Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Trixie]

I never take anything 4chan has to say seriously, ever.

What about 3++ review, then? It seems to be most unbiased (as in, not rose/dark tinted glasses) critical review I read about it. IMHO.

Anyway, Tyranids have artifacts now? Who was the genius who produced this brilliant bit of not-at-all-lore-breaking codex homogenisation? Probably the same one who brought back armory after 5th edition finally got it right.

Maybe now that the old FAQ's invalidated, Tyranids will get to man emplaced weapons again?

I wouldn't hold my breath, but then again, daemons can do it, which if anything is even more bizzare.

Which list would that be, then? Anything more than 3 Deep Striking units needs to be really careful about what it's doing in order to not get shot off the board in one turn.

Oh, right, I forgot you can shoot at Drop Pods, too.

GK, Daemons, BA, Termicide, Dropsuits, DA, half a dozen drop pod armies, a range of flyers off the top of my head? If you take intercept out of the game we'll be right back to 'I land 20 sternguard/wolf guard/descent of angels honor guard/Mordak and wreck your stuff without any chance of reprisal because it's so fun for the receiving player'.

They'd be the same. BS2.

My point was, orks would be always able to fire for full effect for some reason, while more accurate units would suffer. I think Eldan has it right, that should be minuses to BS instead.

You mean aside from the massive buffs that shooting units have in 6th Ed. anyway? If you want to balance the game, Assault needs to be viable. Part of that is removing Overwatch.

Overwatch. Remove front models first. Guess what, you're no longer in Charge range. Not only did you not Charge, but I got to kill your models in your turn. Overwatch is awesome!

But the shooting armies need it. I'd agree to nerf, such as overwatch being less effective if you fired during your turns, but it's way easier to abuse charges than overwatch, IMHO.

Tyranids are I4 and/or 5. Throw in a change to the Fleet rule to reflect the change in Charge moves and they're fine.

Um, quite a lot of definitely assault MCs are I1 or I2. That would cripple them even further.

Necrons shouldn't be in combat. Therefore they shouldn't Charge. Nerf? I don't care. It fits the theme. Not Assaulting then becomes Necrons' schtick, same as non-Kroot, non-Riptide Tau.

Then why they have nearly dozen assault units? And what they would do after both removing overwatch and nerf to their CC? Go back to 'autolose out' weak?

Change Power Weapons back to what they used to be? Point is, there needs to be a reason to take Axes instead of Power Fists.

Being cheaper, +1A, takeable on units that have no access to PF? Sure, being reduced to I2 instead of I1 would be good, but they are mostly fine, I feel.

How is that huge? For Tyranids, it only stops Alpha Warriors from joining Carnifex Broods. Which they shouldn't be doing anyway. The idea is to prevent Tau Riptide Commander nonsense. Since that's the only notable example I can think of, there is no reason anyway that ICs should be able to join Monstrous Creatures.

Hive/Tyrant Guard? Ok, I guess they could be exception along with O'Vesa with no one else being capable of joining MC.

Yes. You should be able to Deny Blessings.

But that would drastically change balance of units that rely on powers to do anything. GK, daemons, as things stand you can deny even necrons and tyranid 'most definitely not warp powers but still using the same mechanism powers', making a huge chunk of armies too weak. Do we see anyone at all in fluff denying force swords or enemies making themselves stronger?

Because it's broken. If I was 'balancing' the game, like the exercise intends, this would go a long way to fixing several broken things that are only - and I do mean only - taken just for gimmicks. The only reason I ally in Dark Angel Librarians is for Divination, Fearless, a Power Field, and on the odd occasion PF (Chaos Marines). I should not be allowed to do that.

See below. I'd balance it to any way, but would leave more cinematic possibilities alive. There is nothing logically forbidding space marine commander from leading another chapter's forces (Ventris and Deatchwatch, anyone?), the more broken combos can be dealt with simply by already existing mechanism, 'buff X only works on models drawn from army Y', just the writers need to be less useless.

Codex: Inquisition already gives free Inquisitor Battle Brothers to all Imperial armies. You may as well just open it all the way to prevent 'gimmicks' and drop the Inquisition Codex 'cause it's crap. Sure, all Imperial armies now have Coteaz. No tax. No. Force a Troops tax.
- This is why C:I is banned in the first place. If you want Grey Knights, Ally in Grey Knights.

I think the problem lies with C:I, dataslates, and formations, aka cash grabs. None of this is in the ally matrix, which is why I considered it to be fine and preferred it to current 'pay to win' system.

The Matrix is clunky and dumb. Throw in the Faction system to bring Sisters out of the hellhole that they're in.

But the matrix isn't really problem with Sisters. I love that faction, but I feel the matrix is mostly right, and they wouldn't really cooperate with these factions as described. I'd change it a touch in a few places, but it's not the real problem Sororitas have. The problem is that writer of last 2 codices was utterly useless.

