Attack on Titan / Shingeki No Kyojin

[Kato]

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Somewhere I got spoiled about Berthold's other identity but as I said, when Reiner just told Eren all of a sudden it was quite a WTF moment...


There's actually a bunch of stuff that still bugs me... nothing major but still. Like Mikasa's crazy obsession to the point where hardly anything else matters to her, (still) Eren forgetting about the key for like five years or something, I'm still of the opinion the average soldier should have less trouble fighting single titans and the motto of the army shouldn't be "most of you will die, but some of you will be lucky"... Oh, and I guess a bunch of stuff that will hopefully get wrapped up over time. (Like whether the three Titans were little kids when they attacked and what's their agenda and what's the church's agenda...)

Also, a friend of mine and I tried to put together some numbers on the size of the walls and stuff recently and... I don't know, it all seems somewhat weird when it comes to scale to me but nothing is exactly wrong about it.

[Forrestfire]

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Somewhere I got spoiled about Berthold's other identity but as I said, when Reiner just told Eren all of a sudden it was quite a WTF moment...

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I did a double take and had to go back a few pages to see if I missed anything. It was so hilariously out of the blue XD

[Astrella]

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Yeah, them just telling completely struck me out of the left field. I really thought they were joking or that it was a dream or something.

[LaZodiac]

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There's actually a bunch of stuff that still bugs me... nothing major but still. Like Mikasa's crazy obsession to the point where hardly anything else matters to her, (still) Eren forgetting about the key for like five years or something, I'm still of the opinion the average soldier should have less trouble fighting single titans and the motto of the army shouldn't be "most of you will die, but some of you will be lucky"... Oh, and I guess a bunch of stuff that will hopefully get wrapped up over time. (Like whether the three Titans were little kids when they attacked and what's their agenda and what's the church's agenda...)

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Mikasa's obsession IS fairly weird, but it's also understandable. She basically has nothing in the world by Eren, so literally NOTHING else matters.

Eren will bring up the key when they get to the house. No use talking about the key until they know what it unlocks.

We'll definitely find out more about the Titans and the church as we go, they're kind of the main plot

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Yeah, them just telling completely struck me out of the left field. I really thought they were joking or that it was a dream or something.

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Oh, same here. It was like "...dude, that's kind of a rude joke, don't say things like that". And then he started transforming and I was like "...wait no you're serious? What the...what the hell!"

[Raimun]

I've watched a few episodes now and this looks interesting.

Sure, some things make no sense if you think about it (no better cannons yadda, yadda) but I think that's the point. From what I've seen, I don't think the whole society makes much sense. They're inefficient, make poor decisions and stick to one path, even if there are better ones. They'd rather stick to a status quo than think of anything that might rock the boat. That's kind of an universal theme, I think.

Anyway, the titans are really unsettling. I haven't been as... unsettled(?) by movie/tv-monsters for ages. I guess it's the uncanny valley-thing.

Edit: Plus the opening is pure metal! \,,/

[Tectonic Robot]

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Somewhere I got spoiled about Berthold's other identity but as I said, when Reiner just told Eren all of a sudden it was quite a WTF moment...


There's actually a bunch of stuff that still bugs me... nothing major but still. Like Mikasa's crazy obsession to the point where hardly anything else matters to her, (still) Eren forgetting about the key for like five years or something, I'm still of the opinion the average soldier should have less trouble fighting single titans and the motto of the army shouldn't be "most of you will die, but some of you will be lucky"... Oh, and I guess a bunch of stuff that will hopefully get wrapped up over time. (Like whether the three Titans were little kids when they attacked and what's their agenda and what's the church's agenda...)

Also, a friend of mine and I tried to put together some numbers on the size of the walls and stuff recently and... I don't know, it all seems somewhat weird when it comes to scale to me but nothing is exactly wrong about it.

Spoilered response!

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The sudden revelation actually made me laugh a bit. I liked that bit.

The show does show that having a military based entirely around soldiers being paragons of virtue and willing to die for their people is not a very smart plan. The main military does seem to lack much planning besides "die bravely while we retreat", y'know?

