The MitD outwitting Xykon.

[factotum]

we don't know what exactly the MitD is. Rich pointed out that he knows exactly what it is and that it is not something he made up but can be found in a sourcebook.

Actually, it might not even be in a sourcebook--I'm pretty sure that the Giant has said he knows exactly what the MitD is, but it's not necessarily a D&D monster or even an RPG-derived one at all.

[FujinAkari]

And yes, this is but one example in a long-running trend. The mere fact that O-chul was thrown several miles out during the sapphire gate explosion, yet survived, is kind of a frudge-nuking in itself.

It is actually impossible for O-chul to die from fall damage. The maximum damage that a character can take by falling is 20d6, which averages out to0 70. O-chul should have at least double that in hit points.

There was no foreshadowing of the IFCC,

Nope, none at all.

of the MitD's teleporting abilities,

Not specifically his teleporting abilities, no. What WAS known is that he was an immensely powerful creature that had powers and abilities far beyond his own comprehension. Thus, the fact that he has powers and abilities which he didn't know he could use is... not all that surprising?

of the ghost paladin army

And... this is a convenient twist how? Oh! It let Xykon do exactly what he would have done anyway!

Wait, crap, that isn't convenient or twisty at all. Uh... help me out on what your point here is?

even that throwing Xykon at Durokan's gate would instantly destroy him.

It is explicitly stated that the runes destroy anything without a pure heart.

[Carry2]

...Can you interpret "thinking is so hard" as "I'm incapable of higher intelligence?" Yes, obviously, since that's how you interpret it....

I don't necessarily interpret it that way. I am saying that this is Step 1 on something like a 10-step program to self-actualisation, and we seem to have skipped over 5 or 6 intermediate steps.

This, as Rich said, was a joke...
...All of these are unified by the fact that they are surprises to the audience. It is obvious that the author likes surprising the audience...

It's not just a joke. Jokes, by their nature, are un-serious. The timing of Xykon's arrival, on the other hand, has dire potential consequences for the Order, which we are expected to take seriously.

As for foreshadowing negating thrills- I'm reasonably sure that this story ends with Roy destroying Xykon, but that doesn't automatically make it lame. Secrecy and suspense are two different things. But things-that-completely-surprise-the-audience in a really plot-critical and convenient way are the definition of a DeM, and the MitD being a walking source of these is not a particular virtue.

It is actually impossible for O-chul to die from fall damage...

Yes, because the author pays such very close attention to the fine points of D&D mechanics and would not violate them even if he wanted to.

This guy survives the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion, and people not only find ways to rationalise it, but also don't mind that he lands at the precise spot where the MitD is having lunch.

Nope, none at all.

What? We're supposed to infer something from one evil demon talking to other evil demons about opportunities to do evil stuff? Because this totally told us what to expect from the sapphire guard, and the Oracle was super helpful in teasing out the shape of things to come. Not to mention that the whole question of how they the IFCC could possibly forsee V being separated from the party, and would never mention what was in the rift, is basically handwaved away.

Of course the ghost army was plot-convenient. Without it, Xykon would most likely have vapourised Miko on sight and the sapphire gate would've remained intact, thus effectively ending the story with Xykon's victory. (I'll admit I'd mostly forgotten about the pure-of-heart enchantment on Durokan's Gate, though it only killed low-level mooks.) But the story is still rife with contrived plot factors, with another 3 or 4 during Miko's arc alone.


At any rate, there's probably no point getting into further details. I've said everything I can reasonably say on the subject, and I doubt that further debate will change any minds.

[Kish]

What? We're supposed to infer something from one evil demon talking to other evil demons about opportunities to do evil stuff?

You know, when your argument actually takes the form of, "The fact that we actually saw those specific characters identify themselves as direct superiors to a major villain and declare their interest in the main plot didn't constitute foreshadowing of their becoming involved in the main plot"? You might want to read up on this newfangled idea called admitting you're wrong.

(I'll admit I'd mostly forgotten about the pure-of-heart enchantment on Durokan's Gate, though it only killed low-level mooks.)

It killed every evil character who touched it, including a character who is literally as far from being a low-level mook as you can get (except, arguably, if he was a god). If you read about it killing goblins and added an "only low-level mooks" clause to its lethality, that's on you; there's no reason for it to be Rich's problem.

[Bedinsis]

I honestly don't think MitD figuring out an excuse for heading to the next gate which convinces Xykon to let the Order be to be out of character. It is something that is in character for MitD to attempt, and his growing eagerness to think for himself makes it plausible that he'd think out a convincing excuse.

What do bother me is that Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to question MitD's sudden insight. They have never seen any of MitD's growing intellect, so from their perspective the drooling moron suddenly provided actual insight, yet the only reaction of surprise comes from Xykon with the line "Weird as it is, I think the dim bulb has a point". I imagine this would warrant a further discussion.

