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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    dysprosium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Indeed more judging is good.

    Will the ties be broken?
    Will new ties form?
    Find out when we return!

  2. - Top - End - #392
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by dysprosium View Post
    Indeed more judging is good.

    Will the ties be broken?
    Will new ties form?
    Find out when we return!
    Answers in order:
    Highly doubtful
    Of course!
    Wait, we're returning?
    A True Paladin

  3. - Top - End - #393
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Feilith View Post
    Wait, we're returning?
    You bet!



    Right after this brief word from our sponsors...

    Tucker's Kobold Burgers, they grill up nice and scaly... *change channel* On this season of Faerunian Idol... *change channel* Be sure to catch CSI: Sharn, Tuesdays at 9! *change channel* Call 1-900-FINEFEY to speak to lonely local dryads now. You're guaranteed to be barking up the right tree. *changes channel, gets up to get a snack*
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2013-08-09 at 04:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  4. - Top - End - #394
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    switch channel
    preorder your next secret ingredient now at kuulwon'ttell.com and get a 30% discount only in the next 30 minutes...

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    changes channel
    Wanting more spice in your life? Tired of the same bland restrictions, try Scrap-Iron Chef, for all your insanity based needs!
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    You're a frickin' ninja below me, too!? You got mad skills, Vknight.
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    Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)
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    You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
    "Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    *Changes channel* Feeling a little banged up from defending allthose innocent peasents from some random evil guy? Or maybe just picked up the wrong item and found yourself cursed. Have no fear the clerics of Pelor have just the healing spell for you! Whether you need a curse lifted or any level of wounds healed we have what you need! All procedes go to the church. You won't find a better deal anywhere!

    *Gets a paper cut* Dam there goes 50gp
    Last edited by Feilith; 2013-08-09 at 05:14 PM.
    A True Paladin

  7. - Top - End - #397
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    The Viscount's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    You bet!



    Right after this brief word from our sponsors...

    Tucker's Kobold Burgers, they grill up nice and scaly... *change channel* On this season of Faerunian Idol... *change channel* Be sure to catch CSI: Sharn, Tuesdays at 9! *change channel* Call 1-900-FINEFEY to speak to lonely local dryads now. You're guaranteed to be barking up the right tree. *changes channel, gets up to get a snack*
    All of this is just awesome.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  8. - Top - End - #398
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    All of this is just awesome.
    Yeah, but I've created a monster. A beautiful monster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  9. - Top - End - #399
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    ...and of course I talked a big game and got back to my office, only to get hit with a two and a half hour meeting. Heading home to take out the dogs, scores WILL be up tonight in hopefully short order. Sorry to get everyone's hopes up! Scores soon, I promise!
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

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  10. - Top - End - #400
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    ...and of course I talked a big game and got back to my office, only to get hit with a two and a half hour meeting. Heading home to take out the dogs, scores WILL be up tonight in hopefully short order. Sorry to get everyone's hopes up! Scores soon, I promise!
    So long as you get them up, you're forgiven.

  11. - Top - End - #401
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Sorry for the delay, all. Scores, finally!

    As a note: I gave pretty low UoSI scores overall here. This speaks more to the difficulty of the ingredient than to anyone's build in particular. I find that secret ingredients that are primarily defensive in nature are tougher than usual to do well here, because it's hard to really single out why these defenses did well for YOUR build in particular, rather than just being nice things to have. I considered grading on a curve by focusing primarily on the "active" abilities of the SI, but in the end I decided it was fairer to keep things as is. Just something to keep in mind when looking at the overall low UoSI scores.


    Also, something else to keep in mind - I mentioned this in my rubric, but I tend to consider 3 a "baseline" build. Here is my example of a baseline build that would get a perfect 12:

    • A build that steers clear of the super obvious choices, but doesn't necessarily do anything super new or exciting.
    • A build that is able to contribute in most level appropriate counters on a moderately optimized party.
    • A build that would be accepted at most tables without raising too many eyebrows.
    • A build that uses most of the secret ingredient's abilities, but only moderately so.


    As a result, my scores tend to hover around that magic 12 mark. Just something to keep in mind, as I don't do the itemized scoring like OMG PONIES.

    No more talk. Scores!

    The Grasping Mist (10.5)
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    Originality (3.5)
    Ethereal filcher is certainly interesting, although beyond that, I see a fairly straightforward roguish character. I’m not going to penalize you for essential choices like Darkstalker and Staggering Strike, but I’m not going to give you a great bonus for originality, either. The ethereal approach is a fun take, but beyond that, you’ve got a fairly stock stealth/SA-focused character.

    Power (3)
    You’ve got fantastic stealth - Darkstalker and max ranks are nice (and the minimum required to be a successful stealth build, IMO), but etherealness at will is what really pushes you over the top. It also makes you very hard to control or contain. You’ve also got some nice ways of harrying enemies, most notably SoH and Staggering Strike.

    Your damage is below par, though. It would have been nice to see Craven snuck in somewhere. Even with five attacks, +3d6 sneak attack on its own just doesn’t really cut it at the higher levels. You also have no way of dealing with SA-immune enemies. Even if you were only planning on facing down fey enemies, you’ll have major issues with anyone with concealment, and gods forbid you come up against something undead. Also, I’m not sure TWF really fits in with your supposed fighting style - you seem like you would do far better with hit-and-run tactics. I have trouble seeing you actually trade full attacks with anyone, given how fragile you are (see below).

    Defensively, the SI’s spell list and boosts to Will help you out here, but I’m a little concerned about your sturdiness. You’re starting with a Con of 10 (hard to be helped considering how many ability scores you rely on), and your highest hit die is a d8. You’re not going to last long in a fight, and you don’t have the offensive output to take enemies out in one round. Staggering Strike helps, but I’m not sure it’s enough.

    Elegance (2.5)
    Fairly straightforward build - 5 racial hit die, five levels in a base class, ten levels in the secret ingredient. You get a minor ding for not qualifying for Obscuring Shadow Veil (it requires two Shadow Hand maneuvers as a pre-requisite, which you do not have). But other than that and the race itself, you make pretty straightforward choices that would be welcome at most tables.

    Here’s the thing about that racial choice, though - I’m still not actually convinced that the ethereal filcher template class is playable. Ethereal filcher is an LA -- creature, and the article doesn’t give it one. In fact, the article and series the template class comes from is about making monsters for the PCs to fight, not about making monsters playable. The description specifically says that the reason for the savage progression is so that DMs can design ethereal filchers that have not yet reached maturity, for when the PCs are raiding a nest. Add to that the fact that there’s nothing in the entire description that mentions this is playable, there’s no LA (despite advancing HD at each level), but there IS a challenge rating and... well, you get the picture.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2)
    You haven’t really sold me on why Cold Iron Warrior works for you.

    You get solid use out of the spells, which work well alongside etherealness to make you difficult to target until you choose to engage. However, beyond that, almost all of your tactics rely on your racial choice or your sneak attack. Mediocre Wisdom means you don’t get much benefit from Unmaking Magic, one of the few unique class features of the Cold Iron Warrior. You don’t do anything with the smiting (and again, mediocre stats means that it’s not really that great out of the box). You haven’t used any of the abilities in new or interesting ways. Again, the spellcasting is nice for some defensive boosts, but I really don’t see that you’re gaining much with taking the Secret Ingredient. It just feels very tacked on to me.


    Talsum the Dark-Hunter (10.25)
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    Originality (3.5)
    I did not expect assassin, and I didn’t think we’d see much duskblade except maybe as an entry point into abjurant champion. Seeing a build actually try to use arcane channeling is interesting, though.

    Beyond that... nothing really new or exciting here. The Mage Slayer line is a nice thematic fit, although mechanically it actually hurts you far worse than it helps you.

