Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[Platinius]

The Blood Angels were almost wiped out? How? By whom? I mean, Dante is one of the best leaders and tacticians in the galaxy. What ridiculously overwhelming force could damage his Chapter like that?

[Lix Lorn]

In Space Hulk. Several canons ago.

[Brother Oni]

Back in the Realms of Chaos, there was a plot hook that if the emperor were allowed to die... he'd probably be rapidly reborn and fix everything again.

Weren't the Sensei retconned to be a Tzeentchian plot?

The Blood Angels were almost wiped out? How? By whom? I mean, Dante is one of the best leaders and tacticians in the galaxy. What ridiculously overwhelming force could damage his Chapter like that?

Given it was from Space Hulk, bucket loads of 'stealers in CQB conditions.

I told you it was questionable.

In Space Hulk. Several canons ago.

The most recent version of Space Hulk was 2009, making it 5th Edition, so only one canon ago.
I don't think that hulk had any hybrids so no cannons of the other variety either.

First Edition had an AAR which wasn't quite as silly (it was the entirety of the First Company instead), although the Blood Angels did get their arses kicked: 2 officers KIA, 2 MIA presumed dead, 8 marines KIA, 28 MIA and presumed dead and only 12 uninjured marines were left by the time they decided to withdraw.
The last assault had the marines throw everything into it to fend it off (support staff, all of the ship's non-essential personnel and 20 heavily wounded marines).

[Lix Lorn]

Weren't the Sensei retconned to be a Tzeentchian plot?

Seems likely. They're way too hopeful for warhammer.

[Cheesegear]

Weren't the Sensei retconned to be a Tzeentchian plot?

Illuminati and Sensei Knights don't really exist post-3rd Ed. And the Ordo Hydra is completely different to what it was originally.

Since it was Ian Watson who wrote all that, it isn't really retconned, since it was planned from the beginning, and, that yes, it did turn out to be a Tzeentchian plot in the end (with Lexandro blowing Jaq's brain case all over the floor and walls). The Ordo Hydra (Hydra Dominatus!) was then retconned in 3rd Ed. (...?) to be part of the Alpha Legion, and we don't talk about The Inquisition War anymore because it will give the kids nightmares.

Currently though, I'm fairly certain that the 'Sensei' and 'Illuminati' have been retconned into the Perpetuals and The Cabal.

[Artanis]

I don't know if it's still current fluff, but the old Tau codex stated outright that the Tau fortified the Third Sphere expansions so extensively that the Imperium would need to essentially strip the entire Segmentum's defenders to the bone to have enough forces to retake it. The core advantage of the Tau have always been having absolutely obscene force densities by the standards of the setting; the core of their Empire is in one of the most densely packed star clusters in the entire galaxy, and the Tau inhabit nearly every single one of those star systems to some degree. It means that relative to their territory they have by far the most powerful military of anyone, which makes attacking them a painful proposition. There's no doubt the Imperium could wipe them off the map if they dedicated enough resources to it, but the old implication was that doing so would mean weakening themselves to the point of assuring their own destruction.

This is only because the Imperium insists on fighting on the ground. If they decided just to fly in and start carpet-nuking planets from orbit, they could very well destroy half the Tau Empire without too much trouble

[Guancyto]

So just reading through bits and pieces for giggles and under 'teamups to beat down some Tyranids' was...

Daemons/Grey Knights (Codex: Grey Knights, page 17, 'The Pandemonium of Sondheim V')

*spittake*

How did this happen?

[The Glyphstone]

So just reading through bits and pieces for giggles and under 'teamups to beat down some Tyranids' was...



*spittake*

How did this happen?

Dunno. I looked the place up on Lexicanum, and it sounds more like a 3-way war between GKs, Daemons, and Tyranids, then any sort of actual team-up.


Then again, it was apparently WardKnights. So bro-fisting demon lords and shooting Hive Tyrants is not unthinkable.

