Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[Ceiling_Squid]

I remember seeing something about a non-Astartes using a Space Marine's weapons being heresy or some similar crime, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. I know they're locked so non-Astartes can't use them anyway, but is there anything for people who used hacked ones?

Dark Heresy has the answer to this question!

(Or rather, Fantasy Flight Games fluff via the WH40k TTRPG, but that's got GW's seal of approval. About Black Library level of canon, at least).

The RPG at least makes a distinction between astartes-caliber shells and "mortal" scale bolters, which in-and-of itself is debatable fluff, but it comes up from time to time depending on the writer. Working off the fluff assumptions of the RPG, it is a form of heresy to take the armaments of the nigh-Angelic Astartes into mortal hands.

Space Marine armaments are sacred and protected. I do not recall much regarding the actual use of space-marine sized armaments by non-Astartes (chances are, a non power-armored human couldn't even use them effectively without injury). But there IS a little something called an Angelus-pattern Bolt Carbine, which is explicitly illegal (if not heretical). As per the item description, there's a little bit of telling fluff regarding Astartes weapons.

Each bolt shell destined for use by the Astartes is stamped with the holy Aquila and a serial number. These shells are treated with great reverence by the Tech-Priesthood. Naturally, to subvert their intended destination is heretical.

However, a rare few Astartes-caliber shells somehow manage to escape the production line and make their way onto the black market. These shells have NOT been stamped with the Aquila or their intended serial number, and are known colloquially as "blind" shells. Possessing them is extremely illegal.

Because Astartes-scale bolt weaponry is even harder to obtain and impractical to use, enterprising types have designed the Angelus-pattern Bolt Carbine. This weapon is designed for use by ordinary human hands, but accepts the larger Astartes-caliber "blind" shells, should one obtain this rare and expensive ammunition on the black market. This carbine can accept three shells, loaded end-to-end.

Mind you, this fluff is restricted primarily to the DH setting (the Calixis Sector), but at least it sets precedent! Hope that helps.

[Cheesegear]

That's way too much depth for so simple a problem. You're not a Space Marine. Why do you even have an Astartes weapon in the first place?
1. You obtained it illegally.
2. A Marine is dead and you've looted him.

Both raise questions because having an Astartes weapon in the first place is illegal. Heresy or not.

[Neon Knight]

On the Astartes Weapon size topic, how do Devastator Heavy Bolters stack up against IG HMG style Heavy Bolters, and those mounted on vehicles? Are that all roughly equivalent to one another, or is there no data/impressions in that as all?

[houlio]

On the Astartes Weapon size topic, how do Devastator Heavy Bolters stack up against IG HMG style Heavy Bolters, and those mounted on vehicles? Are that all roughly equivalent to one another, or is there no data/impressions in that as all?

I believe in the tabletop, they all fire the same number of shots at the same strength and armor penetration rating. Often though vehicle mounted heavy bolters are twin-linked (which means instead of shooting double, it is more likely to hit), and handheld ones never are as far as I know.

[Cheesegear]

On the Astartes Weapon size topic, how do Devastator Heavy Bolters stack up against IG HMG style Heavy Bolters

I believe in the tabletop

First up, the tabletop mechanics are the worst metric you can use when talking about Fluff. Second - and I really can't believe that I, nor anybody else has thought of it - is that sizes are all in the RPG.

A Boltgun is 7kgs.
An Astartes Boltgun is 18kgs and does twice the damage.

Astartes weapons are literally twice the size of regular weapons! The thought of a 20 kilo weapon with recoil makes my shoulder hurt just thinking about it.

A regular Heavy Bolter is 40kgs.
An Astartes Heavy Bolter is 68kgs. But, that's including the ammo feed. And it has slightly better range.

So, a Heavy Bolter being 40kgs, in addition to the ammo feed, and regular gear (Flakk Jacket, Lasgun), this is why the Guard walk around with two people to maneuver a single Heavy Bolter.