[Tock Zipporah]

A writer you might recognize, Neil Gaiman, once decided that too many people had complained that you couldn't write a good story about Superman because he was too powerful.

Neil decided to write about a character who was literally omnipotent, just to make the point. It was a pretty well received run of comics, too.

Character is more important than power. If the MitD can wish the problems away, the story will be about WHY he does or doesn't.

To build off this point, I'd like to point out that there are other ways to add tension and suspense to a story, besides "will the main character die?"

The "Superman is too powerful" argument also mirrors any "plot armor" arguments about any long-term work of fiction. People assume that the main character CAN'T die (or, as in the case of Roy, must inevitably be resurrected) because "if the main character dies, the story is over." People take this to mean there is no tension or drama left.

However, there are worse things that can happen to the main character than dying. There is failure. In the first Superman movie, even though Supes himself is only in danger ONE time (when the kryptonite is used), he still fails later on: he fails to save Lois Lane from dying. There is tension and drama all throughout those final scenes, as Superman races around to save people all around the city. The suspense isn't "will Superman die?" but instead is "will Superman fail?"

To carry this point over to the Order of the Stick: people frequently think there is no drama in, say, the Silicone Elemental fight, because they say "there's no way that monster can kill the PC's, so why act like there's any danger?" However, there are other things that can happen instead. A character could be knocked into the rift. The delay could give Xykon and Redcloak time to do more evil. The OotS could regroup with the Azurites to find out that Hinjo, et al got killed because the OotS was too preoccupied with another battle. Drama can still happen.

Bad things happen to these characters all the time, even if "dying" isn't always one of them. Roy lost his sword, Haley lost her voice. The party got separated. They failed to defend the latest Gate. These are all "failures," even if the party lives through them.

Drama takes many forms. Sometimes it comes in the form of the MitD saving the day. But that doesn't mean we should consider MitD to be "too powerful," because, like Superman, there's always going to be something he can't do, even if he wishes really hard.

[Snails]

This guy survives the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion, and people not only find ways to rationalise it, but also don't mind that he lands at the precise spot where the MitD is having lunch.

You need to use a lighten up and use a little imagination.

There are many different ways that O-Chul could survive. The author chose to lean on the D&D rules, in order to get the result of allowing O-Chul to be a final living witness to Miko's last act. That is not cheating in a genre that presumes a certain degree of affection for the peculiarities of the rules -- quite the opposite.

As for the location, it does not really matter whether MitD trudged 0 feet, 20 feet, 200 feet, or 2000 feet to grab O-Chul and drag him back to his tea party. Some choices require more comic panel real estate than others. Some choices happen to be less funny than others.

[Math_Mage]

I don't necessarily interpret it that way. I am saying that this is Step 1 on something like a 10-step program to self-actualisation, and we seem to have skipped over 5 or 6 intermediate steps.

Step 1 was about 100 strips earlier. Step 3 was about 50 strips later; Step 4, about 130 strips after that. How this is Step 9 or 10, rather than Step 5 or 6, is beyond me.

Again, this is another intermediary step on MitD's character arc, not some kind of transcendent conclusion. How do I know this? He's still under the umbrella, that's how.

It's not just a joke. Jokes, by their nature, are un-serious. The timing of Xykon's arrival, on the other hand, has dire potential consequences for the Order, which we are expected to take seriously.

And we did, which is one reason why Roy, y'know, destroyed the Gate. That's pretty serious.

As for foreshadowing negating thrills- I'm reasonably sure that this story ends with Roy destroying Xykon, but that doesn't automatically make it lame. Secrecy and suspense are two different things. But things-that-completely-surprise-the-audience in a really plot-critical and convenient way are the definition of a DeM, and the MitD being a walking source of these is not a particular virtue.

And have these DeMs (at last count, Stomp and Escape) been used in a way that actually makes the story worse? Or are we supposed to nod our heads and say, "Yes, Carry2, these abilities weren't explicitly laid out beforehand so that makes them evil incarnate"?

Yes, because the author pays such very close attention to the fine points of D&D mechanics and would not violate them even if he wanted to.

He does follow the rules in 99% of the strips. He discards rules if he thinks they get in the way of the story he wants to tell. This one doesn't. What's the problem?

This guy survives the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion

Don't even. It wasn't.

What? We're supposed to infer something from one evil demon talking to other evil demons about opportunities to do evil stuff? Because this totally told us what to expect from the sapphire guard, and the Oracle was super helpful in teasing out the shape of things to come. Not to mention that the whole question of how they the IFCC could possibly forsee V being separated from the party, and would never mention what was in the rift, is basically handwaved away.

