LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles

[pffh]

Right I've been wondering since female pants aren't designed like male pants and how would dude dresses/skirts be designed if it were as socially acceptable for blokes to wear those as it is for chicks to wear pants?

[Lentrax]

Right I've been wondering since female pants aren't designed like male pants and how would dude dresses/skirts be designed if it were as socially acceptable for blokes to wear those as it is for chicks to wear pants?

They just call them kilts, and you can always wear one of those.

[pffh]

They just call them kilts, and you can always wear one of those.

Aye I own a kilt but that's just one style and that's just for the skirts but how for example would a dress that was designed for the male form look?

[Coidzor]

Aye I own a kilt but that's just one style and that's just for the skirts but how for example would a dress that was designed for the male form look?

Probably togay/robey or pseudo-Olympian.

[noparlpf]

Ok.

Why are cats always on the wrong side of a closed door?

Because a cat defines 'wrong side' as 'side I am on'.

(paws at Asta's ankle, mews)

Yeah, basically.
Saw a comic strip explaining why cats have nine lives. (The Christian) God is standing holding the gate to (the Christian) Heaven open for the cat and saying, "Well, are you going in or not?"
(Specifying religion because American media is so bloody Christian-oriented and I don't want to seem to be citing some universally accepted image of the afterlife when it's actually just one group's.)

Maybe we could reserve the political philosophy for another forum.

Yes, I know. I know that people care about these things. It's just that sometimes I get so sad because people are so stupid.

Meh. Rant over.

I'm often tempted to avoid the internet because people are so bloody stupid.
(My British P-Chem prof. probably means I'm never going to shed the Britishisms I picked up from watching British TV and reading British books this summer.)

I always found it to be an offensive and nonsensical stereotype and so I thought for the longest time that it was a bit of gay-bashing that had been coopted by camp performers and so was never used in a serious, identifying way but rather to either mock gays or to mock bigots by playing the role of a fabulous person in a specific social setting or work of fiction. So my mind more goes to homophobia and poking fun at it more than anything else when I hear someone use that voice.

...When I don't want to stop up my ears because most people can't do the voice right...

When used mockingly anything is offensive. It's intended to be offensive. Otherwise, I've heard that some gay cultures adopt some stereotypes as actual things as another way of identifying with the culture.

Right I've been wondering since female pants aren't designed like male pants and how would dude dresses/skirts be designed if it were as socially acceptable for blokes to wear those as it is for chicks to wear pants?

I dunno. Girl skirts generally work fine on guys. The pants are different because female and male hip proportions are different, but most skirts just hang from one point, so that's less of an issue.
Dresses is another question, but I'm not a big fan of dresses anyway, so I'm not going to think about that.

They just call them kilts, and you can always wear one of those.

Kilts and skirts are like apples and oranges. Both delicious, vastly different things.

[golentan]

I always found it to be an offensive and nonsensical stereotype and so I thought for the longest time that it was a bit of gay-bashing that had been coopted by camp performers and so was never used in a serious, identifying way but rather to either mock gays or to mock bigots by playing the role of a fabulous person in a specific social setting or work of fiction. So my mind more goes to homophobia and poking fun at it more than anything else when I hear someone use that voice.

...When I don't want to stop up my ears because most people can't do the voice right...

Actually, voice is one of the few successful methods I've had with my "gaydar." It's more subtle than people play it up as (it's not a "fabulous lisp" but it is this slight softness around some consonants and a small rasping noise on I's and E's), but I've noticed a particular intonation in a lot of non-flamboyant gay men which makes me prick up my ears. Yes... ears...

Anyway, not everyone who's gay has it, but everyone who has it has been gay in my experience. It's been behind the few times I have successfully hit on a guy.

[Coidzor]

When used mockingly anything is offensive. It's intended to be offensive. Otherwise, I've heard that some gay cultures adopt some stereotypes as actual things as another way of identifying with the culture.

And while I'm fine with groups having things in common, intentionally sublimating one's personal identity into the group persona just seems like a bad idea in general.