Space Marines can quite happily carry 80kgs or more, and they ignore their armour's weight.

[Wraith]

If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't join the Guard.

Ever seen the TV show Sharpe, starring Sean "Boromir" Bean?

If you'd like to know more about it (or just see a young and rakish Sean Bean spending a lot of time with his shirt off, I'm not going to judge) then click here, but the gist is that Sharpe is a soldier in early 19th century Europe, fighting Napoleonic forces for Britain.

In one episode, it shows the (historically quite accurate) recruitment process for the British army; a Sergeant rolls up into a village and puts on what can only be described as a pantomime - banging a drum, telling silly stories, larking about and generally making all sorts of crazy and unrealistic promises about how you'll be treated if you join his army. As much food as you can eat in two meals for breakfast, a cask of ale every time you want a drink, and a comfy bed of feather the size of a field to sleep on a night, and pay enough that you'll never go wanting for anything ever again.

Surprisingly, some of the new recruits are shocked and amazed when the first thing he does after they sign up is bawl them into line, march them 40 miles and cuff them across the back of the head every so often for so much as looking sideways while they walk.

This is more or less how I think of recruitment for the Imperial Guard, save for replacing "King" with "Emperor".

[Borgh]

Those would be the lucky ones I guess.
Born in Airstriponeium hive between 14 and 25 years ago? Nice of you to sign up.
Born to Guard parents? yes your parents signed you up, how nice of them.
Went for a drink in the wrong bar? Ugh your head feels like you are going to warp translation.
Ah the PDF, nice cushy job on your safe planet away from the front? Its Tithe time! Enjoy the Tyranids!

[hamishspence]

Ever seen the TV show Sharpe, starring Sean "Boromir" Bean?

If you'd like to know more about it (or just see a young and rakish Sean Bean spending a lot of time with his shirt off, I'm not going to judge) then click here, but the gist is that Sharpe is a soldier in early 19th century Europe, fighting Napoleonic forces for Britain.

In one episode, it shows the (historically quite accurate) recruitment process for the British army; a Sergeant rolls up into a village and puts on what can only be described as a pantomime - banging a drum, telling silly stories, larking about and generally making all sorts of crazy and unrealistic promises about how you'll be treated if you join his army. As much food as you can eat in two meals for breakfast, a cask of ale every time you want a drink, and a comfy bed of feather the size of a field to sleep on a night, and pay enough that you'll never go wanting for anything ever again.

Surprisingly, some of the new recruits are shocked and amazed when the first thing he does after they sign up is bawl them into line, march them 40 miles and cuff them across the back of the head every so often for so much as looking sideways while they walk.

This is more or less how I think of recruitment for the Imperial Guard, save for replacing "King" with "Emperor".

Gaunt's Ghosts is probably closer to "Sharpe In Space" than the Ciaphas Cain series is, at least.

[LeSwordfish]

Those would be the lucky ones I guess.
Born in Airstriponeium hive between 14 and 25 years ago? Nice of you to sign up.
Born to Guard parents? yes your parents signed you up, how nice of them.
Went for a drink in the wrong bar? Ugh your head feels like you are going to warp translation.
Ah the PDF, nice cushy job on your safe planet away from the front? Its Tithe time! Enjoy the Tyranids!

Born to wealthy parents? You're company commander! The orks are at the gates: what do we do now, sir?

[Brother Oni]

Gaunt's Ghosts is probably closer to "Sharpe In Space" than the Ciaphas Cain series is, at least.

A lot closer considering the baggage train that the Tanith First and Only take with them.

The Valhallan 594th operate much more like a modern military unit.

[Lix Lorn]

Gaunt's Ghosts is probably closer to "Sharpe In Space" than the Ciaphas Cain series is, at least.

I believe Abnett mentioned this, I don't remember if he said it was a deliberate influence or claimed it was an accident.

Or I could be entirely misremembering.

[13_CBS]

Quick question: what are the Iron Hands like in terms of personality? All.I really know is that they despise weakness, and that's not much to go on...