The only thing I'd change in matrix is give allies to tyranids (as tau/eldar/human genestealer cults) and limit desperate alliance units, say on 'come the apocalypse' you can't bring more than one unit from elites/hs/fa slots of the ally. I'd balance alliances by limiting aid/synergy the armies give to each other the less close they are.

If you want to talk about balance, take a look at the Top 8 armies in the game right now, in order;
Eldar/Tau
Tau/Eldar
Eldar/Dark Eldar
Daemons/Chaos Marines
Tau/Farsight
Necrons/Tau
Eldar
Tau/Space Marines

No pure Tau? Say what? Tau + Farsight Enclaves + Broadside Formation is IMHO the most broken, most easily abused thing in the game now. You don't even need Eldar or Inquisition in that, you can still table everyone. It would be also totally immune to any nerfs you propose above, not caring about deny, allies, psychic powers, CC, or anything. It's that good.

See a pattern? Why is this the case? If you want to talk about balance, you need to address why these armies are overwhelmingly superior.

Due to Tau and Eldar being IG and Space Wolves of 6th edition?

Both got massive boosts while everyone else remained mostly Ctrl+v from fifth edition save for minor adjustment and a sprinkle of new units. This can't really be addressed without getting rid of a few writers that nerf/butcher every codex they write.

[Grim Portent]

Idea for the new Tyranid codex, since Venomthropes now give shrouded they can improve the cover save given by screening units. So a squad of Gaunts in front of a Warrior squad and a Venomthrope squad. This should give the Warriors and Venomthropes a 3+ cover save, which is quite a big boost in defence, while keeping Gaunts in synapse range.

[Voidhawk]

Idea for the new Tyranid codex, since Venomthropes now give shrouded they can improve the cover save given by screening units. So a squad of Gaunts in front of a Warrior squad and a Venomthrope squad. This should give the Warriors and Venomthropes a 3+ cover save, which is quite a big boost in defence, while keeping Gaunts in synapse range.

I can see a few issues with that:
-Venomthropes cost 45pts each, and do nothing other than provide the save. They have no guns, and are pretty terrible in CC now that they can't even aid other units with their Lash Whips. For those points you could just get more gaunts and/or warriors to make up for the ones that would die.

-T4 W2 3+ cover is really easy to kill. Even if they sit in cover themselves, there are plenty of Ignores Cover weapons out there. And since they make everything else tougher, they'll be the first thing shot by the enemy. Not being able to join units as a Independent Character hurts.

-The Shroud-Cloud only stretches 6" from the venomthropes, and covers MODELS, not units, in range (unlike many other race's force fields.) How much of a squad of gaunts can fit within 6"? How many of them will then die to the first blast weapon, cover save or not? And then you have to remember that models are removed from the front, and the cloud protects the back.

If there are solutions to these problems, I'd love to hear them.

[Tychris1]

As long as a single member of the squad has shroud, the whole squad has shroud. So actually it's better that the front guys are killed, since then the shroud models remain.

[Voidhawk]

As long as a single member of the squad has shroud, the whole squad has shroud. So actually it's better that the front guys are killed, since then the shroud models remain.

I just realised my mistake, apologies. That is actually a significant improvement.

[Grim Portent]

The intent isn't to make the Gaunts tougher anyway, it's to give the Warriors a 3+ cover save while in the open, the Gaunts main benefit is being in synapse range. The Gaunts having shroud is more or less incidental.

[Drakenkin]

Further, an Eldar/Tau force is able to reverse the flow of battle from losing to winning even with what should be crippling disadvantages. Battle report here. They admit the list could just be not great, but it still seems like a lot of advantages for the nids and they still end up having the battle turn against them. (The battle report is actually two games, the first a straight up battle and the other is stacked in the nid player's favor.)

[Cheesegear]

What about 3++ review, then? It seems to be most unbiased (as in, not rose/dark tinted glasses) critical review I read about it.

Depends who is doing the writing. I also am highly against the way that that site is run, certain articles being written in 'halves' just to increase page views.

Besides, I think in 6th, nobody has rose tinted glasses anymore.

My 'review' can be summed up in two questions.
Is it better than the last book? Yes.
It it competitive against Daemons/Eldar/Tau? Not really.

The answer to the second question means that new Tyranids don't really change the meta (Daemons had multi-MC lists ages ago) like a new Codex should, further, aren't 'competitive', and therefore crap. But, I don't think that way.

The 'crap' Codecies right now are; Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar and Orks.

Dark Angels and Orks find some hope when they use Allies.
Dark Eldar are in a mono-build, that doesn't even work against some opponents.
And Blood Angels are just sad, having only three good units in their Codex that can't be done cheaper and better by Codex Marines.

There is nothing logically forbidding space marine commander from leading another chapter's forces (Ventris and Deatchwatch, anyone?)

Yeah, Deathwatch is exactly the same as taking over another Chapter's units.

No pure Tau? Say what? Tau + Farsight Enclaves + Broadside Formation is IMHO the most broken, most easily abused thing in the game now.

No pure Tau in Top 8 (or even Top 10).
Tau/Farsight is #5.

