Borderlands 2

[GloatingSwine]

So after a looooooooong hiatus from this game I finally beat it. How did everyone handle it when Roland died anyway?

It was just another eyeroll at that point.

I mean literally 90% of the story is trying to tell you how your new character is soooo much better than those old noobs you used to play as.

Take whatsisface, that boss character that they build up to be so super awesome the old vault hunters didn't have a prayer against him and bricked themselves when they found out you were fighting him.

By the time you meet him you're probably tooled and levelled such that he'll be at about a third health before the audio clips telling you what a badass he's supposed to be have finished playing, and all he really is is an ordinary dude in a stupid robot walker that's mostly legs.

[Actana]

It was just another eyeroll at that point.

I mean literally 90% of the story is trying to tell you how your new character is soooo much better than those old noobs you used to play as.

Take whatsisface, that boss character that they build up to be so super awesome the old vault hunters didn't have a prayer against him and bricked themselves when they found out you were fighting him.

By the time you meet him you're probably tooled and levelled such that he'll be at about a third health before the audio clips telling you what a badass he's supposed to be have finished playing, and all he really is is an ordinary dude in a stupid robot walker that's mostly legs.

The Wilhelm bossfight being a pushover is entirely intentional, and a part of Jack's plan. Jack wanted you to take the power core, to feel badass about it so you wouldn't question the suspiciously "powerful" power core Wilhelm had. He wanted you to beat Wilhelm, so he could bomb Sanctuary. And that's exactly what happened.

I believe there were actually some unused ECHO recordings of how Jack poisoned Wilhelm before the fight so he'd be weaker.

[NeoVid]

By the time you meet him you're probably tooled and levelled such that he'll be at about a third health before the audio clips telling you what a badass he's supposed to be have finished playing, and all he really is is an ordinary dude in a stupid robot walker that's mostly legs.

There's been a couple of patches since then that make the Wilhelm fight less obviously rigged in your favor.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't say any of them became "Lame", they all behaved within proper narrative context as Badasses, they just fell victim to Jack's Cutscene Power/narrative neccessity. One of the roles of the Badass NPC is to demonstrate that the Villain is an actual threat.

Except they left the second, very necessary part of that out - making the Villain's power believable. We are all informed loudly and often that Jack curbstomped the VH long ago, but they never once show us in game why Jack is so scary. Every single time he tries to stop us from doing anything (such as deploying the Fast Travel station to Overlook) he fails. Wilhelm at least could be written off as a decoy or trojan horse but even his legitimate attempts to stop the heroes didn't even come close to being scary.

My own personal theory is that Angel, as an "AI" was the one handling the New-U stations. She wouldn't turn them off, possibly lying to Jack each time the Vault Hunters did respawn. She would resist turning them off even though Jack wanted her to, and eventually with her death, Jack was unable to modify the New-U programs anyway. As for Roland... I'll deal with that below. Alternatively, all the New-U stations are hacked. I mean, they're all over the place. It's not like someone wouldn't try.

I too figured Angel had something to do with it... until she died and that excuse went out the window.

Again, Bioshock handled respawning far better without even trying. Better that they had just left it out of the lore entirely than try to explain it half-assed.

[factotum]

Except they left the second, very necessary part of that out - making the Villain's power believable. We are all informed loudly and often that Jack curbstomped the VH long ago, but they never once show us in game why Jack is so scary. Every single time he tries to stop us from doing anything (such as deploying the Fast Travel station to Overlook) he fails.

But the problem is, those scenes have to be possible for the players to beat because this is a video game, not a movie, and something the player simply CAN'T beat is bad game design. (Having badass loaders on the way to Jack be far more effective and scary than Jack himself is also bad game design, but let's not open that particular can of worms again!).

[Triscuitable]

I too figured Angel had something to do with it... until she died and that excuse went out the window.

At that point, Jack wanted to personally kill the Vault Hunters. Still doesn't excuse crummy writing.

[Douglas]

Except they left the second, very necessary part of that out - making the Villain's power believable. We are all informed loudly and often that Jack curbstomped the VH long ago, but they never once show us in game why Jack is so scary. Every single time he tries to stop us from doing anything (such as deploying the Fast Travel station to Overlook) he fails. Wilhelm at least could be written off as a decoy or trojan horse but even his legitimate attempts to stop the heroes didn't even come close to being scary.

