Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Jon_Dahl]

I realize I'm very much late to the party on this one.
But that's one of the weird things about internet dating Jon.
Where as in a lot of instances were one person asks the other out in person there is this assumption of exclusivity.
However in the context of an dating site this assumption is flawed.
It would be like assuming someone what a speed dating thing wasn't going to entertain other options.

The other weird thing about e-dating is that its possible to talk a lot and really get a feel for someone
without actually meeting them. The side effect of this, that I've found, not from e-dating per say but e-friendships in general,
is that people seem to be more free with their expressions of emotion. Thus I love you's etc. come sooner. Perhaps not in so much because people are being imprudent, but because there is an element of safety in expression things via a medium that has some distance. Even if its skype.

Anyway, it looks like you've got the situation handled, by some folks who appear to know you and your situation much better than I do. (I sort of passively lurk from time to time and occasionally offer advice) however I suspect that the calm reaction is what you can expect from all of the ladies you are talking to because the context in which they met you, (a dating website), facilitates that understanding.

Exactly! You are absolutely spot on! I have always imagined that women on dating sites think in one of the following manners:
- "Now that I got his attention, he's going to forget about everyone else, because I'm SO SPECIAL!"
- "Men don't get that many responses anyway, I'm most likely the only woman who has written him."
- "I'm just going to pretend that his profile was there just for me, and the rest of the world doesn't matter."
There's also something that I haven't really understood... As I said, the girl who really likes me was calm when I told her that other women have been contacting me. However, she did get fairly incensed when I asked her if she was writing with other men... So it's ok if I say that I write with other women, but it's gross to imply that she writes with other men...? I think I can live to be a hundred years old and never understand women.

Also, since many of the playgrounders are Americans, I'd like ask advice how to approach an American woman. Lately a lady from Florida has expressed her interest in me and I'd like to know a few tips:
- Topics to avoid?
- Conversation starters?
- Is there still some stigma in the USA when it comes to roleplaying? Can I mention that I'm a roleplayer?
- If and when I talk with her in Skype, should I go "yeah... hmmm... yes... hmmm... right..." all the time when I listen to her or is it ok if I don't do sounds while she's talking?
I have never spoken with an American woman so tips would be welcomed.

[Ceaon]

I think I can live to be a hundred years old and never understand women.

I have never spoken with an American woman so tips would be welcomed.

Jon, I am not sure from the above quotes if it is just something that seemingly just appears during writing or whether is how you really think, and I apologize if this sounds like anything but the constructive criticism it is meant as.

But from this and previous posts it seems to me that you're thinking a lot in concepts of boxes, as in: a woman has characteristics stored in the 'women-box', an American woman has the characteristics of the 'American-box', and a Brazilian woman is preferable because you like certain aspects of the 'Brazilian-women-box' (good for you that you seem to be expanding your horizons, by the way).

I think it may help you to approach potential dates as persons first and as their gender/nationality second (or maybe not at all). Ask them what they like or dislike, don't assume anything because of where they happen to live, even if very helpful and nice forumites have told you something about average women or average Americans.

I may be way off here, but I thought this was important enough to say even if I end up being completely wrong.

[Jon_Dahl]

You're absolutely right Caeon, but everyone has a culture and that culture has an influence on their mentality and their "jeitinho" like they say in Portuguese. Human being is a sum of his or her psychological, sociological and physiological aspects. I don't tend to think in boxes. I just consider all the factors and, so far, it has really paid off :)

[Aedilred]

I can see that in some cultures there might be behaviour which is expected from someone trying to establish a relationship (or conversely, behaviour which such a person is expected not to exhibit) although if someone is actively searching for a transcultural/transcontinental relationship that might be a red herring anyway. And there might be cultural quirks of your own that don't "translate" well and need to be reconsidered, although it's difficult to comment on either in particularly general terms and I think it's possible to get hung up on the cultural differences rather than the personal compatibilities.

As far as Americans go I think the most important factor is not being a jerk.

In general I agree with Ceaon.

[Coidzor]

The majority of women you'd encounter online will tend towards being American or Western European, if I recall my demographics correctly, followed by Australians and Canadians.

So, odds are, you've communicated with an American woman on this very website if you've participated in the rest of the forum.

America is a big place at the end of the day, some might even say it's continental. Though there are some commonalities, it will more tend to depend upon where she's from, where she grew up, and what subcultures she's invested in/influenced by what sort of cultural notes she'd exhibit. Most of which should be readily apparent from interacting with her or her profile if there's any kind of dating profile involved. Or Facebook style profile for that matter.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Spoiler: Argh, and such. Of venting.

Show

Y'know, occasionally it had fun parts, but this whole liking people thing has just been getting less and less enjoyable the longer it's been happening and the longer it goes on for any one person.

To the point where I'm like "**** 'em," and kinda hate them for being likeable in the first place and why I should care how they're doing. Then I hear from them and all that goes away somewhere and I'm addicted again.

Withdrawal from people is scary enough what it does to me and how bad of a person it reveals to me that I am. I shudder to think what it must do with some actual physical component to the addiction.

Feelings are hard and nobody understands :(

[random_guy]

To directly answer one of your questions, roleplaying is associated with nerds and geeks in American culture. It's not stigmatized per se, but it is not exactly mainstream. In my opinion, if your potential date looks unfavorably upon roleplaying, you might not want to continue keeping in touch anyway, so I see no reason to hide it. I personally handle the topic by not hiding the fact I play roleplaying games. However, I only bring up the information if it is relevant to the discussion.

In some areas, people still think D&D is associated with Satan worship. I'm not from Florida, so I do not know if there is anyone from Florida who has that point of view.

The only remaining advice is "what they said". Information on her profile about her hobbies and interests should be safe topics to discuss.

[Llewelyn]

Not sure if this is really asking for advice or not, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest, and writing it out may at least help me think things through further or at least get me out of chasing my own tail. That said:

Spoiler

Show

I met someone online back around V-day online.. well actually I'd seen them around at my hangout place but I noticed this time they seemed to be interested in me a bit. I followed up on that, keeping in mind what I read here, as I started following this thread around the same time out of interest, as I'd been single for around 3 years at that point. We got closer over a couple months, and a couple months later I had a talk with her about maybe a possible relationship that ended in a maybe.

Keep in mind this is all online, and I fully acknowledge that there's no way to know if it'd work out for real until we had a chance to meet face to face and interact in meatspace. In fact, that's something I kept reminding myself the whole time, and afterwards too.

Another thing to keep in mind was there was also a crazy coincidence in that she came from the Chicago area, which is where I live now, and currently lives in Florida, where the company I work for also has some customers that I work with in IT, so there was the possibility of me going to work physically in the Florida office at some point in the future.

Since I wasn't sure how to read her answer, I just kept on not doing anything different. We spent a lot of time together playing games and chatting online with other folks, and we got closer in many ways. I knew she was at least my age if not older, but I didn't want to pressure her into giving me any information she wasn't comfortable giving me herself. Only recently did I find out her RL name, and got her cell(she'd had mine a while before that).