The crippling thing about Formations and Dataslates is simply point values. Nobody really plays 2000 Points anymore because of the dual FOC, and, rolling dice in 6th Ed takes forever now, so many tournaments have simply cut down the points to make games go faster.

Due to Tau and Eldar being IG and Space Wolves of 6th edition?

Seems that way.

[bluntpencil]

Shadow in the Warp looks like it might hit Eldar and Grey Knights pretty hard, in fact.

It doesn't just lower Ld for Psychic tests... but for morale too. One could put Grey Knights to flight reasonably easily now.

[Voidhawk]

[-snip-]
My 'review' can be summed up in two questions.
Is it better than the last book? Yes.
It it competitive against Daemons/Eldar/Tau? Not really.

The answer to the second question... [-snip-]

Would you mind elaborating on the first question some more? Which gains in particular do you feel outweigh the losses?

[Cheesegear]

Would you mind elaborating on the first question some more? Which gains in particular do you feel outweigh the losses?

First, remember what Tyranids used to have?

HQ: Flyrants or Tervigons
Elites; Hive Guard/Zoans, Doom in Spore
Troops; 20-30 Termagants, 2-3 Tervigons
Fast; Gargoyles
Heavy; Mawlocs, Biovores

This is the only build that Tyranids have. You have one choice to make, Hive Guard or Zoans. That is the only choice you have available to you. Your one trick to win is to hope one or more of your MCs rolls Iron Arm and/or Endurance, and if you don't roll those exact powers two or more times, your goal is to flood the board with Termagants and try and force a draw. Fun, right?

Maybe you can splurge for a unit of Outflanking Hormagaunts with Poison.

The first metric that a Codex needs to pass, is; Does what you currently own, still work? Is it better?

Hive Tyrant; A Hive Tyrant dropped 5 Points, gained a Mastery Level, and gained an extra point of BS. Further, Wings costs half as many points as it used to. Old Adversary was nerfed to Assault only though - but it's also dropped 10 Points. If you've got a Flyrant with dual Devourers, it still works.
BS3rr1, to BS4 is an increase from 58% accuracy to 66% accuracy. So, that's cool.
Then, a Tyrant that drops into Glide mode, can pick up Adrenal Glands, turning the Tyrant into Jump-Fleet. This is good even if you aren't running dual Devourers. Y'know...For Assault.

Hive Guard; Went up 5 points. Lost a point of BS, moved from Lurk to Hunt. But, instead of the ambiguous rule of 'sometimes you get Cover saves, sometimes you don't', the unit flat out now just has Ignores Cover - and Homing. Still works.

Zoanthropes; They got worse by being grouped into Brotherhood of Psykers. But, they also dropped 10 Points apiece. Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about these because the other Psychic Power they can roll has the potential to be good or bad. But, everyone in 6th has random powers now so I don't know what you're complaining for. Where is my Codex Marine Null Zone? Where is it!? Everything is fine until they nerf the one thing that you like, right? Where was I? ...Next.

Termagants; Are cheaper per model. And 'cheaper' and 'better' mean the same thing. And Spinefists are back OMGWTFBBQ!!! Like properly not a terrible idea to have.

Tervigons; Look, they deserve to be nerfed. They cost the same as they always did. Except now they don't give out Poison and Furious Charge to a shooty unit. What? Your Psychic Power is random? Please. Tell that to Thousand Sons players who can no longer guarantee having Bolt of Tzeentch. You need to roll dice? Please. Tzeentch ain't got time for yo' problems!

Termagants (x30) - 150 Points
Tervigon (x3); Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst - 585 Points
Total: 735 Points

No. Seriously. Look at the point expenditure it used to take to grab Monstrous Creatures in your Troops slot, that could spawn even more Troops and spawn units that have more models than it took to unlock them. Under the new system, you're looking at;

Termagants (x60) - 240 Points
Tervigons (x2) - 390 Points
Total: 630 Points

No. Seriously. Look at the amount of models you now have on the board, for 100 less points, you have double the Termagants, and only one less Tervigon. Can somebody please tell me how this ruins Tyranids forever? Seriously internet, the sky isn't falling. You knew Tervigons were going to get nerfed and it could have been a lot worse than this. Maybe you can spend that extra 100 Points on 25 Devourers, or something? Oh man, the nerf to Tervigons is SO AWFUL.

Gargoyles; Also get Hunt. Their 'Poison' is slightly worse since now you have roll To Wound like real 40K Poison, instead of WHFB Poison. But, it's fairly hilarious since a Hit - not Wound - is what generates a Blind effect. Yeah. That's right. I hit one guy in the face, and now all 30 Guardsmen in the Blob are Blinded. This is how Blind works. Then consider that each and every Gargoyle in the unit has a Blind effect...And...This really, really needs to get Errata'd.

