What is the line between "plot hook" and "railroading"?

[Morithias]

Apparently according to one of the members on the forum, if you run a campaign in a school and the teachers gives the PC's an assignment it's railroading. Or at least the BAD kind of railroading.

But that comes to annoy me for many reasons namely the thread title.

Where do you draw the line between rail roading and plot hooks? What exactly is the difference?

I mean they say rail roading is bad period, but what happens when you go off the rails and the DM goes "okay we'll stop 5 hours early tonight because you want to be delinquents I'm not good at improv and I have to write a plot for what you want to do"

I mean a DM clearly can't prepare for EVERY occasion.

So what's the line between "plot hook" and "rail road"?

[Jack of Spades]

Unfortunately, the difference between those terms is often just which side of the screen one is on. People can be asinine that way.

But, for actual differences, it's pretty simple. Are you telling your players what their characters do? If so, that's probably more railroading than it is dropping a hook.

Getting an assignment is not railroading, it is dropping a hook. No one is ever *required* to do an assignment. If your character disobeys direct orders from a bona fide superior, they should expect consequences. *******s will call those consequences railroading, but it's really just letting the world respond to the character.

Dropping a hook is being told or asked to do something in character, or being exposed to situations that demand action from the characters. Railroading is telling the characters their actions or responses. That includes constructing an encounter in which there is only one action that will produce any sort of successful result. If you can't deal with the players having different courses of actions than you expected, then you'll probably end up railroading more often than dropping hooks.

What I'm trying to say is, dropping hooks instead of railroading is about letting your players hold their own reins and being able to use the 'Yes, and...' rule.

[Morithias]

Makes sense. "Yes and" Rule? May you please explain that one to me, cause that's a new one?

[Jack of Spades]

Makes sense. "Yes and" Rule? May you please explain that one to me, cause that's a new one?

The 'Yes, and...' rule is an improv thing. Basically, the idea is that when you are telling a story with others, those others will be bringing different ideas than you to the table. The idea is that you should say 'Yes, and...' to these ideas instead of saying no. It's about encouraging those around you to bring their unique perspectives and training yourself to embrace those ideas instead of meeting them with a brick wall. It's pretty much the main thing that separates improv from dictation.

It's a nearly essential rule for running a game. The players will always go against your expectations, and the 'Yes, and...' rule is simply saying that you should roll with those punches instead of telling the players their cool new out-of-left-field idea just doesn't work because you weren't prepared for it.

[nedz]

The difference is about something called player agency. Does the player(s) make the decisions about what they do, and are those decisions meaningful ?

A plot hook is an option the players can explore, or ignore.

Railroading is where the player's decisions don't matter. The DM is telling a story and the PCs are following a script. A small amount of this is inevitable, especially around getting the party together at the beginning. "You all meet in an inn" (or whatever) is technically railroading, but it is of no consequence.

Its really about who decides what the characters do.

[Morithias]

I see. Hmm..I'll have to work on my skills some then and incorporate this into my plans.

[Malak'ai]

Basically what nedz said.
If the players have the choice to go along with the hook or ignore it, that's fine, they just have to be able to accept any and all consequences if they do choose to ignore it.
If the players have no choice what so ever and HAVE to follow along, that's railroading.
The only real (IMO) exception to the having no choice (or only having one possible choice) is if it is something that would result in the PC's dying, eg: the PC's are taken prisoner and are going to be executed the next day unless they escape somehow. Yes there is a choice here, escape or die... But what player (unless they are wanting a new character or are leaving the group) is really going to choose the latter?

[Anxe]

Players have a responsibility to follow plot hooks. If the DM dangles a plot hook and the players decide to do something random to spite the DM, they're being a little rude. However, if the DM has dangled this plot hook twice already and they're still ignoring it, then its railroading. The players are no longer interested in the Temple of Sakom. They want to explore the jungle.

Now, the smart DM will put the Temple of Sakom in the jungle and replace all the undead guardians with a tribe of apemen with the exact same statistics. No need to construct a new adventure and the DM and the players are happy.

