Doctor Who Thread V: "Brave heart, Thread." [SPOILERS]

[Brother Oni]

Also, the official Doctor Who tumblr is generally amazing enough to make up for any less-than-pleasant fans.

I agree - just found these two little gems on it:

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[spoiler]After great rumination on what they revealed in the special, I realised that Moffat is once again strategically lying to us.

The thirteenth Doctor is clearly not Peter Capaldi...

It's Peter Capaldi's eyebrows!

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[Eldan]

ON the audios:

Well, difficult to say. Apparently, fans disagree. It depends on which Doctor you want, really. There's also continuity to consider. Less with some Doctor, but the 8th really has pretty much one story that's being continued every episode. At least as far as I've listened to them. I mean, Zagreus isn't very good, but it determines what happens for the next dozen stories or so.

Edit: oh, that was the new doctor. I really didn't quite catch that shot and was wondering what people were gushing about. It went by pretty quickly in series of faces I didn't know all that well, it might have been one of the old ones.

[Ebon_Drake]

iplayer is having problems... I think its being downloaded by one too many people!

By the way anyone catch the names on that board telling you who runs that school at the start?

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I squee'd when I saw it said a certain "I Chesterton" was the school governor. I had to google the headmaster W Coburn though, that's a brilliantly obscure reference.

[Aedilred]

I have a question, during the epic climax when

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you see all the thirteen doctors working together to vanish Gallifrey, and you hear them calling out to each other, did they get back the original actors to record a few lines? I thought I heard Eight, and definitely Seven talking about the coordinates. It'd be nice to know they're still part of the Anniversary in some way.

The actors for the first three Doctors are dead, so they're definitely out. It looked rather like old footage being recycled, even the brief shot we got of the interior of Nine's TARDIs.

However, it looks like all living actors who have played (or will play) the Doctor, except Christopher Ecclestone (as far as I know) did film some footage for the Anniversary one way or another, taking into account the Five(ish) Doctors and Night of the Doctor. And if you're so minded, you could take Sean Pertwee's brief appearance in the Five(ish) Doctors as an acknowledgement of his father's contribution, I suppose.

Actually, that's not quite true, because there are also all those people who've played alternate versions of the Doctor, and those from Curse of Fatal Death, none (?) of whom appeared in the Anniversary footage, but that's hardly all that surprising, because they don't really count.

[Thufir]

Time to respond to everything. I broke the multiquote limit! Twice!

Curly Reviews:

Spoiler: The Next Doctor

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Obviously I'm speaking as someone who knows who both Eleven, Twelve and that there's another Doctor, but it's still fairly obvious that Nexty isn't the Doctor as we usually define him, though he certainly seems to have elements of Ten he's more of a superhero than the Doctor. That make sense?

Ten does have a bit of superhero about him to be fair.
Of course, also David Morrissey was one of the several people who had been rumoured at the time as a possible actor for the next Doctor (As far as I recall, Matt Smith was not one of the rumoured though, so goes to show how good those rumours are...)

The Rev was the latest murder and the Doctor asks "Was he important?" Was it Ten or Eleven (or Nine) who said that though they'd been around for a thousand years they'd never met someone who wasn't important before?

Pretty sure it was Ten.

Either way, for a faux-Doctor Nexty did really well being the Doctor.

Mm. For all that this special has its issues, I liked the character of Jackson Lake.

VW: "Don't you see. My mind is stronger than you ever thought. It dominates, sir. It dominates you. [...] *snip*"

...
..damn, I was much less dirty-minded the last time I watched this special...

I do like that VW is still called th CyberKing. That and CyberQueen just sounds camp.

Actually, though this might be partly because it's you saying it, it makes me imagine a giant Cyber Freddie Mercury.

Question. Thousand of people saw this. So how did people not know what the Cybermen were in the season two finale?

Ah. A very good question. There are two answers: One, RTD just didn't think about it. Two, Moffat sort of retroactively explained it in S5 with the cracks in time messing up people's memories.

N: "Oh. Oh my word. Oh. Oh, goodness me. Well. But this is, but this is nonsense. [...] Complete and utter, wonderful nonsense. How very, very silly." And that sums up Doctor Who very well.

"Nonsense?! Well, yes, perhaps. But oh, what precious nonsense!"

It was okay. There've been better, there've been worse. The climax was exactly the right kind of big, stupid fun but the opening was so twee I was expecting the Doctor to burst into a song about the joys of snow.

...I'd actually be quite amused to see that.

Spoiler: Planet of the Dead

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And what kind of local Brit doesn't know that London offers Oyster Cards. My eighty-four-year-old partially deaf and partially blind Granddad knows about Oyster Cards. You, Thief, are a woman in her mid-twenties whose accent implies you're either from the Greater London area, or at least the Midlands. And guess what, Michelle Ryan is from the Greater London area.

I know now from that little look-up that this is 'Lady Christina de Souza'. 'Lady' Christina apparently has never watched television or read anything in her life given that Oyster Cards were introduced in 2003. And I know that because my eighty-four-year-old Granddad has made a trip every two years to Loughborough (via London) since the 1970s and he kept the first Oyster Card he ever bought. In 2003. When he was seventy-four. By 2009 he had used Oyster Cards for a total of twelve days. He's been partially deaf all my life and I'm in my twenties. Talk about being either sheltered or a complete moron.

Well, that was a bit of stupidity I'd completely forgotten.
I'm now trying to remember when I did rewatch the specials. I think I only did so once. And for that matter it's possible I didn't rewatch all of them.
...actually, it's possible I didn't even rewatch them. I distinctly remember realising I hadn't rewatched them because my DVDs were still in the plastic wrapping, but I'm not sure if I then actually bothered to watch them after removing it.

Is that Lee Evans?

Yes. He annoyed me.

Also, Thief is getting off on this. See, I can see the Doctor and Time Lords in general doing this because they're aliens, but Thief is a human.

Actually I'm pretty sure most Time Lords would be terrified by this situation, since most Time Lords never left the safety and security of Gallifrey.

Flying bus. It's about as stupid as you think. It sounds like something Top Gear would try to do, and they tried to send a Reliant Robin into space.

The flying bus was one of the things in this episode I actually still quite like. The London bus is just so iconically British, so making it that significant (and making it fly) appealed to me.

Also, if bullets are made of metal, and stingrays eat metal isn't that like throwing cream pies in people's faces?

Except throwing cream pies at people would at least mean their vision was impaired.

Most Punchable Character: Thief.

Fortunately because you referred to Lady Christina as 'Thief' throughout, instead of thinking about the episode, I started reminiscing about the video game series of that name, which of course was much better.
Oh, and now I'm thinking of The Doctor's Wife instead. The Doctor's a much better thief than LCdS.

I also found the idea of revisiting 'Midnight' but under slightly different circumstances very interesting too. In 'Midnight' the humans couldn't leave the room, had nothing they could do to help themselves and they had no real agency. Here they could get out and about, they could (and did) figure out a way to get the bus working even though it was plastered in sand and they knew help was coming because they'd heard the Doctor speaking to Malcolm about getting back home and knew that they could as soon as they got the bus moving.

In a way I find that the best part of the episode and would have liked to see more from their POV.

Of course, if it had been more of a straight reprise of Midnight, they probably would've been more likely to turn on Lady Christina than the Doctor, so that's something.

'End of Time' - separately mostly because I've been told I will rage.

Yeah, given some of your comments on Journey's End I was certain you were going to rage at some of it before I even looked at the review. I actually don't mind those bits as much. They worked for me. But eh.

Spoiler: The Bells of St. John

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I never really understood why people would click on those alien symbols on the wifi lists when people tend to be suspect about suspcious things online.

The internet must flow!
Also, people are much more likely to be careful once they're online than when they;re trying to get online. I don't know if it's possible to have a virus or anything that'd get onto your computer just by you connecting to a wireless network without having to go to any particular website/click any particular link.whatever, so...

Thought: this episode involves the Great Intelligence. This woman is about fifty(ish). The last time the Great Intelligence was involved in Doctor Who (aside from 'The Snowmen') was in 'Web' unless it appeared in the meantime. So when whatever happened in 'Web' happened what remained of the Great Intelligence ended up in that woman.

Ooh. Hmm. Yeah, that would make a certain amount of sense, though I don't know if it was intentional on Moffat's part.

Who, coincidentally reminds me of Cassandra/Madam Hooch.

She is in a similar sort of mould/style/whatever. Also I was sure I knew Celia Imrie from something other than St. Trinian's, but I didn't spot anything else I recognised in her filmography.

Yeah yeah, we spend so much time online we practically are online permanently and the internet tells us what to do.

It's certainly a point which resonates fairly strongly with people like us...

Now, if the aliens are in the wifi how did they get on the plane? How long does a wifi membrane thing last in people's minds? Because I think the implication is that they have to be connected to the wifi in some fashion, and you're not allowed to use the internet on the plane are you? Bleh.

Um, I think you are during most of the flight, just not during take-off and landing? Maybe? It's been years since I was on a plane, I'm not sure if wifi was even a thing at the time.

See, he guessed that MH would like to gloat so he gambled on that.

He tends to bet on villains gloating a lot, and it rarely fails him.

Okay, when the Doctor said "Because I'm going to motivate you," I actually anticipated it as 'I'm going to motorboat you' or 'I'm going to masturbate you'. Don't look at me like that.

I'm looking at you like that.

A fun romp. The science was questionable at best, but the plot was lively, moved at a fast paced, had enough twists to satisfy, and most importantly there was a lot of energy in it so I didn't really mind.

This is a large proportion of Nu Who in a nutshell.

Spoiler: Waters of Mars

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*Waters of Mars is now David Bowie*

I really shouldn't be surprised, but I am very amused.

D: "One thing they never said: was it worth it? [... A] ll of it. Because they say you sacrificed everything. Devoted your whole life to get here."

Z: "It's been chaos back home. Forty long years. The climate, the ozone, the oil apocalypse. We almost reached extinction. Then to fly above that, to stand on a world with no smoke, where the only straight line is the sunlight? Yes. It's worth it." GREEN MESSAGE! SUBTLE!

D: "Ah. That's the Adelaide Brooke I always wanted to meet. The woman with starlight in her soul." And if that's not a lovely sentiment I don't know what is. And if everyone knows this, all she sacrificed, and then she and her crew die in a 'tragic accident' which wasn't so accidental . . . well, you know what people can do when they have martyrs for a cause.

It's always nice to hear the inspiring speeches about how space travel and exploration is totally worth it. Because it can't be denied that in most relevant media (and probably in real life when we get that far), it requires a lot of sacrifices to be made.

D: "Water is patient, Adelaide. Water just waits. It wears down the clifftops, the mountains, the whole of the world. Water always wins. Come on."

Shame that got kind of spoiled later in the episode by the water going "Nah, don't need to be patient, we have evil water superpowers now!" A really patient and quite slow but inexorable and unstoppable enemy would've made an interesting change, and possibly fit better with some of the other elements of the episode. Though YMMV, and it didn't bother me that much (Also I'm still not sure if I've watched this more than once. I should rewatch this one)

It's been twenty straight minutes of futility and disaster and ten minutes of me struggling to hold back intermittent bouts of tears. RTD when the Hell did you get this good? Your last four episodes were crap!

Because he's not doing massive CGI spectacle! This is a point I expect to be revisiting later in this post - the irony with both Nu Who showrunners is that a lot of their issues can be summed up by or attributed to them going overboard with the spectacle and the CGI, when if they stuck to just writing good characters (Which has always be Who's strong point, dating back to when they didn't have a big enough budget for the spectacle), they'd be much better off, because they're good at that.

And just on an emotional level the sinking feeling when the Doctor decides that he'll force things because he controls Time now. Even the greatest hero has the potential to be a great and terrible villain.

Yeah, but that's interesting! It's an arc. And the kind of arc you can only do when you're building towards a regeneration because obviously you can't really maintain it for too long because then you're changing the whole show.
If RTD had put a bit more into that for the other specials they could've been a lot better. Especially if he'd actually carried some of it over into End of Time instead of just dropping it instantly. Seeing the Doctor becoming a more potentially villainous Time Lord before being brought back to himself by the appearance of the actual villainous Time Lords... would've been much more interesting than a lot of what actually happened.

Thanks... so anyone catch the Adventures in Space from Thursday?

It's the one big anniversary thing I haven't watched, I think. iPlayer is open in another tab, but I;m writing this post first, which is taking a while.

Back to Curly.

Spoiler: The End of Time Part 1

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Hey? Question: if he reversed everything the Master died (knock knock knock knock) how did Mrs. Master remember and why is she in prison?

Everyone who was on the Valiant remembered. As to why she's in prison... not sure. Was anyone on the Valiant with enough authority to sort that? Or maybe she's in prison for murdering her husband, which happened after the reverse.

Also, the Master's hearing "The drums. The neverending drums!" Can he hear the score? And how did Mrs. Master know he would come back? And how did she make a Potion of Death? And when did Doctor Who become a fantasy film?

All good questions. Also it was never explained why she suddenly changed sides.

And now Time Lords can smell each other? In a dump. What.

Well, they said back in S3 or earlier that Time Lords could sense each other. I figured smell was not being talked about literally here.

D: "I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then, even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away, and I'm dead." Nope. Nope. Nope nope nope. Time to find my new comfort food and rage quietly. This is wrong. People loved Tennant when he was the Doctor - his rabid fans call him the greatest Doctor ever - and this sort of writing is only going to make people hate the next Doctor! And guess what? They did because he wasn't David Tennant and because you, or rather RTD, said this about the Doctor and regeneration!