At some point along the way though, I'd lost the dwarf from my chariot that had been whispering the equivalent of "you're still mortal" if you get my referance - the remindsers that this could fail to work out at any point. I hadn't realized that and here's where it gets interesting:

My mom had been diagnosed with cancer last year and had been fighting it. My parents hadn't let me know how bad it was until a couple weeks ago, when she basically passed the point of no return. I'd spoken of it a bit with said online gf, as she'd lost both her parents a few years back or more- very rarely did she mention exact timeframes on things, which was what made it hard for me to pin down her age(and the right moment hadn't come up). Anyways, back in mid-October she let me know she had to go to the hospital for some tests and monitoring. I knew of a health-condition she had, and she hadn't been feeling the best as it was the past couple weeks. She also asked me to pass it on to the friends we hang out with so they would know as well. The day after she went in, my mom passed away, so I ended up being a bit preoccupied.

She had planned to load a couple programs on her laptop before she went in but as she didn't show up online in a couple days, I figured she hadn't gotten it to run, or something of that nature so I tried texting her. No response. I gave it a couple more days and tried again - again nothing. Getting a bit worried now as I'd gotten the impression it'd just be for a few days and now it was looking like it'd be longer.

Another couple related points of interest to add to my stress level: a bit before the whole mess started, my bosses had let me know they were actively working on moving me form the Florida customers to the local ones as they were trying to regionalize operations a bit more - and then during all this I found out that the Florida branch and my local branch were going to split operations and staff completely as part of all this. In addition, I'm also an avid WoW player(and she knows this) and while I'd unsubbed for a few months due to getting sick of the current raid, I'd re-subbed for the pre-expansion launch patch. Looking back, I pretty much used WoW and work to avoid dwelling too much on my mom and to try to keep form worrying too much about my online gf. But, I also needed to prepare my characters for the expansion, since I'm in a higher-end raiding guild and had been planning to hit it hard since the relase date was announced(including taking vacation then)

Anyways, Halloween came and went, and she'd said multiple times that was her favorite holiday. She'd been looking forward to hosting an event at our online venue then, adn when she didn't make it back for that, it only made my worries worse, and everyone else was getting more worried too. I let them know that I'd tried all the means I had for getting in touch, though. One guy suggested since I knew her real name and where she lived generally and he knew someone in government, he could get her address so we could send her a "Get Well" card. I didn't like the idea because as I told him, she's been a fairly private person about some of her personal details(As evinced in how long it was before I got any non-online contact info!) and I didn't want to try to find out until she wanted to tell me, though I had been planning to ask her anyways to see about getting her a Christmas present(or birthday as it's fairly close to Christmas).

It did make me wonder though, so on a whim I pulled up whitepages.com and tried her name and state, just out of curiosity. Well ti turned out it did have her address(and I knew it was hers as it was the only exact match to her name, and referanced places she'd mentioned she'd lived in the past). But it also had an estimate of her actual age. And it was a lot older than I'd been thinking - she was actually at least a year older than my mom had been, if it was accurate.

Hoping it was just inaccurate, I tried a few searches of other people who I knew the age of, and it either had them in the right range, or no age was listed. It didn't quite match with what I would have expected from the bits of her timeline I did know. And here's where my quandry comes in.

The person I've been talking with and hanging out with and doing stuff with online - I do still care deeply for her. I slept on it after finding this out last night and that hasn't changed. The age difference however feels too large for me - not only is she the same age as my parents, but even at absolute best if we got together RL and such, I'd lose her by the time I hot 70, and then have upwards of 20-30 years alone or start over, and that's a best case of how long we'd have together. I've made no secret of my age either since we first met, so she knows the age difference also. Maybe that's part of why she's been more hestant about things overall and feeling it out.

Still, it tends strongly towards shooting down the potential I thought I had seen with us as a couple, and with the separation of the Florida offices, it also removes that aspect of things too. At the same time I'm still worried about her because we're coming up on 3 weeks without word now since she went in, and with that age things could have taken a turn for the worse, and we'd never know since she lives alone and none of us has the contact info for her closest friend that she'd mentioned a few times.

I also know one of the key components of LDRs is communication, but I can't talk about it with her until she gets out, and it doesn't feel like it'd be fair to hit her with anything like this right after she'd spent several weeks in the hospital. Whatever the status of our relationship, I still care about her and want to keep being friends with her at the very least. I'm a very monogamous type of guy though so I wouldn't feel right looking for other girls while I'm with her. If she were 20 years younger, I'd have no problems whatsoever, either, and I'd probably still be interested in pursuing trying to meet up and see if it works in RL. As it is, with the other barriers, I just don't know, but I also don't want to start listing myself as single and unilaterally call a close to it while she's in the hospital, as that's not fair to her either - and there's the matter of all our mutual friends who knew we were basically a couple regardless.

And then there's all the stress recently between work, the WoW launch coming up, and losing my mom piled on top of that.

I guess I mostly needed to vent, but I've had a huge case of the blarghs with everything all hitting at once, and no idea when the transition back to local will finish or when she'll get out of the hospital. And figuring out where I go from here.

Just as a quick update on this, I just found out thanks to a couple of our mutual friends digging deeper than I had that she passed away back on the 24th. Looks like it's not an issue anymore.

[GrayGriffin]

Exactly! You are absolutely spot on! I have always imagined that women on dating sites think in one of the following manners:
- "Now that I got his attention, he's going to forget about everyone else, because I'm SO SPECIAL!"
- "Men don't get that many responses anyway, I'm most likely the only woman who has written him."
- "I'm just going to pretend that his profile was there just for me, and the rest of the world doesn't matter."
There's also something that I haven't really understood... As I said, the girl who really likes me was calm when I told her that other women have been contacting me. However, she did get fairly incensed when I asked her if she was writing with other men... So it's ok if I say that I write with other women, but it's gross to imply that she writes with other men...? I think I can live to be a hundred years old and never understand women.

I don't use dating sites, but another word for a dating site profile is a "personal ad," isn't it? When someone responds to your advertisement and you give them a positive response to it, and then later offer to sell them the product, it's not too much for them to assume that they are the only one who will be getting the product, is it? Now, of course this is a metaphor, but in this case the "product" would be "a relationship with you." And I realize that "selling" might not be the best term to use, but I assume that you can understand what I'm getting at here.

[Coidzor]

Feelings are hard and nobody understands :(

Spoiler: Frustration NOISES!?

Show

Yep. The worst part is I can't even be understanding with myself. Which probably contributes to the overall difficulties of forming relationships that feel real to me.

I honestly can't tell sometimes if I am just that ****ty of a person or if I have Imposter Syndrome for having friends and being a friend to others.

Quite annoying when paired with a craving for emotional intimacy, I tell you what.

And then there's the tiresome hypocrisy of going between feeling the heady elation that this is a person I can open up to and talk to about anything and knowing that what I most want to talk to them about is how I feel about them and how it's driving me crazy and that's just wrong on so many levels even before they have an SO.

It's just, stop the feels, I wanna get off.

And I feel kinda blown off because I'm in the same time zone now and she's still ass to get ahold of half the time and kinda pulling my hair out about actually seeing her for the first time in years when her demanding that I move back out here is part of what lead to my deciding to come back here. ****, last year about this time I alomst actually tried to commit suicide over her, when I had just started writing again and feeling hopeful and was in the process of preambling about asking her out while making plans to move out here much, much sooner than I ended up doing and then I couldn't do anything and resented her and myself for the fact that I'm still scared of picking up a pen and letting go again, which is just... so... so stupid and unhealthy and probably shows that I should've just gone along with the voice saying I should throw enough homophobic slurs at her that she'll never try to contact me again and then run away. Alas, that's too horrible even for me to do, at least intentionally, or else I'm just so weak or whatever.