[comicshorse]

Currently though, I'm fairly certain that the 'Sensei' and 'Illuminati' have been retconned into the Perpetuals and The Cabal.

I hadn't considered that but I can see it now

Then again, it was apparently WardKnights. So bro-fisting demon lords and shooting Hive Tyrants is not unthinkable.

Er...what ?

[Winterwind]

*spittake*

How did this happen?

Short version: Some world is hit by a Tyranid hive fleet in the exact same moment as it happens to be undergoing the transformation into a daemon world. Somewhere on that planet is a temple with a powerful Chaos artefact that the Grey Knights decide to grab, so that Chaos cannot use it again; however, that temple is in a region already completely taken over by the Tyranids. The Grey Knights go in anyway, manage to reach the artefact, but when they try to leave with it, they find themselves facing overwhelming Tyranid hordes. However, the artefact's removal from the temple drives the daemons so mad that they attack this location with fury; the Grey Knights use the ensuing battle between the Tyranids and the daemons to escape, Exterminatus, the end.

Er...what ?

The Grey Knights codex was written by Matt Ward, who is rather controversial amongst 40k fans. It has become rather memetic on the Internet to hate him and pretty much assume that he and everything he has ever written is Satan.

[The Glyphstone]

The Grey Knights codex was written by Matt Ward, who is rather controversial amongst 40k fans. It has become rather memetic on the Internet to hate him and pretty much assume that he and everything he has ever written is Satan.

The man did write a story where Grey Knights decide to butcher a Soriatas convent and coat their armor in the slaughtered sisters' faith-infused blood as protection against demons while retrieving an artifact. The hatred is not exactly undeserved in some cases, particularly those related to Grey Knights.

(he also wrote the NewCrons, who I love unconditionally, and he didn't ruin the Ultramarines any worse than they already were.)

[comicshorse]

The Grey Knights codex was written by Matt Ward, who is rather controversial amongst 40k fans. It has become rather memetic on the Internet to hate him and pretty much assume that he and everything he has ever written is Satan.

Ah I understand now. I shall start to hate him immediately

[Winterwind]

The man did write a story where Grey Knights decide to butcher a Soriatas convent and coat their armor in the slaughtered sisters' faith-infused blood as protection against demons while retrieving an artifact. The hatred is not exactly undeserved in some cases, particularly those related to Grey Knights.

And yet I wonder whether "armour coated in the blood of martyrs, if necessary sacrificed for that very cause" would have been all that much out of place in older 40k publishings. It seems just about on par with the old level of grimdark; I think it's the overall grimdarkness being somewhat dialed down in newer works (or at least, I get the overall impression that it is) making it stand out more, while at the same associating the Grey Knights, who up till then seem to have been pretty much the one unquestionably Good faction in the setting, with the usual grimdarkness, that made this so unpalatable to so many (and after that, meme took over).

(he also wrote the NewCrons, who I love unconditionally, and he didn't ruin the Ultramarines any worse than they already were.)

Heh. Ironically enough, it's the changes to Necrons that I lament myself; I don't hate Ward for them, because I understand the reasoning behind them and know that many people prefer the new fluff, but the sheer Lovecraftian horror of the old Necrons was some of my most favourite fluff in the setting. That Eldar prophecy, the meeting of that Mechanicum adept with Corteswain, and that Eldar farseer's vision of the Necron-dominated future are all three amongst my most favourite 40k writings, period.

(Though to be fair, part of that has to be attributed to the fact that I just don't like the way newer codizes are structured. Whoever decided that all of those fascinating stories ranging between half a page and two pages, that used to make up the majority of a codex, need to be cut out, truly deserves to live in the 41st millennium themselves. )

[The Glyphstone]

And yet I wonder whether "armour coated in the blood of martyrs, if necessary sacrificed for that very cause" would have been all that much out of place in older 40k publishings. It seems just about on par with the old level of grimdark; I think it's the overall grimdarkness being somewhat dialed down in newer works (or at least, I get the overall impression that it is) making it stand out more, while at the same associating the Grey Knights, who up till then seem to have been pretty much the one unquestionably Good faction in the setting, with the usual grimdarkness, that made this so unpalatable to so many (and after that, meme took over).