I have seen clips of all of the Doctor's regenerating up to the point Nine became Ten - this was way before I ever decided to do this as blindly as possible so it's not cheating - and none of them ever felt this way! NONE OF THEM! Granted, mostly because they were unconscious. But mostly because regeneration is a normal process that Romana did on a whim because she wanted to look different (also because of Backstage Issues) with the exception of Two whose regeneration was forced upon him rather than it being natural. Three said "While there's life theres . . ." ; Four was basically excited and welcomed the regeneration; Five chose to regenerate rather than permadie; Seven seemed fine with regenerating and Nine was another happy one who went out with the biggest smile we'd ever seen on his face!

And here's Ten acting as if he'd be dying when he regenerated instead of acting like literally every other Time Lord I've ever seen regenerate (including his past regenerations) and simply accepting it as a natural part of their life (again, excepting Two) to be exploited and even welcomed.

This scene is responsible for people hating Matt Smith because he's not Tennant! I don't particularly like Tennant as the Doctor, but that's because he doesn't feel like the Doctor to me, not because he's not Troughton or Smith. Oh my God! No wonder people said I'd hate this episode.

Look at RTD's smug, self-serving self-love of his great triumph. He's on his way out so before he goes his swan song is to make everything about the show feel wrong if the RTD-era stuff isn't there. No Rose, no Tennant, no RTD, BURN THE WITCH!

Mm. I dunno. I didn't see it like that. As to differing attitudes to regeneration, well, that's the thing. The Doctors are different, and so they do have differing attitudes to regeneration. This one I feel is actually somewhat characteristic of Ten. Even his hardcore fans would be hard-pushed to argue he's not a bit selfish.
I mean, maybe there could be other ways to get across similar ideas without the potential bad points, but, *shrug*.

Now the Master and the Doctor have confronted each other in an abandoned warehouse. Why can the Master Palpatine people? How did it miss the Doctor? Why is the Master aiming to miss?

Given that it's apparently his own life force he's burning up for the lightning, why does it have no ill effects on him?

M: "We used to run across those fields all day, calling up at the sky. Look at us now." So. Gay. So. So. So gay. Because it sounds suspect on its own, but I remember the season three finale. (Also the Master is orgasming over food and the editing is very . . . schizophrenic) And now the Doctor is saying "What if I ask you for help?" And their faces throughout all this.

It's a very twisted connection (and love) they share. And yes, they knock four times because it's the beat of the Time Lord's hearts. And now they're touching foreheads and cradling each other's faces.

Ha. I was trying to think of homoeroticism in this special given someone's comment after these reviews (I read through the thread and just quoted your reviews without reading them in advance because I was sure I'd have something to say), but I forgot this bit.

This nonsense. Time Lords regenerate, they don't die. Well, they do, but you know. Also, Wilf still has a gun.

I took the implication that if Wilf hadn't intervened, maybe the Doctor would've permadied. Not sure what precise difference Wilf was supposed to have made.

Some time between season four's end and now Torchwood fell.

Actually I think they're talking specifically about Torchwood One, which was Canary Wharf, and of course that fell at the end of S2. The Torchwood Jack runs is Torchwood Three, in Cardiff, with far less resources.

And now the Master's in the Gate and turning every human on Earth into the Master.

Yeah. That was a thing. One more too-big RTD setup that he couldn't resolve properly. Also another "works because X is clever." 'Cause healing according to a template, sure, that could maybe work, it's sci-fi, there's technobabble. But changing a machine which heals according to a template into a machine which changes people's species, without actually altering the machine itself, only the software? And then not just changing them to be a different species, but imprinting them with the exact traits and mind of a specific individual? I don't buy it. That feels to me like it would require more than a few quick software alterations.

Spoiler: The End of Time Part 2

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Question: the Master is the Master. Why are the . . . former humans now serving the Master when they are the Master? And that shot of the Chinese army of Master's is terrible!

Well, on the one hand it's all for the common good of all of them because they're all the same person. On the other hand it would've been amusing to see the Master arguing with himself because all of him wanted to be in charge.

Welp. My gay-o-meter just broke. And I'd gotten it reinforced after the fiasco with season three finale. The only way this could be more canon is if they shared a passion fuelled kiss before proceeding into love-and/or-hatesex right there and then on the bondage chair.

I think I need to rewatch this special just for these scenes, because I only vaguely remember them, and again, last time I watched them I had a much less dirty mind.

And the reason the Doctor won't shoot the Master is because killing is what got the Master started on his path. Don't make me start about whether or not you've killed or not, because you have. That you fel guilt is what makes you different from the Master. D: "I've taken lives. I got worse. I got clever. Manipulated people into taking their own. Sometimes I think a Time Lord lives too long. I can't. I just can't."

W: "hat, they go back to being human? They're alive, and human. Then don't you dare, sir. Don't you dare put him before them. Now you take this. That's an order, Doctor. Take the gun. You take the gun and save your life. And please don't die. You're the most wonderful man and I don't want you to die." And this is heartwarming and sad.

D: "NEver." DON'T YOU DARE START. YOU HAVE AND WILL!

I kind of liked that, because it makes a certain amount of sense. It's not a matter of him not taking lives, because he does, when he has to. But he's never a warrior, never a soldier, he never carries a real weapon. He goes into battles armed with a screwdriver and his wits and that's a big partof how after all the death he's seen and caused he can still call himself the Doctor. It's symbolic more than anything else.

And the Master gloats about being awesome and how he's going to turn all Time Lords into him. But the PoR's power glove is 'so bad' that he literally undoes the Master's handiwork with a single movement.

Yep. At the end of his run on the show, RTD has reached the point of literally handwaving away the problems he doesn't have proper resolutions for.

Which to kill, which to kill.

That section annoyed me, tbh. It just seemed pointlessly melodramatic when in the end he was just going to shoot the diamond. It might have worked for me if he'd come up pointing the gun at Rassilon, then switched to the Master, then had the "get out of the way." But it didn't seem to me like he'd really have to spend that much time realising he could just shoot the diamond instead of a person.

And the world is saved. Happy ending!With twenty minutes to go the Doctor is still alive. So how do you die? YEah, you're crying with happiness and all, but you're still going to die somehow.

tat tat tat tat

IIRC, doesn't the music pretty much stop for a bit there as well, so we have complete silence (or nearly) before the knocking? I remember it being really effective.

And I loved that as a why for Ten to go out. After all the bombast, all the grandstanding, a certain amount of selfishness, possible delusions of godhood, he's still the Doctor and he will give his life (one of his lives at any rate) to save one old man.

And Mickey and Martha got married! Talk about pairing the (token black) spares.

I raged a bit at that. Especially since Martha was already engaged the last time we saw her.

Yeah yea, the Doctor saves their lives and I don't care. This is stupid and I swear if all fifteen minutes are self-indulgent pity partying on the Doctor's behalf I am graduating him up to punch in the face oh my God what is this!

See, again, I felt this was rather characteristic of Ten. However, it dragged on too long for my liking. I would've much preferred it if most of these little scenes had been significantly abbreviated, primarily leaving out most bits of the companions actually noticing the Doctor. He's doing it for himself, not for them, he should just come see, maybe save the life, and be gone like a ghost that makes TARDIS noises.

W: "Who was that woman [in white]?" No answer.

Apparently RTD said somewhere she was supposed to be the Doctor's mother, but since it was never stated onscreen it's not canon and that's stupid so I ignore it. I like to think it's future-Donna, having found a way to safely unlock her Time Lord side again. Susan is also a valid possibility.

Spoiler: The Name of the Doctor

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And neither Strax or Clara knew River was a woman.

Well, Strax doesn't seem to understand gender in general. It confuses him.

J: "Someone's broken in, Someone's with us. I can hear them. Sory ma'am. So sorry. So sorry. I think I've been murdered." NO! Jenny isn't allowed to die. She's married to Mma Vastra.

But it was so chilling and so good. But yes.

World building: on battlefield graveyards the bigger the tomb, the higher the rank. Oh no. The grave is the TARDIS. And it's both very big and very literal D: "When a TARDIS is dying, sometimes the dimension dams start breaking down. They used to call it a size leak. All the bigger on the inside starts leaking to the outside. It grows. When I say that's the TARDIS, I don't mean it looks like the TaRDIS, I mean it actually is the TARDIS. My TARDIS from the future. What else would they bury me in?"

See, this, like the last bit I quoted, just brings me back to where I'm uncertain about this episode. Because I remember it being a bit lacklustre, but then when I stop to think about it properly I remember bits like this and they're so good.

Clara nearly got caught, but she didn't. Except maybe something did happen because she's dizzy and feeling like she knows everything. C: "Have we, have we done this before? We have. We have done this before. Climbing through a wrecked TARDIS." And more memories. Is this a thing I've not seen? And how does she remember these?

Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS , surprisingly enough, is the episode which involves climbing through a wrecked TARDIS. I can't actually remember what she's remembering in this scene though and in any case Curlers.

and Strax is persistent in assuming he's winning when he's dying.

Strax is a bit like the Monty Python Black Knight, come to think of it.

What has the Doctor ever done to the Great Intelligence to make him want that? To completely destroy the Doctor's timleine.

That's... one of the issues with this episode. The GI makes it sound like the Doctor's beaten him hundreds of times to build up this grudge, as opposed, to... three or four?
This would be one reason why I feel like this episode is pretty good in and of itself (though it still has some definite flaws), but works less well in context because it still feels like there are bits of said context missing.

I'd like a finale where all of time and space wasn't at risk for once. Where the stars didn't go out. Just once.

Yeah. That would be one of the definite flaws.

The one stand-in is very good. I think they just took actual footage and were very careful with it.

I actually didn't like that though. Because I don't really think the GI went back and tried to make the Doctor take a different TARDIS. Also because it spoils the beauty of their first meeting, which should be just the two of them and not require any outside input, especially given the description in The Doctor's Wife. Moffat's messing with my Gaiman here, and that I can't abide.

But she's not! Is she? I mean, yes, she is. But isn't she alive? I mean, he married her at the end of season six so she's alive? What?

Well, yes, somewhere in time she's alive, but this is her when she's in the Library computer, at which point she's dead. Though given the nature of this meeting, this may also be the last time the Doctor sees her (And that we do as well, therefore).

D: "I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor. Look, my name, my real name, that is not the point. The name I chose is the Doctor. The name you choose, it's like, it's like a promise you make. He's the one who broke the promise."

And that I liked, as a way of living up to the episode title without actually revealing the Doctor's real name. Well, that and the last line, but I can't be bothered to quote the whole exchange.

Spoiler: Night of the Doctor

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Crashing ship. A woman is sending for a Mayday and doesn't want a robot doctor -

PAUL MCGANN! YES!

And he's right - he's not the Doctor I was expecting. But I was so pleased it was him.

D: "Four minutes. That's ages. What if I get bored?"

That does seem to be a common idea Moffat likes to bring back with whichever Doctor he's writing - the ability to do lots of activities in a short space of time and get bored without them. Obviously most commonly with Eleven, but this did seem very reminiscent of Eleven's similar moments. Though I loved "Bring me knitting."

Best Actor: Paul McGann deserves more praise as the Doctor. I know he's widely considered one of the best audio Doctors, but I wish more people knew of his work.

Yeah, that minisode by itself convinced me to move onto some audio adventures once I finally finish going through Classic Who. Also I'd love it if we could get Eight back in the future for some other multi-Doctor special. Maybe not be likely, since the 50^th is gone and by the next big milestone he will have aged, but I can hope.

That looks rather low-tech for such an advanced thing.

So does the TARDIS.

So, just popping in here because this is a wonderful 50th Anniversary tribute, a short little animated clip that gave a few emotions at the very end. Spoilers for Night of the Doctor, very minorly.

That was beautiful.

IT'S THE FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL!
IT'S MULTI-DOCTOR!
IT'S ABOUT THE TIME WAR!
IT'S ABOUT THE DOCTOR'S PAST
LET'S GO!

Spoiler: Day of the Doctor

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Also because I forgot to put this in the minisode one: Night of the Doctor - his lowest moment/also night = death metaphor; Day of the Doctor - redemption/rebirth/highest moment?

Yeah, sounds about right actually. I'd mark this as the final nail in the coffin of River's claim that AGMGtW was him rising higher and falling further than ever before...

One's credits. And there's a policeman at foreman's yard! A modern policeman too. And Coal hill school. Clara's a teacher at Coal hill school!

I was so happy at the callbacks.

HAHAH That effect looks so fake. The claw with the toy TARDIS. LOOK AT IT.

...there's now a part of me wondering if they put in a special effect that looked fake deliberately as a callback to Classic Who effects. Probably not, though they could always claim they did if people criticise it.

What is War shooting onto the - NO MORE.

He may have become a warrior, but he still hasn't lost his flair for the dramatic.

Even Moffat. But it's . . . like he mixed Sexy with Rose.

It is very much like that. I was rather pleased that it turned out to not actually be Rose.

I think . . . I like Moffatt's Rose. Mostly because it's not Rose, and she sounds like she's been smoking forty a day for thirty years. And she wasn't expecting that fez.

And, as you have pointed out before, Billie Piper is actually a pretty good actress. The problem was with the writing and the character of Rose. Since this is a different writer and a very different (and much more interesting) character, it's actually really good. She's getting a chance to flex those acting muscles.

10: "And: ding! [...] It's a machine that goes ding" when it's around shapeshifters.

Moffat loves giving Ten weird gadgets. He hasn't done that with Eleven to my recollection, but the spiel about the machine that goes ding was very much like the spiel about his timey-wimey detector in Blink.

Also the Doctor's making a Badass Boast to a bunny.

YES.
I really want to rewatch the special for all these bits.

W: "You're me? Both of you? Even that one? Am I having a mid-life crisis?" Well, kind of.

I kind of have to wonder if Moffat has ever read The Ten Doctors or if that's entirely coincidental rather than being a reference.

And 10's assuming the QEI he's talking to is the fake. And yeah, it was the real Elizabeth.

It was obvious as soon as Ten started doing the clever and slightly insulting speech.

Also round things.

I love the round things.