[Platinius]

They like cybernetics and hate being meatbags, my guess is they are rather cold and very calculating. I read somewhere that they are incredibly stubborn even by SM standards, but please don't quote me on that.

[Wraith]

According to the Deathwatch First Founding rulebook, the Iron Hands are a bitter, resentful and self-loathing Chapter. They despise weakness in all it's forms, and ritually mutilate themselves in a vain attempt to purge perceived failings from themselves by literally removing it as though it were a cancer within them.

Anger is their defining characteristic; not the same furious rage exhibited by the Black Templars or the fanatical blood-lust of the Flesh Tearers, but the dark, burning frustration and impotence that comes from spending 10,000 years trying to atone for the death of their Primarch, the wounding of the Emperor and the fall of the Imperium and knowing that they will never, ever succeed.

Spoiler

Show

Central to the unique identity of the Iron Hands is their belief that the flesh is inherently weak; subject to decay and temptation, it is a frailty to be purged to the fullest extent. This belief is likely to be rooted in the Chapter’s experience of the Horus Heresy, but the character of the peoples of Medusa is undoubtedly a contributing factor.
Following the loss of their Primarch in the Istvaan V massacre the surviving members of the Legion returned to their home world and fanned the embers of a hatred that would endure for ten thousand years. Isolating themselves from many of their fellow Space Marines, the Iron Hands became bitter recluses, cleaving to their anger as the only constant in a universe of weakness and insanity. It soon came to pass that none were immune from their ire. The traitors had renounced their oaths and turned against their brothers, but the loyalists had allowed it to happen, and the Emperor had fallen.
The Iron Hands harboured a special resentment for the other loyal Legions present at Istvaan V. They believe that had the Legions been sufficiently strong and fought on instead of retreating, their Primarch would not have been lost, the traitors would have been defeated, and the Heresy would have been crushed.

The Iron Hands’ abhorrence of weakness is not limited to the moral however, for they hold that the body itself, even that of a genetically enhanced Space Marine of the Adeptus Astartes, is frail and impermanent and subject to sickness and aging. The Iron Hands are driven to replace the weak biological matter all men are born into with cold, unyielding iron, a practise that begins when a neophyte is initiated into the Chapter as a full Battle-Brother. The initiate’s left hand is removed and replaced with a bionic version in a ritual inspired by a tale of the Primarch when his own hands were encased in living metal following a battle with a great metal serpent. Some initiates sever their own hand during the ritual, while others plunge it into the searing hot lava flowing from the mountains of Medusa, bearing the pain and transforming it to hate.
Throughout an Iron Hand’s lifetime, he grows ever more bitter towards his foes and ever more resentful of his own flesh. He appears to come to hate himself, or his biological form at least, like a man forcibly garbed in filth-encrusted rags. More of his organs and limbs are replaced with bionic augmetics, each inherently superior to the original. To some outsiders, this is a supreme blasphemy, for many of the organs eventually discarded are those that make a Space Marine what he is, and which are the direct inheritance of the Emperor and the Primarch. Nevertheless, a Battle-Brother of the Iron Hands that has reached several centuries of service is likely to appear almost entirely mechanical, every visible scrap of flesh replaced with gleaming, oiled and burnished steel. A few centuries more and the warrior’s biological body might consist of little more than his brain and his major organs. It is said that some Iron Hands, those that survive the rigours of war and their own hate-fuelled self-mutilation, are no more than a brain encased in a ceramite shell.

Because of this drive, many of the Chapter’s leaders are entombed within the form of a Dreadnought. These form the Chapter Council, for the Iron Hands have no individual Chapter Master. Each company is an all-but independent body called a Clan Company, which maintains its own mobile Fortress-Monastery that trawls the endless wastes of Medusa guarding against weakness in the people and recruiting the strongest into its ranks. Some claim that the Chapter’s hatred of the flesh represents the manifestation of a corruption in its gene seed, and certainly the Iron Hands Legion sired only two known Successor Chapters. Whatever the cause, the Iron Hands’ resolution and grim determination are beyond doubt, as many of the Imperium’s enemies have discovered.

