[Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

[ThiagoMartell]

Since we are complaining about the New 52:

• What the hell have they done with Tim Drake and Wally West?
• Did Stephanie Brown even exist?
• I remember Starfire mentioning Donna Troy. How the hell does she fit the new Wonder Woman mythos?
• Why is Cassie a THIEF, for crying out loud?!
• The Red Robin suit is mind numbingly ugly
• Why did they undo the most defining moment in Barbara Gordon's career?
• Before 52, why did they even BRING BRUCE BACK?!

You know, editors and authors keep complaining about how fans don't accept new characters taking the place of old ones and all that crap. DC had successfully pulled that out with several characters - Wally West was Flash for ~20 years, Cassie Cain was finally a Batgirl that has it's own defining traits instead of being "Robin, but a girl" even **** Grayson becoming Batman was widely well accepted. Then... they undo everything, even reviving a character that has been dead for 20 years to do so. Oh, and that character is responsible for all of the other changes, in-universe. Thanks, DC, you have caused me to hate Barry Allen.

[Man on Fire]

@Jayngfet - have you ever seen a comics book script? because I have read scripts from Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Craig Kyle & Christ Yost, Brian Bendis and others and I must tell you - they are not, in fact, the great, ultra-detailed desribtions of everything on every panel, the levels of details vary, sometimes even Alan Moore, who puts horrid amount of details, just says "there is a courtroom full of superheroes. Draw whoever comes to your mind, have a blast with it" and that's it. Writers give a lot to artist's imagination. Comics are not some sort of labor works for artists, where writers control everything.

[Jayngfet]

@Jayngfet - have you ever seen a comics book script? because I have read scripts from Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Craig Kyle & Christ Yost, Brian Bendis and others and I must tell you - they are not, in fact, the great, ultra-detailed desribtions of everything on every panel, the levels of details vary, sometimes even Alan Moore, who puts horrid amount of details, just says "there is a courtroom full of superheroes. Draw whoever comes to your mind, have a blast with it" and that's it. Writers give a lot to artist's imagination. Comics are not some sort of labor works for artists, where writers control everything.

I have. While they tend to vary, most of the one's I've seen don't just say on every panel "do whatever the hell you want". There is, after all, a BIG difference between closeup emotional reactions and large group shots.

Considering that, as we already estabilished, apparently your Shinning Knight and Demon Knights Shinnign Knight are two different people I have to say that people were saying the same about John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, Wally West, Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Bronw and each of them has grew on those fans. It's kinda har to take these

If we're going by New 52, then all those characters have become either Awful or non entities.

Or at least, that's what I'm assuming. This statement is so badly worded and cuts off at the end so I have a hard time deciphering what it is you're actually saying.

• What the hell have they done with Tim Drake and Wally West?
• Did Stephanie Brown even exist?
• I remember Starfire mentioning Donna Troy. How the hell does she fit the new Wonder Woman mythos?
• Why is Cassie a THIEF, for crying out loud?!
• The Red Robin suit is mind numbingly ugly
• Why did they undo the most defining moment in Barbara Gordon's career?
• Before 52, why did they even BRING BRUCE BACK?!

You know, editors and authors keep complaining about how fans don't accept new characters taking the place of old ones and all that crap. DC had successfully pulled that out with several characters - Wally West was Flash for ~20 years, Cassie Cain was finally a Batgirl that has it's own defining traits instead of being "Robin, but a girl" even **** Grayson becoming Batman was widely well accepted. Then... they undo everything, even reviving a character that has been dead for 20 years to do so. Oh, and that character is responsible for all of the other changes, in-universe. Thanks, DC, you have caused me to hate Barry Allen.

Tim now a failed athalete who couldn't even get any actual information on Batman, and isn't even Tim DRAKE anymore.

Wally doesn't exist anymore, even though Bart does for random unexplained reasons.

Steph is so gone it isn't even funny. I think by this point it's impossible to spin that situation in a way that DOESN'T make DC editorial look like petty morons playing favorites.

Donna can't really exist without raising a whole lot of questions. But then I think Starfire remembers(or Roy remembers for her) teaming up with Beastboy and Cyborg and that raises a whole bunch of continuity issues on it's own.

Same reason Guy Gardner is a failed cop. Someone probably thought it was more exciting and nobody was able to stop him.

The Red Robin suit would be better if it wasn't some weird inbetween for his regular Robin suit and the old Red Robin suit. It keeps all the busy looking details and none of the elegance.

Probably the same reason they undid all of Steph and Cass's stuff and are putting Barb in way more stuff than they did either of them: To assert the idea of Barbra Gordon as being this super important "one true batgirl" thing. Hence why she gets to make appearances in a bunch of other books and have her own team in addition to an ongoing.