Mawlocs; 60 Points less because now it can't Burrow on Turn 1. Still, leave it in Reserves on Turn 1 so it doesn't get shot at, since it doesn't really mishap anyway, you don't really lose anything. What did Mawlocs gain, though? Ignores Cover. That's a huge buff. If you don't think -60 Points is a good trade for Ignores Cover, you need to go sit in a corner and think about the game some more. The other benefit is that it hits twice. So, no, you probably can't kill a Monstrous Creature, but you'll seriously damage anybody who is still under the impression that MSU is a good idea. S6, AP2 Ignores Cover? Did your 5-man Grav-Gun Bike unit implode? No? I try again. Oh, there it goes.

Biovores; Gained a Wound, I, and A for 5 points less. And has Hunt now. Nothing but buffs.

So, what's worse? Tervigons. Sure. Probably 15 more points than they need to be. But, that's about it. Zoanthropes aren't great either, but, that just means buy more Hive Guard.
Until Gargoyles get Errata'd, they're pretty lulzy.

So, what 5th Ed. was currently working with still works, and in some cases, better (i.e; Cheaper). So, now that we've sorted that out, what units did the new Codex buff, that are actually usable now?

Lictors dropped 15 Points and can start on the board now. Infiltrate + re-roll Charge. Thumbs up. Has 'Not Hive Guard syndrome'. But, other than that, pretty good.

Venomthropes dropped 10 Points and everyone behind an Aegis has a 2+ Cover Save, now! Maybe you're thinking Warriors might actually live longer than Turn 1, eh?

Haruspex doesn't suck. If you want to build Assault, and back it up with a Jump-Fleet Hive Tyrant, you can do that.

Pyrovores; Every unit takes a number of hits equal to the number of models near it? ...What? This is Doom Scythe level of "Editing? What editing?" Aside from the gross RAW interpretation of the rule though, there's not much else to say.

Sure, none of the Elites are Hive Guard. But, if you've already got one or two units of 'Guard, you can actually make use of the other choices.

Raveners; Give you Red Terror.

Hive Crone; Gives you a Flier that re-rolls To Hit against other Fliers. If you're running Haruspexes instead of Hive Guard, just keep adding more MCs to your list.

Exocrine; Assault 6 Plasma. Yes please.

Tyrannofex; The Rupture Cannon didn't get AP3 or 2 like it should have. But who cares? The T-Fex is like 100 points cheaper now!


In conclusion, what Tyranids had in 5th still works, and they have new toys to play with. Does this answer the question; Are Tyranids better off with the new Codex? Yes, and the answer is 'yes'.

...Oh. Sorry. TERVIGONS GOT ENTIRELY JUSTIFIABLY NERFED. TYRANIDS SUCK NOW. WHAT KIND OF IDIOT STILL PLAYS THEM OMG CRUDDACE IS OBVIOUSLY 50 TIMES WORSE THAN KELLY!!!!

Disclaimer: This entire post was written knowing that Eldar, Tau and Daemons exist. The post assumes that your meta isn't flooded with WAAC players.

[Grim Portent]

I'm somewhat of the opinion that Hive Guard aren't the best elites choice anymore, 2 ignores cover shots per model isn't that great when it's only AP4, S8 is nice but that's mostly good for killing light tanks and that's something most nids can do with their teeth, compared to the Venomthrope which can be a huge save booster now and the Haruspex which is looking to be a durable fire magnet.

[Cheesegear]

killing light tanks and that's something most nids can do with their teeth

Yeah, and Orks are totally awesome and killing tanks because of Power Klaws, right?

[Grim Portent]

Yeah, and Orks are totally awesome and killing tanks because of Power Klaws, right?

My point was that when the best HQ is a flying hive tyrant and the best FA is probably the Crone and Harpy you have a good deal of stuff that can just land for a turn and smash most vehicles in addition to having skyfire, the Crone might not even need to land to kill most vehicles because it has a fantastic vector strike. Meanwhile you can free up Elites slots for a defensive multiplier that makes your Troops + HS harder to kill, and with nid Troops you really need things to shore up your saves while you have plenty that can kill vehicles, either by glancing with S6 shots by the dozen, blasting with heavy venom cannons, vector striking, or just landing and smashing, and that's all in the HQ and FA slots which can't be used for much else.

The reason for bringing Hive Guard is to kill vehicles and try to kill flyers, the nids have stuff that does both of those better now, so why not use those elite slots to make the entire army shrouded. Possibly including the flyers.

[Cheesegear]

My point was that when the best HQ is a flying hive tyrant and the best FA is probably the Crone and Harpy you have a good deal of stuff that can just land for a turn and smash most vehicles in addition to having skyfire

Who lands to destroy something in their own turn? Especially something as piddly as light vehicles?

The other important factor of the Impaler Cannon is S8. The AP4 doesn't matter. With Ignores Cover, there goes the Quad-Gun, which helps your own Armour 4+ Fliers not get killed.

The reason for bringing Hive Guard is to kill vehicles and try to kill flyers

The reason for bringing Hive Guard is S8, Ignores Cover. Can stay out of LoS.

the nids have stuff that does both of those better now

Tyranids have nothing that IDs Space Marines and T4 Multi-Wounds except Rupture Cannons. And three Hive Guard is cheaper than a Tyrannofex. Use the spare points to buy a Mawloc for more Ignores Cover.