[Lix Lorn]

According to the Deathwatch First Founding rulebook, the Iron Hands are a bitter, resentful and self-loathing Chapter. They despise weakness in all it's forms, and ritually mutilate themselves in a vain attempt to purge perceived failings from themselves by literally removing it as though it were a cancer within them.

Anger is their defining characteristic; not the same furious rage exhibited by the Black Templars or the fanatical blood-lust of the Flesh Tearers, but the dark, burning frustration and impotence that comes from spending 10,000 years trying to atone for the death of their Primarch, the wounding of the Emperor and the fall of the Imperium and knowing that they will never, ever succeed.

Spoiler

Show

Central to the unique identity of the Iron Hands is their belief that the flesh is inherently weak; subject to decay and temptation, it is a frailty to be purged to the fullest extent. This belief is likely to be rooted in the Chapter’s experience of the Horus Heresy, but the character of the peoples of Medusa is undoubtedly a contributing factor.
Following the loss of their Primarch in the Istvaan V massacre the surviving members of the Legion returned to their home world and fanned the embers of a hatred that would endure for ten thousand years. Isolating themselves from many of their fellow Space Marines, the Iron Hands became bitter recluses, cleaving to their anger as the only constant in a universe of weakness and insanity. It soon came to pass that none were immune from their ire. The traitors had renounced their oaths and turned against their brothers, but the loyalists had allowed it to happen, and the Emperor had fallen.
The Iron Hands harboured a special resentment for the other loyal Legions present at Istvaan V. They believe that had the Legions been sufficiently strong and fought on instead of retreating, their Primarch would not have been lost, the traitors would have been defeated, and the Heresy would have been crushed.

The Iron Hands’ abhorrence of weakness is not limited to the moral however, for they hold that the body itself, even that of a genetically enhanced Space Marine of the Adeptus Astartes, is frail and impermanent and subject to sickness and aging. The Iron Hands are driven to replace the weak biological matter all men are born into with cold, unyielding iron, a practise that begins when a neophyte is initiated into the Chapter as a full Battle-Brother. The initiate’s left hand is removed and replaced with a bionic version in a ritual inspired by a tale of the Primarch when his own hands were encased in living metal following a battle with a great metal serpent. Some initiates sever their own hand during the ritual, while others plunge it into the searing hot lava flowing from the mountains of Medusa, bearing the pain and transforming it to hate.
Throughout an Iron Hand’s lifetime, he grows ever more bitter towards his foes and ever more resentful of his own flesh. He appears to come to hate himself, or his biological form at least, like a man forcibly garbed in filth-encrusted rags. More of his organs and limbs are replaced with bionic augmetics, each inherently superior to the original. To some outsiders, this is a supreme blasphemy, for many of the organs eventually discarded are those that make a Space Marine what he is, and which are the direct inheritance of the Emperor and the Primarch. Nevertheless, a Battle-Brother of the Iron Hands that has reached several centuries of service is likely to appear almost entirely mechanical, every visible scrap of flesh replaced with gleaming, oiled and burnished steel. A few centuries more and the warrior’s biological body might consist of little more than his brain and his major organs. It is said that some Iron Hands, those that survive the rigours of war and their own hate-fuelled self-mutilation, are no more than a brain encased in a ceramite shell.

Because of this drive, many of the Chapter’s leaders are entombed within the form of a Dreadnought. These form the Chapter Council, for the Iron Hands have no individual Chapter Master. Each company is an all-but independent body called a Clan Company, which maintains its own mobile Fortress-Monastery that trawls the endless wastes of Medusa guarding against weakness in the people and recruiting the strongest into its ranks. Some claim that the Chapter’s hatred of the flesh represents the manifestation of a corruption in its gene seed, and certainly the Iron Hands Legion sired only two known Successor Chapters. Whatever the cause, the Iron Hands’ resolution and grim determination are beyond doubt, as many of the Imperium’s enemies have discovered.

