Personal Woes and Advice 3

[aspi]

I don't think you get rid of it. I don't have nearly as good a memory as yours, yet I still remember times and places where I was hurt, sometimes more vividly than other things.

What I have done, and I make no guarantees that this will work for you, is fit those memories into a larger narrative. Rather than stopping on that which is painful, I continue to think and reflect on it as it fits into my life. I try to remember what I learned from those painful things and how they may have helped me grow as a person. This is a repeated exercise and it does take time to build that narrative. So when you say you've intellectually understood how you should feel, that's the very first step. You have to take that and put it into practice then repeat it a lot. For example, near the end of my schooling, I lost a job offer through circumstances outside my control and broke my foot in the span of a week. At the time and for a while after, I found it quite depressing and I still remember that couple months as full of pain and sadness. However, I also see it now as a demonstration of what I'm capable of working through: I didn't stop going to my glasses, despite difficulty walking in a snowy winter, and I didn't stop studying. I was able to figure out what I had to get done and do it, even feeling as bad as I did at the time.

I think you need something similar. To find the good for yourself in what happened and how you've grown as a person and to fit the pain into that larger narrative so that you don't just stop and focus on it every time you think about it.

Thank you. This is, ultimately, what I'd like to do. But I'm not in a position to do this at the moment, because I didn't grow from the experience. I did the assessment and the sad fact is that this just isn't something that didn't kill me yet made me stronger. It's something that did kill a part of myself that was important to me and made me less than I was before. I'll have to work hard to get that back. And this work is a lot harder if I am constantly reminded of their betrayal, to a point where it is just a waste of time and energy to think about what happened. I did that. A lot. It just doesn't help because there's nothing there to learn anymore and there is no "up" after following my memories all the way down. I know what went wrong, I need to look ahead and rebuild, but what they did is the wrong foundation. I can't push through the bad to get to something good. I need to go in a different direction, but my memory keeps pulling me back.

[Crow]

You need to readjust your focus. Part of that means that if you can't ignore place/concept associations to that person, you need to focus on building new associations to those places. Have a restaurant where that person hurt you badly? Make it the place where you and some friends have coffee sunday mornings.

If you can't avoid them or disassociate the memories, you need to face them head on and make newer, stronger ones.

[RoyVG]

Thank you. This is, ultimately, what I'd like to do. But I'm not in a position to do this at the moment, because I didn't grow from the experience. I did the assessment and the sad fact is that this just isn't something that didn't kill me yet made me stronger. It's something that did kill a part of myself that was important to me and made me less than I was before. I'll have to work hard to get that back. And this work is a lot harder if I am constantly reminded of their betrayal, to a point where it is just a waste of time and energy to think about what happened. I did that. A lot. It just doesn't help because there's nothing there to learn anymore and there is no "up" after following my memories all the way down. I know what went wrong, I need to look ahead and rebuild, but what they did is the wrong foundation. I can't push through the bad to get to something good. I need to go in a different direction, but my memory keeps pulling me back.

I'm also someone that can remember certain things in very good detail depending on the impact they had on my life, and can easily be held back by them in teh process. I understand you are having difficulties because I experience the same thing when something heavily emotionally happens to me. You let these memories impact your emotions, because you just can't disconnect them from your daily life. I'm still experiencing the backlash from something that happened 5 months ago, but when I look at what I gained in return because of my actions afterwards, I can only be glad it happened the way it did. However, I was fortunate enough that I could dissociate them from my daily life rather easily, they lived far away from me, I did not have any obligation involving them and I didn't have really good connections with other people surrounding them, so I could just say 'Goodbye for now' and be done with it.

You don't seem to be that fortunate and that makes the recovery process all the more difficult. I think that you really need to reassess rationally what happened, what you did closely afterwards, and any actions you did in repsonse to this event. Look for the things that had a more positive outcome.

[Anarion]

Thank you. This is, ultimately, what I'd like to do. But I'm not in a position to do this at the moment, because I didn't grow from the experience. I did the assessment and the sad fact is that this just isn't something that didn't kill me yet made me stronger. It's something that did kill a part of myself that was important to me and made me less than I was before. I'll have to work hard to get that back. And this work is a lot harder if I am constantly reminded of their betrayal, to a point where it is just a waste of time and energy to think about what happened. I did that. A lot. It just doesn't help because there's nothing there to learn anymore and there is no "up" after following my memories all the way down. I know what went wrong, I need to look ahead and rebuild, but what they did is the wrong foundation. I can't push through the bad to get to something good. I need to go in a different direction, but my memory keeps pulling me back.

You know, I don't know you that well. Yet I feel very confident in telling you that you're wrong. The very fact that you're here asking for advice, examining yourself because of what happened and thinking about how you can move on are signs of growth. They show thoughtfulness and self-examination. I know you think that the experience has taken something from you, but it has given you other things. Better skills at evaluating people, at understanding yourself and what you want.

You're wrong and when you see that, you'll start healing the pain you're suffering.

[aspi]

You need to readjust your focus. Part of that means that if you can't ignore place/concept associations to that person, you need to focus on building new associations to those places. Have a restaurant where that person hurt you badly? Make it the place where you and some friends have coffee sunday mornings.

If you can't avoid them or disassociate the memories, you need to face them head on and make newer, stronger ones.

Thank you. This sounds good and I have, in part, been trying to do this, but I'm somewhat worried that it will have the opposite effect of creating an association between those people and the person I don't want to remember if I initiate a meeting at such a place for exactly this reason - since I am actively creating that association. I know it sounds weird but it feels weird, too.

The second problem is that I literally can't do this for a multitude of things such as street corners, common pieces of jewellery or certain gestures that are triggers for me. Part of the problem is the sheer number of triggers, most of which are completely mundane.

I'm also someone that can remember certain things in very good detail depending on the impact they had on my life, and can easily be held back by them in teh process. I understand you are having difficulties because I experience the same thing when something heavily emotionally happens to me. You let these memories impact your emotions, because you just can't disconnect them from your daily life. I'm still experiencing the backlash from something that happened 5 months ago, but when I look at what I gained in return because of my actions afterwards, I can only be glad it happened the way it did. However, I was fortunate enough that I could dissociate them from my daily life rather easily, they lived far away from me, I did not have any obligation involving them and I didn't have really good connections with other people surrounding them, so I could just say 'Goodbye for now' and be done with it.

