A rather huge encounter

[Nihb]

Hi folks,

I'm currently running an ad-hoc campaign, where I set up the world, but let my players loose in it, each with their sets of goals, within a single theme, which is overthrowing the current power in place in a country.

So far, things are going well, but last session, the party decided to attack a tax convoy, coming back from a village to bring back the money to the capital. From what they've learned, they'll be facing 25 soldiers (sergeants, captains, privates, rookies, and some more specialized units), and they asked for help from a band of bandits they had met a few days earlier.

What I have is 25 ennemies, 19 NPC allies and 4 player characters. It's kind of a mess, and I can't imagine running that encounter smoothly without losing some of my players' attention.

I'm not unfamilliar with the Heroes of Battle book from 3.5, but I don't thing this battle is large enough for some of the suggestions they might be offering. So, I'm looking for some of your suggestions.

Did you ever had such a huge number of units in play, either as a DM or player? Are you for or against merging some of the units?

[EvilAvocado]

A good tactic I have seen is rolling all the similar NPC's together.

For example:

Initiative:
PC 1
All archer bandits
Sergeants
PC 2
PC3
Footsoldiers
ETC...

that will save a lot of time with switching around and keeping track of what you have to roll for... It's easier to roll 7d20 at once and counting the hits then doing individual rolls for EVERY unit.

[BRC]

Simplify things.
So you have 19 bandits and 4 PC's fighting 25 enemy soldiers. Don't try to run the entire encounter, rolling for every blow. When I run battles like this, I usually just assume that the PC's allies can handle most of the PC's enemies, and set the PC's up against a standard encounter, with the expectation being that if they win, their allies finish off the rest of the mooks.

Something sligthly more complex could be a "Tide of Battle" system.
Assign a bonus to each combatant, add those up to generate each side's Score. At the start of each round, each side rolls d20+score.
For every five points by which the PC's are winning that round, add an NPC Bandit ally to the encounter, which goes away once the tide of battle shifts. For every five points by which the PC's lose, add a Soldier Enemy to the encounter, which also goes away once the tide shifts.

When one side wins the roll, reduce the other side's score by some number (Maybe 1d4 for every 5 by which the other side is winning). If the PC's kill an enemy, reduce the Soldier's score. If a PC gets taken out, reduce their score.

The idea here is that there is a chaotic melee going on all around them. With the PC's handling the enemy officers.

Example: 4 PC's vs a Captain, a Warmage, and three Lieutenants. Soldiers start with a score of 30, Bandits with a score of 25.

Round 1, Soldiers win by 10, the PC's need to deal with two Privates.
Round 2, Soldiers win by 3, the two Privates get pulled back into the Melee.
Round 3, Bandits win by 10, two Bandit allies show up to help the PC's.
Round 4, Scores tied, the bandits get pulled back into the Melee, PC's kill the Warmage. Soldier's score drops.

You can also mix things up a little. Maybe the Wizard could summon a monster and throw it into the Melee, giving the Bandits a bonus, or the enemy captain could give a warcry, giving the Soldiers a bonus for 1 round.

[Nihb]

One suggestion I've read is to regroup some of the units into swarms, limiting the amount of dices to roll. Pool the HP, use the same initiative, modify the unit's attacks so it's area of effect-based or increase the amount of actions.

That would mean the soldiers would be able to attack more easily, as would the bandits, and leave the leaders as their own units, but helps the team's wizard, and may weaken the rogue's abilities.

Using the same initiative for every unit may help, but it will still be a hell to organize on the battlemat.

Edit:
One thing that makes the decision so difficult in this battle is the fact that the bandits and PCs are lv2, and the soldiers are lv3 to 5 (mostly 3). The players (and the bandit leader, the only lv3 on the "good" side) know the odds, and want to put everything on their side. A head-to-head battle would be disastrous.

Thus, they chose the terrain, a trail in the mountains where they can block retreat routes and control the high ground, hiding behind rocks and trees.

I must deal with stealth, perception and strategy. As much as I like BRC's idea, I can't seem to see it work in this context. I know it's a tricky situation, and I want my players to feel their strategies made a difference.

[Drglenn]

Maybe split it into several encounters as the PCs zip around picking up the pieces where their allies are falling. Then have the last fight be against the enemy commander and his/her bodyguards.

Also I very much reccommend having each type of enemy having one initiative count, not neccessarily moving/attacking together though. I do it for all my encounters, it keeps the initiative order short and helps speed through turns.