They're going into the future via painting. AND THAT'S WHY THE GUY GOT A PHONE CALL! BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED BACK WHEN THE SCENE FIRST HAPPENED. AND THEY'RE ALREADY IN THE BLACK ARCHIVE.

I loved that, because you could see that phonecall was probably going to be significant, and I spotted that the painting was in the Black Archive when they arrived there and I didn't know why. Especially after going through your reviews of RTD's last couple of finales it's really refreshing to note how everything in DotD was actually established and set up in advance. No handwaves that I recall.

Also hello Cyberman head, picture of Susan and a chair I vaguely recognise from somewhere.

I liked the board with all the pictures of past companions, even if we couldn't see it properly. It occurred to me at that point that including UNIT was one of the best ideas for making a decent anniversary special - it allows you to fit in so many little callbacks and nods to the classic series because of course they have records.

Two TARDISes side by side. Because they won't let War shoulder the blame alone?

I loved that moment. Ten and Eleven doing for War what Donna did for Ten in Pompeii.

"Never cruel or a coward. Never give up, never give in."

At this point, one could probably fill several pages with all the neat ways people have summed up the Doctor and how he operates, but I really don't mind getting more.

And 11 can go looking for Gallifrey if he wants to! "If I was you - If I was you of course [...] or perhaps it doesn't matter either way. Who know? Who. Know?"

*snip*

11: Clara sometimes asks me if I dream. 'Course I dream I tell her. Everybody dreams [...] The same thing everyone dreams about; I dream of where I'm going. [...] I have a new destination. My journey is the same as everyone's. [...] At least I know where I'm going. Where I've always been going. Home. The long way around."

I remember reading somewhere before the special came out Moffat (and possibly others) saying how DotD was really going to change the shape of the show for the years to come and I was really worried about that. But this was obviously what they meant and it works.

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Nice cameo at the end. I was actually expecting Capaldi but a great surprise.

Same here.

Did anyone catch that the asthmatic girl is

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Clara's sister? "You're jealous of your prettier sister." And she's named Osgood!

I'm not sure where you got that from. In fact I'm pretty sure you're wrong, given that

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I'm pretty sure at the start of the episode she refers to Kate Stewart as "Mum".

EDIT: I just realised she was probably saying "Ma'am."
However, there's still no indication that she's Clara's sister, and in fact Osgood was apparently the surname of a Classic UNIT person, so...

And now we know why Queen Liz was a bit annoyed with the Doctor at the end of the Shakespeare code.

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Actually we kind of don't. They parted on fairly amicable terms there.

Well, that was... not bad? A bit slow, really, for my tastes. Not actually all that much going on for the first half or so of it. But a few funny bits. And as soon as the three Doctors were together, it got quite good.

I liked that it was a bit slow. It felt a bit more like the pacing of the Classic series, and one of the general issues Nu Who has sometimes is always that the pacing can get too frenetic.

but except for

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not telling us how the Doctor and Clara got out of his timestream

, they aren't really important IMO.

That one isn't really important either.

I think we can put End of Time and Day of the Doctor's hanging issues together in a couple of ways:

*snip*

1) Oops! - Moffat's deficiencies with arcs strikes again. Go on try and connect the Pandorica and River Song events.

I'm not entirely clear on what you think doesn't work with those.
I mean, I'm not saying Moffat doesn't have deficiencies with arcs, but connecting Pandorica/River Song doesn't spring to mind as one of them.

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I have a suspicion that Tom Baker doing the cameo is his way of apologizing to the fans for not being in the 20th anniversary special.

Apology accepted.

I also had that thought.

You know if you have to have a secret vault filled with weapons so dangerous you have to nuke it to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, why put it in London??

Chuck it underneath Salisbury Plain or something. Or at least Milton Keynes, no one would miss it if it's gone.

Hah.
(Disclaimer: I have never actually been to Milton Keynes. It could be a lovely place for all I know, despite seeming to be like a national in-joke)

Something's just occurred to me. A few people are saying that the events of the special are a retcon of what was seen in "The End of Time", or that the show isn't following its own arc. However, what they talked about in "The End of Time" (Gallifrey being locked away) was itself a retcon--in the first season Nu Who episode "Dalek", the following exchange happens (spoilered for people who might not have seen the special):

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The Doctor: Well, you're never going to get any. Not ever.

Dalek: I DEMAND ORDERS!

The Doctor: Well they're never gonna *come*! Your race is dead! You all burned, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race, wiped out in one second.

Dalek: You lie!

The Doctor: I watched it happen. I *made* it happen!

Dalek: You destroyed us?

The Doctor: I had no other choice.

Dalek: And what of the Time Lords?

The Doctor: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

That description of events matches what we saw in the special far more closely than "The End of Time", so if anything, this is Moffat reverting a retcon that RTD introduced, not adding one of his own.

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No. Gallifrey being locked away was in addition to it being destroyed. It's the time lock over the Time War (Almost typo'd that to Tie War, a much less significant conflict which Eleven obviously fought in ). In End of Time, they were trying to get Gallifrey out of the time lock keeping it locked away before the Doctor used the Moment to kill them all.

Is it weird to anyone else that everything EXCEPT the anniversary special they did seemed like a good celebration (Night, FISH Doctor, Time and Space) while the "special" felt like an over-bloated episode of a normal season of the show?

It... kind of did feel like a regular episode, I'll grant you, though I wouldn't say it felt 'bloated', and it was like a regular episode with three Doctors and masses of nods to the classic series and a load of ongoing plot significance.
Oh, and it was really good, let's not forget that.

Crunk, we disagree from time to time, but you're alright.

Aw...

You're not so bad, yourself.

Thanks...

The blushing faces in this exchange mean I am now shipping you two together, just FYI.

Well I'm glad to be here, you all seem very welcoming.

Ah, you say that now, you may change your tune as soon as you voice a contentious opinion. We have been known to have some pretty big arguments in these threads (Doctor Who is SRS BSNS).

The special did seem like an overlarge episode, but I think it was a good celebration because it really threw all the key elements of Doctor Who into a single 75 minute episode. I want to list some of the key elements I noticed; they're in spoiler tags because some of them may hint at how the plot goes.

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It had a mysterious oracle, bizarre aliens, time travel(including time travel trickery), a hero with many personalities and faces but one soul, historical figures behaving badly, weighty moral quandaries, fantastical locations, implausible but intriguing technology(and technobabble), small people making big decisions, the triumph of cleverness and compassion over anger and violence, and most of all, fun. Weird, silly, goofy fun.

If you want to explain to somebody what the show is all about, showing them this would be a good start. It may not be the best episode, but it absolutely revels in being Doctor Who.

Yeah, I would agree with all of that.

Overall, I think my favorite thing from the special was the exasperated comments from the John Hurt Doctor at the silly antics of his future selves.

One of the few bits which disappointed me was when he started warming up to his future selves and a couple of times talked a bit more like them, where I would've preferred him to stick to his own, slightly different, idiom.

My one other thought is that given how the story went, it would've been really interesting to see how it would've gone if they'd managed to get Christopher Eccleston in for it. I've got to say, there are bits where I have some idea of how he might react and I could see it potentially throwing a wrench in the works in some respects. But he certainly would've added another interesting perspectve on things.

OK, done now. So let's see how many people have posted while I was typing all this out...
Edit: Not as many as I expected. I'm a little disappointed. Though I suppose this does mean I can leave the thread and go watch An Adventure in Time and Space.

[Pex]

I have a question, during the epic climax when

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you see all the thirteen doctors working together to vanish Gallifrey, and you hear them calling out to each other, did they get back the original actors to record a few lines? I thought I heard Eight, and definitely Seven talking about the coordinates. It'd be nice to know they're still part of the Anniversary in some way.

It was all stock footage.

[factotum]

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Actually we kind of don't. They parted on fairly amicable terms there.

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No. Gallifrey being locked away was in addition to it being destroyed. It's the time lock over the Time War (Almost typo'd that to Tie War, a much less significant conflict which Eleven obviously fought in ). In End of Time, they were trying to get Gallifrey out of the time lock keeping it locked away before the Doctor used the Moment to kill them all.

I disagree on the first point:

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I'm pretty sure that however "amicable" their parting was, Queen Elizabeth's assumption would be that the man she just married would return sometime? As far as we know, he left her after their 1562 wedding and she didn't see him again until 37 years later in "The Shakespeare Code". Kind of think not seeing your husband for 37 years would be grounds to be a bit peeved with him when he finally shows up again, especially as he has a younger bit of crumpet in tow at the time!

My response to your response to my point:

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That just reinforces my point that the events of this episode are in no way a retcon, then. The only difference between the timeline before and the timeline now is that Gallifrey is hidden away in a moment of time rather than being destroyed.

[Thufir]

I disagree on the first point:

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I'm pretty sure that however "amicable" their parting was, Queen Elizabeth's assumption would be that the man she just married would return sometime? As far as we know, he left her after their 1562 wedding and she didn't see him again until 37 years later in "The Shakespeare Code". Kind of think not seeing your husband for 37 years would be grounds to be a bit peeved with him when he finally shows up again, especially as he has a younger bit of crumpet in tow at the time!

A bit peeved, yes, but in The Shakespeare Code IIRC she called him "My sworn enemy." Seems like that might have needed a bit more provocation.

Of course, I'm pretty sure I remember Eleven in Wedding of River Song saying something about her waiting in a clearing to run away with him (With the obvious implication that he stood her up), so that may well have been a subsequent encounter leading to the swearing of enemies.

[Codyage]

Spoiler: 50th Anniversary/Five(ish) Doctors Questions.

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1. Did we get an explanation/are supposed to know, on why Clara was in the Black Archives the first time? Because they said she had all ready been there.

2. Were the previous doctors actually underneath the statue tarps in the 50th?

[SuperPanda]

A really beautiful little bit that I'd completely missed at first:


In the start of the episode, QEI names the doctor curator of the undergallery.

And then.

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When 11 is talking about how he could retire and become the "great curator" and how he'd be brilliant at being a curator... it really sets up the context for Baker's cameo nicely.

"Of course if I was you, but then maybe I was, or maybe you were me, or maybe it doesn't really matter... after all who knows. Who. Noes. eh?"

I'll admit I've not yet seen any serials with 4's doctor, but now I really need to.

Also, could the forum suggest great / iconic / good starter serials for each of the 7 doctors I'm not too familiar with.

I've seen part of Trial of a Timelord and didn't love or hate 6's doctor. I've seen most of The Unearthly Child and rather enjoyed 1. I know most of 2 and 3's episodes were lost... but I'm not sure where to start with 4, 5, a good serial for 6, and 7.

[Friv]

Spoiler: 50th Anniversary/Five(ish) Doctors Questions.

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1. Did we get an explanation/are supposed to know, on why Clara was in the Black Archives the first time? Because they said she had all ready been there.

Spoiler: 50th Anniversary/Five(ish) Doctors Questions.

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Apparently UNIT interviews the Doctor's companions whenever possible, to make sure that they aren't dangerous people.

2. Were the previous doctors actually underneath the statue tarps in the 50th?

Don't know for sure, but I suspect no. It would be a lot of discomfort for the sake of an unverifiable joke. (Also, the statues looked taller than that.)
[/QUOTE]

[Thufir]

Also, could the forum suggest great / iconic / good starter serials for each of the 7 doctors I'm not too familiar with.

For Two, I'd recommend Tomb of the Cybermen as a good one to start with. It's also quite iconic, and hapens to be the earliest of his serials that's still completely intact.

The only serial of Seven I've seen is Remembrance of the Daleks, but it was a very good one, so I'd definitely recommend it.

[turkishproverb]

A really beautiful little bit that I'd completely missed at first:


In the start of the episode, QEI names the doctor curator of the undergallery.

And then.

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When 11 is talking about how he could retire and become the "great curator" and how he'd be brilliant at being a curator... it really sets up the context for Baker's cameo nicely.

"Of course if I was you, but then maybe I was, or maybe you were me, or maybe it doesn't really matter... after all who knows. Who. Noes. eh?"

I'll admit I've not yet seen any serials with 4's doctor, but now I really need to.

Also, could the forum suggest great / iconic / good starter serials for each of the 7 doctors I'm not too familiar with.

I've seen part of Trial of a Timelord and didn't love or hate 6's doctor. I've seen most of The Unearthly Child and rather enjoyed 1. I know most of 2 and 3's episodes were lost... but I'm not sure where to start with 4, 5, a good serial for 6, and 7.

1 The Azteks
2 Tomb of the Cybermen/The Enemy of the World
3 The Silurians/The Sea Devils/The Three Doctors
4 Genesis of the Daleks/Talons of Weng Chiang (don't mind the erm...odd casting)
5 Caves of Androzani/ Spare Parts (audio)
6 Revelation of the Daleks/ Jubilee (audio)
7 Remembrence of the Daleks/ Survival
8 The Chimes of Midnight (audio)/ SHada (cartoon)
9 Dalek/Fathers Day
10 Blink
11 The Doctor's Wife

[CurlyKitGirl]

Still think that Two/Jamie have as much going on as Doctor/Master, Curly?

Yes, and probably more.
While Doctor/Master is most certainly more overt than Two/Jamie, all the stuff with Doctor/Master carries a twisted, almost unsure edge to it that shows that, no matter how much they may wish otherwise, any relationship of theirs will self-destruct extremely messily. It's is more overtly sexual - I say this not having seen Classic Doctor/Master - and while there is appreciation of each others minds and personality, it's physical without the care and respect one would want in an actual relationship.
Two/Jamie is just pure respect and trust. Bone deep trust. These two act like they've known each other all their lives and while they're most definitely physical it's never done to unsettle or to deliberately play up the sexual angle of things. They touch so casually and often because they like touching each other and it's practically instinctive.

Long story short: while I'll giggle and gape at Doctor/Master chemistry I truly believe Two and Jamie belong together and I will ship them forever because they fit like they've always been together.