So... plot hooks become railroading when the players repeatedly refuse them. I've had it happen in my campaigns, sometimes the entire campaign trail is uninteresting to the players. It's sad to see so much work not be used, but I can always come up with something else or reuse it.

How I avoid the players going off the rails is to give them tons of choices. There's probably about ten different plot hooks for them to follow in my current campaign. I basically have statted out everything in my campaign.

[Mastikator]

A plot hook is something the players decide to get caught by, a railroad is something the players have to deliberately derail. It's about players making decisions about options not presented by the GM, and the GM working either with the players to get them where they want to go, or to get them where the GM wants to go.

[Knaight]

Apparently according to one of the members on the forum, if you run a campaign in a school and the teachers gives the PC's an assignment it's railroading. Or at least the BAD kind of railroading.

That's a strawman position. The evidence I used for it being railroading was not a teacher giving the PC an assignment in that context, it was you explicitly saying that it was nice that the game made it easy to railroad and using that as an example of how.

I mean they say rail roading is bad period, but what happens when you go off the rails and the DM goes "okay we'll stop 5 hours early tonight because you want to be delinquents I'm not good at improv and I have to write a plot for what you want to do"

I generally avoid this problem by being a reasonably competent GM, and not trying to force the players into a scripted plot simply because of sheer ineptitude regarding both improv and planning. It's not that hard to plan in a fashion that can handle contingencies, and improvisation is really not that difficult. Similarly, I generally avoid playing with people who are trying to tell their story and are unable to deal with even the slightest amount of player input that involves going off the rails.

To be honest, I've never even seen this in a new player. It isn't something that needs to be planned around, just like I don't specifically plan around it taking people a long time to see whether the number they rolled is higher than another number, or whether their ability to speak in their native language somehow vanishes when they start gaming. Sure, all of these problems are theoretically possible, with an ineptitude in storytelling, an extreme problem with numbers, and extreme stage fright potentially causing them, but the probabilities are so vanishingly small that they aren't worth worrying about.

So what's the line between "plot hook" and "rail road"?

Plot hooks can be interacted with in multiple ways. They can be ignored, but more than that there are multiple approaches to interacting with them. Railroads, meanwhile, are strictly linear. Essentially, plot hooks are mechanisms by which the GM and players can all contribute to the game and story, and railroading is a mechanism by which the GM shoves their personal story the players aren't involved in down the player's throats.

[LordErebus12]

Apparently according to one of the members on the forum, if you run a campaign in a school and the teachers gives the PC's an assignment it's railroading. Or at least the BAD kind of railroading.

So what's the line between "plot hook" and "rail road"?

under the same definition, can you call the main questline (the assignment) in a game like skyrim as being an example of railroading? can't it be simply ignored and turned off? can the players simply ignore the quest and pursuit other things? leave the school and continue off to explore the world, etc.

I think if this assignment is within reason, and they are playing in a game where the campaign is in a school, then they should understand that assignments will happen and if they wish to graduate, they will complete them to the best of their ability. as in real life.

[SowZ]

A lot of GMs, especially newer ones, think it is their responsibility to come up with a really cool story and write it like a book so they give their players something interesting, then get frustrated when it doesn't happen and get afraid it won't be cinematic enough or whatever if the 'rails' aren't followed. Most of the time it isn't a power trip but not having the right kind of experience.

In my games, I try to make cool NPCs and some neat background stuff but as for specific encounters and such? I plan those one session at a time in reaction to the things the players did last session. The game I am running right now has had the players fall in with a major faction in the world leading to a major attack by said faction on another major faction as well as an accidental PC bombing of the worlds capital city and right 'now' is exploring an alternate reality apocalypse setting. Not to mention countless mini-adventures, rescue attempts, attacks on enemies, recon missions gone bad, etc. etc. NONE of which was planned for or expected by me. It all just happened.

BUT I do have a major underlying plot/end of the world threat and a lot of NPCs written. It isn't sandbox, by any means, there is definitely one threat the PCs are expected to handle. That much is clear to everyone. How they go about it, though, and who they interact with/make friends with/trouble they cause along the way is entirely up to them and it seems to work well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What is the line between plot hook and railroading? Thin and subjective, that's what. Some players need to be given more direction than others while some of those others resent being presented with too few options and will ignore them all out of spite.