Twelve Gods, I am so goddamned petty.

And it's not like what I feel can even be real, anyway.

And I still want to let her know how I feel and how it's making me go crazy even though that's textbook harassment and abusive behavior and manipulative and ****ty.

And I'm both evil for having unrequited feelings for a friend who just thought I was hot once and possibly may still find me atractive on a purely physical level if I haven't gotten uglier or her tastes haven't changed, which I mean, she's increasingly using lesbian as a term so probably her tastes have changed, though she still cops to being bi and speaks out against bi erasure.

And also that I'm just not enough of a man in the first place because I wouldn't be in this mess if I had just been faster and more aggressive about asking her out, as I could've just gotten a no at least rather than having her poached as I was making my bid not once but twice now and never actually trying anything when she did have her periodic breakups with her crazy psycho abusive ex.

So I'm too unmanly while also being too insensitive and nobadwrong for polite society.

And I'm kinda sick of feeling sorry for myself and hating myself and hating the world. It's just exhausting. Also, tiresome.

Gods, I wish I could just go and have a good cry or something to let out some of this steam in a less wretched, pathetic way than publicly baring my ugliness and silliness for all to see.

I'm honestly not sure if I should thank you for getting me started or apologize for going off on you like that.

Both? Both.

Thank you, sorry.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Llewelyn: Oh, man. I am really, really sorry for your loss. I wish it had turned out differently :(

Coidzor:

Spoiler

Show

You have always had a very unique way of thinking. I really rather like the way SiuiS described your mentality because before that I'd never really had a way of understanding how I felt about your thought processes - even after I had that incidental conversation with one of your friends some years back who tried to explain it to me.

So, in anycase, I had to read your vent a few times over before I understood exactly what it was you were saying and I'm still not sure I really get it because, Coid, you think and feel so much more vividly that anyone I have ever spoken to in my entire life. Everything you feel is so much more intense than anyone else and I sometimes wonder how you can manage your feelings

and now I have a little glimpse of that
I want to tell you that maybe you should put her out of your life for a little bit - cut off contact and try to focus on other things, but I'm not a hundred percent sure that distance (which normally works well for these sorts of situations) is what you need.
I'm not really sure what it is that would work here.

I do want to tell you that having less than perfect thoughts doesn't necessarily make you a horrible person. The fact that you acknowledge these thought patterns as manipulative and wrong and you actively avoid acting on them is amazing and a testament to your will power and your goodness and I know things seem hopeless but I want to let you know you're doing well

I dunno, man. Feelings are hard.
Keep on hanging on.

[Lissou]

My guess is that the woman who got offended was used to passive communication. In passive communication, your asking that could mean a few things. First, it could mean that you are trying to get her to incriminate herself in order to break up with her for being a (insert female-oriented insult there).

Second, it could also be insulting because if you already said you were writing to others, and she didn't reply that she did too, for a passive communicator, she's already told you she isn't, and you're insisting, meaning you don't trust her.

Passive communication is very complicated, and while it's not really a "woman thing" per se, a lot of cultures have made it harder for women to speak their minds which makes it more likely for them to develop that kind of communication.

My other idea is simply that she already knew she's not writing to other, so to her it's a matter of course, and so she was shocked that you thought she was doing something she (knows that she) would never do. Of course you would have no way of knowing that without talking about it but she might have felt she was very clear about it already.

[rogueboy]

Just looking for a sounding board, to help me get out of my own head (I spend too much time there as it is!):

I've started chatting with someone on OKC, and am getting to the point where I'd typically ask someone out for drinks (couple messages each way, actual conversation growth in each message, etc); however, my schedule sucks for the next week+, and I don't have a day that doesn't have me doing something for an exam or general survival for over a week. Do I just continue the conversation for a few more days, and then start seeing about meeting up for drinks once it'll be less than a week before I can, or do I ask about drinks now while noting that my schedule sucks for the next week?

[Crow]

Just looking for a sounding board, to help me get out of my own head (I spend too much time there as it is!):

I've started chatting with someone on OKC, and am getting to the point where I'd typically ask someone out for drinks (couple messages each way, actual conversation growth in each message, etc); however, my schedule sucks for the next week+, and I don't have a day that doesn't have me doing something for an exam or general survival for over a week. Do I just continue the conversation for a few more days, and then start seeing about meeting up for drinks once it'll be less than a week before I can, or do I ask about drinks now while noting that my schedule sucks for the next week?

I would just make the plans for a time when your schedule isn't so busy. Nobody says you can't make plans unless it is within the next week. Face it, asking her out for those drinks isn't because you could really go for some drinks. You want to see what she says to it. So just ask and make the plans.

[rogueboy]

I would just make the plans for a time when your schedule isn't so busy. Nobody says you can't make plans unless it is within the next week. Face it, asking her out for those drinks isn't because you could really go for some drinks. You want to see what she says to it. So just ask and make the plans.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, Crow. I was getting to that point myself, but it's good to hear someone point out how obviously that's the correct answer. I've gotten far too good at convincing myself to not do things because I don't like a possible outcome. I sent her a message this morning, so I'll probably give her a chance to reply to that, but suggest drinks in my next message.

[Ursus the Grim]

Exactly! You are absolutely spot on! I have always imagined that women on dating sites think in one of the following manners:
- "Now that I got his attention, he's going to forget about everyone else, because I'm SO SPECIAL!"
- "Men don't get that many responses anyway, I'm most likely the only woman who has written him."
- "I'm just going to pretend that his profile was there just for me, and the rest of the world doesn't matter."
There's also something that I haven't really understood... As I said, the girl who really likes me was calm when I told her that other women have been contacting me. However, she did get fairly incensed when I asked her if she was writing with other men... So it's ok if I say that I write with other women, but it's gross to imply that she writes with other men...? I think I can live to be a hundred years old and never understand women.

Also, since many of the playgrounders are Americans, I'd like ask advice how to approach an American woman. Lately a lady from Florida has expressed her interest in me and I'd like to know a few tips:
- Topics to avoid?
- Conversation starters?
- Is there still some stigma in the USA when it comes to roleplaying? Can I mention that I'm a roleplayer?
- If and when I talk with her in Skype, should I go "yeah... hmmm... yes... hmmm... right..." all the time when I listen to her or is it ok if I don't do sounds while she's talking?
I have never spoken with an American woman so tips would be welcomed.

Well, Florida is a big place. The US is also a big place. North America is even bigger, and AMERICA is huge! You love your generalizations, and while I understand that stereotypes exist based on observed traits, you can't really operate on them. Just because I was attracted a Portuguese girl in school and my Portuguese best friend was a little bit of a jerk, I can't assume all Portuguese people are delta-bravos with body odor but deceptively nice smiles. It sets incorrect expectations and will fail a relationship before it has a chance to thrive. That's how so many 'nice guys' show their real ugly side. "I stood up for Lily but she went with James instead! Love is a lie and Sally will hurt me too!"