I'm not saying you should walk around with 6+ Hive Guard every game. But, you shouldn't be leaving them at home, either.

[Grim Portent]

Who lands to destroy something in their own turn? Especially something as piddly as light vehicles?

That would only be for vehicles that can't be vector striked/glanced or cannoned to death.

The other important factor of the Impaler Cannon is S8. The AP4 doesn't matter. With Ignores Cover, there goes the Quad-Gun, which helps your own Armour 4+ Fliers not get killed.

Isn't the Quad-Gun T7 with a 3+ armour save? Wounding on 3s and being saved on 3s isn't great.

The reason for bringing Hive Guard is S8, Ignores Cover. Can stay out of LoS.

Can't argue with this.

Tyranids have nothing that IDs Space Marines and T4 Multi-Wounds except Rupture Cannons. And three Hive Guard is cheaper than a Tyrannofex. Use the spare points to buy a Mawloc for more Ignores Cover.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't had a chance to look at the book since yesterday and don't have it to hand, but the Hive Crone vector strike S8, and the Heavy Venom Cannon is S9 as I recall, though I may be mistaken.

I'm not saying you should walk around with 6+ Hive Guard every game. But, you shouldn't be leaving them at home, either.

I'm of the opinion that using the ones you have is sensible, the alternatives all cost a lot and would work better with a different army build than most people will have, but I wouldn't be buying new ones myself.

[Drakenkin]

Quite frankly, I don't think any of those outweigh the negatives, and I'm not talking about the tervigon nerf. I'm talking about synapse, and how destroying the controller beasties make the entire army fold like cheap, extremely easy to fold paper. Ignoring LOS and cover is great until you realize that nearly half the time without a babysitter they have to try and shoot something that they do have LOS to, and if you're out of everyone's LOS that means they are out of yours too. And really, hunt is one of the better charts to have to roll on. Hivemind forbid you're out of synapse range and your brood has feed! I can't think of another army that requires special babysitters or they kill themselves.

[bluntpencil]

Quite frankly, I don't think any of those outweigh the negatives, and I'm not talking about the tervigon nerf. I'm talking about synapse, and how destroying the controller beasties make the entire army fold like cheap, extremely easy to fold paper. Ignoring LOS and cover is great until you realize that nearly half the time without a babysitter they have to try and shoot something that they do have LOS to, and if you're out of everyone's LOS that means they are out of yours too. And really, hunt is one of the better charts to have to roll on. Hivemind forbid you're out of synapse range and your brood has feed! I can't think of another army that requires special babysitters or they kill themselves.

Well, the Imperial Guard get killed by their babysitters...

[Requizen]

Quite frankly, I don't think any of those outweigh the negatives, and I'm not talking about the tervigon nerf. I'm talking about synapse, and how destroying the controller beasties make the entire army fold like cheap, extremely easy to fold paper. Ignoring LOS and cover is great until you realize that nearly half the time without a babysitter they have to try and shoot something that they do have LOS to, and if you're out of everyone's LOS that means they are out of yours too. And really, hunt is one of the better charts to have to roll on. Hivemind forbid you're out of synapse range and your brood has feed! I can't think of another army that requires special babysitters or they kill themselves.

Alright, what has Feed? Tyrant Guard, Hormagaunts (which are still a poor choice for Troops most of the time), Ripper Swarms (which were poor before and got a points increase, so you'll never actually use), Pyrovore (hahaha no), Raveners, Hive Crone, Trygon, Mawloc, and Carnifexes.

Which of these have a real danger of eating themselves? Tyrant Guard will never be out of Synapse unless your opponent is rolling a **** ton of precision shots, else they'll be dead before the Tyrant/Swarmie. Hive Crone, Trygon, and Mawloc are single models, so they can't (instead just getting the next result, which isn't too bad).

Pyrovores and Ripper Swarms are barely ever taken as it is, and from the looks of the changes (Ripper increasing in cost for some reason, Pyro still being ****), you won't have to worry about them in 6th.

Hormagaunts are still (in my opinion) a poor choice. Being unchanged (since the price evens out if you take Toxin Sacs) and still a melee only unit, they're kinda bad to take.

Raveners and Carnifexes are the only ones that are realistic problems, unless you take it on yourself to try and make Horms work as a troop choice. Two realistic units that have a chance to hurt themselves if you position poorly or your opponent snipes strategic targets doesn't seem that bad to me, considering Nids don't have really anything else comparable to results like Get Hot, or the Nova Reactor backfiring and killing a Riptide. Prime, even with the price increase, might be worth considering if you're rolling a Carnifex brood and want LOS shenanigans.

While Warriors are still a poor choice for your core Troops, I think bringing 1~2 is compulsory now just for the Synapse coverage. Put them in heavy cover, maybe near a Venomthrope, and focus down anything that can ID them early on with your FMCs or Deep Striking MCs.