I was eagerly awaiting you review of that bit. I honestly never get tired of that bit (I've watched on youtube more times than I can count!)

When in Naruto, they first put the Moon's Eye plan up and everbody laughed, I thought of this and thought "nope, they've not really thought about that one."

Moon's Eye?
And yes, the Master's plan wasn't actually well thought out. And given the Master's currently mostly mad, dying and only had a few minutes to enact the plan I can see him thinking it would work.
The writers? No. Surely they'd have done a little bit of thinking about it. It's billions of the Masters. The Master doesn't do co-operation.

As as a fellow Evil-does, I must tip my helmet to the Master - he really earned his monkier with that one. Priceless!

I think that's mostly why I still sort of like it. It's evil enough that the Master would conceivably do it, with a lot of failsafes put in, but it's also insane enough that skeletal!insane!Simm!Master would do it without thinking.
It's stupid as all get, but it's kind of stylish and still kind of awesome,

I'm going out of a limb here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting some very subtle hints you may not have been 100% approving of the ending...

(Not that I blame you. Even Tennant himself preportedly wanted to change that line.)

[/quote]

Just going to comment on one part:

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Why does it have to be about Matt Smith? Why can't it just be the ending for Ten's story? Acting as if people dislike Smith because of Ten's ending is rather dismissive for those of us who have other issues with Smith. Yes, you can say the other doctors felt differently, but they aren't exactly the same people, that's why we talk about X doctor being like this or Y Doctor being like that.

Going to reply to both Aotrs and Reverent here:
I did not like the ending for several reasons and elaborate more on why I didn't like the ending.
It dragged, thereby ruining the pacing which caused the shock of finding out the Doctor is dying to slow to a crawl. This in turn made me care less about the Doctor dying and just want the episode to end already. That twenty minute epilogue - half a standard episode - made me not care that this was the last time we'd ever see Ten. I couldn't care even though I actually wanted to because, all my problems with Ten aside, when he was the Doctor he really was fantastic.
Because RTD wrote such a stupid and long epilogue he did a disservice to Tennant because that ending was too long, too schmaltzy and too self-serving. It wasn't an epilogue for the tenth Doctor, but an epilogue for RTD. That is insulting.
I bet you that no other Backstage Name ever did such a thing; not the producers, not the writers or script editors, not even Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman! God, when Verity Lambert died she only got a 'Dedicate to' screen, as did Barry Letts, Elisabeth Sladen and Nicholas Courtney.
While we certainly have to thank RTD for bringing back Doctor Who and helping to make it more popular than ever I don't think he deserved twenty minutes of screentime eulogising his era. When other producers/writers left there I bet there was a change in tone and style for sure, but you wouldn't have seen them doing such a thing so blatantly if at all! A pause while Classic aficionados confirm, deny or express mixed feelings about that opinion.
This show is not about Backstage Names no matter how much I geek out about Neil Gaiman or expressing my love or distaste for various writers, directors, producers and so on. This show is about the Doctor (and his Companions) and everyone should be working together to create episodes for the Doctor and about the Doctor in some way. We pick up this man, drop him in an unfamiliar, often dangerous situation, and we get to see a marvellous, brilliant, arrogant, occasionally stupid, distractable madman try to make things better using his wits, a screwdriver, a big blue box and whoever he can talk into aiding him in his madcap adventures.
When a Doctor regenerates that legacy is passed on to the next incarnation of the Doctor and we have the joy of finding out what makes this Doctor work, how he acts, how he's different and how he's similar. A regeneration is bittersweet; we say goodbye to a Doctor we know, and we meet a stranger, and yet he's the same man. As we explore the universe with him we come to know him. It's one of the greatest things about Doctor Who: coming to know and love the same person all over again and see what he would and would not do even in the same situations as other Doctors.
So when RTD wrote that epilogue he was not passing on the torch. He was not letting us anticipate all the new and old things and the Doctor and the TARDIS. He was wallowing in the past and denying us the ability to hope for the future.
I know people who refuse to watch any more Who because to them this episode implied that no one after Tennant could ever be the Doctor. That the Doctor truly died and there would never be another. Because "I don't want to go," and the Doctor's fear of 'dying' meant he would actually be dead rather than just get another life to rediscover himself in new ways and learn so much by experiencing life through a slightly different set of eyes and mindset.
RTD, by writing that line in conjunction with the epilogue actively damaged Matt Smith's chance to prove he was the Doctor by making people refuse to watch his reign. That is bad writing combined with self-congratulation and self-pity. A regeneration is meant to interest and intrigue us, to make us want to carry on watching the show and find out the new and the old.
Note I said "line in conjunction". The line itself, while still personally annoying and even infuriating, was in-character with this Doctor's general attitude from 'Midnight' on when things took a much darker turn for the Doctor personally. In that episode was directly confronted with his mortality and his inability to fight his death probably started off his sincere fear of dying. Every episode from 'Midnight' on was also written or co-written by RTD who would have known by then that he was leaving. "I don't want to go" (at the time) would still be a bit mean-spirited from a meta POV, but it would be in-character as a man who suffered far too much trauma in such a short period of time.
But with the epilogue before it that line takes on a different context. After the Doctor dropped Wilf off at home he should have either regenerated in the TARDIS then (after vworping off somewhere), or we could have cut to Donna's wedding and have Wilf say something about never having seen him since and being so worried for him only for the Doctor to show up in the background and we have the scene we have in canon. That would have kept the pacing fine, and we would have felt more of Wilf's guilt and grief over having accidentally killed the Doctor. Instead we have a gaping hole spanning nearly twenty minutes in which all the tension and worry just fades into annoyance and boredom. The epilogue was too long, too slow and it was shot with such sentimentality and schmaltz that I became more irritated the longer it went on! And I usually have a fairly high tolerance for that sort of thing. 'The End of Time' 2/2 ran a little over the length of a usual episode and then had a twenty minute lull before we even got to see the new Doctor. That was a waste of air time that should have been cut, simple as that. Long story short, Tennant didn't get the send-off he deserved and Eleven didn't get the introduction he deserved, the torch wasn't passed onwards.

Yep, we called it, CarpeGuitarrem.

What exactly did you call? The Rose hate or the general ending hate?

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyup. Perfectly-calibrated epic Curly Bomb. That went exactly as I thought it would. And, I think, for the same reasons I thought it would. That's one of the reasons I hold a small bit of a grudge against RTD--how he set up Eleven that way. It's not about giving Tennant a sendoff, it's about carrying the story onward.

closest[/i] we got was...well...you all know.

Spoiler: Just in case someone hasn't seen it yet, I don't think Curly has

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The Night of the Doctor...but that was a conscious choice to regenerate into something which the Doctor abhorred.

I'm desperately hoping that Eleven doesn't go out that way.

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People keep talking about how his regeneration is going to be "traumatic" and such, and that worries me. I really hope Moffat isn't going to try and pull something like that.

On the flip side, he'll still be writing and working with Capaldi. So I'm hoping that this means he'll regenerate under incredibly traumatic circumstances that shape him into something very dark and dangerous. i.e. Capaldi.

With regards to the first spoiler, I've seen it now, and I agree. He didn't want to, but he did because he believed it was necessary, even a duty that needed to be carried out. For the good of the universe.
As for the second, well, now we know where the Christmas special is set I think we can agree that "traumatic" means what you're hoping it means. Fears allayed?


So. For some reason I feel a bit bad for only doing fourteen episodes and a minisode of the twenty or so I originally wanted to give you as a big celebration/endurance test. So let's do more! After all, I really started this marathon in the early hours of Tuesday morning, meaning I have a day and an evening to see how many I can reasonably do in a week. Plus I'm thinking of having a look at The Fish Doctors and An Adventure in Time and Space if nothing else so I can bulk up my Fiftieth Anniversary section. (Also I want to finish Eleven's reign and I only have a month)
Should I? Or no?

[turkishproverb]

So. For some reason I feel a bit bad for only doing fourteen episodes and a minisode of the twenty or so I originally wanted to give you as a big celebration/endurance test. So let's do more! After all, I really started this marathon in the early hours of Tuesday morning, meaning I have a day and an evening to see how many I can reasonably do in a week. Plus I'm thinking of having a look at The Fish Doctors and An Adventure in Time and Space if nothing else so I can bulk up my Fiftieth Anniversary section. (Also I want to finish Eleven's reign and I only have a month)
Should I? Or no?

Fish doctors and Adventure are better than the actual special.

[CurlyKitGirl]

A really beautiful little bit that I'd completely missed at first:


In the start of the episode, QEI names the doctor curator of the undergallery.

And then.

Spoiler

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When 11 is talking about how he could retire and become the "great curator" and how he'd be brilliant at being a curator... it really sets up the context for Baker's cameo nicely.

"Of course if I was you, but then maybe I was, or maybe you were me, or maybe it doesn't really matter... after all who knows. Who. Noes. eh?"

I'll admit I've not yet seen any serials with 4's doctor, but now I really need to.

I noticed that as well! Rather, I noticed it some time last night after the special. And you really should see some Classic serials.

Also, could the forum suggest great / iconic / good starter serials for each of the 7 doctors I'm not too familiar with.

I've seen part of Trial of a Timelord and didn't love or hate 6's doctor. I've seen most of The Unearthly Child and rather enjoyed 1. I know most of 2 and 3's episodes were lost... but I'm not sure where to start with 4, 5, a good serial for 6, and 7.

Don't you mean "I know most of 1 and 2's episodes were lost"? All of Three's episodes exist, though some only in black and white. As for serial suggestion:

1.: Like you I've only seen 'An Unearthly Child', but I've been eyeing up some First Doctor stories based on amazon product information and what my mum said. Also assuming that you'd rather see whole serials or one's with only one episode missing. I'd suggest 'The Aztecs' or 'The Time Meddler' (both historical) or 'The Daleks' or 'The Chase'. All of these serials are complete. But if you're willing to wait a while 'The Tenth Planet' and 'The Reign of Terror' are both confirmed to be released with animation for the missing episodes.

2.: My first Second Doctor story was 'The Invasion'. It is brillaint all around, introduces UNIT and is an amazing Cyberman story where the villain is completely human. I don't know if you read my reviews of 'The Invasion', but if you have you know how much I love it. It's an amazing introduction to both Two and Jamie with a great villain and is, from what I gathered later, considered one of the best Cyberman stories.
However, most of Two's stuff was badly affected by the wipes, so mostly complete stories are rare. On principle I want to suggest 'The Web of Fear' which is only missing ep. 3 because I've really liked what I've seen so far; there's also a chance the missing episode might be animated in time for the DVD release in February. Perhaps 'The War Games' too but it is his final serial, so while it introduces some important things and is meant to be very good. It's also four hours long.

3.: Alas, he is now the only Doctor (outside of Capaldi) I have never experienced in some form. That said, 'The Three Doctors' was in his era and is widely considered a very good multi-Doctor story. Also 'Inferno' based entirely off of Friv's reviews.

4. 'Genesis of the Daleks', hands down. It's also the Fourth Doctor's fourth serial so this serial gives a very good introduction to the character. And look, I've seen half of it, I love it; this serial is considered one of the best Who serials ever. Also: Sarah jane Smith. Also: introducing Davros and the actual birth of the Daleks. Plus if you think about it, this is also the first throw that lead to the Time War.
Then, going from reputation alone, anything where Robert Holmes was the writer/script writer and either Philip Hinchcliffe Barry Letts was the producer: 'The Talons of Weng-Chiang', 'The Ark in Space', 'Horror of Fang Rock' and 'Pyramids of Mars' in particular. These all come in Four's first four series. And I know that 'City of Death' is set in Paris and features John Cleese.

5. Another I know very little about, so on principle 'The Five Doctors' because it's a multi-Doctor story (with four Doctors) with dozens of Companions. 'The Caves of Androzani' is his last serial and has been voted so often as the best serial of Classic Who so often it might as well be considered the best. But it's his last serial. I've also heard the names 'Earthshock' and 'Mawdryn Undead' bounced around a lot, though I've steadfastly avoided spoilers seeing as I know that certain relatives have been a little too interested in the gaps in my Who collection and my wishes for more very recently.

6. 'Mindwarp' has BRIAN BLESSED in it, however, it's also part of the 'Trial of a Time Lord' arc, so I don't know how accessible it is on its own. Also I've never seen it, so I'm recommending it based solely on the fact that BRIAN BLESSED is a King in a Doctor Who serial and he makes most things fun.
The only Sixth serial I've seen is 'The Two Doctors' where, while I enjoyed it and found it a good introduction to Six it felt a bit strange.

7. 'Remembrance of the Daleks' hands down. It's an anniversary special in intent and Ace gets to beat up things with baseball bats! I also want to say that I know the basic premise of 'Battlefield': Arthurian mythology meets Doctor Who which sounds like it would be oodles of fun and likely quite cheesy too.

Fish doctors and Adventure are better than the actual special.

In your opinion. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed 'The Day of the Doctor', and if Adventures and FISH are better that will be excellent too!

[SuperPanda]

Alright, so I know I'll need to find a review style if I decide to watch/re-watch episodes and we already have plenty of reviewers with fantastic styles and approaches... so I'll understand if this gets glossed over.

I'm going to try (repeat try) to go through the history of who in order (skipping only episodes I don't have access to because I don't own copies / can't find them online / or something of the sort).

Episode 1 - The Unearthly Child (Season 1, Serial 1, part 1).

Now I thought I'd seen this before, but as I'm rewatching I must have had it on while doing something else. I don't think I ever really watched it.

Reactions while watching

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Opening theme - its amazing how well that score has held up over the years and actually if anything the original is better than the techno-fied bombast of 9-11's reign. It has this haunting and mecurial feel to it that, when combined with the title, would have had me very excited if it was being made right now.

Comming off the 50th I'm retroactively loving the aiversery more for all the nods I'm seeing - the school - the policeman.