Bruce coming back struck me as an always planned thing nobody thought wasn't happening.
It's a sad thing when you can't convince someone an A list character can die but there you go.

[Man on Fire]

I have. While they tend to vary, most of the one's I've seen don't just say on every panel "do whatever the hell you want". There is, after all, a BIG difference between closeup emotional reactions and large group shots.

Still doesn't change the fact that I doubt Paul Cornell gave some ultra-detailed describtion - he seems one of those writers who allows his artist a lot of creative freedom.

Ad quite frankly, I don't even consider that page to be a screw up. For me everything flew naturally in that scene and body language was subtle as on place. Sorry, but for me you're nitpicking for the sake of proving you're right.

If we're going by New 52, then all those characters have become either Awful or non entities.

Or at least, that's what I'm assuming. This statement is so badly worded and cuts off at the end so I have a hard time deciphering what it is you're actually saying.

I was trying to say I cannot take those complaints seriously, because of how many other replacement characters became succesfull. Somehow I ate last few words.

Seriously, tell me, why should I take seriously people complaing that 'they replaced Shinning Knight with transsexual woman"? Before them there were people complaining that "they replaced Cassandra Cain with a bimbo", before them people complaining "they gave Excalibur to Muslim woman". Before them popular complaint was "they replaced Ted Kord with mexican teenager", before - "they replaced Barbara Gordon with Asian killer", even before - "they replaced Hal Jordan with a new guy". Currently all of them won the crowd over to the point that what was once fan demand - return of the original characters to their roles - is meet with fan outrage.

And I still haven't seen a single good old Shinning Knight story. I should be asking for good stories with him that would require him to be square-jawed, bodybuilding-type blue-eyed blonde-haired white guy, but I think finding any good story with him will be hard enough for you guys.

[Kalmarvho]

Since we are complaining about the New 52:

• What the hell have they done with Tim Drake and Wally West?
• Did Stephanie Brown even exist?
• I remember Starfire mentioning Donna Troy. How the hell does she fit the new Wonder Woman mythos?
• Why is Cassie a THIEF, for crying out loud?!
• The Red Robin suit is mind numbingly ugly
• Why did they undo the most defining moment in Barbara Gordon's career?
• Before 52, why did they even BRING BRUCE BACK?!

Those are all rather minor problems that are symptomatic of a bigger issue: that editorial has no idea what it's doing.

On the other hand, this is what Dan Didio has to say about the concept of editorial mandate:

Let’s just discuss the role of the editor for one second. One expression that I find humorous is “editorial mandate.” I feel that expression gets thrown around a great deal. The role of the editor is to assemble and be responsible for whatever project they are in charge of. Whatever talent they hire, that is an editorial mandate. They choose to hire that talent. The amount of control they put on that talent, whether they allow them to work completely free of any editorial notes, or not, is an editorial mandate, because that’s what the editor chooses to do. If the editor decides to give notes, that’s an editorial mandate, because that’s what the editor chooses to do, because he or she, at the end of the day, is responsible for that position.

So anything that winds up on a page, whether a note is given, when a phone call is made – anything that is assembled on from any member of the talent – from the person that writes it, to the art team, to the colorist, to the letterer, to the people working on final production – it’s all editorially controlled. That is our job.

So when you say “editorial mandate,” please understand that whatever book you hold in your hand, at the end of the day, is there because of an editorial mandate to create that book. End of story.

I find it humorous because it gives the impression that no one is doing anything, other than trafficking paper. We are not in our positions to traffic paper. We are here to put out the best product possible, and everyone works very hard to do that. To say that we don’t do anything is an insult to every one of the members of my staff, and I prefer that everyone realize that, if a fan is holding a product in their hands, there is an editor in charge whose job it was to make sure that product reached them. That’s what our job is.

And how it’s assembled is the choice of the individuals who are working to the best of their ability as they are assembling that book.

[ThiagoMartell]

Tim now a failed athalete who couldn't even get any actual information on Batman, and isn't even Tim DRAKE anymore.

Wait, what?! DAMN YOU DC!!!

[Cheesegear]

This is relevant. It seems that not a lot of people are impressed with New 52 and are jumping ship.

[ManuelSacha]

I didn't get that feeling.

However, as an X-Men fan, I do get the feeling that after giving the Claremonts, the Morrisons and the Whedons a chance, we're going back to the soul-less, marketable comics making.

And that's terrible.

[Jayngfet]

This is relevant. It seems that not a lot of people are impressed with New 52 and are jumping ship.

