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2012-11-11, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Again, but material outside of the original creator company's hands is usually deferred to before the tertiary company's hands.
Just like Third Party DND books like Shadowmagic aren't canon to Forgotten Realms.
Just like GT isn't canon to mainline Dragonball verse because it doesn't have a manga equivalent, and the only thing Akira Toriyama touched in it was character art.Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 01:09 PM.
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2012-11-11, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
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2012-11-11, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Yes, the ideological doctrine that held up (non-mutated) terran humans as the supreme rulers of the galaxy, supported a galactic-scale xenocidal crusade, and viewed the presence of AI as worthy of glassing planets is definitely consistent with the Culture's views.
Still, if they heal Rowboat we'll finally have someone with enough raw Mary Sue power to actually put up a real fight. Short of just having the Illuminati turn the Emprah back on and him re-writing the STC from memory there isn't a bigger way to swing the odds towards the IoM having a shot.
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2012-11-11, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2012-11-11, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-11, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Even assuming that this holds true for a company that literally can't even keep from contradicting itself in its own internally published material, let alone conflicting with licensed third-party material - who or what are you arguing about here? You're currently saying that 1st-party material is more canon than 3rd-party material for 40K fluff; that's contradictory to what you said several posts above, that because FFG is a 3rd party material, what it prints is non-canonical.
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2012-11-11, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
part 7.5 continued
SpoilerGunboat Diplomacy is enroute to Macragge. Hyperdrive degradation from the unofficial 'race' over the galaxy has restricted our speeds severely. The ROU is expected to arrive next week.
Peacemaker has arrived at a nearby Tau system, this is Bork'An, a noted major colony. Well-populated and patrolled, we are unable to approach closely without being detected by significantly more advanced Tau sensors.
Nevertheless, we have still scanned the Tau world and it does appear to have the IoM reported social structure, although when observed, does not contain some of the more sinister reports of hidden cruelty. Such may be discounted as IoM exaggeration.
The Tau appear to be a generally peaceful race although their culture still suppresses individual freedoms to some extent. While certainly more meritocratic than the IoM, the Tau are not the paragons of freedom that some analysts of IoM accounts might claim. They do still possess a hierarchial power structure and classical government (pure meritocracy type B, within castes), unlike what some speculators might have hoped. At the least, they do not possess anything at all like a libertarian approach to government.
Their caste system in particular dictates roles in society and mobility between the castes as well as more 'creative' interpretations of the Greater Good are... frowned upon. And certainly, the Tau are not xenophobic but possess a belief of the superiority of their social system.
For this reason, this GCU believes that contact with the Tau and medium to long term peaceful reform is possible and should be attempted; without specific injunctions, we will proceed to open first contact within 24 standard hours.
...
This GCU will proceed with first contact.
Tau World - Bork'An
The GCU Peacemaker drops its stealth below the orbital plane and is immediately registered by Tau sensors. It begins broadcasting a message on the entire spectrum with IoM protocols in Low Gothic:
Greetings to the Tau Empire, we are the Culture and we come in peace. We originate from outside this galaxy and this expedition is both to explore and to colonize.
We have encountered reports of your kind from the Imperium of Mankind and we are pleased to discover a potential ally in an unstable galaxy. Please do not fear that we might share the IoM's attitude towards you, we are fully aware of the IoM's tendency to xenophobia.
In a galaxy full of Chaos, we seek friends and allies in the coming conflict. We hope that we may eventually count the Tau among them, but even if the Tau are unable or unwilling to help us, we clearly have much to learn from each other.
We have no wish to intrude into Tau matters nor do we desire your worlds or resources. We hope that our aligned goals and lack of conflicting desires will be conducive to a lasting peace and a fruitful friendship.
Responses can be directed at this ship along any channel with any IoM protocol. A different communication protocol can also be detailed and we will accommodate. We also desire to learn the Tau language so that we may communicate more effectively.
I think having time travel is more complicated than it first appears. Closed time loops are nasty nasty things.
So I'm going to go with, "that was a freak occurence the Culture just witnessed". It won't happen again to any useful frequency.
Do feel free to continue discussing it though.
Tau:
I do note that to the Tau, Chaos isn't that big of a problem. The Tyranids and the IoM are a bigger problem.
And to the Culture, it's the exact opposite. The Tyranids are a non-problem, and the IoM... we'll get to them, but if need be, they're also a non-problem.
I'm not actually going to play out the whole exchange, so you can feel free to write the Tau response if you want.
Do also remember that the Tau are about to get that Messenger ship with the report of the hive fleet splinter's destruction. Reactions to that?
Guilliman:
I don't think even he can arrange a fight to go the IoM's way with the Culture's reaction times, even if he attacks under a white flag. There comes a point in technological superiority that no amount of tactical genius can overcome.