The video quality I have is somewhat dark and spotty - parts are hard to make out like the writing where it says foreman's lane. The TARDIS gets introduced, and I was surprised to notice the windows are cracked (like on 11's TARDIS).

Introducing the teachers. They have chemistry

No but seriously, the actors manage to create a natural sense of friendship with just a hint of a mutual desire for there to be more buried under professional restraint. Considering the limitations of the audio equipment at the time and the need to record dialogue in a certain stilted fashion this is rather impressive.

As a teacher myself, The chemistry teacher's description of Susan metering out her knowledge would have bugged me - the sense that the students are just patronizing me - but the dilemma of "whether or not to hand over the keys to the classroom" isn't so bad. You ask a student like that to help reach the students you aren't able to. I do like the banter between them and that's a good start. Also I like that its the history teacher who came up with the plan and is being forward with the science teacher. Given the time period this was written this is a good start to the series.

And introducing susan with a timelord ipod. I think she's the first student to be introduced that actually looks 15. From the banter, does she have a crush on her science teacher ... there was a hint of something in the "I wouldn't expect you to know such things." Likes walking in the dark because it is mysterious... 15 year olds don't really change that much over time do they?

"See you in the morning." "Yes I expect so." Knowing the context of Susan's life already thats actually rather hilarious.

Teacher's in the car... Now we're getting to more interesting things. The musical score doesn't work as well listening to the teacher's talk back and forth. I like that the History teacher feels the need to make this "the right thing" while the science teacher is rather content to do it just out of curiosity. That has a wonderful commentary on the humanities vs the Sciences right there. But my changed to when History said, "Sometimes I just want to trip her up." I know alot of current teaching theories didn't exist back then but even so... that just sounds petty and mean. A teacher should be hoping for their pupils to succeed and go on to greater things than the teacher themself ever did, not hoping to "put them in their place."

I liked the quandries in the science class better, they made more sense.

History has premonitions - and again, in-context that's very amusing.
Science takes things as they come - good contrast, I expect he'll have to revisit that stance by serial end.

The police box is alive... Yes! and no. No.. something vibrating doesn't make it alive, it makes it vibrating... like your car engine does. I know sexy is alive, but still felt the like the wrong word for "Science" to use.

Introducing: The Doctor!

who has a bad cold apparently... I almost want to tell him to use his inhaler.
Aand the Doctor is playing the question game... "Whose line is it anyway" Who. Nose.

"Why have I never seen this before" - subtle Doc. - though thanks to Moffat I'm not worried the robed statue next to him is going to come alive and eat the Science Teacher.

I like that the Doctor is very unhelpful, but he's unhelpful in a playful way. Its a bit more like a cat playing with a mouse than what 9-11 got me used to: a puppy playing "chew on stuff... especially the scenery." This doctor is almost more predatory in his dealing with the teachers so far.

Its the round things! I love the round things. What are the round things? I don't know...

I like the stunned silence and "Close the door susan." The cat is gone and instead he has a poise that puts the Lord in time Lord (and not the religious "Lord" which 10 seemed to be going for or the exasperbated, "Oh lord get that thing off your head" of 11).

The door sound effect could use work though.

And History is not having trouble with bigger on the inside, she's having trouble with the Doctor's choice to decieve her. Science on the other hand is having trouble "Taking things as they come." Well that didn't take long. This is Doctor Who, all attempts at serious science are doomed to fail comedically. In his defense, Science's actor has a great expression at the "this makes no sense, no sense at all!" stage.

Now THAT is the doctor: "I can see by your face you don't understand I knew you wouldn't." And yet at the same time he is trying to explain because he wants Science to understand just as much as Science wants to understand.

The Doctor is one of the Sons of Ether - his magic/tech only works if he gets people to believe it does... this explains sooo much of his technobable and makes me want to learn that system well enough to make this a game story.

I love watching older doctor's snark. Hurt was glorious when he was taking potshots at sand-shoes and other things, and that something Hartnell is very good at too.

Science - You're treating us like children.
Doctor: Am I? The children of my civilization would be insulted.

Susan's plee to the Doctor to let them go + the statue wearing a robe outise + the Cat playing a Mouse analogy... is the show suggesting that the Doctor would kill someone for being curious?

History and Science decide its time to go... aparently they aren't as good at picking up obvious hints like "Please let them go, they aren't a threat to us."

They do get a clue though, and as they start to Panic the Doctor has found something amusing.

Science "I know that movement in the 4th dimension is a scientific dream I don't expect to be solved in a junkyard."

The Doctor Your elegance is almost as great as your ignorance.

Science Will you open the door? *Doctor Laughs* Very well I'll have to risk it myself.

Doctor: Very well, I can't stop you...

Yeah, he's still a cat playing with a mouse.

And with the TARDIS taking off Science has completely lost his footing... I love the symbolism there.

Thoughts after the fact

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The serial has held up very well. The dialogue works very well and I love the inherent symbolism of History and Science having trouble accepting the Doctor. I know they have names and I promise to learn them, but the symbolism of their interactions with each other, the Doctor, and the TARDIS was just wonderful.

History was concerned with people - with her colleague, with Susan, and even with Granddad.
Science was concerned with things, ideas, and correctness. He and the Doctor butted heads quite a bit because the Doctor likes playing with Science, bending it to his whims, while the Doctor showed History some passing respect.

History was concerned about doing the right thing.
Science was concerned with understanding the answers he was given.

And I absolutely loved that Science lost his footing and wound up sprawled on the floor at the end - its pretty much what I'd expect from a personification of Science ever having to deal with the sweet sweet non-sense which is the Doctor.

Visuals of the time-vortex and sound effect when closing the door were the only really weak parts of the episode. A good start, though I don't really see how this was going to be an educational program at this point.

The first Doctor is very different from the Doctor's I know so well. Even 8 seemed far more full of compassion than this one, but this Doctor also has something I've never seen before. He has his family to protect (Amy-Rory-River do not count). Knowing what "The Doctor" comes to be by the 50th and then watching this again... I feel I'm in for one hell of a ride.

Edit: Re curly's recommendations. Thanks! I'll be sure to post at the very least thoughts about those episodes as I get to them. Still trying to find a style that suits me and itsn't taking from others.

[Thufir]

So. For some reason I feel a bit bad for only doing fourteen episodes and a minisode of the twenty or so I originally wanted to give you as a big celebration/endurance test. So let's do more! After all, I really started this marathon in the early hours of Tuesday morning, meaning I have a day and an evening to see how many I can reasonably do in a week. Plus I'm thinking of having a look at The Fish Doctors and An Adventure in Time and Space if nothing else so I can bulk up my Fiftieth Anniversary section. (Also I want to finish Eleven's reign and I only have a month)
Should I? Or no?

You're quite the glutton for punishment. But regardless of whether you review them or not you should definitely watch Five-ish Doctors (I got really confused until I realised 'fish' was an abbreviation) and Adventure. The former I actually watched before getting to DotD last night, and I just watched Adventure. They're all very different things. DotD of course has all the elements of good Doctor Who - emotions, humour and just general fun. Five-ish Doctors obviously is pretty much all over-the-top humour. Adventure is pretty much all emotions.
I certainly wouldn't say they're better than DotD, but really it's very difficult to compare them at all. Regardless, Adventure I would say should be considered essential anniversary viewing. Five-is I wouldn't consider so essential, but it is hilarious.

Alright, so I know I'll need to find a review style if I decide to watch/re-watch episodes and we already have plenty of reviewers with fantastic styles and approaches... so I'll understand if this gets glossed over.

Huzzah! More reviews.

I'm going to try (repeat try) to go through the history of who in order (skipping only episodes I don't have access to because I don't own copies / can't find them online / or something of the sort).

Ambitious. I mean, I'm doing that, but I'm not trying to review them all. In fact, so far I'm trying to review one serial and I keep stalling out on that. I should really get back to it.

I like that the History teacher feels the need to make this "the right thing" while the science teacher is rather content to do it just out of curiosity. That has a wonderful commentary on the humanities vs the Sciences right there.

I love this angle you took on it. It's not something I ever considered, but it makes a lot of sense considering Ian and Barbara as avatars of their particular subjects (I couldn't be bothered to quote all the other bits where you expanded on it in their interactions with the Doctor though).

I love watching older doctor's snark. Hurt was glorious when he was taking potshots at sand-shoes and other things, and that something Hartnell is very good at too.

Science - You're treating us like children.
Doctor: Am I? The children of my civilization would be insulted.

YES.

Visuals of the time-vortex and sound effect when closing the door were the only realy weak parts of the episode. A good start, though I don't really see how this was going to be an educational program at this point.

There were visuals of the time vortex in this episode?
And yeah, the educational aspect was somewhat tenuous at best. Although I suppose they probably managed better with the historical episodes, because there it was somewhat educational just by showing off the setting. That said, I don't think there was much that could be considered educational in this serial. There's only so much you can easily say about cavemen.

[dps]

And introducing susan... I think she... ...actually looks 15.

Carole Ann Ford was actually 23. Amazingly, she was only 31 years younger than William Hartnell (or 32, depending on what source you go by for Hartnell's date of birth).

[SuperPanda]

The Cave of Skulls

Season 1, Season 1 Part 2

Quick recap: The Doctor has taken History and Science hostage... well that kinda sums up all 50 years now doesn't it?

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The Doctor's yet to be named actually, so far he's just Granddad to Susan. "Science" is really Ian who is a science teacher, but he works so well as a stand-in Science, like in a morality play, that its difficult not to make the comparison. Similarly History is actually named Barbara.

There was a single moment of Susan flirting with Ian last episode. Symbolically there were two other points that make me think this might be a subtle character arc. 1 - she wasn't happy with "childish" experiments and wanted to be more grown up. Also she seemed far more eager to make him understand her confusion with the 5 dimensions than to make Barbara understand why she thought Brittain might turn to a decimal system one day.

Barbara and Ian are shown to have chemistry together (in Ian's chemistry lab too) shortly before we see a scene of Susan happily pointing out errors (flaws) in a history book - preceded by jokes about her rewriting (replacing) the book. I'm interested to see if that continues.

The Doctor himself is a a lot more like a predatory Cat than a teething puppy. This difference was highlighted in the 50th really nicely by Hurt's doctor.

Trying a slightly different format - still finding my feet with these. Will be trackign plot threads (what works and what doesn't), nitpicks, symbolic moments, technical stuffs, and others in their own parts rather than doing a play by play synopsis).

Spoiler: Introducing - Fire

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We've already got the show's conceit tucked away with Episode one, so now we're moving onto the serial's plot line and this seems to be the quest for Fire. We're in the past, so I'm guessing Barbara will be a key player in the story - though this being the 60s that key role might be as damsel in distress... but the thing being searched for is fire which represents knowledge and power - which means The Doctor.

This plot line in and of itself is very good. I could see a whole show just about the conflicts presented here. We have Change / Tradition and physical power / knowledge set up in conflict. To make it more fun, its not at all clear which champion is on which team. The old woman suggests that the old chief was wrong for making fire, but the young woman says tradition is that the chief makes the fire. So there is going to be Change no matter what, it is a question of whether they change their ways or change their chief. We see that Fireless is angry at being mocked, but he doesn't actually strike the old woman instead he's trying to use his brain.

I suspect this will parallel Ian and Barbara's story through this serial. Someone clinging to traditions and security vs someone trying to use their brain and make sense of a world he only partially understands.

Spoiler: Science and the Doctor don't see eye to eye

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I love the exchanges here. Neither of them is being unreasonable but the Doctor is such a devious Troll. He's baiting Ian, setting him up to be flabergasted again. Barbara is now the one "taking things as they come."

Also:
Ian: "Doctor Foreman"
Doctor: "Doctor Who"
Me

Spoiler: Susan's crush... I'm not reading too much into this I swear.

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When Ian stumbles she catches gets him to lean on her for support, and she spends a good long time staring up at him after and checking on him. Barbara and Ian are busy taking in the sites, while Susan doesn't once look to her grand-dad, to Barbara, or to the outside world. She spends the whole time looking at him.

Spoiler: Nitpick

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The Doctor worries about the police box still being a police box before he actually looks back at it. The reaction shot would have been more powerful as a reaction... but then he's the doctor, he's alloud to sometimes get the action-reaction order confused.

Its in Quarry. :P Enjoy the view film crew, you'll be back.

Spoiler: Music

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Really well done, simple but gets the point across. Good suspense and mystery.

Spoiler: Companion banter again

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Ian seems to have come to grips with being wrong. As the embodiment of Science he's done so pretty quickly and has even started to get excited about the possibilities. Being human his pride is a bit wounded but he's still remarkably good at admitting he was wrong.

Barbara on the other hand, as the embodiment of history, seems to have no trouble accepting what has happened. She doesn't have to understand it, only know that it happened.

It makes a good dynamic between the two. He's full of questions and she's just happily taking notes.

Susan has some interaction here, but is largely focused on what's really important: Where the Doctor's wandered off too.

On the plus side, the Doctor found companions that understand "Don't wander off" Sadly he hasn't learned that lesson yet.

Spoiler: Return of Fire

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Didn't like seeing the doctor smoke but I understand it for both the time of the show and the plot going on here... that plus the editing made it look like he was trying to smoke the local dirt which is such a very Doctor thing to do.

I like the moral complexity in the caveman story. Old Leader seems to have done everything we modern people would call right and yet he's being presented as a maybe-bad guy, and is not on great footing with his own people for sure.

Cal and Za have a wonderful set of boasting competitions. It strikes me that his could also be a sideways commentary on our political systems, but its engaging and enjoyable. There isn't much more to say on the basic form.

I liked how the doctor just flat out says he'll give the fire to everyone making both would-be-leaders unhappy. When the doctor stands up for Ian, defending him as Ian tried to help defend the Doctor - well, that's the point where I know he is The DOCTOR, the doctor I've always known just in a regeneration I'm not yet familair with.

