helps you write better. So yeah, the Dresden Files is more of an investment than anything.

[Socratov]

HOLY PROCESSED FECAL MATTER! THIS WAS SO AWE-

*Brain.sys has stopped working and needs to close, we are sorry for the inconvenience. if the problem persists call your system administrator*

*rebooting brain.sys*

no, seriously, this is the most awesome DF I've read and it will be hard to top this one (though I am sure it will happen) anyway, spoilers because some people might have gotten it for christmas and not read it yet.

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First, finally some answers. It was damn time we got those. I loved the appearance of Rashid. I am a fan of his and I think we will see mee a lot more of him later. I only question if he is 'just' a council wizard or another rimmmotal (fey perhaps, some sort of forgotten god?->reference to one of the names for Allah according to google). Anyway I'm guessing Rashid will die sometime and harry won't be just the warden of Demonreach, but the gatekeeper as well. It would mesh well with the wintermantle.

then Mother winter, how I loved her. "[the cleaver] was a test?" "yes, that, or a nice meal..." great conversation right there. Finally and end to Maeve. I hated that bitch with a passion you cannot fathom. i forsee a future of more housecalls to the dames in question, and ofcourse the fact that harry learns the other name of mother winter (you're right, that norn name wasn't exactly hers but since the 3 are now 2 it is partially).

On Bob, Lash or other means of gathering information. It is true that Bob cannot stay with harry, he really is too dangerous for that (though Harry building him another home from home as promised might generate a loophole, a way for bob to make housecalls as it were ). lash is a possibility, she might even be the parasite that is currently in harry's head, or the parasite is a different one altogether and might, if spoken to, also serve as an encyclopedia. that or frequent discussions with Ivy .

For the rest I loved the frequent jibes and jests between harry and the gang and to be honest I am very impressed with Molly. The kid's got game...

[Soras Teva Gee]

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I think the logic is that the explosion would kill them all in the process, therefore destroying them all in one fell swoop on Halloween Night, all the monsters in there, all dead.

problem is, this results in a huge part of the lands around it getting destroyed to, which is why Harry had to come in..

Oooh Oooh I figure this one out!

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They're a weapon against the Outsiders!

Consider first that everything in there by definition has to be a part of "reality" if you will. Ergo not on the Outsider team. Add to this that anything in there had to be beatable separately in the first place. When you consider further that Merlin built Demonreach across time and more, it makes you wonder why 'ol Scragglybeard didn't just off them on Halloween. Couldn't have been that much more effort after doing thirty impossible things and making an island so far back its a geologically significant time lapse.

Why?

Well wasn't it mention Harry could let the prisoners out? And who has a history of rounding up force at the last minute to save the day. Like the Wild Hunt in this book say. So I forsee an epic host of ancient evil things let loose on temporary parole, since if they save reality they all get to go on existing and hope for the prison to be brought down or what not.

On a related note, does anyone think Mab and Odin meet occasionally to share stories of their devious plots over a game of not-chess (since they're way to smart for it) and something to drink before having some continent shaking sex? Because I totally see our dueling Big Goods doing that.

[Socratov]

Oooh Oooh I figure this one out!

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They're a weapon against the Outsiders!

Consider first that everything in there by definition has to be a part of "reality" if you will. Ergo not on the Outsider team. Add to this that anything in there had to be beatable separately in the first place. When you consider further that Merlin built Demonreach across time and more, it makes you wonder why 'ol Scragglybeard didn't just off them on Halloween. Couldn't have been that much more effort after doing thirty impossible things and making an island so far back its a geologically significant time lapse.

Why?

Well wasn't it mention Harry could let the prisoners out? And who has a history of rounding up force at the last minute to save the day. Like the Wild Hunt in this book say. So I forsee an epic host of ancient evil things let loose on temporary parole, since if they save reality they all get to go on existing and hope for the prison to be brought down or what not.