Why would knowing what to expect from the Sapphire Guard have helped the story? Why would the Oracle being un-Oracularly helpful have helped the story? Oh, and it's not like the IFCC told us they were keeping tabs on V or anything. Wait, they did! It's not like the IFCC wasn't the only party waiting for V to split from her companions. Wait, they weren't! It's almost like you've lost sight of the goal "Tell a good story" in pursuit of the goal "Don't do anything without explaining it to the audience first."

[Lombard]

At any rate, there's probably no point getting into further details. I've said everything I can reasonably say on the subject, and I doubt that further debate will change any minds.

You didn't even acknowledge the possibility that your original assumption, i.e. that the MiTD "outwits" Xykon, is flawed even though it's been pointed out several times.

It's very reasonable to infer that Xykon went along with the proposal for reasons having far more to do with his own capricious motivations than any great persuasive power that the MiTD was suddenly possessed of. Which would kind of make your entire argument without merit... you've taken an initial premise which may have been flawed and run quite far with it, I'll give you credit for that.

[BroomGuys]

I don't necessarily interpret it that way. I am saying that this is Step 1 on something like a 10-step program to self-actualisation, and we seem to have skipped over 5 or 6 intermediate steps.

I see no reason why this should be a 10-step program. The MitD already has some mental capabilities, but he started emotionally caring enough to put the effort into using them. The difference between not trying and trying doesn't have to be that gradual.

It's not just a joke. Jokes, by their nature, are un-serious. The timing of Xykon's arrival, on the other hand, has dire potential consequences for the Order, which we are expected to take seriously.

And the timing was fortunate, sure, but we could reasonably have expected him to show up some time around when he did, because he had to be there while the gate was still there. Fortunate improbability is definitely not a deus ex machina in this case.

As for foreshadowing negating thrills- I'm reasonably sure that this story ends with Roy destroying Xykon, but that doesn't automatically make it lame.

Just as we were reasonably sure Xykon wasn't going to win outright in Azure City. In fact, he did win more than I thought he would when I first read through.

Secrecy and suspense are two different things. But things-that-completely-surprise-the-audience in a really plot-critical and convenient way are the definition of a DeM, and the MitD being a walking source of these is not a particular virtue.

What makes a DeM bad is that you feel like the heroes didn't earn it. The planning involved in the ghost-martyrs made my reaction "oh snap, the heroes had a better hand of cards than I thought," but then Xykon didn't die, bringing down the convenient bit.

As for the MitD being a walking source of DeM's? I just devoted a significant argument to demonstrating that he most certainly isn't, so straight-up declaring that he is anyway with only a one-sentence quasi-counterpoint to my arguments to the contrary is sort of dodging a really important point of contention.

Yes, because the author pays such very close attention to the fine points of D&D mechanics and would not violate them even if he wanted to.

The laws of physics are loosely based on D&D mechanics. They aren't automatically supplanted by the real world's laws of physics.

This guy survives the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion, and people not only find ways to rationalise it, but also don't mind that he lands at the precise spot where the MitD is having lunch.

Nuclear explosion? That would have vaporized the entire throne room, literally. And yes, the latter is a contrived coincidence, but since it doesn't immediately sway any of the important drama going on in that scene, it's not really that bothersome. The MitD has to find Roy's corpse for his tea party, so he probably would've found O-Chul's paralyzed body anyway.

What? We're supposed to infer something from one evil demon talking to other evil demons about opportunities to do evil stuff? Because this totally told us what to expect from the sapphire guard, and the Oracle was super helpful in teasing out the shape of things to come. Not to mention that the whole question of how they the IFCC could possibly forsee V being separated from the party, and would never mention what was in the rift, is basically handwaved away.

Yes, it is impossible to predict any of the IFCC plot stuff from their first appearance, but the fact that they suddenly become way more important than we thought they were is not bad storytelling at all. Again, as I said in a point you did not address, Faustian deals aren't totally out of left field in a fantasy setting with Demons, Daemons, and Devils acting on the mortal plane.

And it's important to remember that we still don't really know what the IFCC's game is, and how they plan to use V.

Of course the ghost army was plot-convenient. Without it, Xykon would most likely have vapourised Miko on sight and the sapphire gate would've remained intact, thus effectively ending the story with Xykon's victory.

I sort of talked about this one above, but we all knew Xykon wasn't going to win once and for all there, at the very least. The ghost army was something the good guys set up beforehand, and it really would've been lame if they'd told us beforehand.

At any rate, there's probably no point getting into further details. I've said everything I can reasonably say on the subject, and I doubt that further debate will change any minds.

I'm not sure changing people's minds is really why we're all here, to be honest, but that's a tough issue to tackle. What I wonder is whether it's possible to write a good epic fantasy story that you would really take seriously. You said Roy will likely defeat Xykon at the end, and that it won't necessarily be lame. There is no way Roy can defeat Xykon without some serious good fortune on his side, unless he actually take's Xykon's advice and goes and level grinds for a good long while. The requirements you seem to be levying on proper foreshadowing of whatever things go the good guys' way, I think, are so high that there's no way to write an ending to this story that would meet those requirements without being totally boring.