Until Angel's death, Jack is always either not serious or has his own most potent tool actively working against him. Though a line about Angel interfering with full deployment in Overlook would have been nice - the force that showed up was oddly puny to be a response to an order from Jack himself to send "everything".

After, Jack focuses everything on getting the Warrior out ASAP, so I'd say you don't really face any serious unhindered opposition from him until the final boss fight. Sure, he does some things to slow you down on the way, but nothing that really has his full attention and focus.

I too figured Angel had something to do with it... until she died and that excuse went out the window.

Again, Bioshock handled respawning far better without even trying. Better that they had just left it out of the lore entirely than try to explain it half-assed.

I can think of a few ways to possibly explain it, but I agree I shouldn't have to come up with my own explanations for something that so obviously raises plot hole issues.

At that point, Jack wanted to personally kill the Vault Hunters. Still doesn't excuse crummy writing.

Jack's announcement where he revokes the bounty on the VH and threatens horrific torturous death to anyone who denies his personal vengeance always struck me as one of the best lines in the game. It drove home perfectly just how thoroughly Jack's view of the VH had changed.

[Tebryn]

I just held the MST3K mantra for the stations. It's only a plot hole if you take the game seriously. The game doesn't take itself seriously so I just figured I wouldn't either. Which made the actual moments where crap goes down all the better. I liked Roland's death and felt Handsome Jack was pretty well written as a villain. He's smarmy, kinda charming and utterly vile in all the right ways. I'm not looking for Tolkien-esque pros in every game I play, especially not a game like Borderlands 2.

[Forrestfire]

Jack's announcement where he revokes the bounty on the VH and threatens horrific torturous death to anyone who denies his personal vengeance always struck me as one of the best lines in the game. It drove home perfectly just how thoroughly Jack's view of the VH had changed.

Yeah, I like it too. The change from Jack being the snarky villain on the echo communicator to someone personally out for revenge was very well-done.

[Psyren]

But the problem is, those scenes have to be possible for the players to beat because this is a video game, not a movie, and something the player simply CAN'T beat is bad game design. (Having badass loaders on the way to Jack be far more effective and scary than Jack himself is also bad game design, but let's not open that particular can of worms again!).

Then they should have come up with a better reason why the original VH couldn't beat him besides "he's just that badass." Because he wasn't.

If it were me, I would have simply had Jack separate and capture some or all of the original 4. That way, one of the reasons they didn't win yet was because they weren't able to work together, like they did when they took down the Destroyer. The Gen 2 VHs would help round up the old gang with Angel's direction, then all 8-10 of you would storm Jack's stronghold together.

The way they did it relies on criminal amounts of Badass Decay.

Until Angel's death, Jack is always either not serious or has his own most potent tool actively working against him. Though a line about Angel interfering with full deployment in Overlook would have been nice - the force that showed up was oddly puny to be a response to an order from Jack himself to send "everything".

I agree, one line from Angel could have made that whole scene 10x better at no cost to the devs.

I just held the MST3K mantra for the stations. It's only a plot hole if you take the game seriously. The game doesn't take itself seriously so I just figured I wouldn't either. Which made the actual moments where crap goes down all the better. I liked Roland's death and felt Handsome Jack was pretty well written as a villain. He's smarmy, kinda charming and utterly vile in all the right ways. I'm not looking for Tolkien-esque pros in every game I play, especially not a game like Borderlands 2.

I'm fine with it being wacky/goofy, except they're trying for too much seriousness and pathos too - the feelings of hopelessness they try and evoke in La Resistance, Jack torturing Tannis (not to mention Angel) and murdering Helena Pierce, Bloodwing's execution etc. Add in backstories like Moxie/Ellie, Tiny Tina and the revelation behind T.K. Baha and you end up with massive amounts of mood whiplash. No, the game clearly wants me to take it seriously so I'm going to.

[Forrestfire]

I just found out that there are dummied-out lines that explain the new-U stations still working.

EDIT: Ooh, I made Ogre

[Sith_Happens]

I figure it's easiest to just think of the New-U stations as having a sort of Shrödinger's canonicity dictated primarily by Rule of Funny (like that one mission where Jack personally pays you to jump off a cliff).

[Psyren]

I just found out that there are dummied-out lines that explain the new-U stations still working.

EDIT: Ooh, I made Ogre

The problem I have with the whole "No one shall kill you but me" justification is that you can still respawn while you're fighting him, and again when fighting the warrior.