    Power (1.5)
    Oof, I’m sorry, but I have to hit you hard in this column. You’ve got close to full BAB, but you have terrible damage, wielding a subpar weapon, making a single attack per round, and no real bonus damage beyond +4d6 sneak attack at level 20 - that’s an average of 14 extra damage, assuming the enemy is vulnerable and you can pull it off, against foes that have an average of 442 HP at CR 20.

    Then we’ve got the Mage Slayer line of feats. Cool concept, does not work at all for this. Mage Slayer itself doesn’t combine well with Spring Attack, as the latter expects that you’ll be moving out of the range of your enemies and hence not threatening them. But the bigger problem is that you’re killing your caster level. With -8 to your CL for all spells and spell-like abilities, you will have a CL that is literally too low to cast the majority of your spells. It’s actually in the negative levels for your duskblade and assassin spells! So, you’ll be casting level 1 Cold Iron Warrior spells, and no spells at all from Duskblade or Assassin, making this build lose a lot of oomph.

    It gets worse, though. The Mage Slayer line reduces your CL for SLAs as well. That means that your dispel magic SLA will have such a laughably low caster level that you won’t be able to use it on anything you come up against!

    That lack of synergy comes up again and again. You’ve got the Mage Slayer line on a build with three casting classes. You’ve got standard action channeling, but no real spells to channel, and you can’t use it alongside Spring Attack. You’ve got sneak attack but just a splash, and no Craven, Staggering Strike, ability to penetrate concealment or SA immunities, etc. You’ve got some stealth skills but no real way to utilize them. You can craft poisons, but that’s a terrible cost sink unless you’re harvesting the base material yourself, and your end bonus isn’t even high enough to craft the best poisons. You splash your toe into skills like UMD that need a heavy investment to work properly. I just have difficulty seeing this build contribute effectively in almost any party.

    Elegance (3.75)
    I find the Mage Slayer/three casting classes and the arcane channeling/Spring Attack combos supremely inelegant, but I won’t ding you for them here, since you already took a hit in power for that. Beyond that, there’s nothing here that a DM would balk at. I would imagine this will fit fine in just about any campaign.

    You get a slight ding for not swapping your initial duskblade/rogue levels - I think starting with rogue is just a much cleaner option, even if it does mean waiting until level 3 to nab Weapon Finesse. (Don’t most people start out using ranged weapons at the low levels anyhow? Or is that just me?)

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (1.5)
    I’m sorry, but many of your choices actually made this ingredient actively worse for you. You can’t cast most of the spells, you don’t do well with dispelling. Mediocre Wisdom means you don’t get much benefit from Unmaking Magic, one of the few unique class features of the Cold Iron Warrior. You don’t do anything with the smiting, and your non-existent Charisma hurts here as well. Some of the passive bonuses don’t hurt, but they also don’t do anything special for you, either. I feel like this build would have done far better with anything else with full BAB.


    Khair Ostern (14.5)
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    Originality (4)
    I was expected someone to pick up the Inquisition domain, most likely via Church Inquisitor, but the monkish approach is pretty fun. Divine Defiance is something I was hoping to see here, and you definitely used it well. Shiba Protector is a natural adjunct with the Wisdom synergy and monk levels, but it still was not something I’d expected to see.

    Power (4)
    Well, let’s start by looking at your main schtick, dispelling. Good Wisdom synergy, Church Inquisitor and Divine Defiance means you’re actually pretty good at that end of things, although it takes a little while for all of that to come online.

    On the offensive side of things, you start off very slow. You’re behind a standard cleric spells-wise and don’t have anything to really make up for that, and your melee doesn’t really get up to snuff until level 10. Once it does, you’re... OK, I guess? Spells help, but you don’t get very many of them, and almost nothing that will actually help you much in melee (Divine Power is not so great when you have to spend a standard action to use it, you only get two fourth level spells, and you aren’t using a two-handed weapon to benefit from the strength boost).

    I also just feel like this build loses a lot for taking so many levels in the SI, when you could continue with sacred fist and get so much more. Even Unmaking Magic, which works really well for your build, is actually no better than just using Greater Dispel with a full caster level.

    I actually like this build a lot, but I feel like it could have done with some focus. You spend a lot of resources trying to become a credible melee threat, but don’t really succeed in the end, and I guess I feel like those same resources could have been put to better use.

    Elegance (3)
    Shiba protector requires you to be a human of the Phoenix clan, a requirement that appears to be ignored here. In general, it just feels out of place, as does sacred fist.

    Using cloistered cleric as a melee base is the example explicitly called out as inelegant. That said, I've never really liked that "rule," so I'm not going to actively ding you for it. Still, it's there.

    In general, there’s not much that’s super objectionable about this build, but there’s also nothing that cries out elegance to me. So shall we call it a wash?

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (3.5)
    You get excellent use out of Unmaking Magic and the dispelling features, so kudos there. Unfortunately your cleric base does hurt you as far as the spells go, though, as they end up comparing poorly to what you would have gotten if you had remained a cleric. Also, some of the defensive abilities are a bit marginalized because you delay access until ECL 11.

    Overall I’m giving a positive score here, because what you do use, you use quite well - you make a reasonable case for why you’re taking the SI. However, several of the abilities are outright ignored, you don’t have the stats to take advantage of others, and I feel like you could have slipped out after level 5, taken more sacred fist, and ended up doing a better job at fulfilling your main concept.

    To keep the chef analogy, I found myself annoyed that you put so much of the secret ingredient on the plate, since you only ended up using a small portion of it. What you did use was tasty, but why clutter up the rest of the dish with unnecessary bits?


    Calista Ecanus (11.5)
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    Originality (5)
    I expected ranger as an entry point, but you don’t really take enough of it to get dinged here. I didn’t expect druid, however, and... is that blighter? Wait, seriously? And you’re focused on undead wild shape? OK, that’s actually pretty cool, and certainly enough to spark my interest and keep me reading.

    Power (2)
    Hmm. There may be a reason why we don’t see much blighter, and it’s becoming apparent in this build.

    First of all, there’s the fact that you end up setting several levels on fire in order to take it. That’s pretty rough. You mention undead wild shape, but it really isn’t very good, especially since you can only become a medium animal skeleton with it. A single 4th-level spell per day is also pretty sad.

    I'm really not sure what Reckless Offense, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are getting you. They aren't hooked up to anything, and the benefits they provide are minimal. Your spell DCs will be low regardless thanks to the fact that you exclusively use low-level spells, and your split Wis/Cha focus. And Plant Defiance is just so situational, considering how few plant creatures there are all told.

    In general you seem well behind the curve as far as power goes. In your description you call yourself a front-line fighter, but you are anything but. The only interesting thing you can do is blightfire, and its damage stops being impressive very rapidly, alas.

    Elegance (2.5)
    I’m really not a fan of lesser aasimar. They’ve always bugged me, and I think the bonuses they grant are inconsistent with other races. They’re legal, so you’re not really getting hit for it, but boy do I dislike them.

    Your source list is incomplete. You also pick up multiclass penalties, as neither ranger nor druid is a favored class for lesser aasimar. However, you do qualify for everything you take, which is at least a balancing point that keeps you from getting hit too hard here.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2)
    I don’t really see why you’ve taken the secret ingredient at all here. Your build seems to have more to do with undead wild shape and spells, both of which would be progressed better by more levels in blighter than by taking the SI. You don’t do anything interesting or special with the SI’s class features; instead, they’re just kind of there, with a brief description of why they’re nice to have when you’re fighting fey. Well sure, I assume that’s true for every build here - what I need to know is why they work well with YOUR build in particular. You also don’t take any levels in the class until ECL 11, which marginalizes the abilities you do get.

    You do at least have a halfway decent Wisdom mod and a positive Charisma score, though. And I guess if you’re spending your time in undead wild shape, then being able to treat your attacks as cold iron is handy. Still, this build just seems like cold iron warrior is being taken for the flavor alone, and none of the crunch actually helps you much.