1d4Chan makes a good argument for this very thing, actually, on the Khornate Knights page (ironic considering how much of the Wardhate comes from /tg/. The Grey Knights already perform lots of sacrifices - every one of their psycannon bolts is infused with a man's life, and each of their Aegis wards consumes the minds of a dozen psykers. And Sisters have a huge martyrdom thing going on, so they might have agreed to become paint if it was necessary. But all the GK fluff indicated their armor was 100% chaos-proof already, and the story doesn't even hint at the deaths being willing, so it was just horribly out of character/setting for basically everyone involved. Good concept, terrible execution.

[bluntpencil]

1d4Chan makes a good argument for this very thing, actually, on the Khornate Knights page (ironic considering how much of the Wardhate comes from /tg/. The Grey Knights already perform lots of sacrifices - every one of their psycannon bolts is infused with a man's life, and each of their Aegis wards consumes the minds of a dozen psykers. And Sisters have a huge martyrdom thing going on, so they might have agreed to become paint if it was necessary. But all the GK fluff indicated their armor was 100% chaos-proof already, and the story doesn't even hint at the deaths being willing, so it was just horribly out of character/setting for basically everyone involved. Good concept, terrible execution.

Add in the fact, that with Apothecaries, they could have literally had taken blood from the Sisters non-violently, and kept them alive, taking more every day, after some large, healthy meals to replenish lost blood.

They could have whole convents of blood donors, for crying out loud.

[Guancyto]

Now that's just crazy talk.

That'd be like rotating out the psykers they have with the Emprah so you don't lose a thousand of them every day.

Sustainable policy has no place in grimdarksville!

Short version: Some world is hit by a Tyranid hive fleet in the exact same moment as it happens to be undergoing the transformation into a daemon world. Somewhere on that planet is a temple with a powerful Chaos artefact that the Grey Knights decide to grab, so that Chaos cannot use it again; however, that temple is in a region already completely taken over by the Tyranids. The Grey Knights go in anyway, manage to reach the artefact, but when they try to leave with it, they find themselves facing overwhelming Tyranid hordes. However, the artefact's removal from the temple drives the daemons so mad that they attack this location with fury; the Grey Knights use the ensuing battle between the Tyranids and the daemons to escape, Exterminatus, the end.

Ah! Good good. That's way more in line with... basically everything I've ever heard.

[bluntpencil]

Now that's just crazy talk.

That'd be like rotating out the psykers they have with the Emprah so you don't lose a thousand of them every day.

Sustainable policy has no place in grimdarksville!

I think souls work differently from blood, but you do have a fair point!

[Ceiling_Squid]

Heh. Ironically enough, it's the changes to Necrons that I lament myself; I don't hate Ward for them, because I understand the reasoning behind them and know that many people prefer the new fluff, but the sheer Lovecraftian horror of the old Necrons was some of my most favourite fluff in the setting. That Eldar prophecy, the meeting of that Mechanicum adept with Corteswain, and that Eldar farseer's vision of the Necron-dominated future are all three amongst my most favourite 40k writings, period.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I like certain elements of the Newcrons, but I also liked the Oldcrons a lot more. Yeah, it became a bit of a running joke in the fandom that "a C'tan did it!" was the reasoning behind everything for a while, but their response of gutting the C'tan entirely as a threat is going way too far. All they had to do was dial them back a bit.

I like a little Lovecraftian, nihilistic horror in my 40k, something that isn't just Chaos. I only hope they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Now, I have not personally read the Newcron codex (I've heard everything about it second-hand, largely), but correct me if I'm wrong: does the new Codex preclude the existence of old-style Necrons, as well as the C'tan in general? I could easily see tomb worlds full of old-style Necrons who have not awoken to sentience. Would be awesome to see them aligned with C'tan who have not yet been accounted for (you know the ones!)