You don't seem to be that fortunate and that makes the recovery process all the more difficult. I think that you really need to reassess rationally what happened, what you did closely afterwards, and any actions you did in repsonse to this event. Look for the things that had a more positive outcome.

Just to clarify this, I don't talk to that person and rarely to others which know both of us. They are in pretty much no way part of my life anymore, so this isn't a Problem of an actual connection to them that I have to deal with. It's mostly all in my head and I need to get it out or at least put it someplace where it doesn't bother me constantly.

My problem isn't that I remember the emotional parts vividly. It's that I remember the small, meaningless things that ultimately lead me back to the bad ones. For example, I have to walk past a spot every day where we split ways for the evening three years ago and I remember what we talked about. I remember what they said, what I said, why I said that, how I felt and their reaction. None of this was important in any way or had any deeper impact on either of our lives, but it's enough for me to remember how these thoughts and feelings became part of a greater whole and then of course how that eventually turned out. The same is true for certain words or phrases, concepts, places, peoples and even an entire language - all in all way to much to cut all of it out of my life.

It's kind of a "pink elephant" thing. Once I encounter such a trigger, my mind just goes there, even if I don't want it to. I know that this is normal to some extent, but the frequency is worrying and since I remember just too much of our relation, it's all connected and it all leads back to bad memories.

You know, I don't know you that well. Yet I feel very confident in telling you that you're wrong. The very fact that you're here asking for advice, examining yourself because of what happened and thinking about how you can move on are signs of growth. They show thoughtfulness and self-examination. I know you think that the experience has taken something from you, but it has given you other things. Better skills at evaluating people, at understanding yourself and what you want.

You're wrong and when you see that, you'll start healing the pain you're suffering.

I feel like you aren't entirely wrong but you're getting too far ahead. What I'm healing are superficial cuts and bruises, not the one thing that matters. Healing back to normal isn't something I can manage to be proud of for a number of reasons. I really don't want to go into detail on this, so let me put it in a metaphor.

Imagine someone who's had his leg torn off and who has to use crutches to limp along. He knows the leg is gone for good and he'll need a prosthesis and he has accepted that. Sure, some day he will get better and he'll probably be able to run again. Maybe even faster than before. But right now he needs to get to the prosthetist and each - darn - step - hurts - like - crazy. At this very moment, the man needs something to deal with the pain. To get to where he needs to go, because he knows that once he can get there he will get better. He knows he's on the right path and he's determined to get there, but the pain is holding him back and he needs to find a way to deal with it - because the less pain there is, the faster he can go.

I'm that man. I know where I have to go, I know how I can get better but I won't be able to, unless I get there. And if I have to waste this much energy on fighting ghosts it just takes forever - since that fight won't make me faster, but only slow me down, since the ghosts are literally dragging me in the opposite direction of where I have to go. The less of them there are, the better.

[Anarion]

I feel like you aren't entirely wrong but you're getting too far ahead. What I'm healing are superficial cuts and bruises, not the one thing that matters. Healing back to normal isn't something I can manage to be proud of for a number of reasons. I really don't want to go into detail on this, so let me put it in a metaphor.

Imagine someone who's had his leg torn off and who has to use crutches to limp along. He knows the leg is gone for good and he'll need a prosthesis and he has accepted that. Sure, some day he will get better and he'll probably be able to run again. Maybe even faster than before. But right now he needs to get to the prosthetist and each - darn - step - hurts - like - crazy. At this very moment, the man needs something to deal with the pain. To get to where he needs to go, because he knows that once he can get there he will get better. He knows he's on the right path and he's determined to get there, but the pain is holding him back and he needs to find a way to deal with it - because the less pain there is, the faster he can go.

I'm that man. I know where I have to go, I know how I can get better but I won't be able to, unless I get there. And if I have to waste this much energy on fighting ghosts it just takes forever - since that fight won't make me faster, but only slow me down, since the ghosts are literally dragging me in the opposite direction of where I have to go. The less of them there are, the better.

I see you're trying to be profound there, and I appreciate that it's hard. I think it's great that you're trying to work through this. I know you'll get there. That said, I look at that metaphor and let me tell you, I'd call that guy a taxi to get to the hospital. If you don't want to tell the real story, you don't have to, but I think it might help us give you better advice. We won't judge you for doing something wrong or for being hurt.

[Nai_Calus]

I wish I could give you some good advice, aspi, but I've had a very similar problem, and honestly, the only thing that helped in my case was time and reasoning turning the agony to anger, and that's not that much of a help.

But I know how you feel. Every time I saw his name somewhere, or ran across something associated with him, it stabbed me in the gut all over again, for months and months and months and the pain just would. not. stop.

I wish I could say things turned out for the best and I came out of it stronger, too, but that's completely not true.

Time, I guess. Give it time.

It doesn't heal the wounds, but they eventually hurt less.

[RoyVG]

Just to clarify this, I don't talk to that person and rarely to others which know both of us. They are in pretty much no way part of my life anymore, so this isn't a Problem of an actual connection to them that I have to deal with. It's mostly all in my head and I need to get it out or at least put it someplace where it doesn't bother me constantly.

My problem isn't that I remember the emotional parts vividly. It's that I remember the small, meaningless things that ultimately lead me back to the bad ones. For example, I have to walk past a spot every day where we split ways for the evening three years ago and I remember what we talked about. I remember what they said, what I said, why I said that, how I felt and their reaction. None of this was important in any way or had any deeper impact on either of our lives, but it's enough for me to remember how these thoughts and feelings became part of a greater whole and then of course how that eventually turned out. The same is true for certain words or phrases, concepts, places, peoples and even an entire language - all in all way to much to cut all of it out of my life.