I dunno. Girl skirts generally work fine on guys. The pants are different because female and male hip proportions are different, but most skirts just hang from one point, so that's less of an issue.
Dresses is another question, but I'm not a big fan of dresses anyway, so I'm not going to think about that.

Well, how and what you emphasize of the gluteals and thighs is going to vary to some extent.

[Mina Kobold]

*sigh*

Why are people so fixated on whether sexual orientation is genetic, environmental or chosen?

It doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with having a specific sexual orientation. Who cares? Why can't people understand that?

It might be interesting because it tells us how the brain represents things like these but apart from that? Mind your own business.

I think it is because a lot of people seem to unconsciously assume that life is about reproduction. Essentially, they see it as impossible to not want to win the game of heteronormativity, so they must "save" those who seem not to. Which is a sad twisted view of reality. ;_;

Hopefully more will soon realise that there are more than one way to play the games of life and that not everyone likes the same minigames?

Aye I own a kilt but that's just one style and that's just for the skirts but how for example would a dress that was designed for the male form look?

I am still working on learning about clothing, but maybe it would look like a robe? ^_^

A lot of robes in fiction or older fashions look very much like dresses for another body type to me, but I might be mistaken. ^_^'

[turkishproverb]

Avast, ye! *ze hugz of doomz*

Agh! Got me!

[Zorg]

Re: Man dresses, there are many options available:

Homer: I'm looking for something loose and billowy, something comfortable for my first day of work.

Salesman: Work, huh? Let me guess. Computer programmer, computer magazine columnist, something with computers?

Homer: Well, I use a computer.

Salesman: [quietly, to self] Yeah, what's the connection? Must be the non-stop sitting and snacking.
[more audibly] Well, sir, many of our clients find pants confining, so we offer a range of alternatives for the ample gentleman: ponchos, muumuus, capes, jumpsuits, unisheets, muslim body rolls, academic and judicial robes --

Homer: I don't want to look like a weirdo. I'll just go with a muumuu.

[Lentrax]

Yeah, the sarcastic/witty half of my brain is out for a considerable overhaul. I'm just left with what was left at the bottom of my very small joke barrel.

And I totally forgot about that episode of the Simpsons. Working at home. That's Homer for ya.

[Zorg]

I watched waaaaaay too much Simpsons growing up - I can relate almost anything to an episode or quote. I even do it with my therapist.

Case in point: when Marge is having a flashback with a therapist over her fear of flying to her childhood but realises that what she was remembering was actually Prince of Tides.

Referenceception!

[Arachu]

There's also the fact that my sister watched one called "10 things I hate about you" and decided that I was just like one of the main characters (the loner sister, I think?) and then decided that all that was needed to "fix" me was just to get a good boyfriend *ROLLS EYES*. She never stopped bugging me about it and it's left a rather bitter and gross aftertaste.

:< *Hugs!*

Hello, all! I've been lurking these threads for quite some time now, and I feel that now is the time for me to pop my head in and say hello.

For quite a long time now, I have been doing some soulsearching, trying to find answers to questions that I cannot even form, let alone answer, on my own. But the one I did know, the one I still have yet to find a true answer for is the simplest.

"Who am I?"

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Simple, but at the same time complex. I was born male, and grew up male. My home was predominately male, and I had expectations placed upon me. Then I became a victim of bullying to such an extent that I broke. I began to fear that with all the name calling and physical abuse I was going through that there was genuinely something wrong with me, and that I had to find what it was and fix it.

And so it went for years. I tried on different 'me-hats,' changing one thing or another about myself. I would spend months trying to see what, if anything made my life better. Or more specifically made me feel better. At the advice of my psychologist, I made a list of things I liked about me, and things I hated. And that was when I started crossdressing. I changed everything about myself. Not just one or two things, but everything. I spoke to counselors, psychologists, anyone who worked with the mind or soul.

Some were encouraging, trying to give me hope that I could be happy again.

But I wasn't. Not even going through my metamrphosis helped. I changed schools, changed my name, changed everything I could, but I was still broken. I went one dates in high school, went with guys and gils alike, searching for someone who could help me not feel so broken.