Yeah, but it's important to keep in mind even that information shows that the market is rapidly shrinking. Just checking around on other sites confirm that the averages are dropping.

Events are ...probably going to stop working, at least on a small scale and certainly for DC. I mean Green Lantern has become an event conga line, and we already know ahead of time that right after the third army gets beat a NEW SUPER BAD GUY shows up, beats up the most powerful lanterns, introduces a new guy, and the whole cycle repeats again.

Comics are dying, quickly. No amount of reboots can help.

[ThiagoMartell]

Comics are not dying. The way DC and Marvel do stuff is flawed, that is all. The biggest problem is distribution, after all.

[Jayngfet]

Comics are not dying. The way DC and Marvel do stuff is flawed, that is all. The biggest problem is distribution, after all.

Yeah, and the distribution goes through Diamond. Diamond in turn is the distributor for the bulk of comics companies even outside the big two. Diamond pretty much has a monopoly on the whole thing outside maybe newsstand copies and market isle digests like Archie.

It's not just Marvel and DC so much as it is an industry wide issue.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yeah, and the distribution goes through Diamond. Diamond in turn is the distributor for the bulk of comics companies even outside the big two. Diamond pretty much has a monopoly on the whole thing outside maybe newsstand copies and market isle digests like Archie.

It's not just Marvel and DC so much as it is an industry wide issue.

There is a crisis about american comics in the US. That's it.
Comics are not dying, because comics are a lot bigger than Marvel, DC and whatever else Diamond distributes.
Turma da Mônica Jovem sells 400k copies every month. One Piece sells around 30kk every year. No, comics are not dying.

[Avilan the Grey]

There is a crisis about american comics in the US. That's it.
Comics are not dying, because comics are a lot bigger than Marvel, DC and whatever else Diamond distributes.
Turma da Mônica Jovem sells 400k copies every month. One Piece sells around 30kk every year. No, comics are not dying.

Heh. DC rather reminds me of Nokia (the cell phone company). Every year for the last... 15 years they have released a new model that nobody wants, with operating systems nobody likes, and loses more and more money. Yet they claim to do thorough market surveys before releasing each model...

DC does the same thing. Their reboots and retcons come at a closer and closer interval, now nearly down to a once-a-year basis. Yet they fail to attract new readers and bleeds old ones at an increasing rate.

I suspect, for both companies (Nokia and DC) panic has started to set in and they nolonger has the ability to think straight, so to speak.

[Jayngfet]

There is a crisis about american comics in the US. That's it.
Comics are not dying, because comics are a lot bigger than Marvel, DC and whatever else Diamond distributes.
Turma da Mônica Jovem sells 400k copies every month. One Piece sells around 30kk every year. No, comics are not dying.

American comics in the US is, unfortunatley, what most people generally think of as "comics". It's what the thread was based around, it's what everyone here has been talking about almost exclusivley, and it's been the subject of pretty much every thread labeled as "comics".

It's unfair, but that's how it goes. We aren't usually talking about Manga or French stuff or Webcomics, even though all those have amazing work.

Also, speaking of "not thinking straight", has anyone else seen the leaked bits of Avengers Arena yet? It's been a joke among the marvel fandom for a while, but actually seeing a few of the actual panels and looking at who gets killed off in what way makes it very clear exactly how bad everything must be with Marvel. I mean if nothing else, they're hiring writers who suck that badly at dialogue and internal consistency.

[Man on Fire]

That's not quite fair to judge the company based on one comics that has suckiness encoded deep in it's premise. I'm for one, am waiting for Young Avengers.

Also, what really pisses me off:
1) DC fired Gail Simone. Via E-MAIL! E! MAIL! Seriously. I hated her Batgirl run, but c'mon, she deserves more.
2) Also, DC apparently fired Karen Berger from the position of Vertigo's editor-in-chief. Person who helped bring to life Sandman, Lucifer, Fables, American Vampire, DMZ and Hellblazer

It seems that after fans demanded them to hire more women Dan Didio's answer was to fire all remaining women. And considering what ridiculous amount of over-exposure Barbara Gordon and John Constantine are getting, he tries to show he don't need people who were vital in making them popular in the first place a little too much.

[Aotrs Commander]

Also, speaking of "not thinking straight", has anyone else seen the leaked bits of Avengers Arena yet? It's been a joke among the marvel fandom for a while, but actually seeing a few of the actual panels and looking at who gets killed off in what way makes it very clear exactly how bad everything must be with Marvel. I mean if nothing else, they're hiring writers who suck that badly at dialogue and internal consistency.

My frag. I don't even know who that character was, but I feel for their fans, because that looked about as pointless, gruesome and arbitary as they can get.