On a related note, does anyone think Mab and Odin meet occasionally to share stories of their devious plots over a game of not-chess (since they're way to smart for it) and something to drink before having some continent shaking sex? Because I totally see our dueling Big Goods doing that.

what do you mean they wouldn't play chess? I mean we all need something easy to freshen up our mind from time to time...

[Soras Teva Gee]

what do you mean they wouldn't play chess? I mean we all need something easy to freshen up our mind from time to time...

I suppose, but only if the real game is who can snark best about how silly the mortals are for thinking chess=smart and all.

I infer you agree with the rest though.

[Socratov]

I suppose, but only if the real game is who can snark best about how silly the mortals are for thinking chess=smart and all.

I infer you agree with the rest though.

in a way...

spoilered for possible spoilers

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well, one could argue that Harry started out as a pawn, reached the end of the board and got promoted to a higher ranking piece when he received the mantle of winter knight. In his own way Harry has attracted the attention of all manner of supernatural entities: Uriel representing the divine side, Mab representing the fey, the denarians, the outsiders, and even Odin. One could obviously argue that Harry is one of the more interesting pieces on the board of the supernatural chessboard (I'd peg him as a knight seeing how his trademark is jumping around in a weird manner and that no one sees him coming the way he does).

And that is without considering that he is actually recruited by Uriel to do Heaven's bidding in mysterious ways. the fact that he has been given a panic button of immense proportions is quite the development even if he hasn't really figured that out yet... (though he was close when he almost drew power form the Well). So, yes I do agree, though not quite since his panic button is only 1 step away from a hypothetical nuclear winter... Along with the swords that is another tool he has full access to without the intention to use it. I mean, letting things loose is one thing, getting them back in is quite another...

[Mauve Shirt]

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He's got Heaven's power, he's going to get Satan's power (for realsies this time), he's got Fey power, he's got wizard power of course, he's got the power of all sorts of semidivine, divine, undefined beings (that we know are not outsiders, so Cthulu is probably not there, but he threatens to put Mab in there so possibly ex-queens of faerie) I should say he's a damn important piece. His outsiderbane-ness has always pegged him as an important piece.
How unpredictable will he have to be in order to win against the plots of Heaven, Hell, Faerie, Outside and the White Council while saving the world?

[Socratov]

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He's got Heaven's power, he's going to get Satan's power (for realsies this time), he's got Fey power, he's got wizard power of course, he's got the power of all sorts of semidivine, divine, undefined beings (that we know are not outsiders, so Cthulu is probably not there, but he threatens to put Mab in there so possibly ex-queens of faerie) I should say he's a damn important piece. His outsiderbane-ness has always pegged him as an important piece.
How unpredictable will he have to be in order to win against the plots of Heaven, Hell, Faerie, Outside and the White Council while saving the world?

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he'll only need to be himself I guess, that's weird enough.

[thorgrim29]

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I've had a month or so to think about it now, and I don't think everyone realizes how bad it is that Molly is the winter Lady. Molly, the borderline insane, ex mind magic warlock, who knows where the 3 Swords are, is now the winter lady. Oh and she's also in love with Dresden. What do we know about the winter lady mantle? It makes you into a depraved psychopath who likes playing mind games and sleeps with the winter knight. So both Molly and Harry are going to be fighting against their mantles changing them too much, and all along their feeling for eachother, that trust and friendship that (in my mind at least) was always going to evolve into romance, will be actively working against them. The next few books are going to be brutal for them.

Also, for everyone wondering why Lily acted like she did. The thing to remember about Lily is that she was super naive and not very smart before becoming the summer lady

[Socratov]

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I've had a month or so to think about it now, and I don't think everyone realizes how bad it is that Molly is the winter Lady. Molly, the borderline insane, ex mind magic warlock, who knows where the 3 Swords are, is now the winter lady. Oh and she's also in love with Dresden. What do we know about the winter lady mantle? It makes you into a depraved psychopath who likes playing mind games and sleeps with the winter knight. So both Molly and Harry are going to be fighting against their mantles changing them too much, and all along their feeling for eachother, that trust and friendship that (in my mind at least) was always going to evolve into romance, will be actively working against them. The next few books are going to be brutal for them.