Really, it seems like you're trying to prove that the plot is as unconvincing as you feel it is (don't bother handing me a mirror; I already know ). It's totally fine that you don't find it effective, but seriously, the MitD is not a DeM-machine.

[Snails]

What do bother me is that Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to question MitD's sudden insight. They have never seen any of MitD's growing intellect, so from their perspective the drooling moron suddenly provided actual insight, yet the only reaction of surprise comes from Xykon with the line "Weird as it is, I think the dim bulb has a point". I imagine this would warrant a further discussion.

I would argue that the real reason the bluff succeeds is not that the bluff is great, but that Xykon is distracted by other issues, in particular his growing apprehension that Redcloak is playing him. Redcloak never gets a chance to argue against the merits of MitD's bluff -- Xykon perceives the old "let's be reasonable" line as another provocation, a potential further undermining of his authority.

Redcloak might well have won the argument if he only changed he tact towards something that would appeal Xykon's nature, e.g. "we ALWAYS have time to make the heroes beg for mercy, right?"

[Porthos]

I actually missed this but...

Are we actually arguing about the presence of jokes and humor in The Order of the Stick?

Why I never.

Rich should be ashamed at himself for writing jokes in a work that, even if it has very dramatic moments, is still largely a comedy-adventure.

NOTE:

Spoiler

Show

[veti]

Nuclear explosion? That would have vaporized the entire throne room, literally. And yes, the latter is a contrived coincidence, but since it doesn't immediately sway any of the important drama going on in that scene, it's not really that bothersome. The MitD has to find Roy's corpse for his tea party, so he probably would've found O-Chul's paralyzed body anyway.

I think 'nuclear explosion' may be hyperbole, but it was certainly a very large bang. Large enough to knock down significant portions of castle, at a range of a hundred yards or so. That makes it huge by conventional-bomb standards (a castle wall is typically at least 6' thickness of close-fitted stone), and I would certainly expect someone standing right next to it to be, at best, liquidised.

However, this is D&D, where you can make a saving throw to survive being hit with a 'Disintegrate' ray. My former DM had a house rule - more for amusement value than anything else - that any time you rolled a natural 20 on your saving throw, you took no damage at all from the immediate effect, no matter how apocalyptic. So to me, it seemed "impossible, but well within the spirit of impossible things that D&D allows".

[Morthis]

I quoted the wikipedia definition, which is somewhat narrower, on the first page of the thread, but I also think you're creating something of a false dichotomy. I don't have a problem with a story containing unlikely events- even plot-critical unlikely events- every now and then. (In the same way that I can gloss over the remarkably precise timing needed for Romeo and Juliet to kill themselves, as others have commented on.) After all, statistically speaking, unlikely events do and must happen sometimes (and after all, the probability of any sufficiently long sequence of non-certain events will tend to zero, by the multiplication law.)

The thing with coincidences in stories is that you see them so much because they're the critical points of the story. Let's say I'm in a story and suddenly I get kidnapped. Pick any public location you want that I get kidnapped from. I just happen to be there, the bad guys happen to walk in when I'm there, they recognize me, and they kidnap me. This is a pure coincidence, but one that was bound to happen if we live in the same area for months. Now from a story perspective, the few thousand times I go to a public place and nothing happens are completely meaningless. They might show me going out a lot to establish I'm social, but beyond that there's nothing to show, so they'll skip ahead to my kidnapping. It'll look like a giant coincidence, but that's because all the other stuff isn't worth talking about.

Or I guess to put it a different way, if it wasn't for those coincidences, there would be no story to tell.

Applying odds to all these things and multiplying them is a silly way of looking at things. I could apply that to my day today. What are the odds I'd wake up at 7:23 (no alarm)? What are the odds it'd take me a few minutes to find my kindle because I didn't put it next to the bed like I normally do? What are the odds traffic wasn't as bad as normal today? What are the odds my cable company would call me today trying to sell me more stuff I absolutely wouldn't use? I mean, if we take all those odds and multiply them together, we'll be approaching zero too, yet I just had that day.

So if it were just the MitD showing a spontaneous progression from idiot to genius within one scene*, I could probably gloss over that too. This is more a 'straw that broke the camel's back' for me, given that, as far as I can tell, most plot-critical events in the strip have hinged on some random fluke of probability or previously-untouched-on faction or ability. If some of you consider that a feature, not a bug, then good for you. But I am not one of those people.

It's not just the Go scene, that's just the comic showing us the key turn around. O'Chull gave mitd a wake-up call, and made him realize he's just playing along as a naive pawn in the scheme of some pretty bad people. The point is that until he met O'Chull, mitd was kinda happy just following along, not really thinking or even paying attention to what's happening. O'Chull gave him the drive to start caring, and we see this in several more scenes following the Go one. He clearly cares about O'Chull, enough to actually pay attention to what's going on, and to remember him. For him to suddenly jump to their defense is not that surprising, and it didn't take an extremely clever person to do so either.