It's kind of a "pink elephant" thing. Once I encounter such a trigger, my mind just goes there, even if I don't want it to. I know that this is normal to some extent, but the frequency is worrying and since I remember just too much of our relation, it's all connected and it all leads back to bad memories.

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I wish I could give you some good advice, aspi, but I've had a very similar problem, and honestly, the only thing that helped in my case was time and reasoning turning the agony to anger, and that's not that much of a help.

But I know how you feel. Every time I saw his name somewhere, or ran across something associated with him, it stabbed me in the gut all over again, for months and months and months and the pain just would. not. stop.

I wish I could say things turned out for the best and I came out of it stronger, too, but that's completely not true.

Time, I guess. Give it time.

It doesn't heal the wounds, but they eventually hurt less.

This is the best advice I can give now as well aspi, considering the circumstances. You'll never stop feeling the pain, but at some point or another, the pain will be bearable. I'm walking the same path as you, and I'm still feeling those low blows in my stomach everytime I see something that I can even remotely connect to those people. But it becomes more bearable as time passes, except maybe for some more personal moments, but that gets better as well. Bear with it, cope with it and deal with it.

[FinnLassie]

I think it's just a bit of a rant, if even that, but I just want to blurt out how my appointment to the doctor went yesterday and this feels like the perfect space. Spoilered because I'm a blabbermouth.

Spoiler: ooh look at this, it's a spoiler button! shiny!

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So, yeah, I basically have a huge huge huge fear of doctors, clinical spaces and so on, so I have to say that my unversity is doing quite good locating its health services in a nice, small red cottage just outside the campus. All starts well then, and the doctor wasn't even wearing a lab coat. Phew. Damn. This is going so smooth. I was honestly afraid that the room would end up smelling like health centres or hospitals and I'd freak out, but it didn't. It felt so serene to FINALLY be in an environment where I didn't feel stressed out at all. After questioning me about certain issues, she... quite promptly nodded, let out an "mm-hmm" sound and asked about family illnesses, told them and she seemed to be a bit unsatisfied and asked if there's been ADD or ADHD in the family. I said not that I know of, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was. Kinda made me feel like she wants to explore the option of me possibly having some sort of attention problems. I guess I'm not totally against it, were it the thing.

Not fond of sharing the exact details, but I'm now being forwarded to clinical psychiatric services and she'll try to get me in to art therapy or other more active therapies. I feel really relieved, but at the same time really, really scared. Am I really worth it going through this right now, when I'm doing relatively well, am able to wake up in the morning like a regular person (I mean I've only skipped classes twice! That's a record!), and above all.. haven't felt self destructive AT ALL since September.

[Lissou]

I think it's just a bit of a rant, if even that, but I just want to blurt out how my appointment to the doctor went yesterday and this feels like the perfect space. Spoilered because I'm a blabbermouth.

Spoiler: ooh look at this, it's a spoiler button! shiny!

Show

So, yeah, I basically have a huge huge huge fear of doctors, clinical spaces and so on, so I have to say that my unversity is doing quite good locating its health services in a nice, small red cottage just outside the campus. All starts well then, and the doctor wasn't even wearing a lab coat. Phew. Damn. This is going so smooth. I was honestly afraid that the room would end up smelling like health centres or hospitals and I'd freak out, but it didn't. It felt so serene to FINALLY be in an environment where I didn't feel stressed out at all. After questioning me about certain issues, she... quite promptly nodded, let out an "mm-hmm" sound and asked about family illnesses, told them and she seemed to be a bit unsatisfied and asked if there's been ADD or ADHD in the family. I said not that I know of, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was. Kinda made me feel like she wants to explore the option of me possibly having some sort of attention problems. I guess I'm not totally against it, were it the thing.

Not fond of sharing the exact details, but I'm now being forwarded to clinical psychiatric services and she'll try to get me in to art therapy or other more active therapies. I feel really relieved, but at the same time really, really scared. Am I really worth it going through this right now, when I'm doing relatively well, am able to wake up in the morning like a regular person (I mean I've only skipped classes twice! That's a record!), and above all.. haven't felt self destructive AT ALL since September.

Now is the best time to seek help, actually. Not only can it prevent you to revert to your previous behaviours, but if you did revert before being helped, you probably wouldn't be in any state of mind to go through with it. Try to outsmart your future self, start the therapy now, and this way you'll get/stay better :)

[Gritmonger]

Now is the best time to seek help, actually. Not only can it prevent you to revert to your previous behaviours, but if you did revert before being helped, you probably wouldn't be in any state of mind to go through with it. Try to outsmart your future self, start the therapy now, and this way you'll get/stay better :)

Second. Deep in difficulty, it is hard to see a way out; so when you catch some high ground is the time to orient and get some momentum.

[FinnLassie]

I guess I feel weird because it's the first time I'm not in the middle of a breakdown or crisis that I'm actually being forwarded to reparative services. I suppose a diagnosis from 2008 that hasn't been updated since was also one of the pushes, but... Yeah. I have to stop beating myself down from all the positive stuff that happens.

Also, asked mum and there indeed is ADD/ADHD in the family, and bipolar disorder which the doctor asked about as well. My doctor seems to be rather professional, as she's guessing stuff that I didn't know myself. Ah, I just wish the ride up won't be too bumpy this time!

[Anarion]

I guess I feel weird because it's the first time I'm not in the middle of a breakdown or crisis that I'm actually being forwarded to reparative services. I suppose a diagnosis from 2008 that hasn't been updated since was also one of the pushes, but... Yeah. I have to stop beating myself down from all the positive stuff that happens.

Also, asked mum and there indeed is ADD/ADHD in the family, and bipolar disorder which the doctor asked about as well. My doctor seems to be rather professional, as she's guessing stuff that I didn't know myself. Ah, I just wish the ride up won't be too bumpy this time!

I don't think there's any reason to feel weird. It sounds like the doctor is really good and this is a great opportunity to have someone help out. Best of luck.

[WarKitty]

Just...money troubles. I finally got well enough to be doing some work. Trouble is freaking no one is hiring full time and I can't realistically do 2 part-time jobs and still expect to eat and sleep. But the way things are going I need to start actually supporting myself, which means I'll need to be making more money.

