Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Mike Havran]

As I said, if he casts another 5th or 6th level spell, then either his wisdom is higher or he is level 12(+).

Actually, we already know this, from analysis of his spells he casted before(I have written it in this thread a page or so ago). But this "or" is too complicated to include it to his sheet I guess, so maybe it's best to wait.

[Dr. Gamera]

Surprisingly to some, but not to others, Durkon has no eighth-level spells.

[Bling Cat]

Does the most recent comic provide us with enough evidence to declare Malack Evil?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I think this last comic removed all remaining doubt--Malack's evil.

[EmperorSarda]

Surprisingly to some, but not to others, Durkon has no eighth-level spells.

Which means Durkon is no higher than 14th level which means that Belkar is 15th level.

Edit: And Zz'dtri as well.

[mawexzon]

Yep, Malack is Evil, and Lawful with all that "we all are slaves" and the servitude to a higher being part.

[Procyonpi]

Which means Durkon is no higher than 14th level which means that Belkar is 15th level.

Edit: And Zz'dtri as well.

Rich thought Mass Death Ward was a homebrewed 8th level spell, not an official 7th level one.

Although I've always thought the "let's judge Belkar's level based on the number of attacks in what we're assuming to be a round in a comedic fight scene" was always somewhat flimsy.

[Hunter548]

Malack is Lawful Evil, if 875 is any indicator.

[Kish]

Rich thought Mass Death Ward was a homebrewed 8th level spell, not an official 7th level one.

You've got it backwards. He didn't realize there was an official 8th level Mass Death Ward and was eyeballing the homebrew spell he was creating at 7th level.

Although I've always thought the "let's judge Belkar's level based on the number of attacks in what we're assuming to be a round in a comedic fight scene" was always somewhat flimsy.

Me too. Extremely.

[EmperorSarda]

Rich thought Mass Death Ward was a homebrewed 8th level spell, not an official 7th level one.

You've got it backwards. He didn't realize there was an official 8th level Mass Death Ward and was eyeballing the homebrew spell he was creating at 7th level.

To further comment on this, if Mass Death Ward were considered to be an 8th level spell by The Giant, then Durkon would have another 8th level spell to cast. Which he said this strip he does not.

Additionally, Durkon has cast (or has prepared) five 6th level spells: 6th – extended true seeing, find the path, heal (2) and Planar Ally
A cleric of 14th level can only cast 3 spells plus the domain spell. Which means Durkon's wisdom score is at least 22 to have that bonus spell.

[Draz74]

Although I've always thought the "let's judge Belkar's level based on the number of attacks in what we're assuming to be a round in a comedic fight scene" was always somewhat flimsy.

It is. But certainly we have no proof that it wasn't a one-round full attack. And Durkon's latest statement doesn't change this; he could easily have used his Level 8 slot(s) to cast a Level 7 spell today.

Or he could have cast one off-screen, but I grant that's a flimsier possibility.

After all, we've seen V cast Level 8 spells a whopping twice or so. And that's over hundreds of strips since (s)he first demonstrated the ability. EDIT: Mis-remembered V's leveling schedule.

[EmperorSarda]

And Durkon's latest statement doesn't change this; he could easily have used his Level 8 slot(s) to cast a Level 7 spell today.

That's fair. Durkon has cast/prepared four 7th level spells, which barring a wisdom score of at least 24 would mean he could be 15th level. Except that would only account for one 8th level spell slot. And Durkon, has said he doesn't have any higher level spells that can help with the fight. (Since Resurrection, Planar Ally and Thor's Might cannot be cast.)

So I think that is a point against Durkon being 16th level.

[zimmerwald1915]

Reposted from the Durkon Spells thread:

The tally now stands at:

8th –
7th – holy word^D, mass death ward, resurrection (2)
6th – extended true seeing, find the path, heal (2), planar ally
5th – thor's might, true seeing
4th – cure critical wounds
3rd – dispel magic, mass resist energy, meld into stone, remove blindness/deafness, speak with dead, thor's lightning^D
2nd – cure moderate wounds, hold person (2), remove paralysis
1st – cure light wounds, divine favor
0 (at-will) – detect poison, guidance

...plus at least two healing spells of unknown (though probably fifth) level.

[SowZ]

So we are changing Malack's alignment to Evil, no?

[Procyonpi]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I've recently been playing a spontaneous divine caster, and keep wanting to say Durkon has ___ before remembering that Clerics do not work that way.

[SavageWombat]

I have doubts that even Divine Favor is enough to enable Durkon to reliably penetrate Malack's DR. I suspect he's Power Attacking.

[Stormlock]

I have doubts that even Divine Favor is enough to enable Durkon to reliably penetrate Malack's DR. I suspect he's Power Attacking.