The survey corps are much more competent when it comes to fighting titans, probably due to their better tactics.

[Kato]

Okay, I won't quote all of you but it seems that reveal really catches everyone by surprise, ao I'm not on my own. I wonder if they wanted to make people laugh intentionally there

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Mikasa's obsession IS fairly weird, but it's also understandable. She basically has nothing in the world by Eren, so literally NOTHING else matters.

Eren will bring up the key when they get to the house. No use talking about the key until they know what it unlocks.

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I get why she is like this but... really, this is, like, Yuno Gasai level of obsession. It just seems unnatural and quite honestly I can see why some people would get offended about a woman dedicating her whole life for a man. I'm not sure how I would feel if the genders were reversed but if Mikasa wasn't as badass as she is it would be even worse.

It's more like... "Hey, son, this key holds the truth about the Titans! Go look into the cellar!" - years later - "Oh, right, there was this key..." I'm not sure whether he really had amnesia concerning that talk (he couldn't have forgotten the key, he always had it with him) but I get the bit about the place being kind of hard to reach but... couldn't he have told someone? "Hey, this key may save humanity! Meh, I'm not telling anyone until I can go there myself!"
Also, speaking of Eren, while I don't think the show is that great overall I like how "Abridge on Titan" portrays him as a genocidal maniac.

Spoilered response!

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The show does show that having a military based entirely around soldiers being paragons of virtue and willing to die for their people is not a very smart plan. The main military does seem to lack much planning besides "die bravely while we retreat", y'know?

The survey corps are much more competent when it comes to fighting titans, probably due to their better tactics.

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I wouldn't even say "paragons of virtue and willing to die", it comes of more as "well, you probably won't get to kill a single titan so nine out of ten are just a distraction so someone else can do something useful. Do your best!" They don't even give the impression they'd have a fighting chance at times and with such a poor morale...

[LaZodiac]

Okay, I won't quote all of you but it seems that reveal really catches everyone by surprise, ao I'm not on my own. I wonder if they wanted to make people laugh intentionally there

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I get why she is like this but... really, this is, like, Yuno Gasai level of obsession. It just seems unnatural and quite honestly I can see why some people would get offended about a woman dedicating her whole life for a man. I'm not sure how I would feel if the genders were reversed but if Mikasa wasn't as badass as she is it would be even worse.

It's more like... "Hey, son, this key holds the truth about the Titans! Go look into the cellar!" - years later - "Oh, right, there was this key..." I'm not sure whether he really had amnesia concerning that talk (he couldn't have forgotten the key, he always had it with him) but I get the bit about the place being kind of hard to reach but... couldn't he have told someone? "Hey, this key may save humanity! Meh, I'm not telling anyone until I can go there myself!"
Also, speaking of Eren, while I don't think the show is that great overall I like how "Abridge on Titan" portrays him as a genocidal maniac.

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I see what you mean regarding Mikasa. The fact that people wouldn't think of that at all if the situation was reversed is a bad sign

Well, lets be honest here. Eren IS genocidal, and is very likely COMPLETELY insane. Him not mentioning the key makes sense for him.

[John Cribati]

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I see what you mean regarding Mikasa. The fact that people wouldn't think of that at all if the situation was reversed is a bad sign

Well, lets be honest here. Eren IS genocidal, and is very likely COMPLETELY insane. Him not mentioning the key makes sense for him.

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I get why Mikasa has this fixation on Eren: Not only is he all she has left, but she's projecting her family's loss onto him. He represents the only thing that matters to her. At the same time, that doesn't remove the inherent sexism of the situation.

Though it's kind of weird when you think about it... I always like to imagine gender-reversed media, where everyone makes exactly the same decisions, they're just guys instead of girls and girls instead of guys. In this situation M!Mikasa would be a standard guy, but F!Eren would be a ragin storm of problems. Given all that stuff from earlier about Eren being a main character without his own agency, F!Eren would basically be calling down a tornado of burning bras. Not to mention M!Mikasa constantly having to save her from her single-minded dedication would be.

Props for the doctor/scientist mother, though.