And the full-time jobs that are out there are temp jobs. Which makes me nervous - is it better to have a stable part-time job, or a full-time temp job? Especially a temp job with no set end date (which I suspect is mostly a way to avoid paying benefits)? The whole thing is making my head spin.

[TechnOkami]

Just...money troubles. I finally got well enough to be doing some work. Trouble is freaking no one is hiring full time and I can't realistically do 2 part-time jobs and still expect to eat and sleep. But the way things are going I need to start actually supporting myself, which means I'll need to be making more money.

And the full-time jobs that are out there are temp jobs. Which makes me nervous - is it better to have a stable part-time job, or a full-time temp job? Especially a temp job with no set end date (which I suspect is mostly a way to avoid paying benefits)? The whole thing is making my head spin.

If the part time jobs are plentiful, then take the temp job. It'll bag you more money in the short run, and then you can keep trying for a part-time job all the while both for in case it doesn't pan out and/or you get eventually let off from the temp job.

[Aedilred]

Just...money troubles. I finally got well enough to be doing some work. Trouble is freaking no one is hiring full time and I can't realistically do 2 part-time jobs and still expect to eat and sleep. But the way things are going I need to start actually supporting myself, which means I'll need to be making more money.

And the full-time jobs that are out there are temp jobs. Which makes me nervous - is it better to have a stable part-time job, or a full-time temp job? Especially a temp job with no set end date (which I suspect is mostly a way to avoid paying benefits)? The whole thing is making my head spin.

I would be inclined to take a full-time temp job, if you're up to it. In my experience, if you are able to work full-time it is worth doing in preference to part time, because the extra time gained from a part-time position doesn't get used effectively enough to compensate for the lack of pay. What's more overheads (other than income tax) don't scale to income so a full-time job would give you disproportionately more disposable income even on a slightly lower hourly rate-equivalent. And as you say, two part-time jobs is a nightmare and not something I'd recommend except as a last resort.

While a permanent position is nominally more stable, you can still be shown the door and unless you've been in place a long time notice periods are usually only a few weeks (obviously, it depends largely on local labour laws). Unless your employers are tools or the work in question is very volatile, an open-ended temporary contract will often give you not much less notice before expiring (with a fixed-term temp job of course you already know when you start how long it'll last).

You don't want to get stuck in a full-time temp job forever, and there are a few types of contract to watch out for - the infamous zero-hours contract got some press here about eighteen months ago, although I was on one at the time and it was fine since my employers were reasonable - but it's a good opportunity to fluff up your account balance and put some money aside for a rainy day, and could potentially be a springboard to a permanent position. While there are financial reasons that employers sometimes prefer temps, generally if they find a good temp in a position that needs filling long-term, they'd rather take them on properly.

[The Succubus]

Just...money troubles. I finally got well enough to be doing some work. Trouble is freaking no one is hiring full time and I can't realistically do 2 part-time jobs and still expect to eat and sleep. But the way things are going I need to start actually supporting myself, which means I'll need to be making more money.

And the full-time jobs that are out there are temp jobs. Which makes me nervous - is it better to have a stable part-time job, or a full-time temp job? Especially a temp job with no set end date (which I suspect is mostly a way to avoid paying benefits)? The whole thing is making my head spin.

A future employer won't hold that against you because they know that jobs are fickle and often need to be short term. All they will be interested in is how well you did that job and what hours you would be willing to work for them.

In terms of here and now - having the full time temp job would be easier for you to get your routines established and I suspect it will probably produce a little more money. This may even give you a chance to save a little, which opens further options.

[WarKitty]

Well, right now I actively have the part-time job, while I don't have the full time. I may try to drop the part time thing down to once a week if I get a full time temp offer, just to keep it in hand.

I just hate having to do all this. I hate the whole you need experience for any decent job and the best you can hope for is to spend 2/3 of your pay or more just to house yourself. It's scary and if I make the wrong choice I don't have a lot to fall back on. Plus my health's acting up again...I've been feeling nauseous for like a week now.

[sktarq]

So my girl and I were watching Inspector Lewis, and while said inspector was talking a new widow I noted that the actress had narrow nostrils.
My GF said "You're weird, correct but weird".
No normally I can figure out why people think something I say is odd but this has me baffled.
This scene was the best look at the actress' face (the first tight close up).
After two hours I'm still drawing a blank and am slightly irritated about not being able to come up with a satisfactory hypothesis about this beyond GF was mistaken (and has now left for. Family easter events)
Ideas?

Edit: my GF thinks I'm somewhere on the autistic sectrum-I don't know (officially) nor do I care. So the option of her projecting this as symptomatic of something.

[Lissou]

Well, my guess is that she found it surprising that you were looking at the size of her nostril rather than paying attention to the scene, since that detail was probably completely irrelevant and most people would just... not notice it.

On the other hand, it's not that completely weird either, I guess. She probably hadn't noticed and found it weird that you did.

[sktarq]

Thank you. I'm guessing you are correct. I don't "get" it. I am having to assume that she looked at the screen at a different moment than me.

[dehro]

It is a fairly oddball thing to note and say... Most People aren't really concerned by other's nostrils, and would have expected a comment on the acting, general looks/appeal of the actress, cinematography, lighting, plot, suspense, volume or music, rather than something so specific.
I wouldn't read too much into her comment though..She's not altering her perception of you but merely noting your comment was odd/weird/unexpected.
She's most likely not going to look for "other signs that you're a weirdo" with the intent of getting away from you if it turns out to be the case.