Sorry, bit of a rant. Stereotypes, or the euphemism that you've been using (boxes), exist with some justification. But you can't shape your future interactions based off of it. A girl may find out I'm primarily German and Sicilian. If she assumes I'm into weird fetishes and cheap jewelry, well, she'll be terribly disappointed.

That being said, here's some cultural notes:
A) The stigma I associate with roleplaying is that it generally suggests to me a sexual context. So much to the point that instead of saying "I roleplay" I call it collaborative storytelling. Because explaining that I'm playing in Castle Greyhawk somehow isn't easier to explain than saying we're reenacting the Lusty Argonian Maid. Calling them tabletop games is a little easier, too.

B1) Americans hate stereotypes and as a rule try to be politically correct out of some fear that they'll be made a pariah. That being said, some outliers go in the opposite direction, and dramatically. These are the "Romney is a polygamist lunatic/Obama is a lizard person" folks.

B2) Politics. They're going to be uncomfortable if you bring them up. Just like here on the forums. . . don't. Wait for her to bring it up, and then gauge how much of it you can actually talk about.

Since this is a Woes and Advice, I thought I'd write some general advice and go through some things. This is not for anyone specific, just some random thoughts.

Spoiler

Show

How to find that dream-girl?
1. Have an active life. Have skills and hobbies that are interesting and appealling to the opposite sex.
I've always wondered why the guys that would have time for women have no women, and why guys who are busy have relationships. Women like guys who do stuff. It only pays to do the right stuff. I'd recommend learning how to dance or speak a new language. Chances are that you will find your new girlfriend that way. It's important have lots of exposure in every possible way. More exposure to people = More chances for that special random encounter.

2. Don't throw oranges away.
My Brazilian friend taught me a very important lesson. We are all lucky to have him, because now I'm going to tell you something important. When you meet the wrong kind of women, no matter how wrong is she, try to get acquainted with her female friends. First you have to make sure that the woman understands that there's no chances for a relationship. After that try looking at her friends. I had this experience that a married woman was trying to approach me, and I was going to let her have it. My friend stopped me and told me about the bad oranges. Many people see a bad orange, and they throw it away. The wise man will take its seed, plant it and grow oranges. So you have to go and grow oranges. Every woman, no matter how bad they are, know one or two decent woman. Try accessing them and get their attention, and don't throw away the bad oranges.

3. Try to find women who appreciate your qualities.
Ok, so you're blond and you have blue eyes, or maybe you have dark hair and brown eyes. Chances are the most men around you look the same as you. This is bad. You have to try get to know women who don't know that many men like you. Imagine a bad singer from Togo. Togolese women understand that he's a bad singer, and he's black like everyone else. They are not interested. That guy should come here. The local women here would love an "exotic and different African man, who often sings in a manner that they've never heard before". Of course there's a long way from Togo to my country, but the point still stands: you have to find your market. The Internet is here to help you with that.

4. Once you do something, you have to do it forever.
Women hate when men change. I don't know why, but it seems that they want to feel secure. When a man changes it makes them feel insecure. That's when you buy them flowers and you stop, it's bad. If you have never bought them flowers and then you start doing that all of a sudden, it's bad. Once you start a relationship, you go in locked-off mode. Positive surprises are welcomed, but when the woman sayd that "You've changed", you have a big, big problem. You can really congratulate yourself if you manage to overcome that problem.

5. She always had a hidden agenda.
Women don't like saying things straight. When she says "maybe", it really means a multitude of things. You will be committing a heinous error if you think that "maybe" just means "maybe". The only word that has no hidden agenda is the magic word "no". This is the best word, because it really means "no", as in "no way, it will not happen". Other than that, you have to use your instinct and guile, especially when she says little. The less she says, the more you have to interpret.

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, Florida is a big place. The US is also a big place. North America is even bigger, and AMERICA is huge! You love your generalizations, and while I understand that stereotypes exist based on observed traits, you can't really operate on them. Just because I was attracted a Portuguese girl in school and my Portuguese best friend was a little bit of a jerk, I can't assume all Portuguese people are delta-bravos with body odor but deceptively nice smiles. It sets incorrect expectations and will fail a relationship before it has a chance to thrive. That's how so many 'nice guys' show their real ugly side. "I stood up for Lily but she went with James instead! Love is a lie and Sally will hurt me too!"

Sorry, bit of a rant. Stereotypes, or the euphemism that you've been using (boxes), exist with some justification. But you can't shape your future interactions based off of it. A girl may find out I'm primarily German and Sicilian. If she assumes I'm into weird fetishes and cheap jewelry, well, she'll be terribly disappointed.

That being said, here's some cultural notes:
A) The stigma I associate with roleplaying is that it generally suggests to me a sexual context. So much to the point that instead of saying "I roleplay" I call it collaborative storytelling. Because explaining that I'm playing in Castle Greyhawk somehow isn't easier to explain than saying we're reenacting the Lusty Argonian Maid. Calling them tabletop games is a little easier, too.

B1) Americans hate stereotypes and as a rule try to be politically correct out of some fear that they'll be made a pariah. That being said, some outliers go in the opposite direction, and dramatically. These are the "Romney is a polygamist lunatic/Obama is a lizard person" folks.

B2) Politics. They're going to be uncomfortable if you bring them up. Just like here on the forums. . . don't. Wait for her to bring it up, and then gauge how much of it you can actually talk about.

No, no stereotypes or generalizations... I'm not looking for those and I guess you know that since you answered my questions perfectly. Thank you once again! It seems that you understood that I'm not looking for a recipe full of stereotypes, but, instead, just some cultural* advice (Which I was duly given).
*May not be the right word, but anyway...

[sktarq]

- Topics to avoid?
- Conversation starters?
- Is there still some stigma in the USA when it comes to roleplaying? Can I mention that I'm a roleplayer?
- If and when I talk with her in Skype, should I go "yeah... hmmm... yes... hmmm... right..."
I have never spoken with an American woman so tips would be welcomed.

Topic 1) Classic etiquette in the USA says to avoid race, religion, and politics in polite conversation. While many would call that outdated it is more true than ever as Americans are now less likely to have friends who disagree with them on such topics than they used to.
Topic 2) Role-playing is fine to admit to but make sure it is not your defining trait. It should be a hobby. I'd recommend portraying as a social event like a weekly poker or domino game. At least until you have a better feel for her views.
Third-a moderate amount. The longer she goes on the more important it is to have occasional encouraging comments. Beware of the trap where you appear unengaged though.

Coid-after a few readings of you last couple of vents-I have a question. Why are you putting yourself through this. A girl you have not seen in years who things may have had thing for once is causing you to twist yourself in knots. You say that it is because you can tell her anything, except how you feel about her. That has never come up with another? Would you have seen the opertunity if it came up because that "role" has been reserved for this young lady? Since cutting off much contact and even moving have not seemed to dull the hooks in your heart saying toss her from your life as unhealthy would be folly. You need to let what will be, be. Take what joy you can, watch for oppertunies to be close but don't let her limit where else you can find joy or understanding. Just because she may become single soon doesn't mean you shouldn't start dating someone else. He'll you gave me the run like hell advice about my alcoholic ex a couple years back and so I get why running isn't an option when you can tie yourself up in knots.