You have to realize, the difference between a deux ex machina and a plot point is foreshadowing. Mitd is shown to bond with O'Chull, we can see he's getting more involved with what team evil is doing, etc. This foreshadowing establishes why he acts the way he does in 901.

[FujinAkari]

Yes, because the author pays such very close attention to the fine points of D&D mechanics and would not violate them even if he wanted to.

The key phrase is 'even if he wanted to.' He doesn't.

This is a comic based in the D&D framework and, while Rich has made it abundantly clear just how willing he is to forsake the rules for a better story, he will still tend to follow them where possible / where he is aware of them.

This guy survives the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion

Citation Needed.

and people not only find ways to rationalise it, but also don't mind that he lands at the precise spot where the MitD is having lunch.

Again, you are confusing fruitful coincidence with expediency. If O-chul had come down three miles away and Rich had devoted seven strips to the MITD walking over to find out what happen, just precisely how does that improve the story?

O-chul didn't fall exactly at the MITD because Rich had no other way to advance the story, he fell exactly at the MITD because that made for the most straightforward and engaging story.

What? We're supposed to infer something from one evil demon talking to other evil demons about opportunities to do evil stuff? Because this totally told us what to expect from the sapphire guard, and the Oracle was super helpful in teasing out the shape of things to come.

Ummm... that isn't what foreshadowing means. Your claim was that the involvement of the IFCC was not, ever, in any way, foreshadowed. That claim is demonstrateably false.

If you now want to claim that every character needs to exposition every action they will ever take the moment you meet them so as to avoid any future plot convenience then... no. I don't want to read that type of story and Rich doesn't want to write it.

Of course the ghost army was plot-convenient. Without it, Xykon would most likely have vaporized Miko on sight and the sapphire gate would've remained intact, thus effectively ending the story with Xykon's victory.

Leaving aside the question of how the Sapphire Guard would have remained intact, every gate has been shown to have some sort of final defense. If you object to the ghost army, then you have to allow for a replacement final defense which would have served pretty much the same purpose, narratively speaking.

But the story is still rife with contrived plot factors, with another 3 or 4 during Miko's arc alone.

Citation needed.

At any rate, there's probably no point getting into further details. I've said everything I can reasonably say on the subject, and I doubt that further debate will change any minds.

Well, the problem I have with your argument is that you advance a position that things are happening with no foreshadowing, people point out all the foreshadowing, and you just refuse to accept their evidence. I mean, if we are going to have a reasonable debate, there needs to be an agreeance on standards, but as far as I can tell the only standard you are using is "Does Carry2 Like This?" Unfortunately, that isn't a standard which can be rationally discussed :)

[Mightymosy]

I honestly don't think MitD figuring out an excuse for heading to the next gate which convinces Xykon to let the Order be to be out of character. It is something that is in character for MitD to attempt, and his growing eagerness to think for himself makes it plausible that he'd think out a convincing excuse.

What do bother me is that Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to question MitD's sudden insight. They have never seen any of MitD's growing intellect, so from their perspective the drooling moron suddenly provided actual insight, yet the only reaction of surprise comes from Xykon with the line "Weird as it is, I think the dim bulb has a point". I imagine this would warrant a further discussion.

I don't get why people seem to be irritated by the MitD's talk so much.

When I first read 901, MitD seemed totally in character. It worried about O'Chul's friends and finally took some own action to change things. It was a surprising, but yet totally logical consequence from the last scenes it appeared in.

What bothered though, was Xykon.
Whenever Xykon appeared, he is very "bossy" and draws all attention to him. He is very proactive and tells Redcloak and MitD what to do.
Maybe it's because his pelvis was blown away, but to me, he seems rather distracted and passive in 901.

Since now they are getting close to his main goal, the gate, I expected he would be a lot more proactive and center the whole dialogue around him.

After finding out Roy destroy the gate and foiled him YET AGAIN, I would have expected a rage scene similar to the one when V and O'Chul escaped.

It just seemed out of character for Xykon to say "Guy stopped me again. Let's just leave him here and get to the next gate."

Now, after reading the forums, it totally made sense to me.
Because, Xykon just missed this gate because he was a minute late, so he would not waste a single second teleporting to the next, even if this means not punishing the guy who spoiled his victory.

Bascially, I missed ire. His second to last chance to seize a gate was stolen right under his nose, with the guy who probably did it still in front of him.
Considering that, Xykon was a bit too disinterested and passive for my expectations.

Note that this is not a major issue for me or a deus that spoils the story.

It was more like a minor emotional inconsistency while I read that comic the first time. For me it just felt a bit like unreal Xykon from the Phantasm.