You're not doing anything wrong until the players' input is completely meaningless.

Make this your "DM's mantra" and you should do fine:

It's our story, not my story.

Check out the post I've linked at the bottom of my sig for a good outline, imo, on how to setup a campaign. Scaling those guidlines down to make a school and the city surrounding it should work out pretty good.

Remember that when you use a piece of fiction as the inspiration for a campaign, that you're creating a world with similar characters and themes, not trying to retell the story in the work itself.

[LordErebus12]

Make this your "DM's mantra" and you should do fine:

It's our story, not my story.

i agree with every single year of my DM'ing career and every fiber of my being.

the world is a big place, sometimes other things catch their attentions better. try making it cross their paths enough and maybe they will take the bite, then its a hook, not a railroad. if they dont take the bite, let them continue on with what they are doing then try a different way to get them interested in the main plot. time and patience, as well as some careful negotiations with the party out of character so they know what you want from them, that way, in game they can make a better attempt at working with the story you present.

[Mistwing]

This discussion cuts down the the very core of my DMing. The "Yes and.." rule (I call it "say yes") is my bible.

Yet i have little to add, to avoid far too long rants about things not entierly related. But I have one thing I need to note:

Unlike what many people say here, railroading is not telling players what their characters do. That's... no. That's just being a horrible DM. Even good DM's can railroad. Hell, railroading can be a good thing in certain campeigns or adventures.

Railroading is when you cut away all options and chances to go off the planned track. A character does something that would cut off the plot? you stop 'em. What you planned is going to happen and anything else will, inexplicably if need be, simply not be a ultimately viable option.

So really, a plot hook is about making the players want to or the characters be motivated enough to go in the direction you want. To nudge and lead rather than to drag the characters along. Now, Railroading when in the hands of a good DM running a very closed in adventure isn't all that brash. But in general comparison a ploot hook is a far more delicate yet, if used well, just as viable way to progress the plot. It' drags the PC's in if they bite it.

Thus the name.

[Morithias]

Snip

Maybe I need to read Railroading again, but when I said that line I was being semi-jesting. I just meant it would be easy to keep the campaign on line. If I need her to get more healing potions or better armor, just have a teacher assign it. Not complex.

I really need to practice using the blue text again.

[valadil]

Apparently according to one of the members on the forum, if you run a campaign in a school and the teachers gives the PC's an assignment it's railroading. Or at least the BAD kind of railroading.

Homework is a plot hook. You can decide to not do your homework and get an interesting story out of it when you have to explain to your teacher why you didn't do the assignment.

Railroading is when your parents lock you in your room until your homework is done.

[LordErebus12]

Homework is a plot hook. Railroading is when your parents lock you in your room until your homework is done.

those feels...

[Morithias]

Lucky it's a boarding school. No parents around to do anything. Just the warblade, and her healer companion with a superhero complex.

[Knaight]

Railroading is when your parents lock you in your room until your homework is done.

This depends somewhat on whether you have windows and how high above ground level your room is.

[valadil]

This depends somewhat on whether you have windows and how high above ground level your room is.

You and I have different ideas about the meaning of the word "lock" .

[DabblerWizard]

I think railroading comes in a couple forms.

(1) Players' / PC behavior is restricted. Players are only allowed to react to a situation in DM approved ways.

This might look like the players being forced to accept one action, the method the DM liked. Or players might be allowed to "try" other options, but all these others have negative consequences that the preferred option doesn't.

E.G. The DM wants the players to slay the dragon with a particular special weapon. The wizard might find his magic not working at all. Or players are punished / "warned" that killing the dragon a different way will forfeit their prize because of [some restricting explanation].

One way this might not be railroading: The special weapon does extra damage, but other weapons can at least take down much of the dragon's health, or incapacitate it, or weaken it, etc.


(2) The outcome remains the same no matter what the players do.

This can be railroading even if players are allowed to take on a variety of actions.

E.G. The DM has predetermined that the King will deny the players' prize money no matter how well they complete their task.

Sometimes a solid and reasonable plot can counteract this. If the King's actions are part of a larger purpose other than just messing with the players, this can be acceptable.