As for letting her know-tricky ain't it? You do you feel like you're trying to manipulate her and risk possibly driving her away with an issue she doesn't want to deal with, but if you don't you are lying by omission in a rather large way and denying her the chance to do anything about it if that is what she wants. And while I don't encourage rash action don't dismiss the last possibility that she wants you to take some sort of action-at it's most extreme I dated a young lady who had gotten married to another man mostly to provoke another friend to either move in on her or become "unavailable" due to her changed status. We are all rationalizing illogical beasts-which while you seem to understand about yourself you can't project an assumption of logical behavior onto others-especially when years of emotion is involved.

Sorry to have to be the stick in this totally feces resembling situation.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Since this is a Woes and Advice, I thought I'd write some general advice and go through some things. This is not for anyone specific, just some random thoughts.

Spoiler

Show

How to find that dream-girl?
1. Have an active life. Have skills and hobbies that are interesting and appealling to the opposite sex.
I've always wondered why the guys that would have time for women have no women, and why guys who are busy have relationships. Women like guys who do stuff. It only pays to do the right stuff. I'd recommend learning how to dance or speak a new language. Chances are that you will find your new girlfriend that way. It's important have lots of exposure in every possible way. More exposure to people = More chances for that special random encounter.

2. Don't throw oranges away.
My Brazilian friend taught me a very important lesson. We are all lucky to have him, because now I'm going to tell you something important. When you meet the wrong kind of women, no matter how wrong is she, try to get acquainted with her female friends. First you have to make sure that the woman understands that there's no chances for a relationship. After that try looking at her friends. I had this experience that a married woman was trying to approach me, and I was going to let her have it. My friend stopped me and told me about the bad oranges. Many people see a bad orange, and they throw it away. The wise man will take its seed, plant it and grow oranges. So you have to go and grow oranges. Every woman, no matter how bad they are, know one or two decent woman. Try accessing them and get their attention, and don't throw away the bad oranges.

3. Try to find women who appreciate your qualities.
Ok, so you're blond and you have blue eyes, or maybe you have dark hair and brown eyes. Chances are the most men around you look the same as you. This is bad. You have to try get to know women who don't know that many men like you. Imagine a bad singer from Togo. Togolese women understand that he's a bad singer, and he's black like everyone else. They are not interested. That guy should come here. The local women here would love an "exotic and different African man, who often sings in a manner that they've never heard before". Of course there's a long way from Togo to my country, but the point still stands: you have to find your market. The Internet is here to help you with that.

4. Once you do something, you have to do it forever.
Women hate when men change. I don't know why, but it seems that they want to feel secure. When a man changes it makes them feel insecure. That's when you buy them flowers and you stop, it's bad. If you have never bought them flowers and then you start doing that all of a sudden, it's bad. Once you start a relationship, you go in locked-off mode. Positive surprises are welcomed, but when the woman sayd that "You've changed", you have a big, big problem. You can really congratulate yourself if you manage to overcome that problem.

5. She always had a hidden agenda.
Women don't like saying things straight. When she says "maybe", it really means a multitude of things. You will be committing a heinous error if you think that "maybe" just means "maybe". The only word that has no hidden agenda is the magic word "no". This is the best word, because it really means "no", as in "no way, it will not happen". Other than that, you have to use your instinct and guile, especially when she says little. The less she says, the more you have to interpret.

Dear people trying to romance a woman,
This is the exact wrong way to think of them or to go about it.
Love,
RHL

[Knaight]

B1) Americans hate stereotypes and as a rule try to be politically correct out of some fear that they'll be made a pariah. That being said, some outliers go in the opposite direction, and dramatically. These are the "Romney is a polygamist lunatic/Obama is a lizard person" folks.

B2) Politics. They're going to be uncomfortable if you bring them up. Just like here on the forums. . . don't. Wait for her to bring it up, and then gauge how much of it you can actually talk about.

On B1) There's aversions to stereotypes in some circles, but in others there very much aren't. Your examples go nowhere near the levels of stereotyping there - after all, they aren't even aimed at groups.

On B2) There's a case to be made for bringing politics up early, if dissimilar politics are a deal breaker for you. The same applies to religion, really.

[Crow]

Dear people trying to romance a woman,
This is the exact wrong way to think of them or to go about it.
Love,
RHL

:D

You said it so politely.

[RabbitHoleLost]

:D

You said it so politely.

How very unexpected of ol' RHL, yeah?

[Lissou]

Can someone smack me on the head?

I have a store card in our store under my husband's name. It came up while talking with my coworker. He pointed out it's not my name. I simply said that indeed, it wasn't my name.
I should have told him it was my husband's. Make it clear I'm married. I didn't. I didn't him to stop looking at me this way. That was bad, and cowardly, and unfair.
I keep thinking I want him to learn about it when I have a chance to explain that I'm polyamorous. But... saying so is just out of place most of the time. I don't know if I'll get an opportunity like that. I should just be honest and figure it out.

On the other hand, I learned that while the company has a policy against someone dating their direct supervisor, they're pretty good about assigning people to a different project if they start dating so nobody would need to stop working there.

Still, part of me thinks I should go for it and part of me thinks that if he's not actually into me, that could be incredibly inappropriate of me to make advances, and that even if he is into me, we really need to get to know each other better first.

Also, he gave me a cookie today. Nom nom nom cookie.

[Coidzor]

Llewelyn, I am so, so sorry.

RHLS:

Spoiler: RabbitHoleLost

Show

You have always had a very unique way of thinking. I really rather like the way SiuiS described your mentality because before that I'd never really had a way of understanding how I felt about your thought processes - even after I had that incidental conversation with one of your friends some years back who tried to explain it to me.

I honestly can't remember what way that was, but if it has something to do with Mad Gears whirring away and overheating then I suspect it's far more accurate than I would like. Like a freaking clockwork universe of a black box in there sometimes. Or just... black magic, where the universe puts in input and I can watch the input go in and often I have no idea how it got what it got from that but it spits it back out and it is me, at the end of the day, even though I dissociate from myself enough to the point where I suspect some kind of need to speak to a mental health professional about that or that the connections between the two hemispheres of my brain are slightly off-kilter so I really am closer to two people sharing one brain than most people who haven't had their lobes separated. That or my mom's hypochondria has worn off on me and combined with my overly healthy paranoia. XD

I'm actually a bit surprised you remember that conversation... I'd actually kinda forgotten that happened.

So, in anycase, I had to read your vent a few times over before I understood exactly what it was you were saying and I'm still not sure I really get it because, Coid, you think and feel so much more vividly that anyone I have ever spoken to in my entire life. Everything you feel is so much more intense than anyone else and I sometimes wonder how you can manage your feelings

Sorry. Especially when I'm... going out of my gourd with misery and bleakness and disassociating it gets hard for me to follow my own thoughts as they're coming out and then also when I don't feel quite so crappy and I go back and look at it, it's sort of like trying to read a mathematical equation where I only know about half of the operations necessary to compute the solution. x.x

The, uh, the short answer is that I generally don't/can't manage my feelings, leading to intense misery or completely over the top and extreme anger, to the point where I still have issues with anger to the point where I just try to repress it as much as possible, since it's relatively rare things will make me angry so I haven't really been able to figure out a good way to just desensitize myself to it.