...
Congratulations, you have made me like the Iron Hands a lot.

[Wraith]

Fine by me. I was playing an Iron Hands army way before it was cool/they were in a Codex

I don't promise to refrain from calling them Angsty and/or Emo Marines, however. I do that sometimes, when it amuses me.

[13_CBS]

*snip*

Interesting...

Were pre-Heresy Iron Hands noticeably different than 40k Iron Hands? "We lost our Primarch" stuff aside, of course.

[Grim Portent]

Interesting...

Were pre-Heresy Iron Hands noticeably different than 40k Iron Hands? "We lost our Primarch" stuff aside, of course.

I think they were meant to be tactical perfectionists, trying to make every move be as harmful to the enemy while causing the least casualties for themselves, while post-heresy they have a much more 'by any means, at any cost' thing going on.

[comicshorse]

The only thing I've seen on the Iron Hands pre-Heresy is from one of the short stories in 'The Primarchs'. It doesn't paint a nice picture of them, when engaged with two other Chapters in order to beat them to an objective their Primarch gives orders tp push on which will mean death for hundreds of Imperial Gaurd from exhaustion, thirst and leaving their wounded behind. Only one Iron Hand seems bothered by this.

[Cheesegear]

Were pre-Heresy Iron Hands noticeably different than 40k Iron Hands?

Yes. Pre-Heresy were against bodily modifications and against cybernetics. Ferrus was anti-cybernetics, so that was that. However, Ferrus dies, and the faction that is all for cutting off their own hands are all like "If the flesh is so strong, then how is Ferrus dead?" And then that Clan/House/Faction rose to prominance and now the Iron Hands have this pseudo-hate relationship with their own Primarch who was so weak in trusting Fulgrim, who was so weak in combat that he got killed and Ferrus so obviously sucks at being a Primarch he totally deserves to die. But he was their Primarch, and killing him just wont fly.

[comicshorse]

Yes. Pre-Heresy were against bodily modifications and against cybernetics. Ferrus was anti-cybernetics, so that was that. However, Ferrus dies, and the faction that is all for cutting off their own hands are all like "If the flesh is so strong, then how is Ferrus dead?" And then that Clan/House/Faction rose to prominance and now the Iron Hands have this pseudo-hate relationship with their own Primarch who was so weak in trusting Fulgrim, who was so weak in combat that he got killed and Ferrus so obviously sucks at being a Primarch he totally deserves to die. But he was their Primarch, and killing him just wont fly.

Well I've only got the story I mentioned above to draw on but that clearly has the Iron Hands obsessed with cybernetic replacements. It was part of the 'Horus Heresy' series but is pre-Manus dying

[Cheesegear]

Basically, with Ferrus, the Iron Hands functioned like proper Space Marines all unified under one commander. Without Manus, all the Clans decided that they hate each other. But, unlike Space Wolves, whose Wolf Lords are all best friends, the Iron-Fathers all hate each other, so now, the Iron Hands work like a modern day democracy where nothing changes and the status quo is god. Which means when the rest of the Imperium is all like "Yo, Iron Hands, come help us." the Iron Hands drag their feet, take a vote on it do some stupid stuff, and then a decade late get around to helping.

The above is hyperbole, sure. But, the Iron Hands are colossal a-holes. That, at least, is canon.

[13_CBS]

Yes. Pre-Heresy were against bodily modifications and against cybernetics. Ferrus was anti-cybernetics, so that was that. However, Ferrus dies, and the faction that is all for cutting off their own hands are all like "If the flesh is so strong, then how is Ferrus dead?" And then that Clan/House/Faction rose to prominance and now the Iron Hands have this pseudo-hate relationship with their own Primarch who was so weak in trusting Fulgrim, who was so weak in combat that he got killed and Ferrus so obviously sucks at being a Primarch he totally deserves to die. But he was their Primarch, and killing him just wont fly.