    Shoure (14.5)
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    Originality (4.5)
    Hmm, this takes things in a totally different direction than I’d expected. I thought we’d see some Inquisition domain use, and builds that would pull smiting from other sources, but beyond that your build went off in a totally unexpected direction. Holy armor plus dragonscale husk plus monk’s belt is cheeky and worth a small boost as well.

    Power (3.75)
    You’ve got flight and some nice defenses, and you’re actually decent at dispelling, so that’s a plus. Offensively the build does leave a fair bit to be desired, though.

    On the counterspelling side, Wisdom focus plus Unmaking Magic plus Divine Defiance plus the Inquisition domain does well for you, even if you’re stuck with the bog-standard dispel magic. I’d have liked to see the cleric levels come online earlier, but even without it you’re still pretty solid in this regard.

    For all of your defenses, though, you have some weak spots. Deflect Arrows is actually not a very good defense against archery, because it is only once per round and archers tend to fire off a lot more than that. You also fare considerably worse against enemies that fly. And I don’t actually buy the idea that non-targeted spells are “worthless” - fireball might be, but what about wall of thorns, or solid fog, or black tentacles, or cloudkill, or any number of other similar effects?

    Finally, you’ve got some decent debuffing, but other than that you’re limited offensively - once you dispel an enemy’s buffs, there’s very little you can do beyond make some strafing attacks that won’t necessarily be all that effective. I don’t feel quite comfortable giving this build a 4, but it is a little more versatile than 3.5 by my rubric, so I’ll split the difference and call it 3.75.

    Elegance (1.75)
    Yup, Otyugh Hole gets an elegance penalty from me, sorry. As you suggested, moving on.

    You’ve got a few mechanical issues as well. You’re picking up multiclassing penalties - wood elf does not have paladin as a favored class. You don’t qualify for Intuitive Attack, as you do not have BAB +1 when you take it. Your skill points are off slightly - you can’t actually have 3 ranks in knowledge (nature) at second level, as it is not a class skill for monk (2.5 ranks is your maximum).

    Regarding your dragonscale husk trick, it’s clever, but let’s take a closer look at it. You’re saying that the dragonscale husk, which says that it does not stack with any armor class bonus from a feat, class or other special ability, should still stack with the monk’s belt because it’s an item, rather than a feat or class? Despite the fact that it simply grants you the AC bonus of a (monk level+5) monk? OK, fine, let’s say I buy that - if that’s the case, then Holy Armor should not stack with it, as it only works with the AC bonus from your monk levels. You can’t have it both ways, counting it as a class feature for one ability and the bonus from an item for another. (There’s also the fact that it adds a level of item dependance to your build.)

    You do stick to a theme, and your entry is straightforward and well-written, so you get some bonuses there (including the quarter-point I reserve for particularly well presented entries - only two entries got that bonus this round), but mechanically this build would have to see several changes before sitting down at most tables.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (4.5)
    You do fairly well here, making excellent use of Unmaking Magic and the dispelling aspect of the Secret Ingredient with your Wisdom focus, the inquisition domain and Divine Defiance. You also get a little bit extra out of your smiting, and you make a good argument for why the defensive abilities aid your build in particular. You’re also one of the few builds to do something interesting with the spellcasting, rather than just have it sit there.


    Al'laab Thump (11.25)
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    Originality (2.5)
    Were-camel is definitely cute, so you’ll get a little boost for that. That said, beyond the fact that you’re playing a camel, this is a pretty bog-standard build, complete with pounce barbarian and fighter dips. You deviate from the norm in a couple of small ways, but overall this build does not really do anything new or interesting with any of its abilities. If this wasn’t a were-camel I’d give it a 2, but the were-camel is odd enough that I’ll add in another half point.

    Power (3.75)
    Well, this style of build is a standard for a reason. You can put out some pretty solid damage between pounce, PA/Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, and your considerable Strength score. Levels in the secret ingredient don’t terribly dilute your build, giving you some magical defenses as well.

    Outside of your area of expertise - well, that’s a little tougher. Defensively, while the SI helps shore up your mental fortitude, you’re still pretty weak on this front. Robilar’s Gambit and Shock Trooper is also a painful combination, and since Robilar’s bonus attacks resolve after you are hit, and you have no way of mitigating the damage, you get a small deduction for that one.

    Elegance (2.5)
    The build only has one mechanical issue that I’ve found - you have Leap Attack taken as a fighter bonus feat, but Leap Attack is not actually a fighter feat. You get a small ding on that end, but other than that, the build looks fairly straightforward, so that’s a plus. Nothing here that really makes me sit back and say wow, but overall fine.

    You also get a minor ding for playing an afflicted lycanthrope voluntarily - I understand that it’s listed as an available option, but that means somehow getting into a situation where your character is bitten by an existing were-camel, and you’re spending a good chunk of time before you can even successfully control your character, because Control Shape isn’t reliable enough yet. Not only that, there’s the fact that afflicted lycanthropes are actually supposed to be unaware of their condition until circumstances reveal it (and can’t take ranks in Control Shape until aware). Basically, there are all of these downsides that would be manifest in an actual game to make up for the lower level adjustment, but those downsides don’t really show up in this contest.

    Either of those alone wouldn’t be worth much, but combined I’d say it drops you down a half-point below average.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2.5)
    Again, we’ve got a build that sort of benefits from some of the class features, but doesn’t really actively use them. I’ll give you a small boost for Quicken SLA, so you can debuff and still pounce, and the mental defenses are nice so that you don’t slaughter your teammates faster than they can say charm monster, but beyond that, you haven’t sold me on why the SI is good for your build in particular, as opposed to any others.


    Captain Fraxinus (15.25)
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    Originality (3)
    Ranger was an expected entry point, wildshape ranger doubly so. Dread commando feels fresh, however, and Magic Disruption is a reserve feat that I’ve completely forgotten about, so that’s fun. Let’s call it a wash, shall we?

    Power (3.5)
    So, we’ve got a stealthy build that sneaks around, primarily scouting, with a few nice debuffs. Your damage isn’t spectacular despite full BAB and some minor sudden strike damage, but your stealth is pretty decent - Darkstalker and max ranks are more or less the minimum required to be passable at this role, and your wild shaping abilities push you over the edge on this end. Your spells help as well.

    Ordinarily I’m not a fan of the Champion of the Wild ACF, as it means you can’t even use wands, but in your case it actually works. The bonus feat really does help, and the SI’s spells make up for the lack.

    That being said, while you’ve got some fun utility, your options in combat are pretty limited. Magic Disruption is a cool idea, and I like the tactics you’ve outlined, but it’s actually pretty underwhelming - even if they fail their concentration save, it’s only a minor debuff.

    Power Attack is nice, and it definitely helps keep your score up, but Power Attack alone doesn’t make you a combat build. I keep thinking that there needs to be some more oomph in this build that a rearranging of feats could have helped fix. You could have picked up some additional debuffing with something like Staggering Strike, or Awesome Smite to take advantage of both your racial smite and your fey version, or Elusive Target/Sidestep to add some more battlefield mobility options. Any of those would have helped you get a higher score in this category.

    Finally, I didn’t ding for this, but no Arcane Hunter? It would fit in fine with the theme, and you could still take fey as a favored enemy later.

    Elegance (4.75)
    Honestly, I just really like this build. It has a very clean and streamlined feel to it, and I could see just about any table allowing it.

    Your entry was also well presented and easy to read, with a short but still engaging fluff piece, clean layout, and easy to read breakdown of abilities. As such, I’m giving it the small bonus I reserve for exceptionally well-presented builds.

    You don’t get full points in this category, as you don’t qualify for Improved Favored Enemy. Champion of the Wild does not include the clause that the other ranger bonus feats have, which allows you to take the feat even if you don’t meet the prerequisite, and your BAB is not high enough to take it at level 4.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (4)
    You managed to eke out some extra mileage from the spellcasting thanks to Magic Disruption, and the smites actually do well for you, especially since you’ve got a high enough Charisma to actually benefit from them and can combine them with your racial smite. The dispelling is a nice feature for a scout to have, as well. Cold iron is more useful for you than most because of your time spent in wild shape. Finally, you are one of the few builds to actually pick up most of the SI’s class abilities early enough that they weren’t completely marginalized in usefulness by the time you got them.