Also, for everyone wondering why Lily acted like she did. The thing to remember about Lily is that she was super naive and not very smart before becoming the summer lady

the next books are going to contain so much shipping
shipshipshipshipshipshipship

[Alleran]

Finished it recently.

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Harry and Murphy on a Harley. Awesomesauce. That entire sequence was pure kickassery from where I was sitting. Spoiled only by the continuing UST between the two of them after the confrontation was over rather than Harry and Murphy actually getting it out of the way.

Also, Fix saying he saw Harry and Mab. Humiliating. Maeve in nothing but diamonds was... I'm not sure how to take that. I get that it was supposed to be titillation, but at the same time Maeve has always weirded me out a bit. I suppose my reaction was much like Harry's.

After a little while thinking it over, I have a few thoughts.

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Yeah, the whole "Winter gets to fight off Outsiders, while Summer is in charge of fighting off Winter" thing is stupid. It seems like it exists to make Winter (Harry's side) the more important one.

Personally, I think it could have worked well to have Summer and Winter be taking turns. It's already established that Summer and Winter take turns being dominant, switching at either the Equinox or the Solstice. I would have liked it better if they took turns fighting off outsiders/replenishing their forces.
Of course it's always possible that Summer is ALSO fighting off outsiders. Each side is intentionally kept in the dark about the other so as to avoid using it as leverage for any potentially balance-breaking trickery (for example, Winter pulls some troops off the frontlines, pretends they were killed, and has Summer pull troops from the heart of Farie to reinforce them, then uses the "Dead" troops to launch an attack).

That could actually make more sense. In Summer Night, the plan was to use the stone table to hand the power of the Summer Knight over to Winter, creating an imbalance. But if Aurora was infected by the Nemesis, she would be trying to help the outsiders.

Tipping the balance of power in favor of Winter would be bad for the world, but it would only help Winter fight off the Outsiders.

However, if there was another front, one that Winter didn't know about, but Summer did, (just as Summer was unaware of Winter's gates), then tipping the balance in favor of Winter could cripple summer's ability to protect it's gates.
If Aurora dosn't even know that Winter has gates to protect, then from her perspective it's the equivalent of stealing a tank from the army, and giving it to a street gang.

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One of the things I noticed in Harry's conversation with Mother Summer may touch on this, vis a vis the balance between Summer and Winter. It was said that Winter is in charge of protecting the Outer Gates, yes, but more specifically they are responsible for it in the current age of the world. To me it implies that like so many other things with Summer and Winter - especially how they change over with the turning of the seasons - just which Court is defending the Outer Gates will change. It's just a more long term one than a simple seasonal switch.

Similarly, I expect that there have been multiple Gatekeepers over the centuries, though that changeover is probably a bit different. It could be the Gatekeeper picking a successor and training them, or it could be the Faerie Queen in charge at the time choosing one. Or both. Rashid could probably explain a lot of it, if Harry asked the right questions.

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the assault on the Outsider's ships...did anyone else find it odd that a group of Fairies and fairy-enhanced mortals could do damage, with melee attacks to...steel hulled vessels? Note that they were explicitely described as such.

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I didn't. Harry asked Thomas about using water to get away from the Wild Hunt (since water grounds mystical energies, and is demonstrated to do just that in the book itself). Thomas flat-out told him that water wouldn't do jack-squat to the Wild Hunt, and that they'd run right across the top of it. And later, the Hunt changed itself into something suitable for hunting underwater. And they rode that motorcycle across the top of it.

It would appear that the Hunt has some sort of pass that allows them to throw at least some of the rules completely out of the window when it's happening.

[Socratov]

Finished it recently.