Is all of this from Fulgrim, by any chance?

[bluntpencil]

Also, the Chapter actually split in two later on, forming the Sons of Medusa.

[LansXero]

Loyalist Iron Warriors > Iron Hands

[hamishspence]

But, unlike Space Wolves, whose Wolf Lords are all best friends, the Iron-Fathers all hate each other, so now, the Iron Hands work like a modern day democracy where nothing changes and the status quo is god. Which means when the rest of the Imperium is all like "Yo, Iron Hands, come help us." the Iron Hands drag their feet, take a vote on it do some stupid stuff, and then a decade late get around to helping.

Wasn't the current head of the Iron Hands council exceptionally good at getting around this problem?

[Wraith]

Is all of this from Fulgrim, by any chance?

Fulgrim is probably your best source, since it's only 'main series' that book in which the Iron Hands appear (so far, anyway - presumably they'll reemerge at some point).

Were pre-Heresy Iron Hands noticeably different than 40k Iron Hands? "We lost our Primarch" stuff aside, of course.

What I got from Fulgrim is that the Iron Hands are a cross between the Emperor's Children and the Death Guard.

Like the EC's they strive for perfection in everything that they do, but unlike the EC's they want to do it with a craftman's mechanical precision rather than with a beautiful artist's flourish.
Like the Death Guard, they are dour, strict and stubborn about it but Ferrus Mannus is less aloof and nihilistic than Mortarion and his Legion - though somewhat cold and standoff-ish around outsiders, they allow close friendship with the Legions they know and trust.

There's a good analogy for this in the relationship between Ferrus and Fulgrim - Ferrus is brusk, workmanlike and all business, like a Master Craftsman overseeing a commission in his workshop, but he's overjoyed to see his brother again and happily embraces him without reserve or embarrassment at letting his guard down.

Pre-Heresy Iron Hands want to be the best. Not in the sense that they have the most accolades or medals, but just in having the self-contained satisfaction that they've done their job better than anyone else. It's a little bit like the Iron Warriors, but the difference is that the Iron Hands genuinely mean it, and don't just say it while secretly hoping that they'll be lauded anyway and habouring bitter resentment when that doesn't come.
Ferrus sets the good example for the attitude of his Legion, possibly more so than for any other Loyalists, which is why they go so wildly off track and plunge into self-destructive depression when he is betrayed and killed by the one closest to him.

[Cheesegear]

Ferrus sets the good example for the attitude of his Legion, possibly more so than for any other Loyalists

Ferrus also happens to be one of the 'perfect Primarchs'. Guilliman says there are four Primarchs who were made exactly as the Emperor intended them to be, without any flaws. However, they did have flaws, the Emperor just didn't find them all that detrimental.

The Dauntless Few are Rogal Dorn, Leman Russ, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. The examplars of not only their Legions, but of the other Primarchs. (Know No Fear)

[comicshorse]

Ferrus also happens to be one of the 'perfect Primarchs'. Guilliman says there are four Primarchs who were made exactly as the Emperor intended them to be, without any flaws. However, they did have flaws, the Emperor just didn't find them all that detrimental.

The Dauntless Few are Rogal Dorn, Leman Russ, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. The examplars of not only their Legions, but of the other Primarchs. (Know No Fear)

Yet he still picked Horus as Warmaster ?

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't the current head of the Iron Hands council exceptionally good at getting around this problem?

Kardan Stronos is obviously a heretic. He wants to keep Astartes brains as-is, and he likes emotions. The other Iron Fathers don't actually like him too much, but, he's the best they've got.

Yet he still picked Horus as Warmaster ?

Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius didn't want it. Leman Russ couldn't lead his brothers, that wasn't his role, and Ferrus likely fell in the same category.

Of the 'leaders';
Dorn and Sanguinius didn't want it. Nobody trusts Lion. Everybody hates Guilliman. Leaving Horus as the only real option.