I basically flip-flop from feeling fairly intensely(though it doesn't seem to be that much more intense than how people feel when they're elated or excited) and feeling numbish, the best times being where I'm able to get a break and just feel neutral and experience what I imagine it must be like to have normal human emotions where I respond positively but milldy towards things that please me and only mild irritation at annoyances. But, y'know, there's not much reason to really make a note of normal functionality when it is experienced. I should probably start keeping a journal just so I have a clearer idea of how much time I spend in each state, come to think of it, just so I have a more accurate picture of myself not obscured by the haze that obscures my thoughts far too often.

I think it's more that the numbish feeling and feeling miserable and depressed just tend to last for a fairly long period of time for me when they happen. It was once said that my mood/emotional state basically was skewed so that my default state is just more unhappy than most people, like mood was a sinusoidal wave or whatever and I was offset at -5 on the y-axis where everyone else starts at

The feast or famine emotions thing and how it tends to make me more frayed at the edges and think and behave more erratically or in a more disjointed manner or actively have my thought processes and cognitive functions impaired may actually explain why I've never really had a relationship with someone who really set my heart on fire, since I go stupid and crazy when I actually fall for a girl and with a girl who I like but am not ga-ga over I can actually think things through and be more measured with her.

Maybe.

and now I have a little glimpse of that
I want to tell you that maybe you should put her out of your life for a little bit - cut off contact and try to focus on other things, but I'm not a hundred percent sure that distance (which normally works well for these sorts of situations) is what you need.
I'm not really sure what it is that would work here.

Well, yeah, I've gone months where I've talked to her once or twice, I think the most was about a month and a half straight. At this point my biggest plan was to hope that finally meeting up with her after moving across the country would either result in either letting me do something with the ember that's been smouldering fitfully in my chest or let it finally die after seeing how she really is these days.

It's just that she decided to go out of town when I landed and then the last few times I've been up there, either she's been busy with work when I was free or I just wasn't able to get away from my friends due to either where they drove to or how long and how much waiting was involved with helping them move. Which, y'know, life happens, but that kinda thing is damned frustrating when you're already sick of being crazy because of/about someone and just wanna get being disillusioned with them and having a horrible reunion that sours things forever out of the way already, even though awkward coughing and a normal sup how's it going is infinitely more likely than either leaving hating one another or leaving together to go bone like rabbits.

Mostly that's to show that any change that either ended things or offered me some relief would be preferable to continuing on as things have been. Because, damn, it's been years now and I know that partially I got over my ex-fiance because I fell for this girl, but it's kinda ridiculous and also embarrassing when I look at it from as close as I can get to an objective POV on the matter.

I do want to tell you that having less than perfect thoughts doesn't necessarily make you a horrible person. The fact that you acknowledge these thought patterns as manipulative and wrong and you actively avoid acting on them is amazing and a testament to your will power and your goodness and I know things seem hopeless but I want to let you know you're doing well

I know that on one level, but guilt is a helluva drug, y'know? But thank you.

Still, there are thoughts that I feel simply terrible for being capable of entertaining and kinda fear the possibility that there could come a day when I wouldn't reject them and would instead embrace them.

I dunno, man. Feelings are hard.
Keep on hanging on.

Truest of truths.

I shall try.

Yep. The worst part is I can't even be understanding with myself. Which probably contributes to the overall difficulties of forming relationships that feel real to me.

I honestly can't tell sometimes if I am just that ****ty of a person or if I have Imposter Syndrome for having friends and being a friend to others.

Basically I feel like I'm a false friend sometimes and like other people feel like they're closer to and more well bonded with their friends, as my best friends I feel like I'm comparatively more distant with, partially because they're either both fairly hands-off kinda guys and low-maintenance introverts who enjoy their quiet time and being alone and sometimes being alone together... or they're A, who I want to marry and bone and have 3.5 squawling sproglings with, which is problematic on its own, since it's kinda terrible to want to have children with someone who has explicitly stated on multiple occasions that she never wants to reproduce even if she is actually able to and there's some question as to that due to health problems.

And, of course, I feel like a fake friend towards A because I want to bone her and have wanted to bone her since she first took my breath away by being flawless and sitting across from me on a virtually empty bus and our conversation that we struck up when we both got off at the stop to go to school together. And am only actually her friend because my bid to date her failed because she moved. And there's some disagreement between the two of us as to whether she actually said that she wasn't interested in an LDR before I even had the chance to broach that subject or if I imagined that exchange and I should've just asked her out anyway. Which is/was a... very odd disagreement to have, to say the least. So, y'know, it's my own damn fault and I have horrible timing, since this is the same girl who, after she was finally single again and I waited a few days to make sure that it wasn't one of those brief one or two day breakups she'd had in the past and then just as I was actually starting to make my move she told me that she asked another girl out already.

Which is hella mixed messagey, really, since she revealed that she'd actually been broken up for over a month before she told me even though it was kind of a major deal, so on one level it definitely feels like she's doing things because my feelings for her make her uncomfortable and she doesn't want to actually have to deal with directly rejecting me and on the other hand every time I'm just about fed up with this and want to cut off ties completely, she lets on just how much she enjoys me or we have a really great conversation that actually feels reasonably open and free and easy like sunday morning. So it's like on the one hand she kinda wants to get rid of me but on the other hand she was pressuring me to move back and has made a point of stating how happy she is that I'm back and how she wants to see me again and has actually proposed visiting me but on the other hand between girlfriend stuff and mom stuff and job stuff and her grandma entering assisted living/geriatric/possibly being on her deathbed stuff...

I honestly don't know what to think, but there's no way to really ask without being horribly rude and hurtful and myopically self-centered and clearly thinking that everything revolves around me.

Quite annoying when paired with a craving for emotional intimacy, I tell you what.

I'd be much happier if I were aromantic, a stereotypical meme-introvert who actually just hates people/interacting with them, because then I wouldn't want to be around people I liked and have them be happy and be happy with me and my being happy with them and feeling a need to have some kind of spiritual or emotional connection with them beyond I like talking to this person more than others so I talk to them a bit more and occasionally we play games and do other activities together.

Because I desperately crave what I think of as a meaningful relationship. Also sex, but actually these days the craving an emotional connection is stronger than the craving for sex. Who knew that everything started falling apart as a guy as early as 25? So disappointed in my apparent lack of virility that I'm no longer completely voracious sexually. XD

But, seriously, craving an emotional connection, especially when I feel like I'm not really capable of sustaining and giving it my all on my end is... stupid and bad.

And then there's the tiresome hypocrisy of going between feeling the heady elation that this is a person I can open up to and talk to about anything and knowing that what I most want to talk to them about is how I feel about them and how it's driving me crazy and that's just wrong on so many levels even before they have an SO.

I don't want to be that guy who complains about the friendzone but I kinda am that guy and I hate myself for it and hate her for it and also feel that stupid pseudo-love which isn't real love because real love only exists where reciprocated but I have feels anyway and it may just be the crazy talking but I think what I feel could grow into love if it had the chance to do so

It's just, stop the feels, I wanna get off.