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Harry and Murphy on a Harley. Awesomesauce. That entire sequence was pure kickassery from where I was sitting. Spoiled only by the continuing UST between the two of them after the confrontation was over rather than Harry and Murphy actually getting it out of the way.

yeah it was, though not as awesome as harry riding Sue in Dead Beat

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Also, Fix saying he saw Harry and Mab. Humiliating. Maeve in nothing but diamonds was... I'm not sure how to take that. I get that it was supposed to be titillation, but at the same time Maeve has always weirded me out a bit. I suppose my reaction was much like Harry's.

depends on how strong your imagination is

After a little while thinking it over, I have a few thoughts.

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One of the things I noticed in Harry's conversation with Mother Summer may touch on this, vis a vis the balance between Summer and Winter. It was said that Winter is in charge of protecting the Outer Gates, yes, but more specifically they are responsible for it in the current age of the world. To me it implies that like so many other things with Summer and Winter - especially how they change over with the turning of the seasons - just which Court is defending the Outer Gates will change. It's just a more long term one than a simple seasonal switch.

Similarly, I expect that there have been multiple Gatekeepers over the centuries, though that changeover is probably a bit different. It could be the Gatekeeper picking a successor and training them, or it could be the Faerie Queen in charge at the time choosing one. Or both. Rashid could probably explain a lot of it, if Harry asked the right questions.

see above post of me, and 2nd part: ayup, he would.

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I didn't. Harry asked Thomas about using water to get away from the Wild Hunt (since water grounds mystical energies, and is demonstrated to do just that in the book itself). Thomas flat-out told him that water wouldn't do jack-squat to the Wild Hunt, and that they'd run right across the top of it. And later, the Hunt changed itself into something suitable for hunting underwater. And they rode that motorcycle across the top of it.

It would appear that the Hunt has some sort of pass that allows them to throw at least some of the rules completely out of the window when it's happening.

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Well, the hunt is all about predators. I think the hunt works just like faith based magic: it just does. I think it's connected to what the power stems from: lose faith: your own magic stops working. magic of the land conducted through products of the land (staffs and rods and whatnot), water grounds it. the wyld hunt operates on a hunt: pure predorial instinct and power. Water contains predators: barracudas, orcas (killer whale anyone?), sharks, piranas, etc. so the only thing neccessary si being flexible and consider yoruself a predator of the sea. problem solved. Plus, the wyld hunt is the private party of the Erlking, a peer of mab, aka big boy, who can probably spare some power jsut as he can recover quite quickly from loss of power due to getting in contact with metal bullets.

[Lea Plath]

So...I've read the book and wow...

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Changes was a warm up. This is really getting epic. However, couple of worries.

1) Molly isn't her sanest. And now she has the power of a vicious wicked faerie inside her which is gonna start changing her. She is also a wizard and a member of Micheal's family. Do you think we are gonna have an insane Maevolly running around? Or will Molly, like Harry has the potential to do, overcome the mantle and remain herself?

2) If the Outer Gates are real, are they technically part of the Nevernever up to a point? There is beyond the Outer Gates where the real Outsiders are, then their is the Outer Gates and the land beyond it that can be seen which is technically part of the Nevernever, just Outsiders rule it?

[BRC]

So...I've read the book and wow...

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Changes was a warm up. This is really getting epic. However, couple of worries.

1) Molly isn't her sanest. And now she has the power of a vicious wicked faerie inside her which is gonna start changing her. She is also a wizard and a member of Micheal's family. Do you think we are gonna have an insane Maevolly running around? Or will Molly, like Harry has the potential to do, overcome the mantle and remain herself?

2) If the Outer Gates are real, are they technically part of the Nevernever up to a point? There is beyond the Outer Gates where the real Outsiders are, then their is the Outer Gates and the land beyond it that can be seen which is technically part of the Nevernever, just Outsiders rule it?

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1) The way they describe it, I'm not sure it's really possible to "Overcome" one's mantle. If you are strong willed, and know what the mantle is doing to you, you can resist it, perhaps even for centuries, but eventually it will change you, subtly, slowly, but it will change you.

2) Everything outside of Material Earth is the "Nevernever", Faerie is just one part of the Nevernever, the part closest to the material, and the part that interacts with it the most. There are parts beyond Faerie that are not home to Outsiders, but mortals rarely have any reason to visit them.