Last I heard, the Nightbringer and the Deciever were broken into shards by their former slaves (who are now sentient). Does that leave the Outsider and the Void Dragon still out-and-about?

The Void Dragon features heavily in my headcanon ideas of how the setting could actually see some development, especially with the potential for parts of the Mechanicus going evil from the inside out. I really hope they actually do something with that dormant plot hook.

[Winterwind]

1d4Chan makes a good argument for this very thing, actually, on the Khornate Knights page (ironic considering how much of the Wardhate comes from /tg/. The Grey Knights already perform lots of sacrifices - every one of their psycannon bolts is infused with a man's life, and each of their Aegis wards consumes the minds of a dozen psykers. And Sisters have a huge martyrdom thing going on, so they might have agreed to become paint if it was necessary. But all the GK fluff indicated their armor was 100% chaos-proof already, and the story doesn't even hint at the deaths being willing, so it was just horribly out of character/setting for basically everyone involved. Good concept, terrible execution.

Agreed. "Good concept, execution ranging from somewhat flawed to downright terrible" can, I think, pretty much be applied to everything the community finds questionable about Ward's work.

Now, I have not personally read the Newcron codex (I've heard everything about it second-hand, largely), but correct me if I'm wrong: does the new Codex preclude the existence of old-style Necrons, as well as the C'tan in general? I could easily see tomb worlds full of old-style Necrons who have not awoken to sentience. Would be awesome to see them aligned with C'tan who have not yet been accounted for (you know the ones!)

Last I heard, the Nightbringer and the Deciever were broken into shards by their former slaves (who are now sentient). Does that leave the Outsider and the Void Dragon still out-and-about?

The Codex pretty much reads like all C'tan have been broken into shards and imprisoned; as such, it also precludes the existence of old-style Necrons at least in the sense that Necrons, without exception, do not serve the C'tan anymore in the new fluff, rather the other way around. And the codex doesn't really talk about the individual C'tan all that much, anyhow; it mentions some of them by name, but that's pretty much it.

I have heard that Imperial Armour 12: The Fall of Orpheus has Necrons that very much still act like a terrifying, utterly alien threat, rather than "Tomb Kings in Space" (mostly because it's a whole dynasty afflicted with the Flayed One virus), but I haven't read it myself, so cannot comment on that.

In Apocalypse, there is something called "Transcendent C'tan", which are C'tan shards made up of hundreds of regular shards, thus much more powerful than regular C'tan, and which are so powerful the usual tesseract labyrinth prisons cannot hold them; the Necrons are extremely careful about using those, due to how dangerous and difficult to control they are, and they pretty much go desperate if one of those shards is destroyed (as it means the C'tan essence is released, which, by my understanding, would mean that if it happens frequently enough, the C'tan might be reborn), but that's pretty much the only thing that presents any chance for C'tan being more than slaves to the Necrons, bereft of their usual personality, and even that requires some reading between the lines.

[The Glyphstone]

The Flayed One virus turns Necrons into mindless mad killers.

Destroyers are Necrons who have joined nihilistic death cults and seek the extermination of all biological life.

Between the two, you can make a fair approximation of 'oldcrons' in attitude towards other races.

[DaedalusMkV]

This is only because the Imperium insists on fighting on the ground. If they decided just to fly in and start carpet-nuking planets from orbit, they could very well destroy half the Tau Empire without too much trouble

Sort of. A little. See, the thing about the Tau is that while their individual starships can't come close to taking on their Imperial counterparts (their best frontline ship, the Hero class, is canonically slightly inferior to a Lunar-class Cruiser), they have a lot of ships per inhabited system, and have a nasty habit of seeding their major Septs with heavy concentrations of orbital fortresses. Attacking the Tau in space sucks something fierce, even if all you're doing is calling Exterminatus and running away. On the other hand, the Tau have minimal ability to project power into the Imperium with their space forces, since most of their real combat power is tied up in said orbital units and hefty defensive fleets.