Anyway, to make a long(er) story short, I never did find what I was looking for. But I did learn the most important thing. I was never broken to begin with. I still don't know who I am, or even what I am, but I hope to find out.

I really hope that wasn't too long for everyone. Like I said, I want to know who I am, and if that means sharing myself with others, then all the better right? Its time I shared myself. I am tired of living with my shattered reflection.

Gah, I'd know a thing or two about that sort of thing. >.> *Hugs!*

Welcome to the thread~ I hope the repairs with your mirror go well, so you can see the beautiful person reflected in it soon.

Hmm... Okay, I hope this won't be too offensive, but I'm going to go ahead and comment why I have some of the reactions I do to asexuals and aromantics.

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I know it may be a failing of mine, but I will admit I can't imagine a life free of romantic entanglement. I fell head over heels for a girl in my daycare center before age 3, and she makes up about 2/3 of my earliest memories. I've gotten gooey eyed over other people fairly consistently since then. So people who can't or don't feel that kind of emotional connection come off as alien and disturbing to me. More so than normal humans, because that's one of the few connections I feel with other people's emotions. So many of the things humanity does feel alien and horrific to me, ranging from decorative full body clothing, to drinking fizzy beverages and intoxicants, to collecting pay and theft (yes, the two concepts are closely linked in my mind).

Removing such a key touchstone where I feel I actually have something in common with most people leaves me grasping at straws. I get confused, and I get upset, and I get a little xenophobic thrill of fear. I don't push the person away, mind. I usually try to dig deeper in an attempt to understand the person, which extremely awkwardly has twice led to me falling head over heels for someone with absolutely zero interest in me beyond my ability to swap stupid sci-fi jokes over lunch and discuss books. And I'm left sitting there with perfect clarity that they will never, ever love me back, and still with zero clarity on why, and with this big confusing muddle of emotions including many negatives, many internally directed.

I hope that doesn't make me a worse person.

I think I... Kind of get it? I can't quite put my metaphor into words, but I can see where someone just wouldn't find anyone particularly attractive in that way. It seems like it would be like not being attracted to everyone, but... Moreso.

Just found out from a friend on WoW that apparently I don't 'sound' gay (voice chat). I've always thought I have that slightly feminine sounding voice, and liked it... But to hear that I sound very straight (her words) is just very odd to me. And she knew that I like stereotypically gay things as well, such as Pop music, musicals (only a few), and fashion.

What is wrong with the world.. -_-

*Hugs*

I agree, and sympathize with your situation. Back in middle school there was one girl in the class who was convinced I was lying when I said I didn't "like like" any girls in the class, and would ask me literally every day which girl I liked. During high school, my mom all but jumped for joy when I spent time with any girls whatsoever. I almost wish they'd accused me of being gay, since that would have let me get over the whole coming out thing faster. On the plus side, neither of my folks is clamoring for me to get "fixed" by getting into a relationship now.

*Hugs* Mrr, I'm bi but because I managed to avoid gawking at every woman in a ten-mile radius growing up my parents assumed I was... Iunno, gay I guess. They didn't really say it that much, and they might have been more confused by me not trying to impress everyone all the time.

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*I now have the strange urge to start calling non-Homo sapiens species Hetero sapiens for giggles, even though I realize it's completely incorrect, etymologically speaking.

Well, most of us are pretty convinced we're different from everything else somehow...

So, I've got my first consultation with a therapist today, and another tomorrow. I'm very nervous and jittery, and I didn't sleep too well. I have no idea what kind of questions they're going to ask, or whether I'll be able to answer (I have a very hard time talking out loud). Hopefully everything goes well, and I can find someone who can help me.

*Hugs and crosses her fingers for you~*

Also.. Am I the only person who likes feeling out to -everyone-? I mean, I can't even talk to many people (mostly online) for long without saying something about my sexuality, because I feel weird, like I'm hiding it from them. And I just feel plain wrong.. Does anyone else feel like this?

I tend to explain my gender and sexuality pretty early, but that's mostly because I like talking about myself. *Hugs*

You misspelled "Best Coast".