[Alleran]

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Plus, the wyld hunt is the private party of the Erlking, a peer of mab, aka big boy, who can probably spare some power jsut as he can recover quite quickly from loss of power due to getting in contact with metal bullets.

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I got the strong impression that the Erlking basically let Harry bench him, actually. Ditto for Kringle, though his being Odin wearing a mask at the time makes it more understandable. Odin is, after all, a declared individual for Harry. He's in Dresden's corner, so to speak. The Erlking is more nebulous, but he does seem to view Harry as an amusing, and interesting, mortal. Their exchange in Changes would seem to bear that out. That said, just because the Erlking might like Harry doesn't mean he's not going to be anything other than what he is.

Also, the Wild Hunt can be co-opted and led for a particular purpose. I don't really think that the Erlking minded Harry taking control, since the Hunt got to kill Outsiders (in a thoroughly awesome fashion) and complete its purpose (i.e. to hunt), not to mention that Outsiders are not just worthy foes/challenges, but are also something that Faerie is opposed to on principle.

Now, if Harry had tried to make the Wild Hunt go back to the NeverNever and stop, the Erlking would have probably exchanged certain words with Harry. Also certain sharp stabbity objects.

So...I've read the book and wow...

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2) If the Outer Gates are real, are they technically part of the Nevernever up to a point? There is beyond the Outer Gates where the real Outsiders are, then their is the Outer Gates and the land beyond it that can be seen which is technically part of the Nevernever, just Outsiders rule it?

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I wonder if it is in part metaphorical. More literal than Harry thought it was, but not entirely literal. You see what your mind thinks you should see, and that gives shape and form and function. After all, when you think of something like "Outer Gates" your brain naturally goes to an image of a massive pair of gates in a similarly massive wall. In a sense, it would play into just how various gods, Fae, spirits and so on see and interpret the world around them.

After all, Mother Summer keeps diseases in clay pots on the wall of her cabin (at least some of which are from the future and don't yet exist). I doubt that she steps into the mortal world, breaks a pot over the head of a mortal to release it, and then steps back into the NeverNever. It's more... elemental, or metaphorical, than that.

[Anderlith]

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Anyone else think that the parasite might be the remnants of Lash?

[The Glyphstone]

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Anyone else think that the parasite might be the remnants of Lash?

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It's implied the parasite is some sort of physical entity, which Lash wasn't. But Butcher has also said Lash will return, so who knows...

[huttj509]

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So, I was talking with a friend and the Dresden series came up. She has not yet read the latest. She was really turned off by Ghost Story because of what happened to Molly. On hearing that, I THINK I managed to keep a straight face and not give anything away...

[Soras Teva Gee]

So...I've read the book and wow...

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1) Molly isn't her sanest. And now she has the power of a vicious wicked faerie inside her which is gonna start changing her. She is also a wizard and a member of Micheal's family. Do you think we are gonna have an insane Maevolly running around? Or will Molly, like Harry has the potential to do, overcome the mantle and remain herself?

I don't think that's the most pressing question. I think the most pressing for question Molly is:

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Can Michael still show up for his baby girl when her plumbing goes bad?

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2) If the Outer Gates are real, are they technically part of the Nevernever up to a point? There is beyond the Outer Gates where the real Outsiders are, then their is the Outer Gates and the land beyond it that can be seen which is technically part of the Nevernever, just Outsiders rule it?

Well you of course understand that while literal the location is equally symbolic.

And the border would seem (in strictest sense) to be a political or tactical one not entirely geographical, while beyond is a lip of turf leading comparatively shortly to a sharp slope down to the chaotic ocean beyond. When you build a wall against a cliff its pretty rare to go right to the absolute edge.

[Mauve Shirt]

It's been said

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Outside is not of our reality, while the Nevernever, especially Faerie, is. Even heaven and hell are part of our reality. Outside is completely and totally and inexplicably out of it.

'

By the way, I am impressed and proud of you all for avoiding the Maeve/Mauve trap.