Really, it's just not worth it for the Imperium to mount the kind of crusade necessary to wipe out the Tau at the current point in time, which is why the Tau still exist. The Imperium's best response is probably just to heavily fortify their own worlds on the Damocles Gulf and turn the whole place into a huge stalemate. Or, you know, be reasonable and tag-team with the only sane species in the galaxy to wipe out the Nids, Necrons and Chaos, then turn all your resources to fighting the Tau if necessary at that point. But, eh, no reason to expect the Imperium to make the smart call when it comes to tolerating the Alien to live, even temporarily.

[Brother Oni]

On the other hand, the Tau have minimal ability to project power into the Imperium with their space forces, since most of their real combat power is tied up in said orbital units and hefty defensive fleets.

The lack of any FTL drive or comms also puts a hard limit on the upper size of their empire.

[lord_khaine]

Now, I have not personally read the Newcron codex (I've heard everything about it second-hand, largely), but correct me if I'm wrong: does the new Codex preclude the existence of old-style Necrons, as well as the C'tan in general? I could easily see tomb worlds full of old-style Necrons who have not awoken to sentience. Would be awesome to see them aligned with C'tan who have not yet been accounted for (you know the ones!)

The codex actually directly confirms the existance of oldcrons, and explains the previous behavior of necrons as it just being people running across these oldcrons.

You see.. on one of their tomb worlds the automated repair system accidentially overwrote the personality engrams of all the necrons resting there, before it then began a cycle of mindless expansion.

[The Glyphstone]

The codex actually directly confirms the existance of oldcrons, and explains the previous behavior of necrons as it just being people running across these oldcrons.

You see.. on one of their tomb worlds the automated repair system accidentially overwrote the personality engrams of all the necrons resting there, before it then began a cycle of mindless expansion.

I still pray for Sandy Mitchell to write at least one more Cain Archives book where Cain encounters the Newcrons, and flips out because of his Necron phobia even before they start talking to him.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The lack of any FTL drive or comms also puts a hard limit on the upper size of their empire.

In a reasonable universe, light-lag alone would doom the Tau from being able to effectively fight as a unit at void-distances.

Fortunately for them, they live in the 40k-verse

[Artanis]

Sort of. A little. See, the thing about the Tau is that while their individual starships can't come close to taking on their Imperial counterparts (their best frontline ship, the Hero class, is canonically slightly inferior to a Lunar-class Cruiser), they have a lot of ships per inhabited system, and have a nasty habit of seeding their major Septs with heavy concentrations of orbital fortresses. Attacking the Tau in space sucks something fierce, even if all you're doing is calling Exterminatus and running away. On the other hand, the Tau have minimal ability to project power into the Imperium with their space forces, since most of their real combat power is tied up in said orbital units and hefty defensive fleets.

Really, it's just not worth it for the Imperium to mount the kind of crusade necessary to wipe out the Tau at the current point in time, which is why the Tau still exist. The Imperium's best response is probably just to heavily fortify their own worlds on the Damocles Gulf and turn the whole place into a huge stalemate. Or, you know, be reasonable and tag-team with the only sane species in the galaxy to wipe out the Nids, Necrons and Chaos, then turn all your resources to fighting the Tau if necessary at that point. But, eh, no reason to expect the Imperium to make the smart call when it comes to tolerating the Alien to live, even temporarily.

Like Brother_Oni alluded to, the Tau have a massive disadvantage in terms of strategic maneuvering. The Tau have no Astropaths, meaning they have to use courier ships for interstellar communication, and Imperial Warp drives can quite literally run circles around the Tau FTL even outside the Astronomicon's range.