X3

*sigh*

Why are people so fixated on whether sexual orientation is genetic, environmental or chosen?

It doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with having a specific sexual orientation. Who cares? Why can't people understand that?

It might be interesting because it tells us how the brain represents things like these but apart from that? Mind your own business.

*Nod*

Ok.

Why are cats always on the wrong side of a closed door?

They aren't; the door being closed in the first place is what's wrong.


~Bianca

[Absol197]

Thanks to everybody who offered their support!

That went just about as well as could be expected. And by that, I mean that I spent the majority of the time struggling to say anything. I was able to say more than I expected, though, which was nice.

I think I could see myself confiding in her, but I'm going to reserve judgement until I've met with the other two I've contacted.

[Kindablue]

[noparlpf]

Thanks to everybody who offered their support!

That went just about as well as could be expected. And by that, I mean that I spent the majority of the time struggling to say anything. I was able to say more than I expected, though, which was nice.

I think I could see myself confiding in her, but I'm going to reserve judgement until I've met with the other two I've contacted.

Hey, that sounds pretty good. Good luck on the next two, and hopefully the experience with the first one makes talking to the next two easier.


I'll be seeing a counselor starting next Tuesday, by the bye. Because apparently that's a thing we mention here. I don't know what to talk about though, it's mostly just a requirement because I'm in a medical single and have had emotional issues in recent years. But I'm doing pretty well now aside from stomach trouble and bad skin due to the stress of the new environment.

[SiuiS]

/chuckles She's engaged, so she's not into me. Thank you both though :)

Also.. Am I the only person who likes feeling out to -everyone-? I mean, I can't even talk to many people (mostly online) for long without saying something about my sexuality, because I feel weird, like I'm hiding it from them. And I just feel plain wrong.. Does anyone else feel like this?

Yeah, but who knows?

I mostly agree with you, except I have filters that let me feel okay with excluding EVERYONE at the same way I feel okay telling everyone. Y'know?

I'm out on about half the forum I frequent, and ive lost contact with half of the folks on Xbox I play with since I put my avatar in a dress. Dress up on the Internet is pretty cathartic though. Totally surprised by that actually.

It makes you no worse at all. That you are trying to understand people so different from you makes you many times better than most. ^_^

I am not sure it helps, but I understand sexual people by thinking of it as eating liquorice. Gross and not interesting to me, but just a difference in taste. I quite enjoy friendships and chocolate, for instance, so I see how romance and liquorice would be fun.

I feel a building need to hug you.

Like either\ˈgās\ or /geɪs/? :3

Aaaand this is why!

*sigh*

Why are people so fixated on whether sexual orientation is genetic, environmental or chosen?

It doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with having a specific sexual orientation. Who cares? Why can't people understand that?

It might be interesting because it tells us how the brain represents things like these but apart from that? Mind your own business.

Path of least resistance. Understanding homosexuality and the like as a physical anomaly or defect which isn't the homosexual's fault, let's you divorce your dislike from the person who has that trait. So you can be a homophobe and still be able to function with homosexuals.

Or that's my initial reading. There's more, but my brain is not in a processing mode just the now.

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. - The Fountainhead.

Hmm. Do you believe this? It's an interesting thing to think about. But couldn't privacy also be considered a root of a lot of problems?

Your avatar is totes adorbs.

It is, it is!

Shame. SHAME! Civilization is a move towards collaborative building and functional empathy beyond the instinctive ties and bonds of genetics. Other side effects (which I do not acknowledge that quote as having hit upon) are just that: side effects. Usually memetic, sometimes genetic side effects. Some of which are cool, some of which are horrendous.

Hmm. This sounds interesting but this isn't the place to find out about it. Where would you suggest I look?

[KenderWizard]

So I think I just actually felt how it feels to be a minority for the first time. Grokking it has always been kind of hard, having grown up white and cis-male. Anyway, I was just being frustrated at neurotypical people for taking stuff like empathy for granted and then not appreciating it and not even making use of it half the time, when for some of us it's such hard work.