But that page you linked did provide me a much funnier and more plausible explanation:

Actually, there is a way you can explain it such that it makes sense that it makes no sense.

Hyperion could be an inefficient cluster**** of a corporation--it could just be that bureaucracy and miles of red tape make it difficult to revoke New-U privileges.

After Roland started the resistance against Jack, Jack probably found out they had New-U access, and started filing the appropriate forms; a few years later, shortly before the beginning of Borderlands 2, they finally are cleared and the original Vault Hunters lose the ability to respawn. He submitted your forms after you defeated Wilhelm, as well, but they never got through because he forgot to fill out box 4 on the second page and failed to submit them notarized and in triplicate.

The Bureaucracy yields for no man, not even Handsome Jack.

This is my headcanon going forward

[Chen]

So, hit 61 and picked up a decent slag Rubi and a DPUH from the Torgue machines. Finished the first and second DLCs (Pirate and Torgue) and going to working Hammerlock's and Tina's now. Feel I should probably try to get a Norfleet for the Fight for your Life moments, though the DPUH works pretty damn well for that it seems. Not sure what other weapons to go for. Currently using Good and Bad Touch along with a Lasceaux. I could use a good sniper rifle but not sure if I should farm a Lyuda or something else.

[Triscuitable]

I figure it's easiest to just think of the New-U stations as having a sort of Shrödinger's canonicity dictated primarily by Rule of Funny (like that one mission where Jack personally pays you to jump off a cliff).

Gearbox said they're not canon, and that mission is non-canon (and a mistake; Burch says he shouldn't have done that).

[Sith_Happens]

Gearbox said they're not canon, and that mission is non-canon (and a mistake; Burch says he shouldn't have done that).

It was pretty darn funny though.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Again, Bioshock handled respawning far better without even trying. Better that they had just left it out of the lore entirely than try to explain it half-assed.

It wasn't that half-assed honestly.

The problem I have with the whole "No one shall kill you but me" justification is that you can still respawn while you're fighting him, and again when fighting the warrior.

Well how's Jack supposed to remove you from the New-U station during that fight? Angel's dead, remember? And there's, literally, no one at Hyperion who wants Jack leading the company who would willingly turn of the New-U stations when there's an extremely credible chance the people they'd be screwing over could kill Jack.

Additionally, this is the man who spent a long time just stabbing Lilith over and over again because she could regenerate from it. That indulges in petty acts of murder and spite just because he can, a sociopath that hates your guts...Do you really think he'd just want to kill you once when he has it at his disposal to kill you painfully over and over again until he gets bored?

This is my headcanon going forward

This is less head-canon then you'd think! Audio logs, extra material, etc. have a lot of subtle hints that nobody in a position of power in Hyperion is happy with Handsome Jack in charge...cause he's a sociopath and has people's families killed just for disagreeing with him. They're simply terrified of him (the constant flow of money he's brought in by mining eridium takes some of the sting out of it too) and have no idea how to handle someone like him. There's even hints that his Vice President, the guy he treats like a butler, is secretly feeding the Resistance information and undermining Jack's efforts as best he can. You can imagine some of the braver executives (or the more bitter ones) are doing the same as well.

...So yeah, there's actually bureaucratic nonsense working against Jack, just not as...obvious as that. The more you know!

Gearbox said they're not canon, and that mission is non-canon (and a mistake; Burch says he shouldn't have done that).

Gearbox should retract that statement, cause the New-U's are more then adequately explained, that mission is awesome and showcases just how bad Jack is in that he'll pay someone to kill themselves...also, it's hilarious.

[Triscuitable]

Gearbox should retract that statement, cause the New-U's are more then adequately explained, that mission is awesome and showcases just how bad Jack is in that he'll pay someone to kill themselves...also, it's hilarious.

In that case, I invite you to explain why Shep Sanders, Helena Pierce, and other notable characters aren't still alive.

[scienceguy8]

In that case, I invite you to explain why Shep Sanders, Helena Pierce, and other notable characters aren't still alive.

Couldn't afford the premiums.

[Anteros]

Maybe not everyone wants a digital reconstruction of themselves running around after they die? I know I wouldn't.

[factotum]

In that case, I invite you to explain why Shep Sanders, Helena Pierce, and other notable characters aren't still alive.

In the case of Helena Pierce the new-U also begs the question of, why didn't she get a backup version of herself restored when she got horribly mutilated?