It really is just and excuse for completely gratuituos character deaths, isn't it?

Who the heck even wants to read a comic like that?

The really sad part is, I'm feeling less and less sorry that my Marvel stuff is coming to an end, given that what they're putting out is becoming unmigitated crap that makes the Stupid XTREME of the ninties look grand by comparison; at least that was so stupid it was something you could take the rip out of... Most of the modern crap stuff just feels frankly flat-out mean-spirited.

Are the DC and Marvel editorial trying to make their comics suck so bad they go out of business? Because if it's fracking off otherwise easy-to-please (I mean, I like the SW prequels, fer cryin' out loud!) people like me, they must be going the right way about it...

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, and the distribution goes through Diamond. Diamond in turn is the distributor for the bulk of comics companies even outside the big two. Diamond pretty much has a monopoly on the whole thing outside maybe newsstand copies and market isle digests like Archie.

It's not just Marvel and DC so much as it is an industry wide issue.

I don't know about that. The new My Little Pony comic got something like 100K sales without any issues and what's more from what I've heard the readers really enjoyed the comic.


I think it's more a quality thing from both Marvel and DC. With DC being worse then Marvel. For the longest time (and still now) those two were the vast majority of sales but now their sales are dropping and I suspect sales of other comics are rising. Overall the industry is shrinking though because there isn't a perfect transfer.

[comicshorse]

Also, what really pisses me off:
1) DC fired Gail Simone. Via E-MAIL! E! MAIL! Seriously. I hated her Batgirl run, but c'mon, she deserves more.
2) Also, DC apparently fired Karen Berger from the position of Vertigo's editor-in-chief. Person who helped bring to life Sandman, Lucifer, Fables, American Vampire, DMZ and Hellblazer

It seems that after fans demanded them to hire more women Dan Didio's answer was to fire all remaining women. And considering what ridiculous amount of over-exposure Barbara Gordon and John Constantine are getting, he tries to show he don't need people who were vital in making them popular in the first place a little too much.

Excuse me I must just go and cast a curse on DC

With Simone leaving Batgirl and Cornell leaving Demon Knight and Hellblazer being cancelled I'll be down to only three DC comics ( Fables, Fairest and Batman Inc.) and up to a few years ago I'd considered myself a DC fan

[tbok1992]

Meh, I'm just waiting for this whole bullhonkey to collapse in on itself so that the people in editorial screwing up can be fired and somebody can come in to fix the whole mess. Because, that's the way these things tend to go from my knowlege of comics history, and hopefully this era of the New 52 will go the way of Heroes Reborn and The Clone Saga as "The dark times that shall be never spoken of again, except fro the parts that didn't suck."

And I do agree it is total BS what DC's done to its legacy characters. And keep in mind, I'm the sort of guy who loves bringing back weird old Silver Age stuff.

[Kalmarvho]

Also, speaking of "not thinking straight", has anyone else seen the leaked bits of Avengers Arena yet? It's been a joke among the marvel fandom for a while, but actually seeing a few of the actual panels and looking at who gets killed off in what way makes it very clear exactly how bad everything must be with Marvel. I mean if nothing else, they're hiring writers who suck that badly at dialogue and internal consistency.

It's Hopeless, he's kind of a bloody hack.

The running theory is that the entire thing is a VR sim, which is one of the only explanations for why Arcade is now a plausible threat.

The other explanation is that the writer is an Arcade fanboy, which he is.

[Jayngfet]

I don't know about that. The new My Little Pony comic got something like 100K sales without any issues and what's more from what I've heard the readers really enjoyed the comic.


I think it's more a quality thing from both Marvel and DC. With DC being worse then Marvel. For the longest time (and still now) those two were the vast majority of sales but now their sales are dropping and I suspect sales of other comics are rising. Overall the industry is shrinking though because there isn't a perfect transfer.

Yeah, but the MLP comic was a first issue with a bunch of variants. If it still pulls in even 90% of those numbers by like, issue 5 or 6, I'll give you that in and of itself as a feat.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's not quite fair to judge the company based on one comics that has suckiness encoded deep in it's premise. I'm for one, am waiting for Young Avengers.

Also, what really pisses me off:
1) DC fired Gail Simone. Via E-MAIL! E! MAIL! Seriously. I hated her Batgirl run, but c'mon, she deserves more.
2) Also, DC apparently fired Karen Berger from the position of Vertigo's editor-in-chief. Person who helped bring to life Sandman, Lucifer, Fables, American Vampire, DMZ and Hellblazer

It seems that after fans demanded them to hire more women Dan Didio's answer was to fire all remaining women. And considering what ridiculous amount of over-exposure Barbara Gordon and John Constantine are getting, he tries to show he don't need people who were vital in making them popular in the first place a little too much.