I'm bringing it up only because i find it strange that people are bothered by MitD's reaction in comparison.

[Sunken Valley]

I don't get why people seem to be irritated by the MitD's talk so much.

When I first read 901, MitD seemed totally in character. It worried about O'Chul's friends and finally took some own action to change things. It was a surprising, but yet totally logical consequence from the last scenes it appeared in.

What bothered though, was Xykon.
Whenever Xykon appeared, he is very "bossy" and draws all attention to him. He is very proactive and tells Redcloak and MitD what to do.
Maybe it's because his pelvis was blown away, but to me, he seems rather distracted and passive in 901.

Since now they are getting close to his main goal, the gate, I expected he would be a lot more proactive and center the whole dialogue around him.

After finding out Roy destroy the gate and foiled him YET AGAIN, I would have expected a rage scene similar to the one when V and O'Chul escaped.

It just seemed out of character for Xykon to say "Guy stopped me again. Let's just leave him here and get to the next gate."

Now, after reading the forums, it totally made sense to me.
Because, Xykon just missed this gate because he was a minute late, so he would not waste a single second teleporting to the next, even if this means not punishing the guy who spoiled his victory.

Bascially, I missed ire. His second to last chance to seize a gate was stolen right under his nose, with the guy who probably did it still in front of him.
Considering that, Xykon was a bit too disinterested and passive for my expectations.

Note that this is not a major issue for me or a deus that spoils the story.

It was more like a minor emotional inconsistency while I read that comic the first time. For me it just felt a bit like unreal Xykon from the Phantasm.

I'm bringing it up only because i find it strange that people are bothered by MitD's reaction in comparison.

Xykon has never really lost his temper at a gate destruction. He didn't get cross when the last 3 gates were destroyed, after all.

Xykon is the most powerful mage in the world and he knows it. If this gate plan fails, he knows he can smoke wrong-eye and do it the hard way.

[Morty]

To me, Xykon's reaction to the MitD's argument can be likened to his reaction when Redcloak got away with killing Tsukiko - he told the lich what he wanted to hear. After what had happened in Azure City, Xykon was very reluctant to waste any amount of time and was more than willing to tell Redcloak to shut up and put up when he suggested doing that.

[Cavelcade]

I was going to comment in more detail, but the discussion seems done, so I'll just say this:

MitD's reaction is not at all genius-level, in fact, it barely passes muster as a lie. He's basically just using information about what he knows Xykon cares about - one of which is what makes a better 'plot', ie, who's more likely to actually challenge him. The only reason it worked, as far as I could tell, is it appealed to two things Xykon is now interested in: focusing on the goal at hands and putting Redcloak down. Since the attack by V, Xykon has changed. He now only wants to get this thing done and dusted and finish off getting the gates. He has decided that is what he wants to focus his power on and, as we've seen before, when Xykon decides to focus he is extremely dangerous. As for him wanting to put Redcloak down - the reasoning behind that should be clear.

Basically, Xykon has had character growth over the course of the story, leading to this in a way which makes sense - to me, at least.

[Diadem]

Most people here seem to think that the MiTD has at least decent int, and very low wisdom. I actually disagree here, I think the MiTD probably has fairly good wisdom scores as well (plus a very high int).

Of course part of this comes down to the limitation of the D&D system. Minds are extremely complicated things, and using just 2 numbers to describe them is obviously going to be woefully inadequate in many situations.

In my opinion, the MiTD is clearly a child. A lot of his supposed stupidity is, I think, just childishness. Betting for monopoly money is something very typical for a child. And the child knows, deep down, that it's not real, but he doesn't care. MiTD is also not used to thinking, being repressed by Xykon and Redcloak. But he's capable of it, and does so when pressed.

And in situations like those, his wisdom is not particularly low. When O'Chul first escapes, he's clearly very aware of the danger. He can read Xykon to a pretty good degree, as demonstrated in both the O'Chul escaping strips and in #831 to #833.

In #700, the famous strips where he identifies Tsukiko's scroll as just half of the ritual, he doesn't just do that. He also sees right through Tsukiko's delusions, saying that Xykon has no love to give, and that undead "don't work that way". Sure that doesn't require genius levels of wisdom, but it clearly demonstrates that he's not completely naive if he doesn't want to be.

All in all, The MiTD wisdom is not extremely low. It's probably half-decent, if he chooses to use it. He's childlike and not used to thinking for himself, but he's not completely naive, and certainly not stupid.

And like I said before, in the D&D world wisdom is limited to just a single number, so such a nuance is difficult to express. You could assign him a low wisdom and a circumstance bonus when he deeply cares about something, or assign him a mediocre wisdom and penalties in specific situations, and a dozen other 'solutions'. But ultimately a consistent character and story are much more important than the actual numbers of a character sheet.