I kinda want to stop having all of these feelings without instead having the numbness of feeling dead and beaten and broken inside. In some ways feeling dead and beaten and broken is worse than feeling miserable or in pain, which makes people who self-harm almost make sense to me, but I'm kind of a terrible person and don't see the point in that when there's so many other people around being happy or at least normal or at least maintaining the facade of normalcy to wipe the smiles off of their faces if one is going to go down the morally bankrupt path of causing harm to sate the darkness inside ourselves.

Which is terrible, but on the other hand it seems to control the evil a bit more to challenge it as pointless unless it were true mustache-twirling villainy.

And I feel kinda blown off because I'm in the same time zone now and she's still ass to get ahold of half the time and kinda pulling my hair out about actually seeing her for the first time in years when her demanding that I move back out here is part of what lead to my deciding to come back here. ****, last year about this time I alomst actually tried to commit suicide over her, when I had just started writing again and feeling hopeful and was in the process of preambling about asking her out while making plans to move out here much, much sooner than I ended up doing and then I couldn't do anything and resented her and myself for the fact that I'm still scared of picking up a pen and letting go again, which is just... so... so stupid and unhealthy and probably shows that I should've just gone along with the voice saying I should throw enough homophobic slurs at her that she'll never try to contact me again and then run away. Alas, that's too horrible even for me to do, at least intentionally, or else I'm just so weak or whatever.

She's bisexual and dating a lesbian. Pretty sure that if I did it the right way, instead of wondering why I started being all biphobic and homophobic at her, she'd just get pissed and feel betrayed and that would erase any feelings of friendship, or lingering attraction that she probably doesn't have anyway, towards me, because I am weak and she could easily reel me back in if I ran and she wanted me back. Which is scary and speaks poorly of my character, both for the contemplating saying terrible things I don't believe to hurt someone in order to run from them and also knowing that even if I mustered up the will to run, I'd still be her spaniel if she asked, which I know is pathetic.

Twelve Gods, I am so goddamned petty.

I feel kinda petty just for having these concerns in the first place.

And it's not like what I feel can even be real, anyway.

As mentioned, it's not love unless it's reciprocated, though I think that's been covered several times in this thread.

That and I clearly must have Nice Guy_TM fake feelings because I'm hung up on a girl when I'm supposed to just be her friend. And that's terrible.

And I still want to let her know how I feel and how it's making me go crazy even though that's textbook harassment and abusive behavior and manipulative and ****ty.

She already knows how I feel unless she's operating under the illusion that I've actually gotten over her in the past year. And if I actually told her that the reason I fell apart and wanted to kill myself last November was because of how bad I felt that I spiralled downward and everything snowballed into a great big pile of crap was ultimately started by her being super elated and telling me about this girl she liked who she asked out on a date with intent to girlfriend, well, that would be bad on so many levels I don't actually know how many levels that would be bad on but I'm sure it's more than 4.

And I'm both evil for having unrequited feelings for a friend who just thought I was hot once and possibly may still find me atractive on a purely physical level if I haven't gotten uglier or her tastes haven't changed, which I mean, she's increasingly using lesbian as a term so probably her tastes have changed, though she still cops to being bi and speaks out against bi erasure.

I semi-regularly/intermittantly/sporadically feel guilt that I'm a Nice Guy_TM because of my feelings for her, which feeds into my resentments and insecurities.

It's either dumb and I'm a terrible person or it's kinda true on some level and I'm a terrible person.

And also that I'm just not enough of a man in the first place because I wouldn't be in this mess if I had just been faster and more aggressive about asking her out, as I could've just gotten a no at least rather than having her poached as I was making my bid not once but twice now and never actually trying anything when she did have her periodic breakups with her crazy psycho abusive ex.

I should've been more aggressive in asking her out sooner the times I've had an opportunity to do so. Then, at least, I'd have gotten a no, gotten a no and I'd be in an alternate timeline where I wasn't in this awkward friends-but-no-not-really-just-failed-attempt-at-boyfriending-that's-still-haning-around-for-some-ungodly-reason, or gotten with her, even for a little while.

So I'm too unmanly while also being too insensitive and nobadwrong for polite society.

And it's hyper misogynistic of me to think of those times where she ended up going out with someone else when I was gearing up to it myself as them poaching her.

And I'm kinda sick of feeling sorry for myself and hating myself and hating the world. It's just exhausting. Also, tiresome.

Gods, I wish I could just go and have a good cry or something to let out some of this steam in a less wretched, pathetic way than publicly baring my ugliness and silliness for all to see.

Feelings are dumb and I'd be happier without this set.

Being able to vent or use the emotions in some way rather than just having them around until they dissipate or burst or whatever would be an improvement on the current faux-stoicism I've been going with instead.

sktarq

Spoiler: sktarq

Show

Coid-after a few readings of you last couple of vents-I have a question. Why are you putting yourself through this. A girl you have not seen in years who things may have had thing for once is causing you to twist yourself in knots. You say that it is because you can tell her anything, except how you feel about her. That has never come up with another? Would you have seen the opertunity if it came up because that "role" has been reserved for this young lady?

I've had a couple of relationships where I felt really open with the other person, yeah, but they never really quite took the turn to go from friendship/siblingship to romantic relationship. Which makes it kinda weird when you basically care for someone the same way you would family but you also occasionally hook up when you're drunk, which is something you're relatively sure would not be happening if you actually were family. 12 Gods, you certainly hope so.

I think this current bout is mostly because it's the one year anniverssary of when I fell to pieces just as I actually was sure I'd actually complete NanoWrimo for once and then I managed to fail NanoWrimo again this year and I moved back out here like she'd been begging/cajoling/needling me to do... and things just have kept falling through about seeing her, with the earliest plans we have that I'll go see the choral performance she's doing in December.

Since cutting off much contact and even moving have not seemed to dull the hooks in your heart saying toss her from your life as unhealthy would be folly. You need to let what will be, be. Take what joy you can, watch for oppertunies to be close but don't let her limit where else you can find joy or understanding. Just because she may become single soon doesn't mean you shouldn't start dating someone else. He'll you gave me the run like hell advice about my alcoholic ex a couple years back and so I get why running isn't an option when you can tie yourself up in knots.

I've only really dated, properly, one girl since I met her, but I've been involved with several other women and I've certainly developed feelings for and liked other women other than her/since her. Most of the time it's just been a minorish torch, but there's other times where it's like a fire poker stuck in my side and I feel like I'm going out of my gourd or how I imagine developing psychoses would feel, as it makes me feel like I'm unhinging and my grip on centered, sober reality is weakened.

I think mostly it's myself turning myself into knots that I want to run from most and it's hard to run from one's self. On the one level I know I could just cut off all contact with her and be done with it, especially since I've reached out to her more than she has reached out towards me for keeping in touch

As for letting her know-tricky ain't it? You do you feel like you're trying to manipulate her and risk possibly driving her away with an issue she doesn't want to deal with, but if you don't you are lying by omission in a rather large way and denying her the chance to do anything about it if that is what she wants. And while I don't encourage rash action don't dismiss the last possibility that she wants you to take some sort of action-at it's most extreme I dated a young lady who had gotten married to another man mostly to provoke another friend to either move in on her or become "unavailable" due to her changed status. We are all rationalizing illogical beasts-which while you seem to understand about yourself you can't project an assumption of logical behavior onto others-especially when years of emotion is involved.