[Triscuitable]

I meant a good, logical reason that isn't marred by guesses. A down-to-Earth reason for why everyone who dies (including those from Hyperion) except for the Vault Hunters doesn't come back. The New-Us aren't canon. This is already established. I want to hear from you guys why you think they could be.

Couldn't afford the premiums.

Have to admit, I gave a hearty laugh.

[Anteros]

For one thing it's expensive. I don't think most people on Pandora have thousands of dollars laying around. For another there's a throw away line that in order to use them you have to waive your ability to reproduce...which most people are probably not willing to do. Especially considering that most people don't go around every day expecting to die. Finally, even if you do use them...you're still dead. Sure, it brings a copy/clone of you back after you're dead, but why should I care about that? I'm still dead.

[Forrestfire]

Given the supernatural elements, I'd say there's a good chance that souls exist in Borderlands, which would solve the "the new you is only a clone aspect."

[Sith_Happens]

For another there's a throw away line that in order to use them you have to waive your ability to reproduce...which most people are probably not willing to do.

On the other hand, for a lot of people that's probably a bonus.

[Psyren]

Well how's Jack supposed to remove you from the New-U station during that fight?

Turning it off maybe?

It's just derptastic to me that he doesn't seem to know or care how his most dangerous liabilities even work. A simple throw-away line from Angel ("I've locked you into the New-U network; even Jack won't be able to revoke your access for a while. Please stop my father. Good luck.") or even from Jack himself ("I haven't been able to override my dearest daughter's lockdown on the New-U Network yet, but don't worry - that just means I get to enjoy feeding you jackholes your own entrails repeatedly for a very loooong time. Or at least while my engineers figure this out.") would have cleared this lore issue up instantly at minimal cost.

*In the background, the Head Engineer complains that Angel has completely FUBAR the New-U authenticator and pleads to see his family again, implying they are chained to the wheel until they can find a way to revoke your access. Jack responds by feigning sympathy, shooting him in the head (thus delaying the process even further) and promoting a new Head Engineer.*

Oh, and while we're on the subject - any reason they don't work for HIM? This too could be explained by Angel, if they cared to.

Angel's dead, remember? And there's, literally, no one at Hyperion who wants Jack leading the company who would willingly turn of the New-U stations when there's an extremely credible chance the people they'd be screwing over could kill Jack.

If Jack had New-U access, he would have deconstructed shortly after the killing blow. They may reveal that he does indeed come back, but he's certainly not attached to the same New-U you get to use at the entrance to the Warrior's chamber.

This is less head-canon then you'd think!

It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, indeed.

That butler guy honestly sounded more like he'd be the next villain to me. Very quiet and dangerous type.

In that case, I invite you to explain why Shep Sanders, Helena Pierce, and other notable characters aren't still alive.

This at least is easily explained - they never had New-U access because they never interacted with Angel. She had no reason to care about Helena or Shep or any of the other b-listers because they never had a chance at beating Jack or opening the first Vault.

The orginial VH meanwhile had theirs revoked, hence Roland's death. (Lilith's heal-stab-heal routine is due to Eridium restoring her, not the New-U.)

[Chen]

The simplest way to explain the whole New-U fiasco, is to accept Gearbox saying they are not cannon, and accepting that the one "kill yourself" mission is just one of the many ways in which the game breaks the 4th wall for a humorous effect.

[Triscuitable]

The simplest way to explain the whole New-U fiasco, is to accept Gearbox saying they are not cannon, and accepting that the one "kill yourself" mission is just one of the many ways in which the game breaks the 4th wall for a humorous effect.

Well of course, but that wasn't the point of the discussion. The point was to see if anyone here could come up with a well-planned reason for why they could be canonical. I liked a lot of these.

[Psyren]

While we're on the subject, is "Angel" truly dead? She did become a true AI, so I would expect some form of her to linger in the network, and that's not counting whatever paranormal shenanigans they can justify due to her being a Siren.

I predict her lingering into the next installment, as a ghost in the shell.

[BRC]

While we're on the subject, is "Angel" truly dead? She did become a true AI, so I would expect some form of her to linger in the network, and that's not counting whatever paranormal shenanigans they can justify due to her being a Siren.

I predict her lingering into the next installment, as a ghost in the shell.

She was never an AI, she was just hooked up to a computer system and had lots of access (Plus "Phase Shift"). She was 100% NI.