[Skeppio]

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I'm at that point again where I'm questioning whether or not it's even worth living, and "no" is winning by a landslide.
Nothing I ever do is interesting or creative. Anything I can create is derivative crap or bandwagoning on a trend someone else started. I draw vector art on DeviantArt and elsewhere (not gonna link it, not forum-safe), but it's all trash. It's the best I can ever do, but it's unacceptable trash.
I still live with my parents, and given the rate I've been able to book driving lessons, I doubt I'll be able to be ready for my license test by the time my learner's permit expires, which means I'll have to log 120 hours before I'm allowed to go for my license. Its my own damn fault for leaving it so long though. I'm so pathetic and useless, I don't deserve a license anyway. What I do deserve is when everyone will call me an idiot and a loser for leaving it too late and running out of time.
My job bores me, and I've considered leaving it, but I need it for money. It doesn't pay enough for me to be able to live on my own. I should've stayed at my old job, but I was dumb enough to put happiness and creativity above profit and left my old job to go back to university. Now I'm paying the price for my incredible stupidity. And leaving my job would mean no income, and I on't want to become a parasite on my parents again. It's shameful enough I still live with them, but at least I pay rent.
I'm still single, and I've tried everything and searched everywhere I could. Of the millions of people within my reach, not one is interested in me. I've filtered out ones who would never work out, looked for places where people with mutual interests would be, tried online dating, everything. But no success. No-one ever replies to me on dating sites, and the only message I've ever gotten was just a couple days ago, by a guy who had nothing in common with me and clearly did not read my page at all. I've even considered giving up and paying a hooker, just so I can have someone at least pretend I'm attractive, but even that is simply too expensive, and they wouldn't treat me nicely anyway.
I have no future. My skills have all peaked at the laughably mediocre limits of my abilities, and I'm too old and useless to find new skills, and they'd never get me employed. There's just nothing left for me in this world. I don't want to live such an empty life. At least if I die, no-one else ever has to put up with me again.

[Alent]

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I'm at that point again where I'm questioning whether or not it's even worth living, and "no" is winning by a landslide.
Nothing I ever do is interesting or creative. Anything I can create is derivative crap or bandwagoning on a trend someone else started. I draw vector art on DeviantArt and elsewhere (not gonna link it, not forum-safe), but it's all trash. It's the best I can ever do, but it's unacceptable trash.
I still live with my parents, and given the rate I've been able to book driving lessons, I doubt I'll be able to be ready for my license test by the time my learner's permit expires, which means I'll have to log 120 hours before I'm allowed to go for my license. Its my own damn fault for leaving it so long though. I'm so pathetic and useless, I don't deserve a license anyway. What I do deserve is when everyone will call me an idiot and a loser for leaving it too late and running out of time.
My job bores me, and I've considered leaving it, but I need it for money. It doesn't pay enough for me to be able to live on my own. I should've stayed at my old job, but I was dumb enough to put happiness and creativity above profit and left my old job to go back to university. Now I'm paying the price for my incredible stupidity. And leaving my job would mean no income, and I on't want to become a parasite on my parents again. It's shameful enough I still live with them, but at least I pay rent.
I'm still single, and I've tried everything and searched everywhere I could. Of the millions of people within my reach, not one is interested in me. I've filtered out ones who would never work out, looked for places where people with mutual interests would be, tried online dating, everything. But no success. No-one ever replies to me on dating sites, and the only message I've ever gotten was just a couple days ago, by a guy who had nothing in common with me and clearly did not read my page at all. I've even considered giving up and paying a hooker, just so I can have someone at least pretend I'm attractive, but even that is simply too expensive, and they wouldn't treat me nicely anyway.
I have no future. My skills have all peaked at the laughably mediocre limits of my abilities, and I'm too old and useless to find new skills, and they'd never get me employed. There's just nothing left for me in this world. I don't want to live such an empty life. At least if I die, no-one else ever has to put up with me again.

One parents' basement dwelling artist to another:

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Don't let the depression monster eat you. Stop thinking about how your life isn't what you want it to be and start being glad it isn't worse as you work to improve yourself. Negative visualization actually helps in a strange way, I suggest you read more on that in a book on Stoicism, it's a topic too in depth and I'm really new to it, myself. It's helping me pull out of a horrific depression spiral that has been keeping me from even attempting to draw/be creative, so maybe it might help you, too. If not, knowing more classic philosophy can never hurt.

As an example, you have a car to drive and get hours towards your permit in. That in and of itself puts you ahead of many people, but it's easy to forget that you could find yourself lacking access to a car at all. Just spend a few minutes each morning to imagine how much harder it would be to get those hours without a car, and you'll find yourself enjoying the opportunity to get the hours more. It sounds weird, but it works- things can always get worse, and being aware of that will help you value the things you have and help you overcome the depression monster whispering in your ear that you don't deserve something.

As for your art? It sounds like you've got two problems, the first is real- you're at a skill plateau. The only way to get to the next plateau is to practice and push yourself. Draw things you don't normally draw, draw from life, try speed drawing, for all that's important to you, make sure you draw a little each day. Every plateau you ascend, the next one is taller and takes more work to climb. You just have to keep moving forward, one step at a time.

The second is somewhere between real and imagined. All art is derivative by nature. More specifically, all art is derivative of nature itself. The entire point of art school is to make you aware of that while teaching you how to use all of it as tools in an arsenal to create something that you personally like drawing. Something incredibly amazing happens to every artist- As you draw, all those little things that inspired you slowly work into your style and congeal around, you keep improving it, and suddenly one day without your being aware of it, you suddenly have your own style. Sometimes you go "I want to try something" and like it, sometimes you show a friend and they comment on something you weren't consciously aware of, the genesis is different for each person, but it happens.

This goes right back to the skill plateau concept, you just have to keep at it and keep trying. There's a theory that achieving mastery of something takes 10,000 hours of practice- it's a horrible generalization, but it's true in a descriptive way. So start investing the hours in improving yourself. Nearly every breakout success has that level of preparation behind it.

As to your job... Never stop shopping around and improving yourself; you are NEVER too old to acquire new skills. Sure, a second run at college may be out of the question because reasons, but there are thousands of other ways to improve yourself. You can follow tutorials and free courses online (MIT OpenCourseWare, EdX, Coursera, the list goes on), you can get involved in makerspaces, you can read books, get private tutoring, attend tradeschools, take apprenticeships, volunteer at places. The list goes on. As an artist, it also never hurts to do little commission works online to help pad out your portfolio. Most of it isn't going to be creative work, but it will force you to draw things you don't normally draw.