And looking at the story, I think MiTD is pretty consistent. He's a child, kept dumb by Xykon and Redcloak, but he's starting to think for himself. He probably has a very non-human, and definitely has a a very non-adult, view of the world. He's inherently good, though he has no idea what exactly that means. He's also insanely powerful, but he's neither reached nor realized his full potential due to being a child. But he's slowly growing up, and coming more into his own.

This strip fits entirely in that narrative.

[Kish]

Most people here seem to think that the MiTD has at least decent int, and very low wisdom. I actually disagree here, I think the MiTD probably has fairly good wisdom scores as well (plus a very high int).

I agree with you, but for a different, entirely more mechanics-based reason.

I think the creature in the darkness is certainly an epic monster of some sort. And epic monsters who are sapient and don't have extremely high Intelligence and Wisdom both are rarer than...Lawful Good demons.

[halfeye]

When Clint Eastwood spins around and shoots three guys behind him with a revolver before they get a shot off in a Western, I don't think "ok, impossible, the story is ruined"; I think "ok, impossible, that means he's impossibly badass!"

Sometimes, impossibly badass is a joke, and none the worse for that.

[Klear]

Most people here seem to think that the MiTD has at least decent int, and very low wisdom. I actually disagree here, I think the MiTD probably has fairly good wisdom scores as well (plus a very high int).

Of course part of this comes down to the limitation of the D&D system. Minds are extremely complicated things, and using just 2 numbers to describe them is obviously going to be woefully inadequate in many situations.

In my opinion, the MiTD is clearly a child. A lot of his supposed stupidity is, I think, just childishness. Betting for monopoly money is something very typical for a child. And the child knows, deep down, that it's not real, but he doesn't care. MiTD is also not used to thinking, being repressed by Xykon and Redcloak. But he's capable of it, and does so when pressed.

And in situations like those, his wisdom is not particularly low. When O'Chul first escapes, he's clearly very aware of the danger. He can read Xykon to a pretty good degree, as demonstrated in both the O'Chul escaping strips and in #831 to #833.

In #700, the famous strips where he identifies Tsukiko's scroll as just half of the ritual, he doesn't just do that. He also sees right through Tsukiko's delusions, saying that Xykon has no love to give, and that undead "don't work that way". Sure that doesn't require genius levels of wisdom, but it clearly demonstrates that he's not completely naive if he doesn't want to be.

All in all, The MiTD wisdom is not extremely low. It's probably half-decent, if he chooses to use it. He's childlike and not used to thinking for himself, but he's not completely naive, and certainly not stupid.

And like I said before, in the D&D world wisdom is limited to just a single number, so such a nuance is difficult to express. You could assign him a low wisdom and a circumstance bonus when he deeply cares about something, or assign him a mediocre wisdom and penalties in specific situations, and a dozen other 'solutions'. But ultimately a consistent character and story are much more important than the actual numbers of a character sheet.

And looking at the story, I think MiTD is pretty consistent. He's a child, kept dumb by Xykon and Redcloak, but he's starting to think for himself. He probably has a very non-human, and definitely has a a very non-adult, view of the world. He's inherently good, though he has no idea what exactly that means. He's also insanely powerful, but he's neither reached nor realized his full potential due to being a child. But he's slowly growing up, and coming more into his own.

This strip fits entirely in that narrative.

I pretty much agree with you. I think this discussion exists only because people on both sides have a different assessment of the amount of subterfuge required to bluff Xykon in this occasion and how much of it was dumb luck and how much was successful bluffing.

When the comic came up, I commented (on the first page, no less!) that it "felt almost out of character" and I stand by that assessment. I don't get the feeling that MitD has as much difficulty bluffing as he (it?) have. Other people do, and that is probably exactly what happened, in comic, but the way the comic is written, it seems to me that the bluff was rather well though out and presented.

[pendell]

Minor quibble: I have argued elsewhere on this forum that the explosion of a gate is roughly equivalent to a kiloton yield. Others with physics backgrounds agreed with me that the yield would be anywhere from half a kiloton to two kilotons.

So Carry2 is right in comparing the destruction of the Sapphire Gate to a "small nuclear explosion". That's not entirely accurate, because there would be no radiation damage. But it is roughly comparable. Not to a Hiroshima blast, but to that produced by an atomic
demolition munition .

O-chul's survival of being hit in the face by a concussive blast which would suddenly accelerate him from a standing stop to a high speed and propel him up an away for dozens, maybe hundreds of meters, then the sudden stop at the end, to say nothing of the extreme temperatures he experienced resulting in the obvious burn marks, is nothing short of miraculous. His survival is due to Rule of Funny, and the fact that as a high-level D&D character he is a superhero compared to the normal human population. He can take damage that can kill most men, as evidenced by his subsequent torture for the amusement of Team Evil.

So, while I disagree with pretty much everything else Carry2 says, he is right about this.