Of course, this is me erring on the side of optimism without seeing it in action. The one Battle Report I watched was really dumb, since they guy took literally only 2 Synapse creatures and deployed in the middle of the board, in the open, against a tournament level Taudar list. I think there's plenty good in the codex and people will have to start changing their lists from the old monobuild, which is fine by me.

[Issabella]

Added Mawlock bonus, it's barrage, so accurate burrowing/snipping.

[Drakenkin]

Alright, what has Feed? Tyrant Guard, Hormagaunts (which are still a poor choice for Troops most of the time), Ripper Swarms (which were poor before and got a points increase, so you'll never actually use), Pyrovore (hahaha no), Raveners, Hive Crone, Trygon, Mawloc, and Carnifexes.

Which of these have a real danger of eating themselves? Tyrant Guard will never be out of Synapse unless your opponent is rolling a **** ton of precision shots, else they'll be dead before the Tyrant/Swarmie. Hive Crone, Trygon, and Mawloc are single models, so they can't (instead just getting the next result, which isn't too bad).

Pyrovores and Ripper Swarms are barely ever taken as it is, and from the looks of the changes (Ripper increasing in cost for some reason, Pyro still being ****), you won't have to worry about them in 6th.

Hormagaunts are still (in my opinion) a poor choice. Being unchanged (since the price evens out if you take Toxin Sacs) and still a melee only unit, they're kinda bad to take.

Raveners and Carnifexes are the only ones that are realistic problems, unless you take it on yourself to try and make Horms work as a troop choice. Two realistic units that have a chance to hurt themselves if you position poorly or your opponent snipes strategic targets doesn't seem that bad to me, considering Nids don't have really anything else comparable to results like Get Hot, or the Nova Reactor backfiring and killing a Riptide. Prime, even with the price increase, might be worth considering if you're rolling a Carnifex brood and want LOS shenanigans.

While Warriors are still a poor choice for your core Troops, I think bringing 1~2 is compulsory now just for the Synapse coverage. Put them in heavy cover, maybe near a Venomthrope, and focus down anything that can ID them early on with your FMCs or Deep Striking MCs.

Of course, this is me erring on the side of optimism without seeing it in action. The one Battle Report I watched was really dumb, since they guy took literally only 2 Synapse creatures and deployed in the middle of the board, in the open, against a tournament level Taudar list. I think there's plenty good in the codex and people will have to start changing their lists from the old monobuild, which is fine by me.

Everything I've seen shows that synapse goes down easy-peasy. And once they do the army starts falling apart. Focusing those warriors on things that can insta-gib them is easier said than done with their pretty much pitiful range. The venom cannon is nice, but most of your opponents str 8+ is going to be longer range than deathspitters. Crones and harpies are jokes and get shot down early. Str 8 vector strike is nice though. And I only mentioned that feed is the worst table, hunt is the best, and lurk the middle-ground, but still bad. Go to ground? Ugh. Maybe if there weren't so many cover ignoring things out there, but there are. I love nids, I do. I didn't even play tervigon lists before, so that nerf doesn't actually affect me personally. (Though I think the mandatory 30, point increase, AND biomancy being gone was a little overboard.) And I'm glad a lot of the guys I love got cheaper, I'm looking at you carfnifex, I just can't help but look at the codex and think absolutely everything is far too fragile, especially synapse nids.

I want to like the codex, I really do. I'll be keeping my ears open for lists that sound fun to play and are at least semi-competitive. I hope someone on the internet can prove us nay-sayers wrong.

Edit: Not to say I don't understand why the hoard stuff is fragile, it's meant to be drown your opponents in bodies, but warriors, crones, harpies, and such. Not to mention there's nary a 2+ armor save to be found outside of one unit.

[Requizen]

Quick rules clarification:

So a unit can't Charge on the turn that it comes in from Deep Strike. However, if a unit arrives via Deep Strike on the opponents turn, during your subsequent turn, can it Charge?

For example, Nemesor Zandrekh has a special rule where you can bring in a Deep Striking unit into play following the arrival of one of the enemy's reserve units, on their turn. If I Deep Strike in Praetorians or Wraiths (who are both Jump units) on the opponents turn due to this rule, could they then Move, Shoot, and Charge as normal on my turn immediately after?

[Cheesegear]

Added Mawlock bonus, it's barrage, so accurate burrowing/snipping.

That's one of the reasons why Mawlocs got so popular in 6th Edition in the first place. They went from a mediocre unit that kind of might do damage into killing machines. The 'new' Codex does that, too, for less points, and lets them hit twice.

I want to like the codex, I really do. I'll be keeping my ears open for lists that sound fun to play and are at least semi-competitive. I hope someone on the internet can prove us nay-sayers wrong.

Okay, heads up, #realtalk. Cheesegear's Noob-Friendly hat is coming off and we're about to become 'that place' on the internet.