I like how complex Za's been made. He's obviously in love, but dealing with his wounded pride. He's desperate to be the leader, but also honestly seems to want the best for his people. He's ascompasionate as his time lets him... I'm really hoping the Doctor finds a way to help him but the end.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wow, if I'm going to follow this thread regularly, I'll need to find my reading glasses. And I thought some of the homebrew thread posts were hard to complete....

To those of you looking to get into the old series:

- I advise picking it up around 4th or 5th regen. Those, and certain of the Sylvester McCoy material, always shined in my eyes, and 4th is far enough along that one can avoid the distraction of really low-budget early days. Though, really, every regen has at least a couple eps that really stand out.

- Get used to watching less at a time. Many of the old shows were 2-3 times longer than the modern stuff, so completing one episode of the serials takes a good chunk of time.

Anyway, while the pacing is different, when the writing was good, it was very good. The Key to Time miniseries and the end of Baker/start of Davison are my big highlights, and I'd recommend them to anyone, even if they had little interest in the show.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Wow, if I'm going to follow this thread regularly, I'll need to find my reading glasses. And I thought some of the homebrew thread posts were hard to complete....

When this thread moves, it moves fast. Plus you have semi-regular reviewers (mostly for Classic and Nu Who) bringing up thoughts, themes and ideas from what they've watched that get more comments.

And of course you have the usual old arguments about Doctors, Companions, villains, monsters, themes, which is better Nu, Classic, EU, Big Finish, books, audio in general, comic?, and really quite a bit.

Currently we're clipping along quickly because we had rediscovered episodes shortly before the anniversary. And there's this strange girl who decided to do a lot of reviews in a short amount of time. For the anniversary. Then the anniversary happened and people, for the most part, really enjoyed at least one of the big specials made for it.

EDIT:
@Thu: I'm responding to your uber-massive post at the moment.

[Phelix-Mu]

When this thread moves, it moves fast. Plus you have semi-regular reviewers (mostly for Classic and Nu Who) bringing up thoughts, themes and ideas from what they've watched that get more comments.

And of course you have the usual old arguments about Doctors, Companions, villains, monsters, themes, which is better Nu, Classic, EU, Big Finish, books, audio in general, comic?, and really quite a bit.

Currently we're clipping along quickly because we had rediscovered episodes shortly before the anniversary. And there's this strange girl who decided to do a lot of reviews in a short amount of time. For the anniversary. Then the anniversary happened and people, for the most part, really enjoyed at least one of the big specials made for it.

EDIT:
@Thu: I'm responding to your uber-massive post at the moment.

I see the new show largely in the same light as the old show; when it's good, it's crazy good. Sometimes, not so much, and it rubs little bits of me (like the bits that are continuity-fiends and techno-babble savvy) the wrong way from time to time.

But not nearly enough to make me dislike the show. Yes, the new series has shorter episodes and has overindulged in certain bits of zany timeline-crossing or counter-tracking (the River Song stuff was awesomely, mind-blowingly, hard to keep track of...and I consider myself a very smart person). But the key, that the Doctor is a wanderer and moral champion who travels about, bumps into strange situations, and then tries to put things right/survive/find the high ground. That has held up very well, and is, quite miraculously, still entertaining.

Anyway, I posted a bit before...now several pages back, but a brand new HELLO to all of you that are regulars here. Even if, for some reason, I didn't want to post here, I probably would end up posting anyway. Doctor Who has been that for me. At six, I got so scared by an episode that I quite the show for almost 4 years. Then, a little older, I came back to it, blank VHS tapes in hand, and I've been a diehard Whovian ever since. While I was late to jump on the new series (and skeptical), I've softened in my views since. I'll have to expand to the audio series and novels soon.

[Pex]

Going to reply to both Aotrs and Reverent here:
I did not like the ending for several reasons and elaborate more on why I didn't like the ending.
It dragged, thereby ruining the pacing which caused the shock of finding out the Doctor is dying to slow to a crawl. This in turn made me care less about the Doctor dying and just want the episode to end already. That twenty minute epilogue - half a standard episode - made me not care that this was the last time we'd ever see Ten. I couldn't care even though I actually wanted to because, all my problems with Ten aside, when he was the Doctor he really was fantastic.

Snippage for brevity.

As opposed to what? Eccleston only doing one season/series, then so long and thanks for all the jelly babies? The "schmaltz" was on purpose. For this one time, this one regeneration, the Doctor gets to say goodbye. He never gets to say goodbye. Now he can. There is precedent. In "The Next Doctor" he finally gets thanks for his help. The Doctor is extremely lonely. Doctor Tennant longs for the sappiness. That is a contrast to Doctor Smith who was embarrassed and angry that River would get the universe to say they love him for existing.

[turkishproverb]

In your opinion. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed 'The Day of the Doctor', and if Adventures and FISH are better that will be excellent too!

That generally goes without saying.

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"Surviving 8 Hours Filming Inside a Tin Can: A Spotters Guide of Drain Grates in London"

heh. Good one.

Edit:

Another thought strikes, this one perhaps marginally saner.

If I were to look into some of the audio plays, which would you all recommend as the highlights? (With bias towards Eight - of whom I've seen/heard so undeservedly little - Mum found the 96 movie on demand and we watched that this afternoon, which made me think - and my unashamed Dalek fanboyism.)

And, come to that, same question, regarding the novels (something else I could add to my Christmas lists.)

Edit edit: I just wiki'd the list of audia dramas.

Frack my tin hat, to paraphrase my mate. That is a LOT of audio plays. I knew they'd done a fair few, but I hadn't realised they'd done THAT many!

More than 1 a month since 1999.


Also, off the top of my head: Spare Parts, light at the end, Jubilee, Ish, Fanfare for the Common Men, The Wrong Doctors, The One Doctor, Bang Bang a Boom, Chimes of Midnight, Blood of the Daleks, Company of Friends, Most of the "Charlie" audios, most of the "lucy" audios, Dark Eyes, "The Silver Turk", Doctor Who and the Pirates.

It... kind of did feel like a regular episode, I'll grant you, though I wouldn't say it felt 'bloated', and it was like a regular episode with three Doctors and masses of nods to the classic series and a load of ongoing plot significance.
Oh, and it was really good, let's not forget that.

I think I've seen a better episode at least once a series since the new show came on. It felt confused, jumbled, forced, and even bloated in places. It had an even worse excuse for a Richard Hurndall equivalent that could have easily been replaced by a number of other doctors or characters watching it, and had a sense of seriousness and humor that was often badly timed. That said, there was good. It's not like it was "love and monsters" or something.

Certainly glad I didn't go out of the way to get tickets to see it in the cinema, though.

The blushing faces in this exchange mean I am now shipping you two together, just FYI.

huh.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Curly Reviews:

Spoiler: The Next Doctor

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Ten does have a bit of superhero about him to be fair.
Of course, also David Morrissey was one of the several people who had been rumoured at the time as a possible actor for the next Doctor (As far as I recall, Matt Smith was not one of the rumoured though, so goes to show how good those rumours are...)

Well yes, but he's the Doctor and a superhero. Nexty felt like a superhero who could act like the Doctor.
And I wouldn't have minded seeing him as the Doctor. He actually felt like the Doctor at times even though he really wasn't.

Pretty sure it was Ten.

Nope.

The Doctor: "[Pointing to frozen Abigail Pettigrew] Who's she?"
Kazran Sardick: "Nobody important."
The Doctor: "Nobody important? Blimey, that's amazing. You know that in nine hundred years of time and space and I've never met anybody who wasn't important before."
- 'The Christmas Carol'

Mm. For all that this special has its issues, I liked the character of Jackson Lake.

...
..damn, I was much less dirty-minded the last time I watched this special...

You really didn't get the 'feminist' subtext of the woman wanting control and dominance over men in any and all capacities? It was a bit obvious from the blatant disregard for the cultural rules established by the patriarchy in the beginning. She was dressing as sexually as possible in red while still being modest enough to walk around London and be respectable.

Actually, though this might be partly because it's you saying it, it makes me imagine a giant Cyber Freddie Mercury.

Providing the CyberFreddie still had his voice that would be an amazing and wonderful thing.

Ah. A very good question. There are two answers: One, RTD just didn't think about it. Two, Moffat sort of retroactively explained it in S5 with the cracks in time messing up people's memories.

I'm beginning to think Moffatt came up with that concept to fix any and all plot holes like that because he was sick and tired of people saying 'But if [even happened in 1950] then surely people would have talked about it etc. so they would know what was happening in [present day Lonon]?'

"Nonsense?! Well, yes, perhaps. But oh, what precious nonsense!"

"Th[is] is a transcendentality of delirium – an acute accentuation of supremest ecstasy – which the earthy might easily mistake for indigestion. But it is not indigestion – it is aesthetic transfiguration!"
(And you would not believe who I caught eating fresh butter with a tablespoon but yesterday!)

...I'd actually be quite amused to see that.

I'm sure one of the Big Finishes was a musical.

Spoiler: Planet of the Dead

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Well, that was a bit of stupidity I'd completely forgotten.
I'm now trying to remember when I did rewatch the specials. I think I only did so once. And for that matter it's possible I didn't rewatch all of them.
...actually, it's possible I didn't even rewatch them. I distinctly remember realising I hadn't rewatched them because my DVDs were still in the plastic wrapping, but I'm not sure if I then actually bothered to watch them after removing it.

I think it was meant to be humorous or satirical.
Well given that 'The Day of the Doctor' recontextualises 'End of Time' - "I don't want to go" contains more punch now that we know he said it pre-season three about not wanting to go to Trenzalore and that he could be afraid about making himself forget what he did - I've decided that it's ending is a little less awful than it was, but it still drags on for far too long and is a bit mean spirited.
So as long as you skip 'Planet of the Dead' the specials are pretty good, and 'Waters of Mars' should definitely be watched again. Definitely.

Yes. He annoyed me.

He was okay.

Actually I'm pretty sure most Time Lords would be terrified by this situation, since most Time Lords never left the safety and security of Gallifrey.

But they'd still enjoy having mysteries to solve and new things to play with. They might not like the immediate danger, but the rest of the situation would fascinate them.

The flying bus was one of the things in this episode I actually still quite like. The London bus is just so iconically British, so making it that significant (and making it fly) appealed to me.

Eh. Teetered over the line between cheesy good and cheesy bad for me.

Except throwing cream pies at people would at least mean their vision was impaired.

Dalek: "MY-VIS-ION-IS-NOT-IM-PAIRED."
Literally my first thought.

Fortunately because you referred to Lady Christina as 'Thief' throughout, instead of thinking about the episode, I started reminiscing about the video game series of that name, which of course was much better.
Oh, and now I'm thinking of The Doctor's Wife instead. The Doctor's a much better thief than LCdS.

The Thief games are very good fun. As is 'The Doctor's Wife'. Even Lady Penelope was a better thief than Thief!

Of course, if it had been more of a straight reprise of Midnight, they probably would've been more likely to turn on Lady Christina than the Doctor, so that's something.

What a lovely thought. I'd have loved to see that. And she'd have deserved it too.

Spoiler: The Bells of St. John

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The internet must flow!
Also, people are much more likely to be careful once they're online than when they;re trying to get online. I don't know if it's possible to have a virus or anything that'd get onto your computer just by you connecting to a wireless network without having to go to any particular website/click any particular link.whatever, so...

I'm quite happy I managed to avoid the Dune reference. Thought it might be overdone.
Really? I'm careful about joining networks and getting online, possibly because I know just enough about networks to know what problems could arise.

Ooh. Hmm. Yeah, that would make a certain amount of sense, though I don't know if it was intentional on Moffat's part.

I think it was. He wrote 'The Snowmen' which showed how the Great Intelligence came to earth and was dispersed. Thus some of the FI-infected snow must have made it over to the Himalayas somehow (handwave, handwave) and then it made it back to London in the 1960s because Travers brought a Yeti back with him. Then after whatever happened happened the Great Intelligence probably latched onto the first human it could, probably as an imaginary friend (like with Simeon) until it became strong enough to be more. Hell, for all we know, Clara may have successfully saved the Doctor from all the fragments of the Great Intelligence in his timeline bar one. The one fragment that we saw communicating with child!Simeon in 'The Snowmen'.
This also means that, in a twisted way, the Doctor really has defeated the Great Intelligence hundreds and hundreds of times, but only knowingly defeated it a half dozen times or so.

She is in a similar sort of mould/style/whatever. Also I was sure I knew Celia Imrie from something other than St. Trinian's, but I didn't spot anything else I recognised in her filmography.

Same build and hairstyle with a similar voice.

It's certainly a point which resonates fairly strongly with people like us...

>.>
No one tells me what to do! Except my parents. And siblings. And cat. And friends. And . . . okay.

Um, I think you are during most of the flight, just not during take-off and landing? Maybe? It's been years since I was on a plane, I'm not sure if wifi was even a thing at the time.

I've never flown so I don't know.

He tends to bet on villains gloating a lot, and it rarely fails him.

Note to self: if I ever become a villainous person, shoot first. Gloat to corpse.

I'm looking at you like that.

Typical.

This is a large proportion of Nu Who in a nutshell.

It's a large portion of Classic Who in a nutshell too.

Spoiler: Waters of Mars

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I really shouldn't be surprised, but I am very amused.

This implies that you were a little surprised anyway. You should just be glad I limited my Labyrinth references otherwise there would have been a lot more.

It's always nice to hear the inspiring speeches about how space travel and exploration is totally worth it. Because it can't be denied that in most relevant media (and probably in real life when we get that far), it requires a lot of sacrifices to be made.

Because it does. Doesn't mean there aren't inspirational stories and speeches, but we don't get to hear them as often.