There's almost always something! That's the big thing about privilege. Some people have more than others, but not very many people actually belong to the white, male, heteronormative, gendernormative, neurotypical, upper class, affluent, fully able bodied group. And those people still have empathy (neurotypical!) so they can just take ten seconds to think about someone else.

[Kindablue]

Hmm. Do you believe this? It's an interesting thing to think about. But couldn't privacy also be considered a root of a lot of problems?

I'm not an objectivist, but the main idea is that if everyone is just looking out for themselves, altruism becomes obsolete. The funny thing about Rand's books is that they've become intrinsically inflammatory. Not that that quote was anodyne, but I think you can say just about anything "... - Ayn Rand" and it will upset people. I respect that.

[Saposhiente]

"Hello." - Ayn Rand

[Arachu]

Thanks to everybody who offered their support!

That went just about as well as could be expected. And by that, I mean that I spent the majority of the time struggling to say anything. I was able to say more than I expected, though, which was nice.

I think I could see myself confiding in her, but I'm going to reserve judgement until I've met with the other two I've contacted.

Hope the other sessions go just as well ~

*Image*

I'll be seeing a counselor starting next Tuesday, by the bye. Because apparently that's a thing we mention here. I don't know what to talk about though, it's mostly just a requirement because I'm in a medical single and have had emotional issues in recent years. But I'm doing pretty well now aside from stomach trouble and bad skin due to the stress of the new environment.

*Hugs*

There's almost always something! That's the big thing about privilege. Some people have more than others, but not very many people actually belong to the white, male, heteronormative, gendernormative, neurotypical, upper class, affluent, fully able bodied group. And those people still have empathy (neurotypical!) so they can just take ten seconds to think about someone else.

In my opinion, people who judge people for lacking empathy are being hypocrites. Bigotry doesn't exactly imply understanding...

(Granted, I've also rejected morality for being oversimplified and prejudicial so I might have a bias. )

I'm not an objectivist, but the main idea is that if everyone is just looking out for themselves, altruism becomes obsolete. The funny thing about Rand's books is that they've become intrinsically inflammatory. Not that that quote was anodyne, but I think you can say just about anything "... - Ayn Rand" and it will upset people. I respect that.

I've been thinking... Wouldn't being benefited by the well-being of others be altruism? Calling it selfishness just seems like a false dichotomy to me. @.@


~Bianca

[Coidzor]

(Granted, I've also rejected morality for being oversimplified and prejudicial so I might have a bias. )

Then what's wrong with being a hypocrite? How is bigotry noteworthy?

I've been thinking... Wouldn't being benefited by the well-being of others be altruism? Calling it selfishness just seems like a false dichotomy to me. @.@

Well, I once thought the usual way of referring to that was enlightened self interest. Here, "coincidence" might work better.

[Kindablue]

They look really comfortable. I think I would dress like that every day if it didn't hurt my eyes so much.

[Lilac_Shade]

I received many hugs a few pages back. Thanks, y'all. *hugs the whole thread*

[Absol197]

Hey, that sounds pretty good. Good luck on the next two, and hopefully the experience with the first one makes talking to the next two easier.


I'll be seeing a counselor starting next Tuesday, by the bye. Because apparently that's a thing we mention here. I don't know what to talk about though, it's mostly just a requirement because I'm in a medical single and have had emotional issues in recent years. But I'm doing pretty well now aside from stomach trouble and bad skin due to the stress of the new environment.

I don't know if it's something we normally mention here - it just relates to my quest to get a handle my identity, and is something that I've been nervous about for a while. No one's told me to stop, and I'm not actually saying what we talked about (because that would be confidential information ).

Hopefully your meeting goes well!

I received many hugs a few pages back. Thanks, y'all. *hugs the whole thread*

Wow, you must have very big arms to hug an entire thread!

Did you ever decide whether you were going to sign up for that ballet class?

[noparlpf]

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. - The Fountainhead.