[LaZodiac]

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I get why Mikasa has this fixation on Eren: Not only is he all she has left, but she's projecting her family's loss onto him. He represents the only thing that matters to her. At the same time, that doesn't remove the inherent sexism of the situation.

Though it's kind of weird when you think about it... I always like to imagine gender-reversed media, where everyone makes exactly the same decisions, they're just guys instead of girls and girls instead of guys. In this situation M!Mikasa would be a standard guy, but F!Eren would be a ragin storm of problems. Given all that stuff from earlier about Eren being a main character without his own agency, F!Eren would basically be calling down a tornado of burning bras. Not to mention M!Mikasa constantly having to save her from her single-minded dedication would be.

Props for the doctor/scientist mother, though.

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Yeah, see, stuff like that is why I don't think Mikasa's attitude is even remotely sexist. If anything she's being more of a man then Eren is in the view of "sexism". That one instance aside the series is actually rather good with how it handles gender. Ymir's a chick you know, and the other titan lady who's name I forgot, she's bloody powerful! They're not just weaklings who get beaten easily.

[Tectonic Robot]

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Yeah, see, stuff like that is why I don't think Mikasa's attitude is even remotely sexist. If anything she's being more of a man then Eren is in the view of "sexism". That one instance aside the series is actually rather good with how it handles gender. Ymir's a chick you know, and the other titan lady who's name I forgot, she's bloody powerful! They're not just weaklings who get beaten easily.

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Fun fact: Eren's been tied up the most of any character in the comic.

[John Cribati]

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Yeah, see, stuff like that is why I don't think Mikasa's attitude is even remotely sexist. If anything she's being more of a man then Eren is in the view of "sexism". That one instance aside the series is actually rather good with how it handles gender. Ymir's a chick you know, and the other titan lady who's name I forgot, she's bloody powerful! They're not just weaklings who get beaten easily.

There is a bit of a misunderstanding here, just like before. I'll spell it out.

Certain conventions and plotlines in media are from ages past when various "isms" were the norm and nobody saw anything wrong with it (see: things like Blackface). That doesn't mean that they weren't Xist, just that everyone thought it was okay.

A female character who depends on a man for her entire being happens to be one such sexist convention.

Now, does Mikasa have a good reason for her dependence on Eren? Yes. Completely. Totally. I accept her reasoning. However, the justification for her dependence doesn't mean that the "Woman Depends on Man in Order to Be Strong" trope is not sexist. However, the series seems to be aware of the problems with the trope, and doesn't shy away from showing how unhealthy an attitude it is. That's what makes this particular instance of the trope acceptable from a feminist perspective, because it is calling out that inherent sexism.

Now, take, for example, the scene I mentioned a while back, of (pale-skinned, blond) Danerys Targaryen freeing the (brown) slaves and them having a grand old time almost literally worshiping the ground she walks on.

That's problematic because the "White Savior" trope is literally about, well, White Person saving Brown People. The Brown People exist and suffer for the sole purpose of having the White Savior free them and fulfill his/her role in the narrative (I shouldn't have to go in to why this is bad). Whatever justification you have for that, it doesn't change the inherent racism of the scene, because the narrative just goes along with it, and off the top of my head, every instance of the White Savior trope in any media was played straight.

[thubby]

i would actually argue she depends on eren so she doesn't have to be strong.
in the absence of eren, she's quick to act, willful, and at least modestly capable of leadership.

for whatever reason she has no desire to actually participate in life so she follows eren around and lets him do the thinking.

[John Cribati]

for whatever reason she has no desire to actually participate in life so she follows eren around and lets him do the thinking.

Eren and Mikasa's entire relationship can be summed up in the scene where she literally forces food down his throat. “You're an irrational, stubborn f**kup, and I love you anyway, so I’m gonna not let you get killed.”

[Raimun]

Eh, I don't see the issue. It's obvious they're a brother and a sister who care about each other very much. I'm pretty sure they would act exactly the same if both of their genders were reversed. Or just only one of them had his/her gender reversed.

Besides, Mikasa is really strong both mentally and physically.

Edit: I would understand if she was like Sakura and did nothing but yell something like "Sasuke-kun! Naruto-kun!" for most of the series and had no relevant skills to use during the fights.