Wow. I will now officially stop reading DC comics. Gail was my favorite writer, and the reason she took Batgirl was basically "I don't agree with doing this, but if anyone should do it, I should".

Can someone who is better than me at these things let me know where she will be working so I can pick up whatever comic she does instead in the future?

[ThiagoMartell]

Wow. I will now officially stop reading DC comics. Gail was my favorite writer, and the reason she took Batgirl was basically "I don't agree with doing this, but if anyone should do it, I should".

Can someone who is better than me at these things let me know where she will be working so I can pick up whatever comic she does instead in the future?

Man, it would be pretty cool if Marvel hired her to do Runaways.
Oh, wait, they're getting killed in Avengers Arena. Nevermind.

[Jayngfet]

My frag. I don't even know who that character was, but I feel for their fans, because that looked about as pointless, gruesome and arbitary as they can get.

It really is just and excuse for completely gratuituos character deaths, isn't it?

Who the heck even wants to read a comic like that?

The really sad part is, I'm feeling less and less sorry that my Marvel stuff is coming to an end, given that what they're putting out is becoming unmigitated crap that makes the Stupid XTREME of the ninties look grand by comparison; at least that was so stupid it was something you could take the rip out of... Most of the modern crap stuff just feels frankly flat-out mean-spirited.

Are the DC and Marvel editorial trying to make their comics suck so bad they go out of business? Because if it's fracking off otherwise easy-to-please (I mean, I like the SW prequels, fer cryin' out loud!) people like me, they must be going the right way about it...

Hack writing more than anything else I think.

This is them literally just aping Battle Royale and Hunger Games as blatantly as possible(including variant covers), without understanding the reasoning that goes into the stories themselves. "Kids fight each other to the death" doesn't really work in universe, and it doesn't work thematically either.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but the MLP comic was a first issue with a bunch of variants. If it still pulls in even 90% of those numbers by like, issue 5 or 6, I'll give you that in and of itself as a feat.

Fair enough. I suppose we'll have to wait and see for the MLP comic.

As for the other matter, well that would take a lot of research that I haven't done to see if it's correct or not.

[Selrahc]

This is them literally just aping Battle Royale and Hunger Games as blatantly as possible(including variant covers), without understanding the reasoning that goes into the stories themselves. "Kids fight each other to the death" doesn't really work in universe, and it doesn't work thematically either.

Ugh. You know one of the areas of Marvel I've kept up with more than most is the "Teen-heroes". Young Avengers, Runaways and Avengers Academy were all top notch series at one point. Fresh heroes dealing with the scary proposition of living up to the legacy of the Supers was fertile ground for storytelling.

The thought of them just doing some sort of young hero genocide is very sad. I'm holding out hope that it turns out to be retconned at the end of the story.

I'm kind of glad at least Kate Bishop has probably escaped, to go and be a co-star in Hawkeye. Which is an awesome comic that you should all be reading.

[Tiki Snakes]

Ugh. You know one of the areas of Marvel I've kept up with more than most is the "Teen-heroes". Young Avengers, Runaways and Avengers Academy were all top notch series at one point. Fresh heroes dealing with the scary proposition of living up to the legacy of the Supers was fertile ground for storytelling.

Well, the problem for this is that, without time passing in a linear matter and characters aging, you can't sustainably introduce new characters and they have no legend to live up to, because the x-men only formed a few months ago.

Of course, I don't think the answer to this is to stick all the new characters through the Thunderdome till you only have one or two left as much as it is to, you know, allow time to meaningfully progress. But what the hell do I know?

[Aotrs Commander]

Ugh. You know one of the areas of Marvel I've kept up with more than most is the "Teen-heroes". Young Avengers, Runaways and Avengers Academy were all top notch series at one point. Fresh heroes dealing with the scary proposition of living up to the legacy of the Supers was fertile ground for storytelling.

The thought of them just doing some sort of young hero genocide is very sad. I'm holding out hope that it turns out to be retconned at the end of the story.

Considering they kind of have a history with this sort of thing (see New X Men around M-Day...) I wouldn't bet on it.

[Wolf_Haley]

It's Arcade, it'll most likely all be a simulation in the end and they've already dropped hints Arena isn't what it seems, book still sucks though.

And thank god Gail is off Batgirl, the title sucked hard with her under it.

[ThiagoMartell]

And thank god Gail is off Batgirl, the title sucked hard with her under it.

No one should be allowed to write Barbara Gordon except for Gail Simone.
You could disagree, but you would be wrong.