    You haven’t fully sold me on every ability - but you feel like a Cold Iron Warrior in a way that a lot of the other builds don’t, and so you do well here.


    Ourevel Moonshadow (13)
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    Originality (2.5)
    I feel like we see Hexblade or Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Secret Ingredient 10 every time we get a full BAB class, sometimes even multiple iterations of it. It’s a solid build skeleton, I suppose, but it has long since passed the point where I can call it original.

    I always love to see heritage feats, so the Fey Heritage/Fey Legacy was a nice touch. Other than that, nothing too exciting, though.

    Power (3.75)
    Your build is alright, power-wise - full BAB, Power Attack/Awesome Smite (although I would have liked to see another source of smiting for the latter, since otherwise this is a pretty situational ability to eat up a precious feat slot), and some OK spellcasting tricks. The fact that you can apply most of your abjurant champion class features to your Cold Iron Warrior spell list is the real kicker here, because your hexblade casting is really not even worth mentioning.

    The build is very much a late bloomer, though. You’re a pretty bog-standard build without a lot to do until you start taking levels in abjurant champion, and I would say it’s not until ECL 18 or so that I really feel like things are coming together for you.

    You mention charm person when hunting feys, but beware - it doesn’t actually work on them.

    Vengeful Surge is thematically cool, but it’s honestly a waste of a feat slot. It’s a conditional Weapon Specialization, basically. There are far more useful feats that could be going in this slot.

    Elegance (4)
    Another straightforward build, with everything clear and legal, no questionable rules, and able to be placed into almost any group.

    My biggest qualm from an elegance perspective, however, is that the build seems to progress in fits and starts - you abandon hexblade just as it starts getting interesting, then you spend a long time developing the secret ingredient before going into abjurant champion toward the end of your progression, which finally has the pieces to tie everything together. I know it looks pretty on a table the way you have things laid out, but I honestly would have found it more elegant if you had taken some of your abjurant champion levels earlier. It’s not enough to really penalize you for, and you still do well in this category (it’s hard to argue with base class 5/secret ingredient 10/five-level PrC 5 in an even progression like that), but it’s there.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2.75)
    You get a lot of mileage out of the casting thanks to abjurant champion, and you also pick up the fun Awesome Smiting to improve your actual smites. (I would have liked to see some other source of smiting to tie in with this as well, since smiting fey is unfortunately situational, but you can’t have it all, I suppose.) Beyond that... I feel like I’m saying this a lot, but you haven’t necessarily sold me on how these other class features work well for YOUR build, rather than any others.


    Jasper (12.5)
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    Originality (4)
    Hey, a ghost without the savage progression! Thank goodness - I hate the savage progression of ghost.

    Crusader was NOT an expected entry point at all. I thought we’d see several warblades, and maybe a swordsage or two for Wisdom synergy, but crusader took me by surprise. And I’d never even thought of combining it with ghost, so that’s pretty nice. Beyond that - well, you’ve taken the standard ghostly feats, so nothing too new and exciting, but the build still was unexpected.

    Power (4)
    Your ghostly abilities are, as expected, pretty nice - there’s just a lot in the game that can’t deal with something incorporeal or ethereal, and you add on some nice powerful offensive and debuffing options from the template as well.

    Crusader is nice in the early game, but it really isn’t strong enough on its own to support you beyond that, and no Extra Granted Maneuver hurts you. Picking up Martial Study or more levels in Crusader later in the game would have gone a long way to helping you.

    On the choice of feats, Vengeful Surge rears its ugly head again. Listen, I know that this is a thematically appropriate choice, but I really don’t think this is a very good feat. The bonus is fairly conditional, and what it gives you isn’t even all that good. It’s like a Weapon Specialization that only sometimes applies (and you can’t even control when it does).

    Also, two feats is a lot to dedicate to smiting, considering that you can only use it versus fey. Once again, I feel like sticking around for another few levels of crusader would have helped here - then the feats would have also worked alongside your crusader smites, which would make them a lot more useful.

    Still, you’re carried by ghost, which is strong enough on its own to give you a variety of options every encounter.

    Elegance (2.5)
    You don’t list what maneuvers and stances you’ve taken. I can more or less piece it together based on your description, but still, that’s kind of a thing.

    That massive LA makes the build literally unplayable for a surprisingly large portion of the game, but other than that, the build qualifies for everything it takes, and should be acceptable at most tables.

    I also have to give you a small ding for how front-loaded everything is. You get the majority of your interesting abilities very early on, and then you just seem to go through the motions for the rest of your career. It’s tough to have a nice, even progression on a build, but doing so would have netted you a more elegant build overall. (This wasn’t an active penalty, just an explanation as to why you didn’t get more points despite the simplicity of the build.)

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2)
    Ghost does 90% of the heavy lifting on this build, and most of what you have is dedicated to making ghost work, rather than making Cold Iron Warrior work. This is especially notable because being a ghost actually makes several of the CIW bonuses irrelevant to you.

    You do get a lot out of the smiting, although many of the spells and abilities don’t actually help you much, thanks to you being a ghost. Other abilities aren’t completely invalidated, but they don’t necessarily work better for your build than any other. I can’t help but think that you’d have been a better fey-smiter if you’d just stuck it out with crusader...


    James Thou-Shalt-Break-Them-With-A-Rod-Of-Iron Ferrifer (12.5)
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    Originality (3)
    Pixie paladin is a classic, and this is no exception. The focus on turn-based feats is nice, though - I expected Divine Might, but some of the others caught me by surprise. Trying to split between ranged and melee was also a route I didn’t think we’d see.

    So, while you don’t do anything I haven’t seen before, I’ll go ahead and call it even as far as originality goes.

    Power (3.5)
    Well, you’ve got a fair bit of built in power just from being a pixie, although that power does come with a pretty significant cost, especially in the very early and very late levels. Still, once your ECL reaches the mid-levels, a pixie is a beast to deal with.

    Your melee combat is OK, with a solid smiting focus, Power Attack, Divine Might, etc., and like almost every build here, you do wind up with +16 BAB, despite the high LA. Low Strength does hurt it, though. You claim that you’re also a ranged character, but you don’t really have anything to support it - Divine Might is basically it. I think I actually would have preferred a straight melee focus, rather than trying to pull yourself in so many directions.

    I like the turning feats, but Divine Shield looks like it’s not doing you much here. It requires a standard action to activate, and it lasts for ROUNDS per level, not minutes per level, meaning you can only use it in combat. Spending a standard action in combat for +7 to AC is not really going to be a great use of actions.

    You are also over-selling how survivable the pixie is at low levels. Considering that your HP will be low enough that you’ll die from a single area attack, even if an enemy can’t see you, and that you haven’t dedicated anything to Move Silently to prevent people from just straight-up listening to find out where you are, is a problem.

    Elegance (3.25)
    Nothing too objectionable here. The feat choices are all pretty straightforward, as are the class choices. The build isn’t making me weep with beauty, but it’s simple and focused and shouldn’t be a problem at most tables, assuming you’re not starting at ECL 1. You don’t qualify for Knowledge Devotion, so you do get a small ding there.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2.75)
    You get a lot of mileage out of the smites with your super-charged Charisma and Extra Smiting, and you have the Wisdom to take advantage of Unmaking Magic, so you definitely get some pluses there. The rest of the features... they’re nice, I guess, but not really doing anything that special for you. I’ll go ahead and throw in another quarter point for using the SI’s spells to make up for Holy Warrior taking away your paladin spells, I guess, but beyond that, most of the class features aren’t really touched.


    Gilles de Rais-Loquart (14.5)
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    Originality (3.5)
    Warblade was an expected entry, thanks to solid melee synergy and Iron Will as a bonus feat. I’m honestly surprised we didn’t see more of it. That being said, Zhentarim Spy was not expected at all, and I’d never really thought of combining Zhentarim Spy with warblade in general.