Edit2: Furthermore, Eren needs Mikasa as much Mikasa needs Eren. Without Mikasa, Eren would have been dead at episode one. No more Edits.

[John Cribati]

Yeah but without Eren, she would have been sold off as a child prodtitute slave. Withou his words encouraging her to fight, they'd have both been dead at age 9. Mikasa's strength and power has always been directed at protecting Eren and that is the problem, because she’s putting her man (even if in this case it may not be romantic) above herself, and her man is the only reason she is alive.

Like I said, this would be problematic, but since the show never treats this behavior as anything but an unhealthy fixation, it sort of alleviates the issue.

[BRC]

Yeah but without Eren, she would have been sold off as a child prodtitute slave. Withou his words encouraging her to fight, they'd have both been dead at age 9. Mikasa's strength and power has always been directed at protecting Eren and that is the problem, because she’s putting her man (even if in this case it may not be romantic) above herself, and her man is the only reason she is alive.

Like I said, this would be problematic, but since the show never treats this behavior as anything but an unhealthy fixation, it sort of alleviates the issue.

I wouldn't read it like that.

Protecting Eren is certainly her primary motivation, but not her only one. Remember the scene with the merchant? She was honestly outraged by the merchant blocking the gate. As she should have been, she'd lived through an evacuation herself, so seeing the merchant allowing his greed to stop people from escaping outraged her.

It's more accurate to say she has no real ambition in life beyond keeping Eren safe. But consider how many male protagonists have the motivation of "I need to protect my sister/daughter". In Mikasa's case the person she's protecting just happens to run headlong into dangerous situations.

Consider, nobody is calling Armin a stalker for following Eren into the recon corps, and Armin has less reason than Mikasa (Unless "it would be nice to see the ocean someday" counts). Mikasa is trying to protect the person who saved her life and the only family she has left. Armin is just their friend (Although he too is a refugee with no surviving family). Plus unlike Mikasa he's NOT a badass titan killer. Even if his motivation WAS to protect Eren he wouldn't necessarily be all the capable of doing so.

Mikasa is considered dangerously obsessed for trying to protect her only remaining family. Armin is considered perfectly healthy for doing the exact same thing for his only remaining friends.


Of the three main characters, Eren is the only one with any real ambition (KILL ALL THE TITANS!!!!!). Mikasa is just going along to protect him, Armin is just following them. Considering that before joining the army they were orphaned refugees with no real money, education, or training, it's not like they had a lot of prospects going for them.

[LaZodiac]

The way I've actually had it explained is that Mikasa is actually kind of like a death seeker. She just values Eren's life above hers.

But as BRC points out, it's clear she's much deeper then that.

[John Cribati]

Mikasa is considered dangerously obsessed for trying to protect her only remaining family.

No, she’s considered dangerously obsessed because she's fixated on Eren to the point where she literally gave up on living when she thought he was dead, and only snapped out of it when she remembered Eren telling her to fight. She fights because of Eren. Both in the sense that Eren is the reason she's able to fight, an that he's the reason she continues to fight. She basically owes her skills and ability and her competence to the influence he has had on her life.

And yes, she did her duty as a soldier by dealing with the merchants. But when her duty as a soldier conflicts with her desire to protect Eren, guess what wins? She'll readily disobey any order and threaten any superior for him.

And as I keep saying, I believe that her feelings and actions are justified by what she has gone through, but that alone does not fix the problems inherent to the trope. It's the fact that Mikasa is learning to be strong for herself, that she’s constantly called out, even by Eren himself, on her often-irrational behavior, and it's never treated as an inherently heroic quality (because let's face it, man or woman, not caring about yourself at all is not a healthy thing).

[Dragonus45]

There is a bit of a misunderstanding here, just like before. I'll spell it out.

Certain conventions and plotlines in media are from ages past when various "isms" were the norm and nobody saw anything wrong with it (see: things like Blackface). That doesn't mean that they weren't Xist, just that everyone thought it was okay.

A female character who depends on a man for her entire being happens to be one such sexist convention.