On the subject of relationships... Ehh... don't look for an SO while you're depressed. That's just asking for an abusive relationship.

Eventually you'll get to some place that satisfies you, it's just perseverance and willpower.

[Skeppio]

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Don't let the depression monster eat you. Stop thinking about how your life isn't what you want it to be and start being glad it isn't worse as you work to improve yourself. Negative visualization actually helps in a strange way, I suggest you read more on that in a book on Stoicism, it's a topic too in depth and I'm really new to it, myself. It's helping me pull out of a horrific depression spiral that has been keeping me from even attempting to draw/be creative, so maybe it might help you, too. If not, knowing more classic philosophy can never hurt.

The depression monster consumed me and left nothing but a husk a long time ago, you're way too late there. And thinking that my life could be worse hasn't helped me before. It's like seeing someone get shot to death and think "wow, I'm lucky i only got stabbed". Not being the worst outcome does not make an outcome good or enjoyable. It usually just makes me afraid that one misstep will send me tumbling down into the "even worse".

As an example, you have a car to drive and get hours towards your permit in. That in and of itself puts you ahead of many people, but it's easy to forget that you could find yourself lacking access to a car at all. Just spend a few minutes each morning to imagine how much harder it would be to get those hours without a car, and you'll find yourself enjoying the opportunity to get the hours more. It sounds weird, but it works- things can always get worse, and being aware of that will help you value the things you have and help you overcome the depression monster whispering in your ear that you don't deserve something.

I don't currently have a car, its repairs to get it roadworthy aren't finished yet and won't be for around a week. And again, I know things can get worse because they constantly do get worse for me.

As for your art? It sounds like you've got two problems, the first is real- you're at a skill plateau. The only way to get to the next plateau is to practice and push yourself. Draw things you don't normally draw, draw from life, try speed drawing, for all that's important to you, make sure you draw a little each day. Every plateau you ascend, the next one is taller and takes more work to climb. You just have to keep moving forward, one step at a time.

It's dependant on my style. I use a vector program to draw, my hands are too shaky and un-coordinated for drawing on a tablet, and I'd used one of those frequently for two years at university. :/

The second is somewhere between real and imagined. All art is derivative by nature. More specifically, all art is derivative of nature itself. The entire point of art school is to make you aware of that while teaching you how to use all of it as tools in an arsenal to create something that you personally like drawing. Something incredibly amazing happens to every artist- As you draw, all those little things that inspired you slowly work into your style and congeal around, you keep improving it, and suddenly one day without your being aware of it, you suddenly have your own style. Sometimes you go "I want to try something" and like it, sometimes you show a friend and they comment on something you weren't consciously aware of, the genesis is different for each person, but it happens.

It's not that hard to come up with something at least distinct from the rest. Though that's where I fall flat. And I'm not aiming to be a professional-level artist, it's just something I do for fun. And it's frustrating me because my usual "escape the sads" method is only adding to the sads.

This goes right back to the skill plateau concept, you just have to keep at it and keep trying. There's a theory that achieving mastery of something takes 10,000 hours of practice- it's a horrible generalization, but it's true in a descriptive way. So start investing the hours in improving yourself. Nearly every breakout success has that level of preparation behind it.

Really? Pretty much every success (the very few I've had) that I've had have been pure luck. Eg: My current job. My boss just happened to look at the job centre I was registered with, and I just happened to be the only person there with computer/programming knowledge. Working didn't do much there, luck played the biggest role. Times where it's all been hard work tend to blow up in my face.

As to your job... Never stop shopping around and improving yourself; you are NEVER too old to acquire new skills. Sure, a second run at college may be out of the question because reasons, but there are thousands of other ways to improve yourself. You can follow tutorials and free courses online (MIT OpenCourseWare, EdX, Coursera, the list goes on), you can get involved in makerspaces, you can read books, get private tutoring, attend tradeschools, take apprenticeships, volunteer at places. The list goes on. As an artist, it also never hurts to do little commission works online to help pad out your portfolio. Most of it isn't going to be creative work, but it will force you to draw things you don't normally draw.

It depends on how marketable those skills are. It's a bit late for me to try and find something that could set me on a new career path, and I'd be risking not being able to find a job again. For art, I've only ever gotten one commission request, and I turned it down because I was feeling overworked at the time. In retrospect, I feel like an insane idiot.

On the subject of relationships... Ehh... don't look for an SO while you're depressed. That's just asking for an abusive relationship.

You realise depression doesn't just go away right? You're basically saying to never seek a relationship, which is counter-productive since my isolation is a big contributor to my depression.

Eventually you'll get to some place that satisfies you, it's just perseverance and willpower.

When people say that, I think "how long"? Surely there's got to be a point where one must cut their losses. I can't just keep going into certain failure forever, what's the point in that?

[Alent]

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The depression monster consumed me and left nothing but a husk a long time ago, you're way too late there. And thinking that my life could be worse hasn't helped me before. It's like seeing someone get shot to death and think "wow, I'm lucky i only got stabbed". Not being the worst outcome does not make an outcome good or enjoyable. It usually just makes me afraid that one misstep will send me tumbling down into the "even worse".

I don't think that's true at all, it's never too late.

The trick to negative visualization is in the framing. It's not just about things "not being the worst outcome". It's about teaching yourself to value the things you have by not taking them for granted.

It's dependant on my style. I use a vector program to draw, my hands are too shaky and un-coordinated for drawing on a tablet, and I'd used one of those frequently for two years at university. :/

I know that feeling. I injured my dominant arm years ago and have struggled to draw anything resembling a line since, have you ever tried using malt-sticks, a tablet glove, or other kinds of wrist supports? A software change might help, too, not all jitter correction is created equally.

It's not that hard to come up with something at least distinct from the rest. Though that's where I fall flat. And I'm not aiming to be a professional-level artist, it's just something I do for fun. And it's frustrating me because my usual "escape the sads" method is only adding to the sads.

You realise depression doesn't just go away right? You're basically saying to never seek a relationship, which is counter-productive since my isolation is a big contributor to my depression.