I didn't mind O-chul's survival because it didn't cheapen the plot and was funny. Rich could have made his survival more realistic by having be somewhere on the battlefield elsewhere than in the throne room itself, then be taken prisoner by Team Evil. Or he could have killed everyone in the throne
room and had the prisoner be a new paladin we hadn't met before and wasn't
foreshadowed. But all of these paths would represent unnecessary work on the part of the author and wouldn't be nearly as funny. I'm willing to totally forgive implausible contrivance if there is any number of perfectly reasonable, but less funny, ways for the story to come to the same conclusion.


ETA: Some might call this 'nitpicking' or 'overthinking'. But this is simply
my way of enjoying the story. If I was an artist, I'd draw avatars. If I
was a fiction writer, I'd make up fanfiction. As it is, I'm an engineer and
an analyst and a Sci-fi geek, so I look at the various scientific implications
of the events in the story. These discussions are BS purely for my own
enjoyment and the enjoyment of others. Fun to do and fun for me to learn
from others, but if you would rather not think about it and just enjoy
the story that is, in my view, totally reasonable. I would also not
expect the author to either change his story or think the story is
bad because it is fantasy and not science fiction. Some of the best
stories we talk about (Star Wars, Rowling) have either only a passing
resemblance to reality or flat out ignore it altogether.

So a story doesn't need to be realistic in any way to be enjoyable,
although some of us who DO think about these things do like to
take it to the next level in discussion. If that floats your boat,
go right ahead. If it doesn't, feel free to ignore it :).
Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Domino Quartz]

Others with physics backgrounds agreed with me that the yield would be anywhere from half a kiloton to two kilotons.

So Carry2 is right in comparing the destruction of the Sapphire Gate to a "small nuclear explosion". That's not entirely accurate, because there would be no radiation damage. But it is roughly comparable. Not to a Hiroshima blast, but to that produced by an atomic
demolition munition .

O-chul's survival of being hit in the face by a concussive blast which would suddenly accelerate him from a standing stop to a high speed and propel him up an away for dozens, maybe hundreds of meters, then the sudden stop at the end, to say nothing of the extreme temperatures he experienced resulting in the obvious burn marks, is nothing short of miraculous.

I didn't realise the comic was supposed to be following real-world laws of physics.

[pendell]

No, it doesn't. See the last paragraph I just edited into my last post :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Domino Quartz]

ETA: Some might call this 'nitpicking' or 'overthinking'. But this is simply
my way of enjoying the story.

I think I understand that. But it can get annoying to others when you do it too often.

[pendell]

:Thinks about it:

Well, I'm sorry if sometimes the comments of myself or others is annoying to my fellow posters. However, I do not really find myself in a position to change my posting style to suit others. I have with great effort managed, after several years, to find a posting style which does not result in constant warnings from the mods. So I'm going to stick with that and discuss the things which interest me with others who care about the same thing. The OOTS forums do not segregate for rules lawyering about the comic, and I'm certainly not going to stop posting just because there are people on this board who don't like what I have to say, so long as it is within forum rules. There is, however, an 'ignore' feature which you can use to make my comments go away if you wish. I have used it myself on other posters whom I find tedious. Which doesn't mean they ARE objectively obnoxious, but I do find that the desire to constantly smash their face in after reading doesn't enhance my enjoyment of the site.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Coat]

Well, I'm sorry if sometimes the comments of myself or others is annoying to my fellow posters.

Eh, as far as I'm concerned, you're all right. For whatever that's worth.
You say 'respectfully' at the end of each post and as far as I can tell you mean it. That counts for something in my book.


On topic: regarding Xykon's lack of annoyance - SoD makes this clearer, but Xykon doesn't really care that much about the whole Gate thing. He's doing it because it's an Epic Evil Quest, and he needs something to do. I don't want to do SoD spoilers, so I'll just say that if Troglodytes had shorter names, he might not be here now.

Yeah, it's irritating, but on the other hand, more stuff to kill at a new gate, right? As opposed to nuking a couple of fighters scrabbling in the sand? They don't even get to believe they have a chance. Where's the fun in that?

On the other hand, he's capable of being a lot smarter and more focussed than he lets on. There's several reasons why going straight to the next gate makes sense:

• Every gate is defended. Any spell he casts here is one that he won't have available at the next gate
• Last time he listened to Reddie, he got stuck in a city for most of a year. He's right not to trust Redcloak's motives
• He missed this gate by minutes. A few rounds might make a difference
• It won't necessarily take a few rounds to clean up. He doesn't know what resources they have, particularly if they're here just to delay him

As I read Xykon, it's just like him to focus on business when the situation demands it.

[Kish]

I think you're one of the mildest posters here, pendell. I know being diplomatic doesn't come naturally to me; I'd be amazed if I'm not on more ignore lists than you are.

I certainly don't find you annoying.