Shame that got kind of spoiled later in the episode by the water going "Nah, don't need to be patient, we have evil water superpowers now!" A really patient and quite slow but inexorable and unstoppable enemy would've made an interesting change, and possibly fit better with some of the other elements of the episode. Though YMMV, and it didn't bother me that much (Also I'm still not sure if I've watched this more than once. I should rewatch this one)

No, it worked fine. Water can be patient when it has time, but it is also the flood, the raging tsunami and the ocean smashing against the shore with such force that cliffs crumble before it and houses break under its pressure.
You can't have water as a villain without showing the violence of water as well as its patience. Also patient water wouldn't have been as interesting to watch. But even so the violence was in fits and starts, most of the goblins were content to wait until one of them had won them an advantage that allowed them into the base proper to start wrecking things.

Because he's not doing massive CGI spectacle! This is a point I expect to be revisiting later in this post - the irony with both Nu Who showrunners is that a lot of their issues can be summed up by or attributed to them going overboard with the spectacle and the CGI, when if they stuck to just writing good characters (Which has always be Who's strong point, dating back to when they didn't have a big enough budget for the spectacle), they'd be much better off, because they're good at that.

It's also why 'Name' and 'Day' worked well too! Yes, there was a lot of spectacle at times, but it was tied into the character's history and personality so inextricably that they literally couldn't be who they are without the spectacle.

Yeah, but that's interesting! It's an arc. And the kind of arc you can only do when you're building towards a regeneration because obviously you can't really maintain it for too long because then you're changing the whole show.
If RTD had put a bit more into that for the other specials they could've been a lot better. Especially if he'd actually carried some of it over into End of Time instead of just dropping it instantly. Seeing the Doctor becoming a more potentially villainous Time Lord before being brought back to himself by the appearance of the actual villainous Time Lords... would've been much more interesting than a lot of what actually happened.

There are still elements in 'End of Time' that hark at this; not as much as it could have because of the decision to show the Doctor having skived off in between specials (even though it's very understandable) because it reduces the immediacy of his actions.
Clearly he's meant to have been repulsed by what he did, that he began to consider that little people actually existed (not actual little people, but unimportant people) and that he tried to bend Time to his whims. I see that in the cafe scene and in a few other pieces, but it would have been nice for him to almost have mood swings where at times he's all for killing the Master and committing deeds he'd later regret, and at other times breaking down in tears because he hates himself so much. Ultimately it's subtle, but it's there. If anything I can see that slightly darker, villainous potential in Eleven and that's why I like him. He's sometimes so clearly very angry and consciously restraining himself from doing something he'd regret eventually, but often he's just this mostly harmless man. A man so young, but whose eyes, voice and posture sometimes belie all the centuries and horrors and wonders he's ever seen. But still, Eleven hopes. And he tries.

Spoiler: The End of Time Part 1

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Everyone who was on the Valiant remembered. As to why she's in prison... not sure. Was anyone on the Valiant with enough authority to sort that? Or maybe she's in prison for murdering her husband, which happened after the reverse.

No one that important was on the Valiant at the time, so maybe the Doctor had words with UNIT or something? Or Mrs. master went to prison for murder, whatever.

All good questions. Also it was never explained why she suddenly changed sides.

Because she Saw the Light. I always thought there was this undercurrent of abuse, torture and manipulation with Mrs. Master so that she was actually a little insane, so it's a little bit of a letdown that she suddenly became sane in 'End of Time'.

Well, they said back in S3 or earlier that Time Lords could sense each other. I figured smell was not being talked about literally here.

Then why not say 'sense'? And I think it was literal because there were repeated shots of them sniffing.

Mm. I dunno. I didn't see it like that. As to differing attitudes to regeneration, well, that's the thing. The Doctors are different, and so they do have differing attitudes to regeneration. This one I feel is actually somewhat characteristic of Ten. Even his hardcore fans would be hard-pushed to argue he's not a bit selfish.
I mean, maybe there could be other ways to get across similar ideas without the potential bad points, but, *shrug*.

*points to a post somewhere on pg. 7 where she elaborates about this scene and the epilogue in particular*
I'd also argue that all the Nu Doctors are quite selfish, and probably some of the Classic ones too, though each to varying degrees.

Given that it's apparently his own life force he's burning up for the lightning, why does it have no ill effects on him?

Magic.

Ha. I was trying to think of homoeroticism in this special given someone's comment after these reviews (I read through the thread and just quoted your reviews without reading them in advance because I was sure I'd have something to say), but I forgot this bit.

It's an ocean of gay.

I took the implication that if Wilf hadn't intervened, maybe the Doctor would've permadied. Not sure what precise difference Wilf was supposed to have made.

Giving him the option. Someone cared. If not, he would have been alone, and after 'Waters of Mars' and redooming Gallifrey he might well of chosen to die. After all, he did commit suicide in the 'Left'!verse's Racnoss aftermath.

Actually I think they're talking specifically about Torchwood One, which was Canary Wharf, and of course that fell at the end of S2. The Torchwood Jack runs is Torchwood Three, in Cardiff, with far less resources.

Ah.

Yeah. That was a thing. One more too-big RTD setup that he couldn't resolve properly. Also another "works because X is clever." 'Cause healing according to a template, sure, that could maybe work, it's sci-fi, there's technobabble. But changing a machine which heals according to a template into a machine which changes people's species, without actually altering the machine itself, only the software? And then not just changing them to be a different species, but imprinting them with the exact traits and mind of a specific individual? I don't buy it. That feels to me like it would require more than a few quick software alterations.

Magic.
And I actually thought at first it would have been Time Lord tech, something sent to Earth/planted by the Time Lord's High Council/the Master himself in anticipation of there being an event where he could use it in such a way.
It would have made more sense than just opportunity and super-fast hacking.

Spoiler: The End of Time Part 2

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Well, on the one hand it's all for the common good of all of them because they're all the same person. On the other hand it would've been amusing to see the Master arguing with himself because all of him wanted to be in charge.

The Doctor can barely get along with himself even when things are At Stake and he's almost completely sane! You're asking the Master to work with someone. And I'd have issues with versions of myself trying to order me around because who gave him the right to decide he was better than me?! We're the same person, and I do not do orders well.

I think I need to rewatch this special just for these scenes, because I only vaguely remember them, and again, last time I watched them I had a much less dirty mind.

We mustn't have known each other very well by then.

I kind of liked that, because it makes a certain amount of sense. It's not a matter of him not taking lives, because he does, when he has to. But he's never a warrior, never a soldier, he never carries a real weapon. He goes into battles armed with a screwdriver and his wits and that's a big partof how after all the death he's seen and caused he can still call himself the Doctor. It's symbolic more than anything else.

Well it makes more sense now doesn't it? Honestly, 'Day' recontextualises a lot of things that I once had problems with. And perhaps subconsciously Ten remembered the events that happened so if there was another way to solve that hateful situation, why couldn't there always be another situation. It even works because he became so much more anti-gun in season three and four!

Yep. At the end of his run on the show, RTD has reached the point of literally handwaving away the problems he doesn't have proper resolutions for.

Magic. I also don't really mind this too much because it's the Pricklypants of Rassilon who is a Really Big Bigwig in Time Lord Society. He was Lord President and that means he has some serious power.

That section annoyed me, tbh. It just seemed pointlessly melodramatic when in the end he was just going to shoot the diamond. It might have worked for me if he'd come up pointing the gun at Rassilon, then switched to the Master, then had the "get out of the way." But it didn't seem to me like he'd really have to spend that much time realising he could just shoot the diamond instead of a person.

People don't think well in tense scenes? RTD wanted more banter? More tension?

IIRC, doesn't the music pretty much stop for a bit there as well, so we have complete silence (or nearly) before the knocking? I remember it being really effective.

And I loved that as a why for Ten to go out. After all the bombast, all the grandstanding, a certain amount of selfishness, possible delusions of godhood, he's still the Doctor and he will give his life (one of his lives at any rate) to save one old man.

I think so.
And that's what the Doctor always does. He could leave the moment anything gets personally dangerous but he always stays, he always tries to help, and most of his regenerations imply that he died trying to save someone. Well, maybe half of them.

I raged a bit at that. Especially since Martha was already engaged the last time we saw her.

I thought she was but I wasn't completely sure. Either RTD forgot or he just didn't care.

See, again, I felt this was rather characteristic of Ten. However, it dragged on too long for my liking. I would've much preferred it if most of these little scenes had been significantly abbreviated, primarily leaving out most bits of the companions actually noticing the Doctor. He's doing it for himself, not for them, he should just come see, maybe save the life, and be gone like a ghost that makes TARDIS noises.

*points out that post she made somewhere on pg. 7 again*

Apparently RTD said somewhere she was supposed to be the Doctor's mother, but since it was never stated onscreen it's not canon and that's stupid so I ignore it. I like to think it's future-Donna, having found a way to safely unlock her Time Lord side again. Susan is also a valid possibility.

I like the idea of it being Susan. It seems fitting somehow. And I quite can't imagine the Doctor having parents, but I can easily imagine him adopting.

Spoiler: The Name of the Doctor

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Well, Strax doesn't seem to understand gender in general. It confuses him.

I know. That's why it was amusing.

But it was so chilling and so good. But yes.

Jenny/Mme. Vastra. Always.
But yes, an extremely effective scene.

See, this, like the last bit I quoted, just brings me back to where I'm uncertain about this episode. Because I remember it being a bit lacklustre, but then when I stop to think about it properly I remember bits like this and they're so good.

Just because something is made of good scenes and lines doesn't make it good overall. I mostly enjoyed 'Name' though. Perhaps it was because of the anticipation, but I don't think so. The River bits were the weaker points in the episode to me.

Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS , surprisingly enough, is the episode which involves climbing through a wrecked TARDIS. I can't actually remember what she's remembering in this scene though and in any case Curlers.

Typical. Does watching the episode make the scene any better?

Strax is a bit like the Monty Python Black Knight, come to think of it.

One of mum's favourite serials involves Sontarans in medieval armour. Welp, if I ever get hold of that you know what I'll be doing.

That's... one of the issues with this episode. The GI makes it sound like the Doctor's beaten him hundreds of times to build up this grudge, as opposed, to... three or four?
This would be one reason why I feel like this episode is pretty good in and of itself (though it still has some definite flaws), but works less well in context because it still feels like there are bits of said context missing.

*points further up post where she had a bit of possible fridge brilliance about this*

Yeah. That would be one of the definite flaws.

It's not even a good theme any more because I just sigh now. Why not have more stars burst into existence. But they're actually millions upon millions of supernovae.

I actually didn't like that though. Because I don't really think the GI went back and tried to make the Doctor take a different TARDIS. Also because it spoils the beauty of their first meeting, which should be just the two of them and not require any outside input, especially given the description in The Doctor's Wife. Moffat's messing with my Gaiman here, and that I can't abide.

Point.

Well, yes, somewhere in time she's alive, but this is her when she's in the Library computer, at which point she's dead. Though given the nature of this meeting, this may also be the last time the Doctor sees her (And that we do as well, therefore).

But why are we seeing her post-Library now? And I didn't see any clues to that at all; for all I know, she could be lounging in a bar or in prison somewhere relaxing.
And if this is the last time we see River I'm fine with it to be honest.

And that I liked, as a way of living up to the episode title without actually revealing the Doctor's real name. Well, that and the last line, but I can't be bothered to quote the whole exchange.

Remember 'Time of the Angels'/'Flesh and Stone' where we find from . . . Laura? . . . that in some languages 'Doctor' means 'warrior'? Imagine how he must have felt about that, knowing what we know now?

Spoiler: Night of the Doctor

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And he's right - he's not the Doctor I was expecting. But I was so pleased it was him.

I knew it was him from the voice! And that litany of Companions he recites? I think that makes at least Eight's Big Finish (and book?) adventures canon. So many Big Finish and other Eight fans must have been overjoyed. I think almost everyone else was.

That does seem to be a common idea Moffat likes to bring back with whichever Doctor he's writing - the ability to do lots of activities in a short space of time and get bored without them. Obviously most commonly with Eleven, but this did seem very reminiscent of Eleven's similar moments. Though I loved "Bring me knitting."

Actually all the Doctors I've ever seen are fairly easily distractable, so it's not just a Moffatt thing, but maybe more noticeable.

Yeah, that minisode by itself convinced me to move onto some audio adventures once I finally finish going through Classic Who. Also I'd love it if we could get Eight back in the future for some other multi-Doctor special. Maybe not be likely, since the 50^th is gone and by the next big milestone he will have aged, but I can hope.

I would be very pleased to see Eight more in the future too; he deserves more screen time. And technically the next big milestone is only in ten years, so he'll be in his sixties or so. Not that bad.

Spoiler: Day of the Doctor

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Yeah, sounds about right actually. I'd mark this as the final nail in the coffin of River's claim that AGMGtW was him rising higher and falling further than ever before...

True. Unless she's referring to his decision to go to war for the first time since he was the War Doctor the fall of the 'new' good man. And in the Doctor's mind a 'good man' is synonymous with 'the Doctor'. Maybe this is the first time he went to war as the Doctor? I don't know.

I was so happy at the callbacks.

Most people probably liked them

...there's now a part of me wondering if they put in a special effect that looked fake deliberately as a callback to Classic Who effects. Probably not, though they could always claim they did if people criticise it.

It looked too fake to be accidental. But maybe.

He may have become a warrior, but he still hasn't lost his flair for the dramatic.

I will be very worried the day the Doctor stops being dramatic.

It is very much like that. I was rather pleased that it turned out to not actually be Rose.

So was I!

And, as you have pointed out before, Billie Piper is actually a pretty good actress. The problem was with the writing and the character of Rose. Since this is a different writer and a very different (and much more interesting) character, it's actually really good. She's getting a chance to flex those acting muscles.

She's playing an ancient, unknowable, sentient machine in Rose's/a woman's skin. She's basically Sexy.

Moffat loves giving Ten weird gadgets. He hasn't done that with Eleven to my recollection, but the spiel about the machine that goes ding was very much like the spiel about his timey-wimey detector in Blink.