Depression doesn't go away, but it is something you can gain control over. The emotional place you're describing with the two quotes I moved together? That's the emotional place I was in for a solid twelve years. I grew up drawing for fun, nearly all of my friends came from my art, and then near the end of my "year off" I took after highschool graduation while I decided what career I wanted to pursue, I fell and dropped a 45 pound backpack on my forearm.

For years I couldn't draw without wanting to cry. My arm looks okay on the outside, but inside when I draw the muscles between my thumb and elbow begin to spasm so bad that they start to burn, and no amount of stretching will prevent it because it's a symptom of connective tissue damage that never healed. I had five doctors and nearly twenty physical or occupational therapists either misdiagnose it or say they had no idea and wouldn't take me on as a patient. During that time I had multiple insurance companies drop me sequentially and finally, while paying doctors out of my parents' pocketbook I found one orthopedic doctor who could correctly diagnose it. By then the damage had become so permanent that the best I could hope for was reducing the pain.

I gave up my hobbies since they all made my arm burn with pain, I put all my dreams and aspirations on hold because they were unaffordable and there was always a less productive way to waste time, I worked in a family IT business that I hate to the point that my cellphone ringing and suicidal thoughts were and still are synonymous, and during the worst of my angry rants about how much I hated my life I pushed nearly every friend I have away, I met "friends" that took or tried to take advantage of how vulnerable I was, before finally, out of desperation, as some of the few friends I have left tried and failed to help, I found some things that worked. Now here I am, thirty-something and slowly picking up the flaming pieces of my life, slowly reconnecting with friends, pursuing old dreams, and finally feeling like I'm myself again for the first time in my adult life.

You can get the depression under control. You'll have to find a method that works for you, but it can be done. For me it was using negative visualization to make me value the few things I had left. Now a few months later I'm drawing again and my creativity is back. The pain is worse and some nights I stare at the ceiling and struggle with depression, but the next day I start with my visualization routine first thing and treat the day as a fresh start and enjoy my hobbies amidst the day's tasks.

So I'm not saying "Never get into a relationship". I wouldn't insult someone like that. Gaining control of your depression is hard, and you'll backslide when you least expect it, but you can do it. Once you get it under control, it just makes you stronger and puts you in a better place to pursue a relationship from.

Really? Pretty much every success (the very few I've had) that I've had have been pure luck. Eg: My current job. My boss just happened to look at the job centre I was registered with, and I just happened to be the only person there with computer/programming knowledge. Working didn't do much there, luck played the biggest role. Times where it's all been hard work tend to blow up in my face.

It depends on how marketable those skills are. It's a bit late for me to try and find something that could set me on a new career path, and I'd be risking not being able to find a job again. For art, I've only ever gotten one commission request, and I turned it down because I was feeling overworked at the time. In retrospect, I feel like an insane idiot.

You're looking at it wrong, tho'. The time spent acquiring that computer/programming knowledge created that chance. Without those skills you might still be looking. Every skill you acquire is something that has the potential to open a door. You shouldn't acquire it thinking "THIS door will open", that's not how it works. Every skill you acquire builds a more complete you and that more complete you will create opportunities based on the skills you have. (This is the secret to "creating luck".)

Network with people at your job and attend career workshops in things that interest you, find out what skills are needed and go learn the things that seem interesting or are needed. Every skill you learn is a tool that you then have a chance to find a use for- there is no such thing as a truly useless skill.

When people say that, I think "how long"? Surely there's got to be a point where one must cut their losses. I can't just keep going into certain failure forever, what's the point in that?

It doesn't sound to me like you're going into certain failure. Place more value and confidence in yourself and your abilities.

[TechnOkami]

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I've had my fair share of suicidal thoughts, as an artist too I might add. To be honest, suicide is something I vehemently dislike, because if I start to contemplate suicide as a means of release from, well, everything, it means I've fully given up hope of there being anything in life that gives me happiness. And I know that's not true, and it makes me angry at myself that I've fallen so low within my mental self deprivation and self-loathing that suicide starts to seem like the only way out.

The thing about depression, which I've come to realize over having it, is that it's as grievous as any physical wound left untreated, only it attacks your mind and thoughts. This is where the typical spiels of treatment would come in, but you likely know all that already. I will only say that it helps, and works to put everything in perspective with a professional. Physical activity on a semi-regular basis also helps. I initially thought it wouldn't, because I did football for several years and was depressed at the time. However, the mental environment of football combined with depression doesn't exactly make for a healthy healing mental environment. So, working out isn't for anything or anyone at that point, but yourself. I'd lie if I said it was boring, which is why I'm currently on Movie #2 of the extended edition of Lord of the Rings.

But returning to depression and suicide, I will never truly do so. Both because I am too afraid to do so and because I know I can feel happiness even in the darkness of my mental states. Because I can still feel happiness, I will strive to continue to feel and do what makes me happy. I would rather live a vague and chance life full of doubt with the occasional glimpse of light than face the permanent unknown of death. Not only would I be giving up the chance for happiness, I would make those precious few who are close to me miserable with my death, and I would not do such a thing.

As for not enjoying the art you make, there is a lot of it you will not enjoy. You have to keep doing it though, or else you do not improve. I am in the same boat as you, so as much of a personal journey being an artist can be, you're not the only one.

[Skeppio]

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I don't think that's true at all, it's never too late.

The trick to negative visualization is in the framing. It's not just about things "not being the worst outcome". It's about teaching yourself to value the things you have by not taking them for granted.

I think there has to be a limit. You can't just keep banging your head against a wall forever. Sometimes it's better to cut one's losses.
I don't take what I have for granted. Hell, I don't deserve what I do have anyway.

I know that feeling. I injured my dominant arm years ago and have struggled to draw anything resembling a line since, have you ever tried using malt-sticks, a tablet glove, or other kinds of wrist supports? A software change might help, too, not all jitter correction is created equally.

I'm also very untalented when I try to draw normally. It always ends up really ugly. Jitter correction can't be that big an influence when I can barely draw a fish.