    Power (4.5)
    You’ve got a pretty solid melee character with a fair bit of utility. On the combat side, Power Attack, Stormguard Warrior and a few decent maneuvers help your offense, and you have a good mix of defensive maneuevers and abilities as well. Meanwhile, Zhent Spy gives you oodles on the social front. Very nice. The only downside I see is that your MADness mitigates some of this - low Strength hurts you on the melee front, and low Charisma on the social side of things.

    I’d have liked to see more done with Stormguard Warrior - combat rhythm in particular has a lot of potential, but here it’s pretty much just, “hey, if you’re up against a foe with high AC, here’s a nice way to take him down a notch.” Also, Education seems like a poor feat choice here, just to pick up a single knowledge skill that you don’t even max. Knowledge devotion could have done this and provided you a mechanical benefit as well.

    Finally, I keep asking myself why this build didn’t take more warblade. For instance, why bother with the last level of the SI at all? Taking another level of warblade instead would have saved you a pair of feats and lost you next to nothing.

    Elegance (4.5)
    Nothing really to complain about here - the build is solid, straightforward, and manages to progress in power in a fairly even way. There are no questionable rules or mechanical errors involved, and the build should be welcome at any table. And as with Fraxinus, Ourevel, etc., it’s hard to argue with two completed prestige classes and a single base class.

    The one thing that feels off here is blowing two feats on class entry at first level that just get abandoned, though. It makes sense mechanically, but they end up feeling out of place in the build. It’s not huge, but it just makes the build feel clunky early on - a shame, because otherwise it is fairly smooth. So I won’t give you full points, but you’ll do well.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2)
    I really like this build, I enjoyed the story and I think it’s well put together overall. That said, I don’t really feel like it’s a Cold Iron Warrior build.

    I’ve expressed this issue a lot, and it’s a tough one to overcome - I think these have been overall the lowest UotSI scores I’ve given across the board. But in particular, Gilles seems to suffer more for having the build than not. Zhentarim Spy actually covers many of the mental bonuses the SI gives you, and you don’t have the stats to benefit from several of the other abilities. All the SI really offers you is a couple of dispels and a crippling case of Multiple Ability Dependency. You could have made the same exact build, with the same flavor, only far stronger, by subbing in more warblade levels.


    Project 7a (13.5)
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    Originality (4)
    Ranger was an expected entry point, wild shape ranger doubly so. Beyond that, though... this build actually goes in completely different directions than I’d expected. Stalker of Kharash, Witch Slayer, and one of the rare Ghostwalk FE feats that everybody seems to forget about. The idea of a robot defender sniffing out evil is just a totally unexpected way to take the SI. You end up doing surprisingly well despite taking the single most expected entry method.

    Power (4)
    So, you’ve got a heavy focus on favored enemies, in particular arcane hunter. You have some cool detection methods, turning you into a fun pseudo-scout. You have decent utility in general, with a mix of stealth and perception skills, wild shape and your Stalker/SI abilities. Witch Slayer adds on a few more nice defenses, including Mettle.

    You’re a bit underwhelming in combat, though. For all your smiting and favored enemies, you’re still going to have a lot of trouble keeping up level appropriate damage. Really, the only time you are around where you need to be is at level 5 when you can take a fleshraker form, but while that’s pretty cool at ECL 5, it loses much of its oomph fast.

    You’re putting a lot into arcane hunter, which ordinarily I would approve of heartily - except that as a stalker of kharash, you also get FE (evil), which seems like an even better choice to dedicate to! I’m not actively dinging for this, I just find it odd, especially when you consider that many fey are not actually going to trigger arcane hunter, unless they have class levels.

    Elegance (3.25)
    Otyugh Hole. Sorry, going to have to ding you for that. It’s entirely DM-dependent and no better in my eyes than using an item to qualify for the SI. Also, there is a difference between a warforged slam or other natural attack and an unarmed strike.

    Other than those two issues, no real problems - the build works, it qualifies for what it takes, and in general I don’t see any real issues.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2.25)
    I guess I’m having trouble seeing much of what CIW gives you over more Stalker of Kharash. They both give you spells and full BAB and smiting, while the latter gives you significantly better skills, more useful smiting, HiPS and the fairly unique “track evil” feature.

    As far as the main class features of the SI are concerned, you can benefit from smiting OK thanks to a decent Charisma, but you can’t do much with it. The cold iron is nice, especially since you’ll be in wild shape most of the time. A couple of dispels per day aren’t doing anything for you that you don’t get better from Witch Slayer, especially since you just barely get enough Wisdom to garner any benefit from Unmaking Magic. The passive defensive boosts are nice, but nothing about them is nice for your build in particular. You don’t see to do much with the spells, and if you had stayed in Stalker you would have gotten more ranger spells to make up for it.


    Sir Broderick (14.25)
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    Originality (4.5)
    You know, even though I expected to see lots of warblades because of Iron Will as a bonus feat, I completely forgot that knights also grant it, so this one took me by surprise. It’s actually a nice entry point into the SI, all things considered. Vengeance Knight is one of those classes I keep completely forgetting exists, so that’s also one that I did not expect. I also like the shield focus.

    Power (3)
    You’re a melee character with almost full BAB and Power Attack, so that’s a nice start. However, your focus on shields means that you actually aren’t getting very good return out of PA (a little playing around with a power attack calculator tells me that the feat actually isn’t worth it more than half the time if you’re only getting 1-1 returns). Bringer of Vengeance is also far more limited than you’re describing it. It doesn’t apply to all of your “most hated foes” - instead, it specifically only applies to enemies of the Knights of the Shield, and you can’t choose this enemy freely (it has to be given to you by an agent of the Knights). In any case, considering that it’s only a +1 bonus, even if you could choose it freely, it wouldn’t have a huge impact.

    In exchange for this drop in offense, you’ve got some utility and defensive abilities to help bring you in. The defensive abilities are definitely nice. However, there are some issues on this end as well. The problem with multiclassing out of knight so early is that your DCs are based on your knight levels, which means you’ll have serious problems keeping them up as the game progresses.

    Expansion doesn’t really help you at all, because you manifest it as a 1st level manifester, meaning you can’t augment it and it only lasts a single round. That means it really doesn’t have much of an impact on your bulwark of defense at all.

    There are a lot of cool shield-related things you can do once you take the pre-reqs of Improved Shield Bash. They could have added a lot to your build, bringing in a control and even a debuffing element that it lacks. Awesome Smite helps a little, but it would have been nice if you had another source of smiting so that you could use it against something other than just fey. Imperious Command is always great, but you don’t take it until ECL 15, by which time fear immunity is commonplace.

    Finally, I didn’t ding you for this, but why not try to fit in at least one more level of vengeance knight for arcane backlash? It seems like a perfect fit thematically, and would work especially well considering your beefed up saving throws.

    Elegance (3.75)
    Knight, iron mind and vengeance knight all flow nicely together, and they even make a weird sort of sense alongside the SI. You don’t do anything particularly questionable, and you qualify for almost everything you take. You do get a small ding for not qualifying for Azure Talent when you take it, but beyond that, you do solidly here.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (3)
    Considering that your build is all about defensiveness and survival, I’m inclined to give you a boost for taking advantage of the more defensive elements of the SI. You also manage to get a little bit of mileage out of smiting, with a decent Charisma and Awesome Smite.