I disagree. I read that as saying that people should become more selfish; rather than working with other people, doing everything alone and for oneself.
I wish more people were more involved in helping each other than in helping themselves. (This works better on a small scale, like a small village of a few hundred, than on a big scale, like a country.) My morals are based on a simple "my rights stop where yours start" with a bit of "do unto others" thrown in because it helps with forethought, and that's basically all a small group needs in the way of laws, besides a brief list of agreed-upon basic rights to not infringe upon. (Obvious ones include life, liberty, personal property, physical and psychological wellbeing). So the bit about "ruled by the laws of his tribe" is unnecessary. Anyway, that also means that if you want people to help you, or even just treat you decently in passing, you have to do the same. And having lived in a freshman boys' dorm for two years, I can tell you that that is sorely lacking, and that we all suffered as a result. Too much privacy has negative consequences.

There's almost always something! That's the big thing about privilege. Some people have more than others, but not very many people actually belong to the white, male, heteronormative, gendernormative, neurotypical, upper class, affluent, fully able bodied group. And those people still have empathy (neurotypical!) so they can just take ten seconds to think about someone else.

You'd think. Step one of sympathy (feeling with another) is empathy, identifying others' emotions and possible plight. And so many people don't even bother to think about other people, let alone recognise that they might have feelings, let alone recognise that those feelings might be negative, let alone feel bad about that, let alone do anything about it.

I've been thinking... Wouldn't being benefited by the well-being of others be altruism? Calling it selfishness just seems like a false dichotomy to me. @.@

~Bianca

Basically. Altruism is doing something for someone "for free". But if everyone does that, you get more than you started with as peoples' efforts compliment and synergise with each other. [Insert quote from Aristotle.] And then you benefit from helping others.

I don't know if it's something we normally mention here - it just relates to my quest to get a handle my identity, and is something that I've been nervous about for a while. No one's told me to stop, and I'm not actually saying what we talked about (because that would be confidential information ).

Hopefully your meeting goes well!

Yeah, mine's not about gender or sexuality. I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.
Thanks!

[Lentrax]

Yeah, mine's not about gender or sexuality. I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

Maybe not, but stress is a huge factor in our entire well being. And it may be a requirement for you, but you should still take it seriously.

And who knows? Maybe it will help you in ways you don't expect.

Either way, best wishes!

[Arachu]

*Also well-wishes for Nope~*

Then what's wrong with being a hypocrite? How is bigotry noteworthy?

Isn't it obvious? How could anyone not totally agree with everything I say at all times?

Well, I once thought the usual way of referring to that was enlightened self interest. Here, "coincidence" might work better.

X3

I received many hugs a few pages back. Thanks, y'all. *hugs the whole thread*

*More hugs~* ^_^


~Bianca

[Asta Kask]

I've been thinking... Wouldn't being benefited by the well-being of others be altruism? Calling it selfishness just seems like a false dichotomy to me. @.@


~Bianca

She was going by the Kantian definition - an action undertaken for selfish reasons, even if it also benefits other people, is morally worthless. Only if the action is undertaken without any thought of gaining anything is it morally worth anything.

Rand's definition was basically this - you sum up the positive and the negative and if the sum total is positive, it's a selfish act. If the sum total is negative, it's an altruistic act. It's an extreme position but it's not illogical.

[KenderWizard]

I'll be seeing a counselor starting next Tuesday, by the bye. Because apparently that's a thing we mention here. I don't know what to talk about though, it's mostly just a requirement because I'm in a medical single and have had emotional issues in recent years. But I'm doing pretty well now aside from stomach trouble and bad skin due to the stress of the new environment.

What's a medical single?

I'm looking forward to getting back to therapy. It's so nice, after you get past the awkwardness, to have someone who doesn't have anything else to do right now but listen to you. I have people to talk to, and I do talk to my mother, my partner, my close female friend, but you know, sometimes you don't want to bother them, or you want to talk about one or more of them. I'm very pro-therapy, I think it's healthy to have a space to talk about stuff, and just talking through problems can really help.


So question! A friend of mine posted on her facebook linking to a quote from a website saying something along the lines of "it bothers me when straight people refer to their significant other as their 'partner'". (She's lesbian.) Is that a thing?