The above two kinds of railroading really don't have much to do with plot hooks. This third kind does though.


(3) The DM presents a quest / plot hook to the players.

This turns into railroading by violating either (1) or (2). E.G. there's "nothing else to do" besides this quest, all other quests are intentionally unappealing or inaccessible to the characters, or the King will end up doing X, Y, Z, no matter what the players do.

This kind of plot hook railroading can be avoided by allowing for player input in how combat / plot scenarios resolve, and by allowing the story to develop based on player actions.

[scurv]

A teacher giving assignments is life. duh!
Now if the char's have established a trend for skipping assignments I can see how forcing the players to do one could be railroading.

Personally I would thank them, If they are in a school and refused to do an assignment...options for DM amusement may of just happened! Sorry I am a sadist.

[Kyberwulf]

This, A plot hook is a device to tell the players, "Hey something is going on in the world."

Railroading is what the player feels when he has to deal with ignoring the logical conclusions that comes from ..well ignoring the plot hook.

[Jay R]

Unfortunately, the real answer is this:

A plot hook is railroading that the players don't object to. Railroading is a plot hook that they object to.

These aren't well-defined terms, and "railroading" is used anytime a player wants to complain about any decision made by the DM or an NPC.

[valadil]

A plot hook is railroading that the players don't object to. Railroading is a plot hook that they object to.

I completely disagree. It's not whether the object to the plot hook that indicates the presence of the railroad. It's what the GM does with the objection. If they decide to leave the dungeon and go pick flowers, some GMs will let them. Others will tell them to play the damn dungeon. Many will come up with the reason why they can't leave - cave-in keeps you down there, guards are up top, etc. The latter two options are railroads, but the final option is probably more palatable to most groups.

[nedz]

Real example

The party hits a house run by some gangsters, blow up some complex piece of equipment, bug out and split up. This causes a demon to be released into the city. Some of the PC's know about this, others don't. They meet back at a safe house, ...

Example of railroading:

An NPC handler, with perfect information, orders the PCs back to deal with the demon.

Example of non-railroading:

The PCs meet up, share information, and decide to go back and deal with the demon - or not.

[Lord Tyger]

Real example

The party hits a house run by some gangsters, blow up some complex piece of equipment, bug out and split up. This causes a demon to be released into the city. Some of the PC's know about this, others don't. They meet back at a safe house, ...

Example of railroading:

An NPC handler, with perfect information, orders the PCs back to deal with the demon.

Example of non-railroading:

The PCs meet up, share information, and decide to go back and deal with the demon - or not.

But even if the NPC shows up and orders them, are they reasonably able to just disobey him?

[Water_Bear]

I'd say the Plot Hook v Railroading line really has to do with the number of realistic options the Players have to do something other than what the DM wants.

So, for example, Snake Plissken in Escape From New York is (at least initially) on the quintessential quest railroad; if he refuses to go into New York he will be killed, the only foreseeable chance for him to escape is by successfully completing his mission, and he'll explode anyway if he doesn't succeed in 24 hours.

On the other end of the scale, The A Team (TV not Movie) are the ultimate example of a party which follows every plot hook but is never railroaded. They don't have to help anyone, but they never turn down a chance to do so even when it puts them in danger of death or recapture by the Army.

Essentially, Plot Hooks are suggestions while Railroading is compulsory. This isn't a value judgement; Escape From New York and The A Team are both awesome, and both central to our modern understanding of the action genre. But in general, as RPGs are collaborative storytelling, giving the Players more freedom is usually a good thing.

[Menteith]

Where do you draw the line between rail roading and plot hooks? What exactly is the difference?

Railroading is fundamentally about lacking agency. In the situation described, I'd say it's pretty clearly not railroading - it makes sense for a teacher to give a student an assignment without the world of the game. If the player really doesn't want to do the assignment, they don't need to, but there will be consequences (just as in real life) for their actions. Logical consequences and events occurring due to player choice != railroading. If the player "wasn't allowed" to refuse the assignment, or the DM simply told them "You do this because I say so", I'd call it railroading.

As long as the player has a meaningful choice, I wouldn't call it railroading.