So while the Tau can more or less go toe-to-toe with an equivalent Imperial force in a straight-up fight, the Imperium doesn't have to take that fight if they don't want to. Warp in, see what defenses are in the system, and then decide whether to warp out or warm up the Cyclonic Torpedoes based on what the Tau have there. If there's enough Tau ships to stop a Crusade-caliber fleet, then you know there's a ton of Tau ships that won't beat said Crusade fleet to its next target.

So if all the Imperium did was send in a Battlefleet to go around dropping Exterminatus on un- or under-defended worlds then booking it before the Tau even know where they are, the Imperium would do a LOT of damage before the Tau could put up a real defense.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So while the Tau can more or less go toe-to-toe with an equivalent Imperial force in a straight-up fight, the Imperium doesn't have to take that fight if they don't want to. Warp in, see what defenses are in the system, and then decide whether to warp out or warm up the Cyclonic Torpedoes based on what the Tau have there. If there's enough Tau ships to stop a Crusade-caliber fleet, then you know there's a ton of Tau ships that won't beat said Crusade fleet to its next target.

So if all the Imperium did was send in a Battlefleet to go around dropping Exterminatus on un- or under-defended worlds then booking it before the Tau even know where they are, the Imperium would do a LOT of damage before the Tau could put up a real defense.

The problem is that the Warp is nowhere near this reliable. We're not talking about Microjumps from an Elizabeth Moon book; each one seems roughly as chancy as sailing the seas of the 15th Century. "Warping Out" is not fast enough to permit quick scouting before choosing another target nor so safe that you want to make more Jumps than you absolutely have to.

That said, FTL Comms are nearly as useful a Force Multiplier when facing an opposing fleet. Unless they defense decides to huddle up within a light-second of their planet and act as a shooting gallery for maneuverable ships

[The Glyphstone]

Though Astropaths aren't very reliable communication either. Less an FTL radio, more FTL semaphore towers.

[Artanis]

The problem is that the Warp is nowhere near this reliable. We're not talking about Microjumps from an Elizabeth Moon book; each one seems roughly as chancy as sailing the seas of the 15th Century. "Warping Out" is not fast enough to permit quick scouting before choosing another target nor so safe that you want to make more Jumps than you absolutely have to.

I wasn't really thinking in terms of microjumps around a system. They have to jump in to get to the system in the first place, and they eventually have to jump out when their job there is done. So I was thinking more in terms of a kill-fleet instead of an invasion fleet, going in to a system - which they would anyways - and then choosing a course of action that does not involve babysitting twenty regiments' worth of troops, supplies, and materiel along the way.

[Wraith]

But all the GK fluff indicated their armor was 100% chaos-proof already, and the story doesn't even hint at the deaths being willing, so it was just horribly out of character/setting for basically everyone involved. Good concept, terrible execution.

The worst part about it, for me at least, was that this story seems to suggest that the Grey Knights are Sorcerers as well as Psykers - using ritualistic means instead of their own inherent psy-abilities to control the powers of the warp is pretty much the definition of 'sorcery'.

Expending human lives to further the goals of the Imperium, that I can accept - I don't think that anyone would disagree that this is one of THE defining themes of the 40k setting.
That the Grey Knights - Imperial soldiers, Space Marines - practice sorcery and are still considered Loyalist, let alone as the pinnacle of human purity? That goes against everything I've ever heard or read on the matter.

Add in the fact, that with Apothecaries, they could have literally had taken blood from the Sisters non-violently, and kept them alive, taking more every day, after some large, healthy meals to replenish lost blood.

In the original story the Grey Knights were much depleted - it's unknown as to whether they had an Apothecary present. Given that they were in Power Armour, and GK Apothecaries are only ever Paladins, apparently, probably not.

Also, that would be the nice, sensible thing to do. Try to print it in a GW book, and the ink supply would probably have caught fire.

Ah! Good good. That's way more in line with... basically everything I've ever heard.

Again, I stress that I said "combined efforts", not that "they were working together". It's about as close to the idea of them being Allies as one can get, which is damning with faint praise and no mistake