The IoM ships are too slow and too outclassed. Between Tactical FTL, Effectors/Displacers, and Trapdoor, they have nothing that has even a icecube's chance in hell of working.SpoilerNot even a warpdrive detonation would be able to catch a GCU, given that it would see the ship powering up and scram. Or just take over the ship and force a shutdown.
Not to mention that it would be manifestly one of the worst possible things he could do.Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-11 at 01:32 PM.
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2012-11-11, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
How is that contradictory?
What is printed by GW > Stuff printed by other companies.
While I will admit that my stance on it being non canonical is a personal point that I can't argue without official support, it being less canon than Gamesworkshop Material should be a no brainer.
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2012-11-11, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Primarily because when GW can't even keep its own canon straight, I just don't see any reason to value it over a licensed third-party producer who's actually capable of consistency. It's not like a typical canon disagreement where 1st Party says X can be trusted over Third-Party Says Y, we're dealing with 1st-Party says X, Y, Z, and Q, all of which contradict each other, you lose any solid rationale for valuing their statements above 3rd-Party statements R and S, which might disagree with X and Y but are consistent with each other.
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2012-11-11, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-11, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
More on Guilliman:
Although I don't think he can win a conventional battle with the Culture, I would say he could certainly convince the Culture to stay its hand or lay off intervention with the IoM.
Not to mention that he personally could and would do alot of the major and hardest reform work the Culture would have to undertake if they ever set out to intervene actively.Stories:
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2012-11-11, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I don't think creative control is relevant here. We're not discussing the intentions of one group of authors or another, but rather the properties of a fictional universe. As such, the only value that "creative control" has is the ability to provide consistency to make a more viable universe. If it cannot provide consistency, then we must default to those accounts of the universe that can, be they third party or even fanfiction.
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2012-11-11, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
It's hard to overstate how much of a huge jackass Guilleman was and is. A number of the problems the Imperium faces right now are arguably his personal fault.
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2012-11-11, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Because your entire argument is based on the principle that the primary creator should be considered more canon than its licensed derivative. But GW's internal canon is worthless as any baseline for something to be 'less canon' in comparison, because it's so inconsistent and contradictory...reduced to a purely mathematical expression (because I'm doing a math assignment), it is impossible to quantify that (Y < X) if the value of Y is known but the value of X is undefined.
There's no way he could win a conventional battle, so the point would be to avoid engaging them in any sort of conventional battle to begin with. In terms of unconventional/asymmetrical warfare, though, it'd be Alpharius/Omegon who would become the Culture's greatest enemy.
And yeah, he was a total jerk. Just like Superman.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-11 at 02:09 PM.
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2012-11-11, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
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2012-11-11, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
That's not a correct answer at all, while GW may "revise" canon from time to time they do keep things consistent within the codex's, and they are the original source.
Your opinion's on consistency are not relevant, and honestly taking fanfiction into account at all is an immediate no in any formal debate. I could bring up a fanfiction where 40k beats the culture because lances are randomly better than Gridfire, and they "Lulz Psyker Rape" the minds.
Would it be canon? No. Because fanfiction isn't.
Third party sources are also outside of control of the "Creative Source", so they aren't canon.
Consistency aside, it doesn't matter, Games Workshop work > any other source for 40k material. if you don't see a GW logo on the cover, it's less canon because it's their stamp of approved content. The only official measure of "canon" GW has is that stamp.Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 02:20 PM.
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2012-11-11, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Fanfiction is, by definition, unlicensed, so that's not a valid comparison to make.
As for the third-party thing, we've been over (and you'd admitted) that derivative=non-canon is simply your personal feelings rather than some hard truth, so that's fine. But even then, let's chase a hypothetical - why are you so convinced that GW has no creative input into the RPGs? The front page of the Dark Heresy rulebook, for instance, lists three Games Workshop Employees: a Licensing Manager, a Licensing and Acquired Rights Manager, and a Head of Legal+Licensing. The third of those is definitely a glorified lawyer, but having two staffed positions specifically to manage the license seems like pretty strong evidence that the FFG-GW relationship extends beyond an exchange of cash. If the terms of license (that we don't have access to) are in any way similar to the terms of license between Black Library Publishing and the authors of the novels, then FFG's productions rank in equal canonicity, because GW has equal creative control over both.
Incidentally, is the stamp you're referring to also metaphorical? Because none of my Black Library books have a Games Workshop emblem on them (though there is one on my Necrons 5E codex).Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-11 at 02:40 PM.
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2012-11-11, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I think you have a bit of a misconception about the Imperium of Man; it seems like you see them as a once-reasonable* people who became unreasonable after the Horus Heresy and have been on a moral/ethical downhill slide since.
That is not the case.