    Beyond that, though, the secret ingredient isn’t a huge part of your build. Fluff-wise, it’s an excellent fit, but most of the actual abilities aren’t really relevant for your build in particular. The secret ingredient certainly doesn’t hurt your dish, but it isn’t the highlight, either, and when I look at your build I find myself wondering why you didn’t drop more levels from it in favor of other classes. The class doesn’t feel as out of place as it does on some other builds, so I’ll call it in as an even score, but it still feels like you could have done more...
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2013-08-09 at 09:44 PM.
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

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  12. - Top - End - #402
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Jillian Feykiller (8.25)
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    Originality (2)
    Ranger was an expected entry, wildshape ranger doubly so. I guess the bloodline focus was unexpected, as was the focus on running up the walls and spring attacking, but... honestly, this build doesn’t really do anything fresh or exciting, and rather than setting your build apart, I feel like the odd choices just kind of hang there. There’s no real flavor here other than “hey, she’s a fey who kills fey,” and there’s not really any crunch here, either. It’s just a stock ranger/cold iron warrior with some fey abilities.

    Power (1.5)
    For all your bloodlines and templates, you don’t seem to be able to actually do much. Your utility is more or less restricted to a few skills with no external support and wild shape 1/day. You are making one attack with no sources of damage bonus, not even a reasonable Strength score.

    I’d argue that ranger, with better skills and an additional use of wild shape, would have actually been far more useful than your fighter dip, which pretty much just gives you Improved Initiative.

    You’re a build that can fly.... and yet you spent three feats on the Spring Attack chain and two feats to run up walls. Again, you can fly. You could have replaced all five feats with Flyby Attack and called it a day, doing something useful with the remaining four. Heck, even replacing them all with Toughness would have been better than this, especially when you consider how much better Flyby Attack is than Spring Attack even when you DON’T have to take two mediocre feats to qualify.

    Unfortunately, I can’t see this build properly contributing to a party, even a lower tier one.

    Elegance (2.75)
    Bloodlines are explicitly discouraged in the rubric, but you use them tastefully here, so I’m not going to ding you much for them. Everything except for the bloodlines appears to be basically legal, so that’s a plus. I will give you a small boost for the fact that every single element of this build is from the SRD or an online supplement - that’s something we don’t see much.

    Your feat timing is off - level adjustment does NOT count as a bloodline level, which means that you don’t gain any of the level 19/20 bonuses, and you’re two levels behind what your chart indicates for the others. (There is even an argument to make that the bloodline levels themselves don’t count, which would mean that you are actually 5 levels behind, but I won’t go there.)

    There are also just a lot of really clunky elements to this build. Ending on so many skills with half-ranks in them, for instance, just feels like a waste of skill points. The feat timing is also very odd.

    Finally, I thought the presentation of this entry left a lot to be desired. In future competitions, I find it far easier to work off of a single table, so I can scan backwards and see what abilities you already have, etc.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (2)
    What does the secret ingredient actually give you here? You’ve got immunities and resistances that make many of its abilities less than useful. Your stats are at least decent enough to do OK at smiting, but you don’t really do anything interesting with it. If you’re going to be spending most of your time in wild shape, I guess that treating your weapons as cold iron is nice. You don’t have anything hooked up to particularly benefit from the class features - they’re there, but they don’t do anything special for your build, as opposed to any other.


    Judge Bitterbeard of the Non-Seelie Court (15.75)
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    Originality (4.5)
    Ranger was an expected entry, but hey, at least you didn’t also take the wild shape variant. Battlesmith is a lot of fun, and I’m always happy to see it. Same with Hammer of Moradin. I also love the heritage feats as well. Actually, in general, this build might have the freshest feel of what I’ve read so far, with its focus on hammer throwing and crafting. The ranger levels prevent a perfect score here, but you still do quite well.

    Power (3.5)
    In general there’s a lot of potential with this build, but I feel like power-wise, in the end, it falls flat. It’s built like a melee/ranged combatant, and you have a lot of small sources of damage bonuses (+Wisdom from battlesmith, favored enemy, Knowledge Devotion), but many of these bonuses are situational, and even if not, they don’t add up to a lot of damage. You’re also very much a late starter - you don’t pick up your battlesmith or hammer of moradin abilities, which make up a good chunk of your combat abilities, until ECL 16.

    Also, having rapid shot is not the same thing as being remotely capable at ranged combat. With no Brutal Throw, a negative dexterity, and no Quick Draw/Precise Shot/any of the many other things that might make this a viable tactic, it really feels like a waste.

    Defensively you have the standard resistances to Will, a decent chunk of HP, and some DR added on top. Fey Skin is neat, but the DR it provides is so low that it’s only really worth it if you’re taking more Fey feats. I almost would have prefered to see Fey Legacy or something, which would have added to your utility. Still, that’s not bad.

    On the utility side, I’ll go ahead and give a boost for battlesmith crafting, because that’s fairly handy. Other than that it’s pretty much just some average skills and your Cold Iron Warrior spells.

    This is a very cool build, but I worry that it would have trouble being a real force against level-appropriate encounters, especially if those encounters aren’t against fey (negating a good chunk of your bonuses). The utility and crafting keeps the build above average, but it could do better.

    Elegance (3.75)
    From what I can tell, you seem to have your crafty hunter barbarian favored enemy stacking with your ranger favored enemy. This should actually be two separate sets of bonuses, since it comes from two different sources, rather than stacking. Not a big deal, but something to keep in mind.

    Other than that, you qualify for everything that you’ve taken, and the build fits together thematically. It’s got a nice mix of fluff and crunch that should be welcome at most tables.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (3.5)
    You get some synergy out of the spells and battlesmith’s crafting, allowing you to craft CL 13 items and giving you some spells to work with, and at least you have a decent Wisdom to power Unmaking Magic. The defensive class features seem to work well for you as well, shoring that gap on your character build. However, not a ton of synergy beyond that - barely any Charisma for smiting, nothing particularly interesting done with dispelling, no class features hooked up to anything beyond that.

    Flavor-wise, this feels like a cold iron warrior in a way that a lot of the other builds have not, so I don’t want to drop this score too low, but again, it would have been nice to see more use eked out of many of these class features.


    The Phouka (13.5)
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    Originality (2.5)
    Ranger was expected, wildshape ranger doubly so. Hellreaver is a nice touch, though.

    Other than that, it’s all pretty standard fare. The only feat or ability that really stands out is Sanctify Natural Attack, but even that isn’t too much of a shocker on a wild shape build.

    Power (3.5)
    Well, thanks to Extra Wild Shape, Sanctify Natural Attack and IUS, you manage to eke some extra mileage out of your low-level wild shape ability, so that’s nice. It means you’ll do solidly at melee during the low levels, although you’ll still have some trouble remaining competitive later in the game. But you’ll do alright, with Power Attack and spellcasting keeping your damage solid, if not overwhelming.

    That said, Sanctify Natural Attack seems like a waste, as Hellreaver will make all your melee attacks good-aligned anyhow (and it doesn’t even cost you any fury points).

    In general, I have the same problems with you as I had with Fraxinus - you’ve got a neat built, but your options are somewhat limited. You’ve traded the stealth and mobility of Fraxinus for the healing and defense brought to you by Hellreaver, but that’s mostly a lateral move, and you still run into similar issues.

    Elegance (4)
    You qualify for everything, with no untoward choices or grey areas. The build is simple and straightforward, and should be fine at most tables. Again I can’t help but compare this build to Captain Fraxinus or Gilles - while it doesn’t have the added elegance of two completed prestige classes that they do, it also isn’t hurt by an illegal choice or early level clunkiness, so it balances out.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (3.5)
    You get some use out of cold iron weaponry, since you can use it in your wild shaped form. You also use the spellcasting, so I’ll give you some points there. The smiting has a decent Charisma to run off of, but otherwise isn’t hooked up to anything, and the moderate Wisdom means you can get some benefit from Unmaking Magic, but not a ton.

    So, you get a decent score for using several of the abilities, but not fantastic, because a good bit of it is still left untouched.


    Atmos Fear (15.25)
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    Originality (5)
    This may sound strange coming from me, considering that I tend to stop and think how I can apply totemist to anything, but I completely did not expect it here. Even more of a surprise was witchborn binder, one of the often forlorn prestige classes from MoI. Not only that, but you ended up with a VoP build, and actually managed to make it all work. Well done - I was expecting a lot of directions with builds, but this most certainly was not one of them.