Now, does Mikasa have a good reason for her dependence on Eren? Yes. Completely. Totally. I accept her reasoning. However, the justification for her dependence doesn't mean that the "Woman Depends on Man in Order to Be Strong" trope is not sexist. However, the series seems to be aware of the problems with the trope, and doesn't shy away from showing how unhealthy an attitude it is. That's what makes this particular instance of the trope acceptable from a feminist perspective, because it is calling out that inherent sexism.

I would argue the point on that being inherently sexist. I would sat that no tropes CAN be inherently good or bad in any way, its only when they are used that the context of that use gives them a value. More to the point of Mikasa and her obsession, the Woman Depends on Man in Order to Be Strong, or a female character who depends on a man for her entire being i don't see as all that bad. I see that as no different than the idea that The Man Depends on Woman in Order to Be Strong, or the idea of a Male Character who depends on a woman for his entire being, which one could argue is the base state of all society. I would say that the trope when done properly like it is here is an example of human empathy and the value of a relationship that lets you have an anchor during times of extreme emotional turmoil, also i could say it is an example of Mikasa acting with the same internal sense of disposability that most male characters have towards women. That said the intense severity of everything there shows Mikasa is also an example of someone who needed a grief counselor, and is rightly called out several times.

[John Cribati]

The Man Depends on Woman in Order to Be Strong, or the idea of a Male Character who depends on a woman for his entire being

You say that as if the portrayals are equal.

with a SWWISOBOM, every instance of her being strong has a the man at its root, and if not for the man, she wouldn't be strong at all. Like I said, Mikasa wouldn't have been fighting in the first place without Eren being there, and that's how it usually plays out. And if the narrative has her lose the Man, her breakdown is because the Man is no longer there, and her next step is usually “I have no reason to live.”
However, the SMWISOBOW is strong before he ever meets his Woman. Just like Eren was able, at 9 years old, to make the decision to kill two men. Furthermore, if the narrative has him lose his woman, his breakdown is out of a sense of failure of duty because he wasn't there to save her, and his next step is “Imma start ripping f***ers' heads off!” (See also, Eren's memetic “IMMA KILL ALL THE TITANS” mentality when he saw his mother get eaten, compared to Mikasa's “Imma just lay here on the floor an let them sell me into sexual slavery” mentality.). So what you've really got is Strong Man Who Affirms Said Strength by Being Strong on Behalf of a Woman.

And it's almost always like this. When strength of character is reliant on the opposite sex, it usually goes that Men are Strong for Women, while Women are strong because of men. And any time a woman is strong for a purpose outside of a man, it's seen as some sort of edgy new thing, because society can always see a man as an independent being, but can’t visualize a woman who isn't motivated, inspired, or dependent on a man.

[Dragonus45]

You say that as if the portrayals are equal.

with a SWWISOBOM, every instance of her being strong has a the man at its root, and if not for the man, she wouldn't be strong at all. Like I said, Mikasa wouldn't have been fighting in the first place without Eren being there, and that's how it usually plays out. And if the narrative has her lose the Man, her breakdown is because the Man is no longer there, and her next step is usually “I have no reason to live.”

When she was kidnapped and Eren tried to save her i would argue she was acting in a normal manner and he was kind of showing a psycotic streak that is not at all healthy, outside a situation as odd and post apocalyptic as this one. The narrative did have her "lose her man" and i would describe her minor breakdown as the same kind of failure of duty/ braking the promise to her mother thing. Yea she them bumped over to i have nothing to live for but there are plenty of examples of male characters becoming death seekers after the loss of a loved one as well.

However, the SMWISOBOW is strong before he ever meets his Woman. Just like Eren was able, at 9 years old, to make the decision to kill two men. Furthermore, if the narrative has him lose his woman, his breakdown is out of a sense of failure of duty because he wasn't there to save her, and his next step is “Imma start ripping f***ers' heads off!” (See also, Eren's memetic “IMMA KILL ALL THE TITANS” mentality when he saw his mother get eaten, compared to Mikasa's “Imma just lay here on the floor an let them sell me into sexual slavery” mentality.). So what you've really got is Strong Man Who Affirms Said Strength by Being Strong on Behalf of a Woman.