Doesn't need to be reliable to penetrate. And we don't even know if it did yet.

On the subject of his level/wis- I think the assumptions for how many spell slots he has based on things he has stated he COULD cast are more than a little shaky. He could easily be planning to cast those spells from scrolls. He references being able to cast Planar Ally 5 or 6 times with a new stock of spells, but that may very well include higher level spell slots used to memorize the spell, or a scroll.

[ti'esar]

While the latest comic does show Malack is unquestionably LE, I'm actually against adding that to the thread. Given the issues with alignment and these forums, I don't think declaring character alignment without an explicit statement in-comic or from the Giant is a precedent we want to set.

[EatAtEmrakuls]

While the latest comic does show Malack is unquestionably LE, I'm actually against adding that to the thread. Given the issues with alignment and these forums, I don't think declaring character alignment without an explicit statement in-comic or from the Giant is a precedent we want to set.

You've got to be kidding.

[Da'Shain]

While the latest comic does show Malack is unquestionably LE, I'm actually against adding that to the thread. Given the issues with alignment and these forums, I don't think declaring character alignment without an explicit statement in-comic or from the Giant is a precedent we want to set.

Vampires are Always Evil, which means that exceptions are incredibly rare. The character just admitted to wishing to run an empire built on slavery and human (sapient) sacrifice.

Lawful might still be up for debate (not really, but we don't have as strong in-system evidence), but Evil? Short of a declaration by the Giant, there's pretty much no evidence that could possibly show he's not Evil.

[Shale]

With the alignment debates this forum is disposed to, anything that breaks the "no alignment in the stats thread without mechanical proof or an explicit statement of fact by the character" rule could open the door to a lot of, "well, Redcloak is clearly Lawful Neutral, it's every bit as obvious as Malack being Lawful Evil."

[Sunken Valley]

I propose Durkon has a wisdom of 22+. You people are saying he doesn't because he burnt his find the path, extended true seeing, 2 heals and Katy is unusable. But Durkon actually used 3 heals.

Here is YukYuk being injured by running up stairs. Ouch. That is a lot of damage. But by 841 its all gone from the Kobold. Therefore, Durkon spent a 3rd heal

[hamishspence]

He could have used multiple Cure spells.

[Sunken Valley]

He could have used multiple Cure spells.

look at all that damage, he must have spent over 11d8 worth of healing spells. Here is a comparison, where Redcloak is equally wounded.. Its not practical.

[zimmerwald1915]

look at all that damage, he must have spent over 11d8 worth of healing spells. Here is a comparison, where Redcloak is equally wounded.. Its not practical.

He could also have cast heal from a scroll. It's off-panel, we don't know.

[EnragedFilia]

I have doubts that even Divine Favor is enough to enable Durkon to reliably penetrate Malack's DR. I suspect he's Power Attacking.

If he has power attack, a flat-footed target with significant DR wearing no evident armor and with no good reason to have a meaningful dex bonus would be pretty much the idea time to use it.

In addition, depending on exactly what kind of hammer he's using, it might do non-physical bonus damage which ignores DR innately.

[Flame of Anor]

So we are changing Malack's alignment to Evil, no?

I certainly hope so.

[ti'esar]

With the alignment debates this forum is disposed to, anything that breaks the "no alignment in the stats thread without mechanical proof or an explicit statement of fact by the character" rule could open the door to a lot of, "well, Redcloak is clearly Lawful Neutral, it's every bit as obvious as Malack being Lawful Evil."

Yeah, this is pretty much my reason. I don't see any rational way that this kind of argument could be made, but then it's not like most of the people arguing (say) Belkar is Chaotic Neutral are being particularly rational in the first place.

It's just not a healthy precedent to set.

[Douglas]

It's just not a healthy precedent to set.

This. I don't think there's any real doubt that Malack is evil, but listing it now would raise the question of where do we draw the line. As is, we've been using a policy of "game mechanic or explicit in character statement from someone who would know" (plus Word of Giant, but that goes for everything), and Malack still doesn't satisfy that.

If anyone has a suggestion for an equally clear policy standard that would list Malack as Evil, I'd like to hear it.

[Dark Matter]

If anyone has a suggestion for an equally clear policy standard that would list Malack as Evil, I'd like to hear it.

We do it how we've always done it. List him as "Evil", and link that claim to #875.

If someone wants to come in and present a serious argument that it's not evidence, and/or that there's evidence somewhere else of him being non-evil, then we can talk about it then.

But right now, as far as I can tell, there's NO ONE who looks at that and says anything other than "yep, he's Evil". The weight of proof is really that convincing, so we should use it.