Tyranids is over. What you like no longer matters. Nobody plays the game to have fun. Don't you realise that the only reason to play this game is to win. If you want to win, player Eldar and/or Tau. Because no other Codex even comes close. Daemons has a chance, sometimes. But Daemons have such piss-poor Scoring units that there's obviously no point in playing them, either. If you're in a tournament, you'd better be bringing Eldar and/or Tau. Is your meta flooded with Eldar and/or Tau? Guess how you beat them? That's right! Bring your own Eldar and/or Tau. Don't even try changing your army list to match the meta. Just switch armies entirely because Codex-writers clearly hate you and aren't driven by corporate policy or market economics at all. Everyone knows that the best army is Eldar, so GW are obviously nerfing every army that isn't Eldar just to increase sales of more Eldar. Don't you know that Eldar are just going to Twin-Link Bladestorm all of Tyranids' MCs off the board. What's the point in even bringing Hive Crones, Eldar and Tau don't even use their Fliers anyway. Because those are obviously the only two armies that matter, else why am I even typing? Blood Angels and Dark Angels can count the number of good units in their Codecies on one hand. They have no right to complain. Dark Angels and Blood Angels don't have to deal with Synapse. Synapse is obviously the worst rule in the game. It's not even like all Tyranids' best units have 'Hunt' anyway! Hormagaunts that I don't even use in the first place have Feed! Now I'm not going to use them EVEN MORE! I don't care that a unit of Fearless 'Gants can tie up a Screamer Council for five rounds, nobody plays Daemons! It's all about Eldar and Tau, and how 'Ignores Cover' is totally everywhere outside of those two Codecies, why even bother with Venomthropes when Eldar and/or Tau exist?

...Nobody even plays Marines anyway.


ION; My copy of IA2(2E) is apparently still in the mail. That's what I get for ordering during the holidays. Sorry for anyone waiting for me to tell them whether or not to spend gratuitous amounts of money at ForgeWorld.

[Drakenkin]

@Cheesegear
At first, I was going to rage-post a sarcasm laden response, but I took a step back, took a deep breath, and ok. I've been knee-jerk responding towards the codex. I haven't even played any games with it. I should first, and I will.

[Olinser]

Mawlocs were pure crap in the previous codex, anybody that thought they were good either didn't actually play Tyranids, or they haven't actually looked at the alternative. A Trygon is 10x more effective. A Mawloc if it stays alive, on a six turn game got precisely THREE of its AOE shots off (On the board, burrow first turn, 2nd turn blast, 3rd turn burrow, 4th turn blast, 5th turn burrow, 6th turn blast) - which scatter full distance and half the time won't hit anything. In CC it was extremely poor, with low weapon skill, low attacks, and poor initiative, a squad or two of Marines could shoot and then assault it and actually have a reasonable chance of killing it with grenades. A Trygon Prime, on the other hand, is an absolute terror to deep strike in and assault. 12 S5 shots? 7 attacks with WS5 and rerolling misses? Not to mention synapse.

My first impression of the codex is that they nerfed several aspects that opposing players complained vocally about (Biomancy hive tyrants, doom of malantai), while giving them no real answer to their extreme vulnerability to vehicle heavy armies.

The Warlord table it pretty awful - only one or two useful abilities, the rest are situational at best.

Synapse major headache. Not only is the number of synapse options decreased, but its even MORE negative if you get out of synapse. There is a decent chance that if a Feed unit gets out of synapse half the unit will simply die. They eliminated the Necron phase out rule for a reason - crap like this is NOT balanced or fun to play with.

Shadow in the warp is a major nerf. Mathematically, you had a 50% chance to fail a LD10 on 3d6. With a -3 LD instead, a LD7 has only a 42% chance to fail, and LD6 is 59% to fail instead of 63%. Not only is it worse, but without rolling 3d6, the chance of it inflicting Perils of the Warp is massively decreased.

Hive Tyrant major nerf - Not only can you not roll on Biomancy to try and get Iron Arm, you only get 2+ save in melee combat. Anything you were actually worried about in melee combat already has AP2 or better weapons. The entire reason to take the 2+ armor save upgrade was to get a great save against Missile Launchers. So now missile launchers still wound you on a 2+, and you get no save. Perfect. Old Adversary took a major nerf - it isn't a preferred enemy aura, it only lets the Tyrant itself reroll 1's to hit in CC.

Hive guard took a MASSIVE nerf. They ignore cover (but their old rule ignored almost all cover anyway). Not only are they 5 points more expensive, but they downgraded from BS4 to BS3, and still have poor range. Their only real ranged answer to vehicle armies took a nerf. Great.

Tervigons nerfed to oblivion. Not only can termagants not move after they were spawned, but they can't assault either. Which doesn't really matter, since because the adrenal glands/toxin sacs of the Tervigon aren't granted to the termagaunt, they're useless in assault anyway. I doubt Tervigons are even going to appear in Tyranid armies until the next codex.

Hormagaunts are a bit better, and can run extra distance... but that doesn't really help, because you have to keep them in synapse or they'll eat half the unit. So you're still stuck at whatever speed your synapse creature can move.