Edit:

One thing that makes the decision so difficult in this battle is the fact that the bandits and PCs are lv2, and the soldiers are lv3 to 5 (mostly 3). The players (and the bandit leader, the only lv3 on the "good" side) know the odds, and want to put everything on their side. A head-to-head battle would be disastrous.

That does change things a lot, maybe level everything down/up to 2 (the rules for which are in the DMG, or if you're using the MM3 math, which i strongly reccommend you do, can be extrapolated from here) have the grunts of both sides be minions, the average soldiers be normal guys and the leaders be elites/solos (though remember that despite their name solos aren't meant to be used alone

[BRC]

If you want to focus on the tactical side of the battle, here is what you should do.

First, have the PC's make their plan in the session BEFORE the battle itself. This way you know the plan and can build the encounter around it. If the PC's plan to trigger a rockslide, you can factor that in and have a map all ready.

One of my rules is never have the DM roll against themselves. Hand off control of Bandit NPC's to the Players.

Don't try to keep track of the entire battlefield, rolling for every arrow and sword swing. That will just drive you insane. Split the battlefield into Zones, use the PC's tactics, plus a few rolls and your gut instinct to decide what's going on in those Zones. If the plan is just to hide behind rocks and throw arrows at the bad guys from the high ground, plan accordingly. make it about how much damage the PC's can deal before the soldiers recover from their surprise and make their way up the hill.

[Nihb]

That does change things a lot, maybe level everything down to 2 (the rules for which are in the DMG, or if you're using the MM3 math, which i strongly reccommend you do, can be extrapolated from here) have the grunts of both sides be minions, the average soldiers be normal guys and the leaders be elites/solos (though remember that despite their name solos aren't meant to be used alone

I'm not scaling down the difficulty. As I said, the world is set, and its up to the players to plan and take it on. The units are set, and won't change over the course of the campaign, making it very hard in the beginning, but easier as the story unfolds. If I'm lowering the level, I'm breaking this rule. They are all right with this, and that's why they are plotting this attack, recruiting the bandits and making sure they can do this, on their own, expecting the worse from the convoy.

This encounter is meant to be deadly. Well, bad guys like prisonners, so I'm not planning on total party wipe-out. The players chose a huge risk-high reward attack knowing what they were up to. I want to make sure their victory, if any, is a close one, and one they can pride on.

If you want to focus on the tactical side of the battle, here is what you should do.

First, have the PC's make their plan in the session BEFORE the battle itself. This way you know the plan and can build the encounter around it. If the PC's plan to trigger a rockslide, you can factor that in and have a map all ready.

One of my rules is never have the DM roll against themselves. Hand off control of Bandit NPC's to the Players.

Don't try to keep track of the entire battlefield, rolling for every arrow and sword swing. That will just drive you insane. Split the battlefield into Zones, use the PC's tactics, plus a few rolls and your gut instinct to decide what's going on in those Zones. If the plan is just to hide behind rocks and throw arrows at the bad guys from the high ground, plan accordingly. make it about how much damage the PC's can deal before the soldiers recover from their surprise and make their way up the hill.

I just face-palmed. Handing down the NPCs to the players? So simple, but genious! As for splitting the battlefield, I will try doing so, but it may not be so easy. I'll keep this in mind and I'll figure out something out. I'll be briefed in the next session, about 4 days in-game before the attack. I hope I can split it easily, otherwise, I'll need another way to reduce the amount of dice-rolling.

It is true : everything you say is gold.

[Drglenn]

This encounter is meant to be deadly. Well, bad guys like prisonners, so I'm not planning on total party wipe-out. The players chose a huge risk-high reward attack knowing what they were up to. I want to make sure their victory, if any, is a close one, and one they can pride on.

Then have more enemies or a greater portion of them being elites/solos!
No-one likes missing a lot and when they do hit their arrack are going to be next-to meaningless against the big sacks of hit points that the higher level enemies will be.

[Nihb]

Then have more enemies or a greater portion of them being elites/solos!
No-one likes missing a lot and when they do hit their arrack are going to be next-to meaningless against the big sacks of hit points that the higher level enemies will be.

I heed you. I checked out my units and most of them are easy enough for them to hit. The bandits, though, may be a problem. The first round will be very important. I'll give them some circonstance bonus, and maybe make the bandit leader more important, allowing for better coordination between units, and therefore, some bonus to make them useful.