As i said above Erens nature is the series is a good example of long overdue therapy, here lay down and go into shock mentality was more normal for someone of that age seeing her parent murdered during her kidnapping.

And it's almost always like this. When strength of character is reliant on the opposite sex, it usually goes that Men are Strong for Women, while Women are strong because of men. And any time a woman is strong for a purpose outside of a man, it's seen as some sort of edgy new thing, because society can always see a man as an independent being, but can’t visualize a woman who isn't motivated, inspired, or dependent on a man.

The thing is i see Mikasa as an example of strong for Ehran and because of him both. Really i would say that the flaw i see in the argument is that people(and those tropes) are always going to be interdependent especially when they have close relationships, romantic or otherwise. I would say the emphasis of the strong for women part in male characters is just a direct mirror of how society has functioned for centuries, because for centuries the whole job of being male was to protect both society and their wives, children and others be it not getting onto a lifeboat or being drafted into war, or simply working the harder more back breaking jobs with higher mortality rates. But the strong because trope is just as prevalent in male characters often right next to if not as played up as the strong for trope, i would say that the best example i can think of for that is the whole concept of a muse.

Honestly i don't see how it's Edgy or New to have strong independent women, but then again I'm relatively young and grew up on more modern media. I do see it get played up a lot in advertising for shows and such, but that always felt like more of a marketing and media sales decision to try and draw in female viewers than a belief that it was actually new.

[John Cribati]

Okay, we seem to be going in circles here, so I'm going to end this.

Instead, have a Manga panel that is pretty much everything you need to know about the three main characters:

[LaZodiac]

Okay, we seem to be going in circles here, so I'm going to end this.

Instead, have a Manga panel that is pretty much everything you need to know about the three main characters:

Basically, yeah. Oh Eren.

[Kato]

New chapter. Geez, what a mess...

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So... Armin, Jean, Erwin and Connie (kind of) are badass. Okay, Armin is just a liar, I guess. Kind of douche-y, actually.

I guess he's just exhausted but Bert just letting Reiner do all the work is quite a **** move, I dare say.

And can't Ymir just go back with them now, when they are saved...?

Otherwise... well, I hope there's a good reason for the cliffhanger because otherwise that's a pretty damn stupid coincidence...

[LaZodiac]

What's the chapter number? Because the place I read it, I don't think there is a new chapter

[Kato]

What's the chapter number? Because the place I read it, I don't think there is a new chapter

49. I also only caught it because a friend of mine directed me to a certain "avian" manga site (I didn't even know existed before).

[LaZodiac]

Ah, okay. Anyway, I found it!

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Holy crap that was awesome. Armin REALLY kind of ****ed their chances of being allies, though.

Remember, Bert's titan form is slow as **** and has zero defensive capabilities. He's letting Reiner do all the work so that he doesn't die.

Ymir can't go back because they know she's a titan and thus will probably kill her.

Oh, sure, it's a coincidence, but it's also AWESOME. I can't wait to see Eren hulk out and get revenge.

[Raimun]

Gah. Why did they have to change the opening music?

That's one thing I don't understand about anime. If they have a great opening song, why don't they keep it forever and ever? You know, to let people only think of that series when they hear the music. Instead, one series might have dozens of opening songs of variable quality.

Imagine if they had changed the X-Files' opening music during the run of the show? Or Buffy the Vampire Slayer's? Or Angel's? Or... you get the idea.

[LaZodiac]

Gah. Why did they have to change the opening music?

That's one thing I don't understand about anime. If they have a great opening song, why don't they keep it forever and ever? You know, to let people only think of that series when they hear the music. Instead, one series might have dozens of opening song of variable quality.

Imagine if they had changed the X-Files' opening music during the run of the show? Or Buffy the Vampire Slayer's? Or Angel's? Or... you get the idea.

The reason is because Japan uses theme songs to denote seasons, or plot progression. The theme changes because the series itself ha changed.

A good example of why this is important is, look at Avatar the Last Airbender. The opening was the same through all six seasons. Despite the opening narration of the theme not fitting for any season but the first.