[Drolyt]

It's been said

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Outside is not of our reality, while the Nevernever, especially Faerie, is. Even heaven and hell are part of our reality. Outside is completely and totally and inexplicably out of it.

'

By the way, I am impressed and proud of you all for avoiding the Maeve/Mauve trap.

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Has it been stated that heaven and hell are part of our reality the same way the Nevernever is? I mean, it makes sense for it to be, but I'm not sure I recall anyone saying that.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Has it been stated that heaven and hell are part of our reality the same way the Nevernever is? I mean, it makes sense for it to be, but I'm not sure I recall anyone saying that.

Lash confirmed in White Night that she is part of reality in a way Outsiders are not, ergo all the Fallen and angels would be part of reality too. Thus not Outsiders. And we also have pretty strong evidence God exists.

You can add up to a confirmation of broad Judeo-Christian cosmology as having a factual basis in the Dresdenverse which would imply Heaven/Hell exist in some fashion... thus would be nominally in the Nevernever "somewhere" since they aren't on Earth.

At the broadest level we only have three large scale locations laid out Earth(material/mortal world), the Nevernever, and Outside. It wouldn't be impossible for a few places we can say exist to not be within that system. Like where souls actually go after death. If Heaven and Hell exist in any sort of classical fashion they might as well.

(They might *not* be locations like we think of them though. White puffy clouds against fire and brimstone is only the most well known conceptualization. I'm reminded of Nick's "Apocalypse is a state of mind" comment here. We can't confirm what the Dresdenverse makes true unless/until it does)

[Anderlith]

Our reality does not have to include Heaven & Hell. Heaven & Hell could exist outside our reality in a way that they are an over-reality. Outsiders come from outside our reality separated by p-branes, but they do not exist outside of the over-reality that Heaven & Hell exist within. The over-reality can coexist with the reality shards perfectly fine, but the reality shards wouldn't be able to coexist together.

If I confused anyone I'm sorry. I can explain it better if I could draw diagrams or maybe just have Bob do it with a cool movie projection. (Anyone think his new home could be on Demonreach?)

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Dresdenverse spiritual realms of the Nevernever have nothing to do with physics.

Its a completely separate question really. As that ragged edge of physics is still strictly theories they are not nessecarily even true for the Dresdenverse. We know that any sort of magic implies a certain level of "wrongness" to physics from lacking facts, but to what extent we don't have data to determine.

If they are... then other material planes may well be "within" the scope of reality from an Earth/Nevernever/Outside stand point, or more likely each realm separated by physics would carry its own Nevernever (with local Mabs, Odins, mold demons, etc) and little carryover between them.

[Anderlith]

The Dresdenverse spiritual realms of the Nevernever have nothing to do with physics.

Its a completely separate question really. As that ragged edge of physics is still strictly theories they are not nessecarily even true for the Dresdenverse. We know that any sort of magic implies a certain level of "wrongness" to physics from lacking facts, but to what extent we don't have data to determine.

If they are... then other material planes may well be "within" the scope of reality from an Earth/Nevernever/Outside stand point, or more likely each realm separated by physics would carry its own Nevernever (with local Mabs, Odins, mold demons, etc) and little carryover between them.

Who says that there are other Nevernevers? The Nevernever as we/Dresden knows it may be exclusive to this reality. Also any fantasy world could exist in actuality, Dresden makes a point of mentioning how evocation & physics work in tandem. It could also be said that the Dresdenverse is Outside our reality, & we are Outside his, therefore noting the difference between our reality & his.

I mentioned the the limited multiverse theory because that model, is close to what I was describing. One vast Oververse, with smaller, satellite reality shards within. The reality shards peacefully coexist with the Oververse but not each other. The reason Heaven & Hell are accessible through the Nevernever is because the Nevernever may be Dresden's realities threshold to the Oververse, seeing as how the Outsiders come through from the Nevernever. Heaven & Hell exist in the Oververse & are nonhostile to the reality of Dresden's world, the Outsiders exist in a separate reality shard in proximity to Dresden's realiry shard & are therefore hostile to Dresden's reality. Perhaps they are colliding.