Eleven is weird enough that giving him too many weird gadgets would be over-the-top, whereas Ten is more 'normal'. For a Doctor.

YES.
I really want to rewatch the special for all these bits.

It's on iPlayer and probably a hundred places online. You can rewatch all you want.

I kind of have to wonder if Moffat has ever read The Ten Doctors or if that's entirely coincidental rather than being a reference.

Maybe is all I can say.

It was obvious as soon as Ten started doing the clever and slightly insulting speech.

Well, yeah, the twin switch is a bit obvious like that.

I love the round things.

They're salad bowls. And did you notice the round things in the background when the Doctor was speaking with the Curator?

I loved that, because you could see that phonecall was probably going to be significant, and I spotted that the painting was in the Black Archive when they arrived there and I didn't know why. Especially after going through your reviews of RTD's last couple of finales it's really refreshing to note how everything in DotD was actually established and set up in advance. No handwaves that I recall.

I was a little occupied so I didn't see the painting in the Archive, but the phone call was obviously going to be important, it had screen time. As for there being no handwaves in this special, there are probably a few, but they're much less prominent all round or, once you think about them even a little you realise they're not handwaves at all.

I liked the board with all the pictures of past companions, even if we couldn't see it properly. It occurred to me at that point that including UNIT was one of the best ideas for making a decent anniversary special - it allows you to fit in so many little callbacks and nods to the classic series because of course they have records.

Freeze frame bonuses to encourage rewatching? Check.

I loved that moment. Ten and Eleven doing for War what Donna did for Ten in Pompeii.

More than that. They spent all this time reviling him and they deeds they committed as him. And then they realise that it truly was the best option they had (looks like fem!Brig's nuke situation did have an impact on the Doctor after all) so they decided to accept the guilt and blame they'd fled for hundreds of years. They accepted the part of them that is darker, more violent and more willing to take drastic options.
It was reconciling a part of themselves with the whole.

At this point, one could probably fill several pages with all the neat ways people have summed up the Doctor and how he operates, but I really don't mind getting more.

You could fill a book with Doctor Who quotes.

I remember reading somewhere before the special came out Moffat (and possibly others) saying how DotD was really going to change the shape of the show for the years to come and I was really worried about that. But this was obviously what they meant and it works.

I avoid things about Doctor Who because it's my 'job'. But this? I think the one thing people regret/whatever most about the Nu series is the exclusion of the Time Lords and Gallifrey because they're so intriguing as a species and a culture. Because of all the ideas that could spring up with multiple Time Lords running around.

And now there's a chance to bring them back. The Doctor's single biggest regret is now his single biggest hope. He ran away to explore the universe because home was always there, then he's explored the universe because he had no home, and now it's there again to explore and rebuild and love all over again.

[Reverent-One]

Going to reply to both Aotrs and Reverent here:
*Sniped for length*

Perhaps the main point is that I disagree with is that the ending was a disservice to Tennant. I thought it was a pretty great, fitting ending for Ten. Now, that the line also served as RTD's feelings on leaving, not wanting to go but knowing he it was time, was a clever touch, but because it fit Ten as well, I can't fault him for it. As for the general ending length, the thing about it was that those 20 minutes allowed the fans of all those characters to have a final goodbye as well, since they were also unlikely to come back in any meaningful way (as we've seen in the past 3 seasons, where the only reference to those companions was really an emergency Hologram on the Tardis).

And as for it poisoning the well for Smith, since I don't remotely think it was intentional and any choice by a writer will invariably displease somebody, I also don't hold that against RTD. If a few people want to get it into their heads that just because Ten didn't want his time to be up means that Eleven can't be the Doctor...that's on them. I also know people who liked the ending and Eleven (and in my case, I simply don't like Smith as much as other Doctors, still don't hate him or anything).

What exactly did you call? The Rose hate or the general ending hate?

General ending hate, especially that last 20 mins and regeneration.

[Thufir]

"Th[is] is a transcendentality of delirium – an acute accentuation of supremest ecstasy – which the earthy might easily mistake for indigestion. But it is not indigestion – it is aesthetic transfiguration!"
(And you would not believe who I caught eating fresh butter with a tablespoon but yesterday!)

While I'm cross-pollinating my (/our mutual) interests, did you know that Doctor Who and Discworld have consecutive birthdays? Because apparently they do. According to Terry Pratchett's twitter, TCoM was first published on the 24th of November, 1983.

I'm sure one of the Big Finishes was a musical.

Well, all the audio drama stuff I know is musical, come to think of it.
(This is because the only audio drama stuff I know is Six singing 'I am the very model of a Gallifreyan buccaneer')

Dalek: "MY-VIS-ION-IS-NOT-IM-PAIRED."
Literally my first thought.

Well of course.

I'm quite happy I managed to avoid the Dune reference. Thought it might be overdone.

The Dune references must flow!
(Maybe a little, though I don't see it come up that often actually)

Hell, for all we know, Clara may have successfully saved the Doctor from all the fragments of the Great Intelligence in his timeline bar one. The one fragment that we saw communicating with child!Simeon in 'The Snowmen'.
This also means that, in a twisted way, the Doctor really has defeated the Great Intelligence hundreds and hundreds of times, but only knowingly defeated it a half dozen times or so.

That... could work, I guess.

No, it worked fine. Water can be patient when it has time, but it is also the flood, the raging tsunami and the ocean smashing against the shore with such force that cliffs crumble before it and houses break under its pressure.
You can't have water as a villain without showing the violence of water as well as its patience. Also patient water wouldn't have been as interesting to watch. But even so the violence was in fits and starts, most of the goblins were content to wait until one of them had won them an advantage that allowed them into the base proper to start wrecking things.

It just seemed odd that the Doctor emphasised the patience of water and then the Water wasn't patient at all. If he'd put more emphasis on stuff about floods and tsunamis and so on, it wouldn't have bothered me.

It's also why 'Name' and 'Day' worked well too! Yes, there was a lot of spectacle at times, but it was tied into the character's history and personality so inextricably that they literally couldn't be who they are without the spectacle.

Oh yeah, I was actually going to say that about Day, because that was the context in which I originally had that thought. Because one of my biggest fears about it was that it would turn out to just be a load of meaningless self-indulgent spectacle, and then it turned out to be all about the characters

*points to a post somewhere on pg. 7 where she elaborates about this scene and the epilogue in particular*

Yeah. I'd agree with that. Like I said, I appreciate it as being characteristic of Ten, and marking the end of an era a bit, but the whole companion-visiting segment was far too long. I feel like I could've cut that down to half the size without even trying that hard.

We mustn't have known each other very well by then.

I went and checked (because I don't actually remember the dates of Who things for some reason). The specials were in 2009, so by the time of End of Time we had met in person once. And I had known Homoerotic Friend (the primary instigator of my now-much-dirtier mind) for two months so he hadn't had that much of an influence yet.

Well it makes more sense now doesn't it? Honestly, 'Day' recontextualises a lot of things that I once had problems with.

Yes, but other than the part emphasising the significance of his chosen name of The Doctor, I already had all those thoughts the first time I watched it, in this case. That him not carrying weapons was more symbolic than anything.

Just because something is made of good scenes and lines doesn't make it good overall. I mostly enjoyed 'Name' though. Perhaps it was because of the anticipation, but I don't think so. The River bits were the weaker points in the episode to me.

Basically, my considered opinion was that it was a good episode, but not such a good finale, because we were expecting resolution to things set up in the last two finales, and there wasn't any. Of course, now it looks like that resolution is coming in the Christmas special, so that's something. I just feel Moffat messed up his arc(s) somewhat and so Name suffered from some of the audience coming into it with the wrong expectations.

Typical. Does watching the episode make the scene any better?

If I remembered the scene in question I would tell you.

But why are we seeing her post-Library now? And I didn't see any clues to that at all; for all I know, she could be lounging in a bar or in prison somewhere relaxing.
And if this is the last time we see River I'm fine with it to be honest.

Why not? And I thought it was mentioned, though it might have only been in passing...

I avoid things about Doctor Who because it's my 'job'. But this? I think the one thing people regret/whatever most about the Nu series is the exclusion of the Time Lords and Gallifrey because they're so intriguing as a species and a culture. Because of all the ideas that could spring up with multiple Time Lords running around.

And now there's a chance to bring them back. The Doctor's single biggest regret is now his single biggest hope. He ran away to explore the universe because home was always there, then he's explored the universe because he had no home, and now it's there again to explore and rebuild and love all over again.

Well, I always assumed they'd be coming back eventually somehow anyway, especially after End of Time, because I figured surely sooner or later we'd want to bring the Master back again (I also figured he could be part of the explanation for how Gallifrey returned as well). But the manner of it was unexpected and exciting.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think there are few moments that encapsulate the essence of each regeneration of the Doctor better than the moments preceding the death of each. My recollection is that, even in the old series, there were strong differences in how each was portrayed, just as how each Doctor died doing a slightly different variation on the Doctor's normal heroics and schtick.

I really like this, and while some of the portrayals have been better quality, others less so, the fact that each is different really underscores how each Doctor is a different persona, even while being essentially the same man.

[SuperPanda]

I'm with Curly's second post on the End of Time epilogue (not the one inside her initial review but the one where she explained why it was a disservice to Tennent's time as the Doctor).


Eccelston was my Doctor and one of the defining traits he had, the thing which made me fall in love with the character, was that under his veneer of a raging storm was a big softy. Eccelston's doctor rage'd and fumed, but at the end of the day he could never stop trying to help and save everyone - he was compasionate to a fault even if the face of his most hated adversary.

Tennent's rage was a slow, cold, rage burried under his sorrow and loss. He ran from his rage with a beautiful and hilarious frenic energy (and with things that go ding when there's stuff). At the end of the day though, he was stilll that incredibly compasionate man.

Smith's run started making a concerted effort to show that he was still that same man (The whole point of the Beast Bellow). His doctor does though have less compasion, he's a nastier doctor in many ways. I love Smith's doctor but there have been times where he almost didn't feel right to me (and I'd thought it was the Valeyard being born in the Doctor's soul from his guilt and rage).

Eccelston's regeneration suited him - he died in an act of kindness and while showing off. He died as he'd lived... FanTAStic.

Tennet's "death" itself was wonderful - all the bombastic elements of his reign and him cleverly dodging them all to shout in the face of the time that he'd still won... but surendering it all to save Wilf. I didn't mind him ranting at Wilf too much but it felt ... undoctorly of him. But to save wilf and then/there regenerate into Smith would have been fine. He'd been a nihlistic doctor in many ways - his lonliness was deeper than eleven's ever got, his anger and rage deeper still. Day of the Doctor reminded us why: he still actively blamed himself for what happened on that day. He was still deep in survivor's guilt depression and he knew, he knew that his regeneration would very likely not be the same.

The schmaltzy ending was so very much a RTD love letter to himself.

Martha and Mickey is proof enough (complete character derailment of Martha made me ) Forget the border-line racism in pairing off the token black characters (especially since Martha was engaged to a white peditrician before that and this implies that she'd rather run awound getting shot at than either work with UNIT or be a doctor... and discounts her appearance in The Sontoran 2 parter where she actively avoids using a gun because she wants to be more like the Doctor... )

The Sarah Jane Adventures reference with SJM and her son was a nod to them - but also a nod to another show he'd created and was running. Acceptable in a way, overdone and overblown. Of all of them this was the one I actually liked.

The Captain Jack part... terriblly self serving. The song being sung "The Devil in Me" form "Daleks of Manhattan" (season 3), the Addipose from season 4, Allonso from Christmas Special "Voyage of the Damned," and more that I'm missing I'm sure - all nods to RTD era episodes. Not characters... easter eggs about how great RTD's era was. Also when taken in context (this happens after Season 3 of Torchwood) it derails Captain Jack's plight soooooooooo much.

Spoiler: Major Curliers for Torchwood Season 3: Children of the Earth

Show

Jack's beyond depressed... beyond the depths of depression the Doctor is in. He's abandoned hope not just for himself but for the entire human race. The government was going to hand over 10% of the children of the earth to become drugs for the 456 - his bravado in trying to be the Doctor got Ianto killed... and to save the day he ultimately had to murder his own grandson.

We're suppose to accept the doctor saves him from that by giving him a new boyfriend? No.

And the Rose bit... By that point I was sick and tired of the character Rose. She was interesting when she was the actual companion. I got more and more angry with RTD's obsession with Rose through Martha's run because I liked Martha so much more and she never got to just be ... she also had to live in comparison. In Donna's run I was just tired of it - I thoguht we'd finally put Rose away. This though, this made some sense and it was a nice touch. Rose when she's just an ordinary person is fine. This was fitting.

The lottery ticket was great, very Tennent doctor.

"I don't want to go." Still very tennent doctor. I agree it was probably a bit mean spirited all things considered, but it was far more RTD's self loving montage of how awesome he was (while at the same time undercutting everything he'd done to make those characters/events/places awesome) which made that finale so agrivating.

I had good simple fun with the End of Time story. The master was not nearly as good as he was in Season 3, but still fun. Timothy Dalton (James Bond) as a timelord was hilarious just for the meta-humor of it (I realy want Moffat to bring him back only to have him get injured and regenerate into Piers Brosnan.)

That finale was just so blatantly self serving (on the creator's part) that it made me very happy to know RTD was leaving.

Season 5 I was a little worried that Moffat wouldn't be able to deliver the silly side of who - and he proved me wrong showing he was better at every part of Who than RTD. that doesn't make him perfect though. If season 6 had been first I might not have kept watching (River's plot was just bad).

RTD proved in Torchwood 3: Children of the Earth, and in episodes like Midnight that he is a very competent writer/show runner. He did amazing work when he really tried, and he did amazingly fun camp too... but he only did those things when he made his focus doing the show right. When he focused on making himself look good - he failed miserably.