Depression doesn't go away, but it is something you can gain control over. The emotional place you're describing with the two quotes I moved together? That's the emotional place I was in for a solid twelve years. I grew up drawing for fun, nearly all of my friends came from my art, and then near the end of my "year off" I took after highschool graduation while I decided what career I wanted to pursue, I fell and dropped a 45 pound backpack on my forearm.

For years I couldn't draw without wanting to cry. My arm looks okay on the outside, but inside when I draw the muscles between my thumb and elbow begin to spasm so bad that they start to burn, and no amount of stretching will prevent it because it's a symptom of connective tissue damage that never healed. I had five doctors and nearly twenty physical or occupational therapists either misdiagnose it or say they had no idea and wouldn't take me on as a patient. During that time I had multiple insurance companies drop me sequentially and finally, while paying doctors out of my parents' pocketbook I found one orthopedic doctor who could correctly diagnose it. By then the damage had become so permanent that the best I could hope for was reducing the pain.

I gave up my hobbies since they all made my arm burn with pain, I put all my dreams and aspirations on hold because they were unaffordable and there was always a less productive way to waste time, I worked in a family IT business that I hate to the point that my cellphone ringing and suicidal thoughts were and still are synonymous, and during the worst of my angry rants about how much I hated my life I pushed nearly every friend I have away, I met "friends" that took or tried to take advantage of how vulnerable I was, before finally, out of desperation, as some of the few friends I have left tried and failed to help, I found some things that worked. Now here I am, thirty-something and slowly picking up the flaming pieces of my life, slowly reconnecting with friends, pursuing old dreams, and finally feeling like I'm myself again for the first time in my adult life.

You can get the depression under control. You'll have to find a method that works for you, but it can be done. For me it was using negative visualization to make me value the few things I had left. Now a few months later I'm drawing again and my creativity is back. The pain is worse and some nights I stare at the ceiling and struggle with depression, but the next day I start with my visualization routine first thing and treat the day as a fresh start and enjoy my hobbies amidst the day's tasks.

So I'm not saying "Never get into a relationship". I wouldn't insult someone like that. Gaining control of your depression is hard, and you'll backslide when you least expect it, but you can do it. Once you get it under control, it just makes you stronger and puts you in a better place to pursue a relationship from.

Depression isn't a force one can control. It'll keep coming back to me at the worst possible time, and there's nothing I can do about it.

I dunno, if I had some horrible injury, at least I'd have some reason for my failings. My inability to do things would have an explanation beyond "Skep is just a worthless inferior being".

My dreams have been on hold since I entered the workforce. That's just how life works, unless you're at the top. It doesn't matter if I enjoy my job or not, it makes me profitable and worthwhile, so I have no right to dream of anything more. Dreams are for people rich and powerful enough to claim them. The rest of us are just their stepping stones. Such is life.

My method was drawing, but realising how terrible I am at it has soured that. My method now is realising each day means I'm one step closer to death, and maybe this night will be the one where I get to die in my sleep. Fingers crossed.

In my experience, no matter what attitude I have, I'm always rejected. Depression makes no difference, I'm unwanted anyway.

You're looking at it wrong, tho'. The time spent acquiring that computer/programming knowledge created that chance. Without those skills you might still be looking. Every skill you acquire is something that has the potential to open a door. You shouldn't acquire it thinking "THIS door will open", that's not how it works. Every skill you acquire builds a more complete you and that more complete you will create opportunities based on the skills you have. (This is the secret to "creating luck".)

Network with people at your job and attend career workshops in things that interest you, find out what skills are needed and go learn the things that seem interesting or are needed. Every skill you learn is a tool that you then have a chance to find a use for- there is no such thing as a truly useless skill.

It didn't make the chance magically happen. My boss could've gone to any job centre in the area. It was pure luck that he chose the one I was at, and pure luck that I had no competitors. Nothing but luck, not one ounce of my skill or ability or hard work had any influence.
There are no careers that interest me, nothing that does interest me is profitable enough to make a job out of. I can think of countless useless skills. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of a single useful skill I have. Any idiot who knows what a computer is could do my job better than me.

It doesn't sound to me like you're going into certain failure. Place more value and confidence in yourself and your abilities.

I'll place confidence on my abilities when they're worthy of being confident about. I'm not going to lie to myself and believe that I'm better than I am. I am worthless and doomed to fail, not because of my attitude, but because of my abilities and lack thereof.

[Aolbain]

So, a few hours ago i found out that one of my oldest friends died yesterday. We got out of touch these last few years but managed to, if not reconnect at least meet up a few times these last months. I don't even know how to feel, it just feels so bizarre.

[Alent]

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I think there has to be a limit. You can't just keep banging your head against a wall forever. Sometimes it's better to cut one's losses.
I don't take what I have for granted. Hell, I don't deserve what I do have anyway.

I agree there's a limit, but I refuse to apply it to life itself. Einstein's definition of madness is doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results. If what you're doing isn't working, then a different approach is in order. One of my favorite sayings, cliche as it is, is "Where there's life, there's hope."

For me, a change in perspective did it. I had hoped I could share that with you and help you. Right now it feels as if I've only made it worse, and if I have, I'm sorry.

I'm not really sure what to say from here, so I'll keep it brief.

I'm also very untalented when I try to draw normally. It always ends up really ugly. Jitter correction can't be that big an influence when I can barely draw a fish.

Looking at your avatar, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Even if that's a case of "one good drawing every seven years", I still see potential.

Keep at your art, and don't let your dissatisfaction deceive you into thinking you're inferior, because part of you will always be dissatisfied specifically because you can always find things to improve on, no matter how good you get.

Depression isn't a force one can control. It'll keep coming back to me at the worst possible time, and there's nothing I can do about it.

I dunno, if I had some horrible injury, at least I'd have some reason for my failings. My inability to do things would have an explanation beyond "Skep is just a worthless inferior being".

Depression is a force you can control. I didn't say it was easy, just that it was possible. There's always an excuse you can hide in, there's always someone else you can blame, but if you work towards getting better, you can overcome it.

What TechnOkami said is also really good.