The Imperium, even at the height of their civilization under the Emperor's personal guidance, has never been anything other than completely human supremacist to the point of casual xenocide. Even at the height of their technical knowledge and with the Emperor and Machine Cult both in full Science! swings they have always seen AIs** as at least as dangerous as Chaos; standard protocal is to Exterminatus the whole planet if there is one AI there. The Emperor, as his title implies, has never had any inclinations towards freedom or democratic rule for his human subjects, and was more than willing to kill billions if it would achieve his goals.
The Idirans are absolute amateurs in terms of atrocity compared to the IoM, at least based on what I've read about them, and would compare favorably even to the Tau in the WH40k setting. That's really the best way I can express it, other than just making a post saying GRIMDARK 400 times in a row.
*Let "reasonable" = utilitarian ^ rationalist ^ posthumanist ^ ~speciest ^ ~interventionist, as Ian Banks seems to do.
**Yes, yes, Minds aren't AI. Whatever. The IoM will not see such a nuanced distinction as significant in terms of wanting them gone.
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2012-11-11, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
It'd almost be hard to fault them is the ironic thing. The Minds have, after all, pretty immediately turned their attention to undermining the Imperium's sovreignty, imposing a puppet ruler, dismantling their religious organisations and generally remolding them as they see fit (and mostly because simply destroying the imperium would make them feel bad, I get the feeling that if they can't change the Imperium as they want they'd probably consider destroying it anyway). They also, via their post-singularity tech, hubris and complete lack of understanding the warp, potentially represent a galaxy ending threat if Chaos ever got hold of their stuff, which has come close once or twice.
All of which is undoubtedly more benevalent than the actions of the Iron Men, who sound like they were more generally opposed to their former masters than the more targeted, institution and cultural things the Culture would be attempting to change/destroy.
Eventually, the Men of Iron turned on their human masters, believing themselves superior to the humans who relied on the Men of Iron to do virtually everything for them. In the end, the Men of Iron were destroyed by humanity in a terrible war that extinguished countless lives and destroyed the ancient galaxy's economic and political unity.
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2012-11-11, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I think some of the confusion is that earlier takes on the Emperor back in first edition had him more idealistic and ethical but over time that was retconned away because no one can be a good guy in 40k ever! The same thing is happening to the Tau. At first their concept of the 'Greater Good' was everything it appeared to be then later writers didn't like it and started adding in the stuff about sterilizing 'inferior species'.
Last edited by Spamotron; 2012-11-11 at 03:12 PM.
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2012-11-11, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Too rare, and it's uncontrolled. The sheer effort expended wouldn't make it worth it.
The Tau are the most reasonable as they aren't as proud as the Eldar and believe in working together for the Greater Good. I mean they even allied with Dark Eldar against the Tyranids (it went about as well as expected in the end.)
40K mostly ignores Black Holes and Neutron Stars. Generally those things are so lethal that nothing important could survive there so they are treated as hazards to avoid.
No he isn't actually dead. He is however poisoned by a warp weapon. So even the Culture might not be able to cure him. (They might just reload him though.) He is also a giant ****.
You know you don't need to rush the Culture's actions so much. Spread out the time span a little and let everything just move a little slower.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2012-11-11, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
How would the Tau react to this...
well, by immediately setting up diplomatic embassies, attempts to trade materiel, culture, some examples of (relatively low tech) technology, showing them all about the cooperation between species of their culture, and basically earnestly trying to show The Culture that joining The Greater Good is a really swell idea. Expect a lot of Water Caste envoys doing various types of diplomacy-ing, lots of attempts to get a handle on what The Culture really is (rather than taking their word for it; Tau have been burned by false promises of peace before, after all...), and all the nitty-gritty of a preferably-peacefully expansionist society trying to woo people over.
Especially since The Tau would probably get a noncommital response from The Culture regarding joining the actual Greater Good philosophy, they would try and dangle the carrot that only by truly accepting the Greater Good (and pledging their allegiance), could The Culture really have a driving influence in Tau society, rather than merely being an allied race. But they would certainly be willing to have several Water Caste (or even some members from all castes!) live on The Culture ships... once they believe that The Culture is the real deal. Assuming The Culture is noncommital about joining the actual philosophy and pledging to be part of the Tau Empire, they would probably seek to peacefully prosthelytize amongst Culture citizens and societies.
The fact that this would get to a Immovable Object, Irresistible Force sort of situation at some point would be fairly apparent to all involved -- after a certain point -- so they would be taking precautions to get promises so that no matter how that eventually ends up, the Tau Empire won't get burned.
The actual response to the transmission would be fairly generic and a bit heavy on the 'For Peace and Prosperity and Cooperation!' rhetoric.
And The Tau wish to spread The Greater Good wherever there are sentients, so not specifically planets. Though they would be cautious about 'join the Greater Good!' immediately, and more focusing on (for now) the slower process of showing how nifty their way of doing things is. In the short term, they would be very very interested in mercenaries, however!