They will need some situational boni, but I was thinking, what if they could launch a volley of arrows? Would that be outrageous?

[BRC]

I heed you. I checked out my units and most of them are easy enough for them to hit. The bandits, though, may be a problem. The first round will be very important. I'll give them some circonstance bonus, and maybe make the bandit leader more important, allowing for better coordination between units, and therefore, some bonus to make them useful.

They will need some situational boni, but I was thinking, what if they could launch a volley of arrows? Would that be outrageous?

An Arrow Volley would be perfectly reasonable. Heroes of Battle has some good rules for it.

Also, if they're attacking from the high ground, they should get a bonus on ranged attacks.
In addition, they have the liberty of preparing the battlefield. Bandits should be experts and ambushes like this. They could litter the ground with traps ahead of time, even something as simple as shallow pits dug into the hillside could trip up soldiers trying to attack the archers. Caltrops left in the tall grass can be devastating.
Take a hint from Tucker's Kobolds. Send a cart, or some barrels, full of burning straw rolling down the hill. It may not do much damage, but some fire and smoke can panic horses and soldiers alike.

[TomPliss]

to simplify the attack-rolls while keeping a large number of units in the battlefield, you could roll a "number of arrow that hit" (1d6+3, for exemple, modifying if the players or the guard commander buff troops), and keep track of "parts" of HP of the troops (just count quarters of their max HP, when simple arrows and blows from NPC hit them.


I don't think letting the players directly control the NPC is a very good idea, because it the bandits may not be very well organised, or do exactly as the players think. Getting the players to set up their tactics first is a very good thing (as their characters would do it in the game), but having them giving orders to groups of bandits may be fun : "cover this wagon", "don't let them out of there", ...

[tarlison]

the rule i use in 3.5 is really kinda simple but still dont think it will work in 4e bug this is how i do it i make a group of men into one creature and will normally do 1 hd damage per max damage more than 10 so i got 10 bandit , i keep all the defense and attack bonus, so 20 level 10 bandits (if nor minions) will have HD:200 ( 20x10) and since they do 1d4+4 damage max 10 so they do 1 hd damage each since they are 20 ( 20x1) so each successful attack the group does 20 hd damage - 1 hd damage for every 1 killed, sneak attack 2d6 so total is 12 add one more hd damage per bandit during a sneak attack it would be 20 level x (1normal dmg+1sneak attack) = 40 dmg -2 per bandit killed
so a 20 men bandit at level 10 will have the following
Defense:as normal
Attack bonus: as normal
Hit Dice (HD): (20 bandit x 10level) 200 one bandit kill per 10 hd damage(10 because they are level 10)
HD Damage on a successful attack: (20 banditx1 (since max of 1d6+4=10) )= 20 hd damage and will decrease by 1 for every bandit slain
Sneak attacl(HD Damage) on a successful attack:(20 banditsx(1normal damge+1sneak attack dmag)=40 hd damage -2 per bandit killed

just give double damage for area effect powers to simplify things up

but if 4e for elite its HD: levelx2 for solo boss its HD is level x 5
minions will always have an hd level of 1, so 20 minion will only have 20 hd regardless of level its a little confusing hope it helps

hmmm it might be a good idea to have a bonus of +1 to attack bounus if one have twice as much monster in the group +2 if the group have 4 times as much in a group,

Bonus if commanding officer is a Leader type
Int-bonus attack roll = mod
Wis-bonus def =mod
Cha-resist dmg=mod

[TheKoalaNxtDoor]

For the PC's ordering the various bandits around, you could have them make charisma checks, or control a number of bandits equal to their charisma modifier. Some characters might need to get a bonus here, so that a sorceror with 20 charisma isn't ordering everyone around while your tactical warlord is feeling jealous.

[tarlison]

Well they could use diplomacy(persuade and encourage them to fight for glory pride and all those mushy stuff) bluff(give false hope like goimg to valhala if they die fightimg or something) intimidate(make them more afraid of u than dying) well normally those check are only useful when they are losing, bandits are always happy as long as they are winning :-) and if charisma matter u can let tactical warlord use int( he make sense) and str( who wouldn't wanna follow guy in heavy metal and Conan like body charge and use his very big sword cut the poor soldier armor and all in half as if hot knife through warm butter)! Try not to limit it to charisma so as not to make the leader class useless in a mass battle,