    Power (4)
    OK, let’s first deal with the elephant in the room - the vow of poverty. VoP doesn’t hurt a totemist as bad is it might hurt others, even more so because you pull in some spellcasting from the secret ingredient, but it still hurts you here. If you were a single-classed totemist with access to some of the binds granting, for example, alternate forms of movement (shoulders and waist in particular) I might be able to ignore it, but as it is, you’re going to be limited in how you approach several problems.

    That said, you’ve got the goodies of an 8th-level totemist with double chakra, plus the defensive spellcasting of the secret ingredient. You have a few debuffing tricks up your sleeve, and with a huge Wisdom focus and Soultouched Spellshaping, you’ll be fantastic at slinging around dispels.

    This means you’ll score fairly well despite the VoP, although I suspect that the build would have been even stronger with level-appropriate items, just picking up Touch of Golden Ice and Intuitive Attack as regular feats.

    There are a few things that could have made you score a bit higher, though. Witchborn binder has some neat flavor to go alongside the secret ingredient, but not taking that 9th level of totemist is tough, since you miss out on one of the most powerful sets of binds a totemist has access to - 9th-level is probably their second biggest power jump. Also, I like the idea of Touch of Golden Ice plus a lot of natural attacks, but it would work better if you were using something other than the Landshark Boots. Those limit you to four attacks, and the DC of Golden Ice is low enough that there’s still a pretty good chance most enemies will make all four saves. You would have been better off doing something like sextuple claws plus bite, using Sphinx Claws for pounce.

    Again, you actually end up a fairly versatile and strong build - it’s just that the problem with rolling totemist here is that it’s difficult to look at it without wondering why you didn’t take more totemist.

    Elegance (2.25)
    Minor nitpick that I didn’t deduct anything for: it’s witchborn binder, not witchborn hunter.

    You’ve got a cool build overall, with a straightforward feel and a reasonable progression of abilities - I’m always a fan of builds that don’t have rough patches or clunky stretches where they don’t get any key abilities, and your build flows quite well in that regard. You also manage to do this with a minimum of sources - only two books. I don’t penalize for obscurity of sources or splatbook diving, but when I do see a build with such a minimal book list, I like to reward it a bit. I’ll add in the same quarter point I gave to Jillian.

    Unfortunately, though, I think that the build overall lacked proofreading. You’re lacking the relevant ability scores for several of the feats you’ve taken. None of them are feats that are essential to your build, but it hurts you here.

    Most importantly, though, you’ve completely ignored the skill requirements of witchborn binder. Missing pre-reqs on some non-essential feats will just result in a small ding, but completely ignoring the requirements of your only other prestige class is big. I like this build a lot, but that hurts you a lot here.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (4)
    You get a ton of use out of the dispelling and Unmaking Magic, some decent use from the spellcasting, and being able to make your natural attacks treated as cold iron is very nice. VoP also helps you here in that you can’t just purchase items to shore up your Will saves or give you enchantment immunity, so that helps you as well.

    On the other hand, no Charisma means you can’t take advantage at all of the SI’s smiting aspect. And honestly, I feel like the build could have been better served by dropping out after level 7 and taking more levels in totemist and witchborn binder, which means I can’t give a perfect score here. Still, this was a tough competition for UoSI (probably the lowest overall UoSI scores I’ve given yet), and you manage to do fairly well here.


    The White Tiger (8)
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    As a general note, this doesn’t feel like a complete entry - no skills beyond the minimum you need to qualify, no description of tactics, no maneuvers listed, just a build skeleton and that’s it. It makes it difficult for me to judge it appropriately.

    Originality (3)
    Warblade was an expected entry, thanks to melee synergy plus Iron Will as a bonus feat. I wasn’t expecting scout, however, or the shadow hand focus.

    As it is, without a description of tactics or list of maneuvers or anything else to determine how this build will actually play out, I’m just going to go off of what was presented, and call those two a wash for an even score here.

    Power (2)
    Well, warblade is never a bad way to start as far as melee capability goes. However, without seeing what maneuvers you know, it’s hard for me to say how effective you’ll be in melee.

    On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of problems with what WAS presented. You’ve got Shadow Blade but no weapon finesse, fighting with a subpar weapon that you’ve spent a feat on, and you’re a melee build with a Strength and Dex of 13. That’s not going to get you very far. You don’t have any reliable damage boosters - no Power Attack, minimal precision damage and not even Improved Skirmish to improve it, etc. Presumably you’re focused on charging, based on Powerful Charge, but you’ve got no pounce, and without knowing what maneuvers you’ve selected, I can’t assume you’re going to do anything but charge once for fairly mediocre damage.

    I also feel like the build would have done better if you had front-loaded your scout levels, and picked up your warblade levels later on, so that you could benefit from a higher IL and therefore take higher level maneuvers.

    I don’t see any real utility in the build to make up for things, either. You get track and trapfinding, but I have no idea how good you are at tracking, since you’ve got no skills or other abilities dedicated to it.

    In general, I have trouble seeing the build as presented doing particularly well in any given campaign. I’ll give you a little benefit of the doubt and assume that you would spend your skill points on survival and search, which helps a little, but you still fall below average.

    Elegance (1.5)
    There are a lot of problems with this entry.

    The biggest thing, as mentioned, is its lack of completeness. In particular, the lack of skills and maneuvers hurt you here. I don’t mind brief entries (in many ways I prefer them), but I expect an entry to at least be complete. As I mentioned in my scoring rubric, a big part of how I judge elegance is based on how ready I feel a build is to be picked up and taken over to anybody’s campaign. That can’t happen with an incomplete build. Scout/warblade into the secret ingredient might be a fine concept, but this entry doesn’t get it across. To keep the food analogy, you might have some good ingredients, but if you just throw them on the plate without finishing the dish or paying attention to how it’s plated, you’re not going to convince me to eat it.

    Also, the table was very confusing to read, as it did not tally everything from each level.

    As far as specific issues beyond that, you take Martial Study for... Shadow Hand? That’s a discipline, not a particular maneuver. What actual maneuver are you taking? And why are you spending a feat on a weapon that you can’t use with Shadow Blade, and also spending a feat on Shadow Blade?

    On the good side, you do qualify for everything that you take, and I don’t see anything wrong with the general build stub. That keeps you from getting a minimum score here. But I can’t overlook the other issues.

    Use of the Secret Ingredient (1.5)
    I’m looking for specific ways in which you use what the secret ingredient gave you. I don’t really see any synergy here at all. You’ve got a decent Wisdom, so at least Unmaking Magic should be handy, and you can take advantage of the spellcasting, but you haven’t really tied anything else into the abilities. Your low Charisma means that you aren’t getting any real advantage out of the smiting at all, and you haven’t demonstrated to me why any of the other abilities work out well for you at all.


    Honorable mention goes to Atmos Fear.

    That's all, folks! As always, please direct any disputes to the chair.
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2013-08-09 at 09:50 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #403
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Thanks a lot piggy. This should break up the ties a little ;)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Thanks for the judging Piggy!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Yay, judging! Thanks, Piggy.

    Now for the usual ritual after reading my judgings. *bangs head on wall a few times*

  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    So by my tally, that makes the running as follows (please excuse any math errors, I'm having a celebratory post-judging beer or three):

    • GOLD: Judge Bitterbeard 32.75
    • SILVER: Captain Fraxinus 31.75
    • BRONZE: Gilles de Rais-Loquart 31
    • 4 - The Phouka 30.5
    • 5 - Ourevel Moonshadow 29.5
    • 5 - Project 7a 29.5
    • 7 - Sir Broderick 29.25
    • 7 - Atmos Fear 29.25
    • 9 - Jasper 28.5
    • 10 - Khair Ostern 27.5
    • 10 - Shoure 27.5
    • 12 - Calista Ecanus 27
    • 13 - The Grasping Mist 25
    • 13 - James Ferrifer 25
    • 15 - Talsum 24.25
    • 16 - Al'laab Thump 23.75
    • 17 - The White Tiger 21.5
    • 18 - Jillian Feykiller 18.75


    EDIT: Odd, just noticed that when I cut and paste from Google Drive, all of my apostrophes are ’, as opposed to the default ' that the boards use. Looks kind of out of place with the default typeface.
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2013-08-09 at 10:34 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    So, my computer restarted itself last night from Sleep mode, taking with it all of the judging I'd done to that point.