[Socratov]

By the way, I am impressed and proud of you all for avoiding the Maeve/Mauve trap.

hey just becuase nobody says it doens't mean it isn't so

Besides, since it's about an especially vicious mantle it might just explain a few things

I am, of course, joking, at least, I think I am...

[Mewtarthio]

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I've had a month or so to think about it now, and I don't think everyone realizes how bad it is that Molly is the winter Lady. Molly, the borderline insane, ex mind magic warlock, who knows where the 3 Swords are, is now the winter lady. Oh and she's also in love with Dresden. What do we know about the winter lady mantle? It makes you into a depraved psychopath who likes playing mind games and sleeps with the winter knight. So both Molly and Harry are going to be fighting against their mantles changing them too much, and all along their feeling for eachother, that trust and friendship that (in my mind at least) was always going to evolve into romance, will be actively working against them. The next few books are going to be brutal for them.

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The next all books are going to be brutal for everyone. This is the Dresden Files we're talking about, and it seems to be gearing up to take things seriously.

the next books are going to contain so much shipping
shipshipshipshipshipshipship

"We're people, not some damned ship!"

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One of the things I noticed in Harry's conversation with Mother Summer may touch on this, vis a vis the balance between Summer and Winter. It was said that Winter is in charge of protecting the Outer Gates, yes, but more specifically they are responsible for it in the current age of the world. To me it implies that like so many other things with Summer and Winter - especially how they change over with the turning of the seasons - just which Court is defending the Outer Gates will change. It's just a more long term one than a simple seasonal switch.

I caught that phrase, but I interpreted it as

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in this age, the Winter Court defends against the Outsiders. In past ages, it may not have even been the faeries at all. Maybe those meddling Venatori keep killing the current guardians of reality.

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1) The way they describe it, I'm not sure it's really possible to "Overcome" one's mantle. If you are strong willed, and know what the mantle is doing to you, you can resist it, perhaps even for centuries, but eventually it will change you, subtly, slowly, but it will change you.

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Uriel's seven words seem to contradict this. Now, Bob is pretty much certain that succumbing to the mantle is inevitable, but are you going to take his word over an archangle's?

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I wonder if it is in part metaphorical. More literal than Harry thought it was, but not entirely literal. You see what your mind thinks you should see, and that gives shape and form and function. After all, when you think of something like "Outer Gates" your brain naturally goes to an image of a massive pair of gates in a similarly massive wall. In a sense, it would play into just how various gods, Fae, spirits and so on see and interpret the world around them.

After all, Mother Summer keeps diseases in clay pots on the wall of her cabin (at least some of which are from the future and don't yet exist). I doubt that she steps into the mortal world, breaks a pot over the head of a mortal to release it, and then steps back into the NeverNever. It's more... elemental, or metaphorical, than that.

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That makes a lot of sense, given the nature of the Nevernever. I wonder if humanity's collective psychology influences the Outer Gates in more substantive manners. For instance, maybe the White Council's strict prohibition on studying the Outsiders protects reality, not simply because fewer people going Outside equals fewer vessels for Nemesis, but also because the widely-held conviction that the Outer Gates should not be opened causes the Outer Gates to become things that should not be opened.

Oh, and about those jars:

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The one that's not to be opened yet was Wormwood. The bitter poison that falls from the stars. From the Biblical Apocalypse. So, who wants to take bets on when that thing gets opened?

[Mauve Shirt]

Man, someone needs to go to a Q&A and ask Jim about the layout of the Nevernever, IE where faerie ends and where the "other parts" we've heard mentioned begin. I suspect we'd get a "♪♫ I'm not gonna tell you ♫♪♫"


GUYS GUYS GUYS He might be doing a Twitter Q&A sometime soon, if one of you can be there you should ask the question! I would be there, but I don't know if he'll do it doing my work hours. He's @longshotauthor by the way.