Agreed, its Really Okay for there to be a month or two where nothing happens.
They would certainly want to know if The Culture has encountered The Tyranids in a particular area, and ask if they know anything about some area. They wouldn't immediately believe The Culture was responsible for such a rapid destruction of a fleet, if they claimed they were.Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-11 at 04:14 PM.
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2012-11-11, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The one on the codex's. Yes.
But again, I maintain that out of all the Primarch's. Sanguinus was the most noble, the one with the most wisdom, and the most hope for humanity.
Even if it was a back up copy, he'd be a worthy successor, even Horus believed that Sanguinus was the one that should've been Warmaster.
Also Sanguinus's body is entombed upon Baal, the body wasn't left on the battle barge.Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 04:34 PM.
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2012-11-11, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
It wouldn't be a backup copy. It'd be a genetic clone, a twin, maybe made out of the bones of the previous. Maybe it would have engineered memories, maybe not. But it wouldn't be a copy. It could get closer if they could get his soul to be attracted back into that body, and purified in the process (thus reincarnating him, like old-style Eldar used to do before Slaanesh)... but even then it wouldn't be a 'load from backup' copy.
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-11 at 04:47 PM.
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2012-11-11, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Eerr, the emprah was even less idealistic and ethical in the start at Rogue Trade. He actually was pretty much "Warlord that wants to conquer everything he can see". The whole "golden aura" and "I bring enlightment but I'll destroy high tech and refuse to admit empirical evidence" aspect just started coming up later.
Meanwhile, the sterelization bit itself comes from the computer games. That also have Khorne sorcerers (whereas all other media has Khorne outright hating magic), somehow geting blood out of necrons, METAL BAWKSES, blood magpies, 4 orks defeating the blood ravens, a chaos warband, numerous IG regiments, and a chaos warbad for dessert, etc, etcLast edited by deuterio12; 2012-11-11 at 04:51 PM.
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2012-11-11, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-11, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
He probably means being a capital-A Atheist in the face of Chaos Gods / C'Tan / Eldar deities. I personally agree with the Big E's "They're just Sufficiently Advanced Aliens" reasoning in terms of what we know about the setting, but we should probably avoid that since it borders on Verbotten topics.
At the same time, I don't think anyone can say he was anti-tech or anti-science, just that he had a very very specific idea of what is an acceptable outcome. Having all-powerful alien gods or AIs ruling(/'advising') Mankind is anathema to his very existence, and he saw human domination of the galaxy as the ultimate good which science must serve rather than it existing for it's own sake. The Imperial Truth, if the Great Crusade had succeeded, would have approached Singularity from the biological side; with himself, the Tech-Priests of the Omnissiah, and his Primarchs/Speesh Mareensh becoming more and more intelligent rather than just jumping to the end by making digital intelligences from scratch.
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2012-11-11, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Ah, about the Emperor. Isn't the emperor basically dead? As in, only a few cells of him is still alive.
So the Culture would have an even harder time reviving the Emperor than Guilliman. There is also the problem that the Golden Throne and Astronomican are tied together. They risk breaking his flashlight and the rest of the IoM by extension.
If the "few cells" bit is true, then you know, there really isn't very much they can do. But even his memories are gone since his brain is (mostly) gone.
Clone him maybe. But good luck trying to get the Culture to clone an A+ psyker when they know that's the very thing that would end up with a ship taken over by Chaos. And they might not even get a psyker depending on how much of a natural birth you need to get a psyker in the first place.Stories:
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2012-11-11, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
No one actually says how much of The Emperor is alive... it's left ambiguous.
Also, the Astronomicon worked perfectly fine before he was put into it and the thing fed a bunch of Psykers...
It would have to go back to, you know, a different form of operation that it hasn't done, but such a thing would be plausible...
...AFTER The Culture gets a handle on Warp physics and making psychoactive plastics and such (cause I believe The Astronomicon uses a bunch of human-made but Eldar style wraithbone-equivalents, or at least other drawn from the warp materials, done by the Emperor).
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2012-11-11, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The Culture's response to that would basically run along the lines of "Personally, I prefer staying where we are. But you are free to try convincing anyone who wants to join you. "
The Culture's culture (anarchist liberal) where everyone does whatever they want is kinda like the exact opposite of the Greater Good. >.>
How would the Tau react to that?
And the Culture are really fussy about being used as a big stick. About the only thing the Tau could point them at are Tyranids.
I'll keep that in mind, but its actually a rare three weeks in which nothing happens. At the rate of the Culture's ships being produced and moving around, they run over something important every few weeks.
And being that there's so many different threads, *something* happens every now and then.
What I'm trying to do here is give all of them equal light. If I was doing it by "what would happen", part 7 would be all about the Necrons... and maybe the ork thing.Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-11 at 10:07 PM.
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