Well, she knows that I fell for her from the moment I saw her, as I told her so fairly early on into things. She knows that I have feelings for her and that I was torn up about it. The last time it came up was probably last September or so, which makes it funny because that's when she was going through her breakup that I told her that I was torn up over not being able to get over her. It's mostly that, well, the situation's mostly the same, so what's there to say, really? I desire her and she's with someone and I periodically feel like I'm not actually her friend and just a failed would-be lover that's hung around for far too long. To harp on about that more than once or twice, at most, would be, well, unmanly and pointless and deeply unpleasant for all involved.

I honestly can't remember clearly enough to remember whether her thanking me for respecting her choices enough to not try to steal her from who she had been dating (despite her admitting that the relationship was abusive) actually happened or if it's... a hazy shadow conjured up by whatever's wrong with me, but, well, that's a line I don't really want to cross. I've had issues with cheating in the past and, well, I don't want to ever go anywhere near that kind of behavior again on either end. If she wants me, then, well, she knows(preeeetty sure anyway) how I feel about her and that I'm not going to ask her out while she has a partner, especially not while they're living together.

Sorry to have to be the stick in this totally feces resembling situation.

Oh, no, it's cool, man, no worries. *I* wanna beat myself with a stick about my messed up and misogynistic view of the world and women sometimes.

[rogueboy]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, Crow. I was getting to that point myself, but it's good to hear someone point out how obviously that's the correct answer. I've gotten far too good at convincing myself to not do things because I don't like a possible outcome. I sent her a message this morning, so I'll probably give her a chance to reply to that, but suggest drinks in my next message.

Update for anyone curious: She replied to the above-referenced message, I responded and included a suggestion for drinks on one of a couple days I'm not crazy busy (shortly before Thanksgiving), and we now have plans to grab coffee - currently only a day, but with the expectation of sorting out details when we're closer, since it's a week out from now and schedules are crazy. Yay me for getting off my butt (metaphorically, given that I've been sitting pretty much all day), and thanks Crow for pushing me! And the messages are continuing, at least for the moment, so we'll see how it goes.

Can someone smack me on the head?

I have a store card in our store under my husband's name. It came up while talking with my coworker. He pointed out it's not my name. I simply said that indeed, it wasn't my name.
I should have told him it was my husband's. Make it clear I'm married. I didn't. I didn't him to stop looking at me this way. That was bad, and cowardly, and unfair.
I keep thinking I want him to learn about it when I have a chance to explain that I'm polyamorous. But... saying so is just out of place most of the time. I don't know if I'll get an opportunity like that. I should just be honest and figure it out.

On the other hand, I learned that while the company has a policy against someone dating their direct supervisor, they're pretty good about assigning people to a different project if they start dating so nobody would need to stop working there.

Still, part of me thinks I should go for it and part of me thinks that if he's not actually into me, that could be incredibly inappropriate of me to make advances, and that even if he is into me, we really need to get to know each other better first.

Also, he gave me a cookie today. Nom nom nom cookie.

*smacks Lissou on the head* Go figure out a time to talk to him, about both the husband thing and the polyamory thing. I don't have any specific advice on doing that, just another voice saying you should.

[Crow]

Update for anyone curious: She replied to the above-referenced message, I responded and included a suggestion for drinks on one of a couple days I'm not crazy busy (shortly before Thanksgiving), and we now have plans to grab coffee - currently only a day, but with the expectation of sorting out details when we're closer, since it's a week out from now and schedules are crazy. Yay me for getting off my butt (metaphorically, given that I've been sitting pretty much all day), and thanks Crow for pushing me! And the messages are continuing, at least for the moment, so we'll see how it goes.

Fantastic!

[Chen]

Since this is a Woes and Advice, I thought I'd write some general advice and go through some things. This is not for anyone specific, just some random thoughts.

Spoiler

Show

How to find that dream-girl?
1. Have an active life. Have skills and hobbies that are interesting and appealling to the opposite sex.
I've always wondered why the guys that would have time for women have no women, and why guys who are busy have relationships. Women like guys who do stuff. It only pays to do the right stuff. I'd recommend learning how to dance or speak a new language. Chances are that you will find your new girlfriend that way. It's important have lots of exposure in every possible way. More exposure to people = More chances for that special random encounter.

2. Don't throw oranges away.
My Brazilian friend taught me a very important lesson. We are all lucky to have him, because now I'm going to tell you something important. When you meet the wrong kind of women, no matter how wrong is she, try to get acquainted with her female friends. First you have to make sure that the woman understands that there's no chances for a relationship. After that try looking at her friends. I had this experience that a married woman was trying to approach me, and I was going to let her have it. My friend stopped me and told me about the bad oranges. Many people see a bad orange, and they throw it away. The wise man will take its seed, plant it and grow oranges. So you have to go and grow oranges. Every woman, no matter how bad they are, know one or two decent woman. Try accessing them and get their attention, and don't throw away the bad oranges.

3. Try to find women who appreciate your qualities.
Ok, so you're blond and you have blue eyes, or maybe you have dark hair and brown eyes. Chances are the most men around you look the same as you. This is bad. You have to try get to know women who don't know that many men like you. Imagine a bad singer from Togo. Togolese women understand that he's a bad singer, and he's black like everyone else. They are not interested. That guy should come here. The local women here would love an "exotic and different African man, who often sings in a manner that they've never heard before". Of course there's a long way from Togo to my country, but the point still stands: you have to find your market. The Internet is here to help you with that.

4. Once you do something, you have to do it forever.
Women hate when men change. I don't know why, but it seems that they want to feel secure. When a man changes it makes them feel insecure. That's when you buy them flowers and you stop, it's bad. If you have never bought them flowers and then you start doing that all of a sudden, it's bad. Once you start a relationship, you go in locked-off mode. Positive surprises are welcomed, but when the woman sayd that "You've changed", you have a big, big problem. You can really congratulate yourself if you manage to overcome that problem.

5. She always had a hidden agenda.
Women don't like saying things straight. When she says "maybe", it really means a multitude of things. You will be committing a heinous error if you think that "maybe" just means "maybe". The only word that has no hidden agenda is the magic word "no". This is the best word, because it really means "no", as in "no way, it will not happen". Other than that, you have to use your instinct and guile, especially when she says little. The less she says, the more you have to interpret.

You REALLY need to stop the stereotyping and generalizations. I'm starting to kinda think the problem in these failed relationships may be more on your side than is evident in what you're telling us.

[Jon_Dahl]

You REALLY need to stop the stereotyping and generalizations. I'm starting to kinda think the problem in these failed relationships may be more on your side than is evident in what you're telling us.

That's fine, but I have always told you to the complete and naked truth to the best of my ability. You can think what you want, it's a free world, but it can't be said that I twist the truth or hide something.

[Serpentine]

It can be said that you're wrong, though... And, I'm sorry Jon, but there's an awful lot wrong, or at least not at all useful, there.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I tell you as a woman who has successfully wooed women in the past
You are so wrong it's almost comical

You leave no room for individualism. You seem to ignore that women are also people with unique personalities and that charting them is an exercise in futility