    I'll try to get scores redone before the deadline.

    Sorry about this, folks.
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  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    So, my computer restarted itself last night from Sleep mode, taking with it all of the judging I'd done to that point.

    I'll try to get scores redone before the deadline.

    Sorry about this, folks.
    Bad luck, amph. if it's not possible, don't worry about it too much (especially with 18 entries) we at least don't have any ties to break, so there's that. plus after all these weeks thinking about cold iron warrior, I think we're pretty much ready to move onto the next SI.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    So, my computer restarted itself last night from Sleep mode, taking with it all of the judging I'd done to that point.

    I'll try to get scores redone before the deadline.

    Sorry about this, folks.
    Yikes that sounds really bad. Dang computers. Hope you didn't lose anything more important. If you can judge cool, if you can't than that's cool too.


    Also thank you Piggy for your judging.
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  20. - Top - End - #410
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Dispute!
    Quote Originally Posted by James Ferrifer
    I would have thought a standard action to gain +7 AC for a minute (it's a fixed 1 minute duration) was very worthwhile, as big boosts to AC are difficult to come by and can make a vast difference in the number of attacks hitting you. Law Devotion can do the same, but will probably be required more for its bonus to hit.

    Listen checks to locate him will also be difficult when he is way up in the air - the longbow has a range increment of 100ft so he can in most situations put 100ft or even 200ft for a small penalty between himself and the listeners, which will add +10 or +20 to the listen DC respectively.

    Also, not a dispute, but I am rather surprised that a pixie paladin is considered a classic, as I'd never heard of one before.
    Goddamn character limit...

  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    character limit'll get you when you least expect it

    almost thought we would get to the reveal there. disputes, death, and taxes.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

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  22. - Top - End - #412
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    James,

    Regarding Divine Shield, unless my copy of Complete Warrior is incorrect, it lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your character level. So, it'll actually only last for six rounds when you get it, and eight rounds at the completion of your build.

    That said, even if it did last for a flat minute, yes, I'd still call it a bad deal. A minute's duration is short enough that you can't really pre-buff with it unless you know you're literally about to start fighting RIGHT NOW. At least in my experience, that's only going to be a small percentage of combat encounters. That means that for the most part, you'll be restricted to using it in combat. To lose your standard action in order to boost your AC (only one of several defenses you need to watch out for) is a bad trade, in my opinion. Law Devotion and Divine Might are both great because they require swift and free actions to activate, so they don't hurt you in terms of action economy.

    I've seen some effective uses of Divine Shield, including a build that used it alongside Inlindl School to get outrageous attack bonuses, but even so it's niche. Considering that you can instead spend your turn attempts on keeping Divine Might up each round, or refreshing Law Devotion, I think it's a waste of a feat.

    As far as the distance penalties to listen checks go, the same is true for spot checks at a distance, assuming you can actually open up combat from 200 feet away. That's not really anything unique to the pixie. My point remains, though - pixies at low levels are fragile little things thanks to that tremendous LA, and all someone needs to do is get you within the range of an area spell, a cloudkill, etc.

    As far as the pixie paladin goes, I feel like it's something that frequently gets suggested when pixies get brought up. It makes sense in an odd way, thanks to the Charisma focus, etc. In fact, flipping through the handbooks over on minmax, I see a charging smite paladin as one of the sample pixies in carnivore's Pixie Handbook, and a pixie Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard listed as a sample build in the Paladin Build Compendium. That said, I don't mean to imply that it's a standard build (if it were you would have gotten dinged in originality). I just mean that it's not something I haven't seen before.
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  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    So, my computer restarted itself last night from Sleep mode, taking with it all of the judging I'd done to that point.

    I'll try to get scores redone before the deadline.

    Sorry about this, folks.
    Need me to extend the deadline a bit, or should I just call it?

  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Need me to extend the deadline a bit, or should I just call it?
    Go ahead and call it. I'll be DMing tomorrow and needed some of today to make proper preparations for that, as well.

    Again, sorry about that.
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  25. - Top - End - #415
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Go ahead and call it. I'll be DMing tomorrow and needed some of today to make proper preparations for that, as well.

    Again, sorry about that.
    No worries, it happens. We got more than one judge anyways, so it's all good.

    And now it's time for the reveal!

    Final Tallies After Two Judges
    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
    Judge Bitterbeard, by Macabaret|Gold|32.75|4.094
    Captain Fraxinus, by Deadline|Silver|31.75|3.969
    Gilles de Rais-Loquart, by Venger|Bronze|31|3.875
    The Phouka, by The Viscount|Fourth|30.5|3.812
    Ourevel Moonshadow, by Korahir|Fifth|29.5|3.688
    Project 7a, by Vaz|Fifth|29.5|3.688
    Atmos Fear, by Kreuz|Seventh|29.25|3.656
    Sir Broderick, by dysprosium|Seventh|29.25|3.656
    Jasper, by Haluesen|Ninth|28.5|3.562
    Khair Ostern, by Biotroll|Tenth|27.5|3.438
    Shoure, by Kazyan|Tenth|27.5|3.438
    Calista Ecanus, by Feilith|Twelveth|27|3.375
    The Grasping Mist, by TheGeckoKing|Thirteenth|25|3.125
    James Ferrifer, by Xodion|Thirteenth|12.5|3.125
    Talsum, by Vknight|Fifteenth|24.25|3.031
    Al'laab Tuhump, by WhamBamSam|Sixteenth|23.75|2.969
    The White Tiger, by relytdan|Seventeenth|21.5|2.688
    Jillian Feykiller, by Razanir|Eighteenth|18.75|2.344[/table]

    A hearty congratulations to all of our competitors and judges!

    The next Secret Ingredient will be revealed shortly. And you'll never see it coming.

    EDIT: New Competition has been posted!

  26. - Top - End - #416
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Congratulations to all competitors and hearty thanks to all judges including those who couldn't submit their scores.

    have to admit i'm rather torn, because for once i'm really happy i placed so high, but also i feel like my build had some flaws (dead levels) and could have been better using the SI and most of all been presented better, if i had more time at hand. Still i think Ourevel is a very playable char and has a nice fun touch.

  27. - Top - End - #417
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    *kicks a conveniently-placed nothing* Again, my knack for making builds that don't actually work shines through. Unimpressive performance, but good practice.

    Congratulations to Macabret, Deadline, Venger, Kruez, and just...the competitors in general.

  28. - Top - End - #418
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Well done everyone, lots of innovation. My special congratulations go to Deadline for placing despite my highly similar build mucking things up. Great to see you back in the saddle, Macaberet, especially with such a triumphant return. On to the next round!
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  29. - Top - End - #419
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    A humble request to our Judges (may their scorings ever be generous): it would be enlightening to me, as a neophyte Chef, to see some more suggestions for what could have been done to increase lower scores, especially in the categories of Power and UoSI. I understand that every single build can't have judging notes like, "Power: 3, you have good damage but could do better with X feat or Y class feature" but, when such a solution readily presents itself, that would be educational for us newbies; more so than, "Power: 3. You deal moderate damage but don't keep up with level-appropriate encounters."

    The UoSI category would be even more enlightening; I see many builds here got middling scores for not using/applying/leveraging all the SI abilities, but as a neophyte I admit I have basically zero ideas on how any of the chefs could have pulled better.

    As always, thank you Judges for your efforts in this round!
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  30. - Top - End - #420
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII

    Congrats to the winners
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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