Venomthropes are actually pretty decent now, give Shrouded, so you get improved cover saves, but they still suffer from the fact that they are a 2 wound T4 model. So anybody with sense will just blast the venomthrope first to remove the extra save, and THEN kill whatever it was shrouding. But, it is a needed buff.

Carnifexes took a massive BUFF. They got their points MAJORLY cut (from 160 base all the way down to 120 base). Much needed, Carnifexes were decent but WAY overcosted. They also can take an upgrade for Fleet, which is useful. You're still not going to get into melee with a vehicle unless they're dumb, but it will let you get ahold of troops at least.

Since Pyrovores autoexplode now, they could be good.... but no spores. So you have essentially a heavy flamer that explodes when you kill it walking across the field. Seriously.... they thought that was a good idea? I can literally think of no situation where a Pyrovore would be useful, unless your opponent is stupid enough to just let him walk up to them.

Zoanthropes are basically the same, except being nerfed by no deep strike. They got 'upgraded' to mastery level 2, but that doesn't really matter since both of their special Zoan powers are cost 2. So... they basically choose between shooting or casting the one power they rolled from the psychic page. Could be good if they manage to roll FNP, since they'll actually be a bit useful moving across the field to get in range, but you can't deep strike them in to kill vehicles, and they still get doubled by missiles. Again, a big nerf to one of their few answers to vehicle armies.

Haruspex looks interesting... can't comment on it right now as I haven't tried it, but it looks reasonable.

Raveners are in about the same place. Expensive and only a 5+ save so they still are torn apart by standard bolters.

Gargoyles are interesting, Blind looks like it could be pretty good.

Harpies and Crones are still hurt by the massive weakness of flying MC versus vehicles - namely that ANY hit triggers the 3+ save to be grounded, and then torn apart by ranged fire because their saves are poor.

Biovores actually got a pretty big buff. Now, if you miss at ALL, spore mines appear (before you had to miss by 6+ inches, which was borderline impossible). I used biovores before, and will continue to use them happily.

Trygons too a nerf with no full rerolls to misses - but they're still WS5 so they're still hitting most things on a 3+, so they're still monsters in CC.

Mawloc took a nerf (like it needed it). If you don't kill enough guys to make space, you hit them again (good). If you still haven't made space on the 2nd attack, you Mishap (WTF???). So they've moved from 'people complain about it but it really isn't very effective' to full on, 'LOL you took a Mawloc?'

Exocrine looks solid, especially against Marines in the open, but I fail to understand the necessity of a fairly short range weapon taking a BS nerf when moving. It's not THAT good.

Tyrannofex got its points cut, which is good, but stays at BS3, making the Rupture Cannon still like the Mawloc - sounds great on paper, until you realize how little bang you're getting for your buck (nearly 200 points for a single S10 hit per turn, though at least thats better than 265 points for the same thing). However, Acid Spray Tyrannofex is still rockin, with its 2+ save and lower point cost making it a great troop clearer.

Warriors took a huge nerf with the Boneswords now only AP3. At least before you could take Boneswords and go to town on unsuspecting Terminators, and with dual boneswords actually be a huge threat to enemy MC like the Dreadknight. Now even that niche has been removed, and Warriors are nothing more than synapse with devourers.

Overall, I am not impressed. This actually made Tyranids WEAKER against vehicle armies, which they had almost no chance against previously.

EDIT: And oh, by the way, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SKYFIRE WEAPON IN THE ENTIRE CODEX. So not only are Tyranids weak against vehicles, but literally their only counter to Flyers is Flying Montrous Creatures that are inherently weaker than Flyers. Marvelous.

[Rakaydos]

Wait, the Malwac having a mishap is a bad thing?

Most likely result you go back into reserve, ready to deep strike again. Followed by the malwac being placed in the worst possible place... just long enough for it to burrow again.

[Olinser]

Wait, the Malwac having a mishap is a bad thing?

Most likely result you go back into reserve, ready to deep strike again. Followed by the malwac being placed in the worst possible place... just long enough for it to burrow again.

If by 'most likely' you mean 'exactly as likely as either being instakilled or put right in front of a unit that will instakill it', then sure.

[lord_khaine]

Shadow in the warp is a major nerf. Mathematically, you had a 50% chance to fail a LD10 on 3d6. With a -3 LD instead, a LD7 has only a 42% chance to fail, and LD6 is 59% to fail instead of 63%. Not only is it worse, but without rolling 3d6, the chance of it inflicting Perils of the Warp is massively decreased.

Then.. lets try and compare it to just how badly some of the other psyker defenses for nerfed.. shall we..?

Like runes of warding before and after..?

[bluntpencil]

Also, it reduces Psyker leadership for all purposes. Meaning that you're more likely to force them to flee.

[Olinser]

Also, it reduces Psyker leadership for all purposes. Meaning that you're more likely to force them to flee.

It reduces only the Psyker's leadership. Other models are unaffected, and the unit will still use the highest leadership value for tests. It's monstrous against Grey Knights (though ATSKNF negates a lot of it), and not really noticeable against most others, especially as many armies tended to have Psykers in protective units of already-high-leadership models.